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    MiG-41 New Interceptor:

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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  OminousSpudd on Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:49 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Correct. I just checked and SR-71 top speed is 3,540 km/h while MiG-31 is 3,000 km/h. Not that big of a difference actually.

    I always thought that SR-71 is much faster...

    Looks like that if VKS does go for new interceptor it will really be out of this world.


    EDIT:  Speaking of those two, I just stumbled on this from 2013:

    How the Mig-31 repelled the SR-71 Blackbird from Soviet skies

    https://theaviationist.com/2013/12/11/sr-71-vs-mig-31/
    Curious how the article implies the SR-71 flew within Soviet airspace, considering it did no such thing...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:20 pm

    OminousSpudd wrote:
    Curious how the article implies the SR-71 flew within Soviet airspace, considering it did no such thing...

    Oh that's nothing, you want full retard just check the comment section... lol1
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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  OminousSpudd on Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:32 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:
    Curious how the article implies the SR-71 flew within Soviet airspace, considering it did no such thing...

    Oh that's nothing, you want full retard just check the comment section... lol1
    Oh geez, what cancer. The article was bad enough...
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:38 pm

    The SR-71 has side looking sensors and flew along the border of the Soviet Union most of the time.

    Sometimes due to the shape of the border it will have clipped into Soviet territory for very short periods... not long enough to allow interception and certainly not when Soviet interceptors were around...



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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:The SR-71 has side looking sensors and flew along the border of the Soviet Union most of the time.

    Sometimes due to the shape of the border it will have clipped into Soviet territory for very short periods... not long enough to allow interception and certainly not when Soviet interceptors were around...


    I'm thinking of the annoying neighbourhood kid who pokes his tongue out and steps on your manicured lawn with one foot while you're watching... then when you open the front door the little f*cker runs away giggling... and brags to his idiot buddies that no-one can catch him...
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    kvs

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  kvs on Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:30 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The SR-71 has side looking sensors and flew along the border of the Soviet Union most of the time.

    Sometimes due to the shape of the border it will have clipped into Soviet territory for very short periods... not long enough to allow interception and certainly not when Soviet interceptors were around...


    I'm thinking of the annoying neighbourhood kid who pokes his tongue out and steps on your manicured lawn with one foot while you're watching... then when you open the front door the little f*cker runs away giggling... and brags to his idiot buddies that no-one can catch him...

    Those USSR untermenschen must have had some nice late 1960s and early 1970s SAM systems to keep America's best
    spy plane dancing just outside its borders. Even after the 1990s collapse, Russian development of advanced missiles of
    all types did not stall and nothing was unlearned. American clowns who think that they own humanity's IQ are going to be
    in for a terminal shock when they face Russia's ABM shield.
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:39 am

    I'm thinking of the annoying neighbourhood kid who pokes his tongue out and steps on your manicured lawn with one foot while you're watching... then when you open the front door the little f*cker runs away giggling... and brags to his idiot buddies that no-one can catch him...

    Actually a wee bit more sinister than that...

    Those annoying kids are not from the neighbourhood... they are criminals from a long way away and they are not putting toes on the lawn for giggles... they want to know who responds and how quickly, and where all the exits and entrances are and what sort of responses to expect...

    They aren't neighbour kids being annoying... they are home invaders planning a new attack.

    It creates a situation where nothing is believed to be innocent anymore so even a delivery truck could end up being shot at... simply because the house owners are stressed and have been pushed and pushed...

    Many of these so called recon flights have been made by obsolete bombers like the old Canberra bomber and other types with RB designations... which just makes things worse.


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    BM-21

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  BM-21 on Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:56 pm

    New info on the Mig 41:

    MiG-41

    Perspective long-range intercept aircraft complex (PAC DP), or MiG-41, is being developed to replace the supersonic all-weather interceptor MiG-31 long-range interceptor. As reported by RIA Novosti with reference to the general director of the Russian aircraft-building corporation MiG Ilya Tarasenko, the MiG-41 will be an entirely new aircraft, constructed from a clean slate, rather than a deep modernization of the MiG-31.

    PAK DP will receive the whole arsenal of the latest technologies of combat aviation - it will become even faster, less noticeable, will receive an increased range of flight and, as Tarasenko said at the International Military Technical Forum "Army-2017" in Moscow region Kubinka, work in space. Special attention will be paid to the MiG-41's work in the Arctic, but the most interesting is that later the aircraft will become unmanned.

    The development of a long-range fighter-interceptor is being conducted within the framework of the PAK DP program at the Mikoyan Design Bureau together with the Nizhny Novgorod Design Bureau of the Sokol aircraft plant. The development was started in 2013. A prospective aircraft is planned to be prepared before 2020 and replace it with the MiG-31, the life-span of which expires in 2028, although equal in speed fighter aircraft still does not exist in the world.





    - crappy google translation. Apparently from Ria Novosti. Can't post the link.
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    eehnie

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  eehnie on Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:35 pm

    BM-21 wrote:New info on the Mig 41:

    MiG-41

    Perspective long-range intercept aircraft complex (PAC DP), or MiG-41, is being developed to replace the supersonic all-weather interceptor MiG-31 long-range interceptor. As reported by RIA Novosti with reference to the general director of the Russian aircraft-building corporation MiG Ilya Tarasenko, the MiG-41 will be an entirely new aircraft, constructed from a clean slate, rather than a deep modernization of the MiG-31.

    PAK DP will receive the whole arsenal of the latest technologies of combat aviation - it will become even faster, less noticeable, will receive an increased range of flight and, as Tarasenko said at the International Military Technical Forum "Army-2017" in Moscow region Kubinka, work in space. Special attention will be paid to the MiG-41's work in the Arctic, but the most interesting is that later the aircraft will become unmanned.

    The development of a long-range fighter-interceptor is being conducted within the framework of the PAK DP program at the Mikoyan Design Bureau together with the Nizhny Novgorod Design Bureau of the Sokol aircraft plant. The development was started in 2013. A prospective aircraft is planned to be prepared before 2020 and replace it with the MiG-31, the life-span of which expires in 2028, although equal in speed fighter aircraft still does not exist in the world.





    - crappy google translation. Apparently from Ria Novosti. Can't post the link.

    This is the project where MiG need to focus strongly to work its prestige as aircraft designer and constructor. MiG, need to show its hability for innovation and to produce a technologically advanced aircraft.

    After decades the MiG-25/31 continues being the biggest technological flag of MiG.

    jaguar_br

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  jaguar_br on Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:01 pm

    Russia should negociate buying a production license of the chinese J-20 airframe, improve that, like China did with the project of the Lavi in the development of the J-10, an them, fill it with russian systems, such as AESA radars and optic sensors (like the PAK-FA ones), and a engine based on the Izdeliye-30.

    I think that with little modifications and a more powerful engine, it could reach speeds compatible with that did by MiG-31.

    USA did something like this when they adopted and produced their own version of the british Harrier.


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    BM-21

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  BM-21 on Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:30 am

    eehnie wrote:
    BM-21 wrote:New info on the Mig 41:

    MiG-41

    Perspective long-range intercept aircraft complex (PAC DP), or MiG-41, is being developed to replace the supersonic all-weather interceptor MiG-31 long-range interceptor. As reported by RIA Novosti with reference to the general director of the Russian aircraft-building corporation MiG Ilya Tarasenko, the MiG-41 will be an entirely new aircraft, constructed from a clean slate, rather than a deep modernization of the MiG-31.

    PAK DP will receive the whole arsenal of the latest technologies of combat aviation - it will become even faster, less noticeable, will receive an increased range of flight and, as Tarasenko said at the International Military Technical Forum "Army-2017" in Moscow region Kubinka, work in space. Special attention will be paid to the MiG-41's work in the Arctic, but the most interesting is that later the aircraft will become unmanned.

    The development of a long-range fighter-interceptor is being conducted within the framework of the PAK DP program at the Mikoyan Design Bureau together with the Nizhny Novgorod Design Bureau of the Sokol aircraft plant. The development was started in 2013. A prospective aircraft is planned to be prepared before 2020 and replace it with the MiG-31, the life-span of which expires in 2028, although equal in speed fighter aircraft still does not exist in the world.





    - crappy google translation. Apparently from Ria Novosti. Can't post the link.

    This is the project where MiG need to focus strongly to work its prestige as aircraft designer and constructor. MiG, need to show its hability for innovation and to produce a technologically advanced aircraft.

    After decades the MiG-25/31 continues being the biggest technological flag of MiG.


    Agree. This fighter would solve all of Russia's problems like the upcoming SR-72 and other high altitude, high speed drones. Just like the Mig-31 drove off the SR-71 the Mig-41 should be capable of protecting Russia's airspace from the SR-72. If a prototype comes out before 2020 then this will be huge.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:12 am

    They could probably just advance the MiG-25/31 airframe a bit, modernize it using more composite materials and kind of adjust the intakes a bit and overall shape to make it a stealthy jet, but retaining the main design. This would greatly reduce the price. I think they are already testing out newer equipment for what they may want in it as there is already a MiG-31BM3.
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    BM-21

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  BM-21 on Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:25 am

    That would be more economical and the aircraft would probably have a similar performance to a clean sheat design. However my opinion is that the mig-25 airframe has been already exploited to the maximum. A new airframe would allow them to base next generation aircraft on it just like the Su-57 will serve as a basis for a future fifth plus generation fighter like the Su-27 did. I imagine that many of the technologies developed on the Su-57 would be used in its creation so it wouldn't be as a protracted development as the Su-57 or as expensive. The biggest obstical would be developing mach-4.5 engines.
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:22 am

    Russia should negociate buying a production license of the chinese J-20 airframe

    Not even nearly... that aircraft design is not designed for very high speed flight and would be useless to replace the MiG-31.

    The MiG-31 is much cheaper than it could have been because they chose to use cheaper heavy steel materials instead of much lighter, much more expensive titanium components.As a major exporter of titanium it had nothing to do with lack of availability, it was a design decision.

    Remaking the MiG-31 design with new heat resistant composites would dramatically reduce weight and improve acceleration and flight performance but the top speed was engine limited, not airframe limited.

    I would like to see two directions of development... a from scratch new design will maximise performance and allow new technology to be integrated more efficiently and effectively, but upgrading the MiG-31 with new materials and equipment and systems would be a cheap way of keeping the existing force relevant and state of the art and at the same time an opportunity to test new materials and systems in the real world.

    I rather suspect the comments about operating in space likely refer to an air launched S-500 equivalent that from a ground stationary launch could intercept high altitude targets, but also some low flying satellites. From a mach 2 plus speed 20km or 30km altitude launch its performance should be markedly superior in every way, and of course vastly more mobile.

    They are getting close to put scramjet powered missiles into service (Zircon), so materials and engine technology is driving in that direction... new generational types of radar and engines and a new internal weapon capacity on its own will make it more low observable than the current aircraft, but as most of its operational time will be spent accelerating to full speed and scanning for target with an enormous radar... probably several... stealth wont be priority number one.

    The issues of high speed flight are contained within the two issues of supersonic combustion of fuel and dealing with excess heat.

    Current jet engines have to slow the incoming air to subsonic speeds before burning fuel and generating thrust. A supersonic combustion engine means the air coming in can come in at mach 4 or whatever and be compressed and have fuel added and burned and exit the engine at even higher speeds...


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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:28 pm

    BM-21 wrote:Agree. This fighter would solve all of Russia's problems like the upcoming SR-72 and other high altitude, high speed drones. Just like the Mig-31 drove off the SR-71 the Mig-41 should be capable of protecting Russia's airspace from the SR-72. If a prototype comes out before 2020 then this will be huge.

    The idea of trying to penetrate Russia's air defense systems with high altitude hypersonic manned plane is an archaic idea and doomed to failure. Just like the S-300/S-300V made it unfeasible for the SR-71 to survive in the 80s, the S-500/S-400 will seal Russian airspace against any hypersonic successor. A rapid dive in and out of Russian airspace at the remote periphery may be possible, but an actual real penetration? No chance.
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    BM-21

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  BM-21 on Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:37 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    BM-21 wrote:Agree. This fighter would solve all of Russia's problems like the upcoming SR-72 and other high altitude, high speed drones. Just like the Mig-31 drove off the SR-71 the Mig-41 should be capable of protecting Russia's airspace from the SR-72. If a prototype comes out before 2020 then this will be huge.

    The idea of trying to penetrate Russia's air defense systems with high altitude hypersonic manned plane is an archaic idea and doomed to failure.  Just like the S-300/S-300V made it unfeasible for the SR-71 to survive in the 80s, the S-500/S-400 will seal Russian airspace against any hypersonic successor.  A rapid dive in and out of Russian airspace at the remote periphery may be possible, but an actual real penetration?  No chance.

    It wouldn't be easy to shoot down a high altitude hypersonic target travelling along a ballistic path let alone one able to manoeuvre. This is what a Russian military expert pointed out in an article I read recently. Perhaps the S-500 is the most capable system in it's class in the world and it could probably shoot down the SR-72 but don't forget that such systems are usually positioned deep within a nations borders protecting the capital and key industrious regions. The US could use the aircraft to constantly survey Russia by flying close to the border. I think this is were an aircraft like the Mig-41 would become useful, repelling any attempts to penetrate Russia's border.
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    kvs

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  kvs on Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:56 am

    A manned aircraft is not a nuclear ICBM MARV flying at over 4 km/s. Maneuverable warheads
    coming down at 8 km/s can escape ABMs, but not any aircraft.
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    BM-21

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  BM-21 on Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:10 am

    In the case of the SR-72 it will be an unmanned aircraft flying at a maximum speed of 2km/s. At that speed it would still probaby fly in a fairly straight line however I doubt that it would fly close to ABM sites. It would probably fly along Russia's borders. I understand that the idea of penetrating Russia's airspace with such a plane is fantasy. The Mig-41 would be perfect for protecting Russia's borders and escorting foreign aircraft. Its high speed and quick reaction time would make it a perfect interceptor.
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    eehnie

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  eehnie on Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:09 am

    BM-21 wrote:In the case of the SR-72 it will be an unmanned aircraft flying at a maximum speed of 2km/s. At that speed it would still probaby fly in a fairly straight line however I doubt that it would fly close to ABM sites. It would probably fly along Russia's borders. I understand that the idea of penetrating Russia's airspace with such a plane is fantasy. The Mig-41 would be perfect for protecting Russia's borders and escorting foreign aircraft. Its high speed and quick reaction time would make it a perfect interceptor.

    The A-235 seems being designed as mobile. It is a great advantage from this point.

    Also unmanned aircrafts will be very likely shut-down when they enter the air space of Russia. The model of interception and escort outside is only for manned aircrafts. The SR-72 will face very likely also Air-Air missiles.
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    ZoA

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  ZoA on Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:15 pm

    You people are to worried about SR-72. In all likelihood that thing will newer enter operational service, and if it miraculously does number of units produced will be well in to single digits.

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:53 pm

    The SR-72 is likely nothing but an overly hyped vapourware project. A Mach 6 manned aircraft? What tech demonstrators give any indication that the US can build a scramjet to power such a aircraft?
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:03 am

    With people on board it will be g limited, so lets be very generous and suggest it can perform 5 g turns... at mach 6 that would mean its turning performance would be worse than the turning ability of the SR-71... which when travelling at top speed could not turn 180 degrees inside the area of the state of California.

    Mach 6 is not even that fast... old model S-300PMU1 SAMs can engage targets flying at 2.8km per second.... that means mach 8.75.

    S-400 can defeat targets moving at 4.8km/s and the S-500 can engage targets moving at more than 7km/s.


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