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    Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

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    USAF

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    Re: Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

    Post  USAF on Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:20 am

    GarryB wrote: being on the payroll of western media outlets to show things are worse in Russia than the west is his job and he earns his money.


    Or even the payroll of certain intelligence agencies....
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    GarryB

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    Re: Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:31 am

    Nice to chat to someone who has an understanding of how the world works. Smile

    The number of kids I talk to on the internet who think wars get won by the good guys because they are right is quite frankly sickening.

    I blame the western movie industry, Disney was one of the worst for turning reality on its head. Almost every Disney cartoon consists of a battle between natural enemies... hunters and rabbits, dogs and cats, cats and mice, cats and birds, coyote and road runner, wolf and sheepdog, rooster and dog, duck and hunter.
    In every case it was the natural underdog, or natural loser in each conflict that won every time.
    Fine for entertainment... a bit of relief from the real world, but very poor preparation for children to grow up and have a reasonable understanding of the world.

    As Winston Churchill said... History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it myself... and he did. Unfortunately people in the west are happy to hear about how wonderful the west is and how evil any alternative might be.
    Look at the history we learn... the Germans were evil in WWI and WWII but now it is just the Russians that are evil... along with terrorists, who are the new commies.
    NATO is good and the west is good.
    Yet it was large military power blocks that caused Europe to get dragged in to WWI and nothing to do with how evil the Germans were.
    The main losers in terms of blame and loss of territory were Russia and Germany. The Middle East map was completely rewritten as was the world map as the remaining colonial powers rushed to absorb the now free ex-german colonies... even the US took part with the German part of Samoa becoming American Samoa. German colonies in Africa also changed hands as a punishment for being the main power on the wrong side.
    In the west WWII starts with the invasion of Poland and ends when Japan is defeated, but for many Germans WWII started because of the end of WWI. For the people of Austria or Czechoslovakia or China or Finland, the start date is different.

    Ahh, well... rant over... we have plenty of time to solve the worlds problems... as seen from the bottom of the world.. Very Happy
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    USAF

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    Re: Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

    Post  USAF on Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:15 am

    I have been to 23 countries at last count to include 2 during wartime. I have seen the “other points of view” and understand why the west is not popular with some of the world. I have had “evening tea” with an Iraqi family, Vodka Romana in Tuzla, and talked with people everywhere I go. Not all reception has been good. Some will stay with me until I die. I find that no matter where you go, the majority of people are just like me. This includes every state I have visited here in the USA. We all seem to just want a clean, safe, healthy place to raise a family with a quality of life. People want to have pride in themselves and their culture.

    The slander goes both ways. Many people are taught and misguided about the “others” by the “elite”. The evil Japanese and Germans of WWII, the evil Russians of the cold war, and also the “Great Satan” of America are some examples. Honestly, most people would get along if we all could see the “other side” for what it really is. I tell you one country that has no hope in this world and that is New Zealand. That place is a rotten no man’s land of filth and sin. I’m just kidding Garry.

    I would love to visit New Zealand. But first I need to see that Monino Air Museum. Like I said in my Hello to everyone I am a huge aviation fan. I love to see how the Russian military designers have differed from the US designs I know so well. I did get a chance to check out some Luftwaffe Mig 29’s during an Air Warrior exercise at Nellis AFB. Cool stuff. In return, the Germans came over to check out our Block 52 F-16s. We had a good time telling each other what junk the other guy’s aircraft was. It was harmless really. I am very interest in the larger aircraft though like bombers and transports and how about that Ekranoplan, how cool is that? Anyway, Take care Garry.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:13 am

    I tell you one country that has no hope in this world and that is New Zealand. That place is a rotten no man’s land of filth and sin.

    Damn... don't let out the secret that the only real footage of New Zealand in the Lord of the Rings movie were the scenes in Mordor... Very Happy

    I agree that most people round the place are basically similar, though they often have different senses of right and wrong, and what is OK and what is not most people want stability and order and peace first. Once you have that then you can use tools like education and a good health system and build a happy life.

    The main problem is that international communication and interaction has been through governments... they say Sh!t floats and the government is the top of every bottle that is a country.

    I like aviation because of its progress. It is amazing, whether you credit the first flight with the Wright brothers or someone else (strong feeling in NZ that a kiwi called Richard Pierce managed to do it first, but then we are a bit arrogant like that and also think Earnest Rutherford who first split the atom was a Kiwi, as was Sir Keith Park who is largely credited with saving Britain in the Battle of Britain, and of course some Kiwis even credit the first guy to reach the summit of Everest as being a Kiwi too in the form of Sir Edmond Hilary), though of course all such feats are really team efforts based on the people around you and work that was done before.
    Still find it amazing that the first heavier than air aircraft flew within the lifespan of the first man to leave the atmosphere. Big steps indeed.

    Regards
    Garry
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    NationalRus

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    Russia to buy 10 billion € in foreign arms by 2016

    Post  NationalRus on Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:25 pm

    The Russian Defense Ministry may spend up to 10 billion euros on European and Israeli weaponry in the next five or six years, Russian daily Vedomosti reported on Tuesday.

    An investigation carried out by military experts from Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies estimated foreign purchases of weaponry for Russian Armed Forces over the next two years at some 4 billion euros.

    This sum includes four major deals.

    * the discussed acquisition of four Mistral-class helicopter carriers from the French naval shipbuilder DCNS estimated at 1.5 billion euros.

    * a 1.5 billion-euro contract to be concluded with Italian company Iveco on the assembly of 3,000 Light Multirole Vehicle (LMV) armored vehicles at the Russian Kamaz plant

    * an expected contract with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) on licensed production of three models of unmanned aerial vehicles - I-View MK150 short range aircraft, Searcher II short-range drones and Heron long-range drones - which the experts said could be worth up to $300 million

    * a 300 million-euro deal with France's Thales and Safran groups on supplies of additional lots for assembling thermal imaging systems and aircraft targeting containers

    To bring the half-decade total up to 10 billion euros, the think tank experts included the possible joint development and procurement of warships from DCNS, armored vehicles from French and German firms as well as military electronics from Israel, Vedomosti reported.

    Despite beginning to import weaponry from Western countries in significant volumes, Russia will also remain a large-scale exporter of weapons. In 2009, deliveries to foreign customers were worth $8.5 billion.

    However, Igor Korotchenko, head of Center for Analysis of Global Arms Trade think tank, said arms imports were not likely to exceed 2.5-3 billion euros over the next five or six years, as the issue remains politically sensitive in Russia and depends both on relations with exporting countries and environment at 2011-2012 political election.

    The Russian government is caught between the need to modernize its military and to support its defense sector, which lacks the capacity to fulfill the army's needs after years of underinvestment.

    MOSCOW, June 15 (RIA Novosti)
    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100615/159428123.html
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:12 pm

    We have already spent a billion dollars on French items.
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    NationalRus

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    Re: Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

    Post  NationalRus on Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:27 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:We have already spent a billion dollars on French items.
    what specialy is already bought for 1 bilion?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:00 am

    Just setting up production facilities for the Catherine and ESSM thermal imagers to go on Russian tanks and armoured vehicles will cost a large fraction of a billion dollars.

    The problem with upgrading to state of the art is that it is very expensive.

    The good thing about upgrading to state of the art is that despite it being spent on foreign items they will largely be made in Russia so that will be good for the Russian economy... especially in the case of the deal with Thales of France where some were bought that were made in France and the rest will be made in Russia but in the future if a third country wants French thermal imagers they can buy Russian made models that are cheaper than French made ones and the French company will be party to the agreement and get a cut, so they get their products made cheaper than they could make them and they will probably get access to markets that they otherwise would not be able to sell on anyway.

    For example if Iran came to Russia and asked if it could buy some Flankers to replace its last remaining F-14s and it wants external pod mounted systems like Damocles or the Russian Sapsan or Sollux or the simpler Platan that might include French parts then it is easier to put in French designed Russian made parts than to actually get France involved directly. The French still make money (though if they really didn't want Iran to have their tech they certainly could veto the sale of French designed licence produced parts if they wanted to) Iran gets new planes and Russia sells some more weapons. The US and UK will complain of course, which is rather hypocritical because Iran has mostly western equipment anyway, with F-4s and F-14s and HAWK SAMs and various other bits and pieces.
    One huge irony is that the British Challanger tank had its development paid for by the Shah of Iran, if he hadn't ordered such a tank then the Abrams probably wouldn't have gotten its Chobham armour and certainly the British would not have had a decent tank during the 1980s.

    There will be stuff the Russians design and make that is good enough, there will be stuff the Russians make that is not good enough and foreign stuff that is available that is better and there is stuff that the Russians make that is not good enough and the foreign stuff is not for export.

    The solution is to buy the stuff the Russians make that is good to add money to that sector and keep it healthy, buy the stuff Russian stuff is behind in and licence produce it in Russia to get Russian stuff up to speed, and for the stuff you can't get... well that is what industrial espionage is for isn't it?
    Either that or a bit of investment.

    BTW to that list above you would have to add the cost of eventually up to 100 or so An-70s too as imports.

    milliirthomas

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    If foreign equipment is the key to increasing Russia's military strength then Russia shoud go foreign.

    Post  milliirthomas on Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:07 pm

    Russian Defense Ministry may spend up to 10 billion euros on European and Israeli weaponry in the next five or six years, Russian daily Vedomosti reported.
    An investigation carried out by military experts from Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies estimated foreign purchases of weaponry for Russian Armed Forces over the next two years at some 4 billion euros.

    Austin

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    Re: Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:56 am

    An interesting interview on how inferior Western equipment are being imported in the guise of imports.

    Vest in a billion: Open letter to the leaders of the Russian defense led by Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov

    Putin warning is timely and appropriate on not to overspend on imports.
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    medo

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    Re: Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

    Post  medo on Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:10 pm

    An interesting interview on how inferior Western equipment are being imported in the guise of imports.

    Vest in a billion: Open letter to the leaders of the Russian defense led by Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov

    Putin warning is timely and appropriate on not to overspend on imports.

    I agree with Putin here. It's not vise to become dependent on imports of any kind.
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    GarryB

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    France and Germany are establishing a closer military co-operation with Russia

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:12 am

    France and Germany are establishing a closer military co-operation with Russia
    2011-06-29 | Andrzej Wilk

    Russia and France on 17 June signed a contract for the construction of two Mistral class helicopter carriers for the Russian Navy. On the same day, in the shade of the Russian-French agreement, a Russian-German deal on building a modern combat training centre was struck. The centre will be based on the Russian army’s training ground in Mulino near Moscow, which is the largest in Europe. While the contract of sale of the French ships to Russia – which has been commented on by the press worldwide from the very beginning – is mainly of political significance and bears no significant impact on the condition of the Russian fleet, the implementation of the Russian-German deal – which has not been given any publicity – will fundamentally improve the combat capacity of the Russian armed forces.



    France is selling helicopter carriers to Russia

    Negotiations concerning Russia’s purchase of Mistral class ships from France, which are capable of transporting an equipped battalion (units of this class are capable of transporting 40 tanks, 450 soldiers and 16 heavy helicopters) started in November 2009. The purchase of the amphibious assault carriers – the first ones in its fleet – was not most important for Russia since they are not sufficiently grounded from the point of view of the navy use doctrine (this has been confirmed by contradictory Russian reports on the future allocation of the units and their tasks). What was most important were the modern command and communication systems which the ships are equipped with. One proof for the fact that Russian demands regarding the electronic equipment of the ships have been satisfied at least partly (contrary to the reservations which have been voiced also in France) was the concern expressed by the French Defence Ministry, which has announced it will examine the details of this contract. This may mean that the ship equipment issues will still be a subject of complicated negotiations.
    Finally, the parties reached an agreement on building two ships in France in co-operation with Russian companies (they will supply for example elements of the hull and the ship-borne attack helicopters); the estimated value of the contract is 1.2 billion euros. The ships will be built by the French-Russian DCNS-OSK shipbuilding consortium, which has been established specially for this purpose. The shares of Russian shipbuilders in the construction of the first two ships at the French Saint-Nazaire shipyard will reach 20% and 40% respectively. The first Mistral class ship for Russia is to be ready in late 2013/early 2014, and the second one is expected one year later. The option of building a further two such units, which has been announced in Russia on numerous occasions, appears purely hypothetical at the moment. The Russian armament programme by 2020 allocates no funds for the purchase of more Mistral ships. However, it is worth noting that on 17 June Russia signed one more contract with the French-Korean shipbuilding corporation, STX (the owner of DCNS), which provides for the construction of a shipway to be used for the construction of large combat ships at the Admiralteyskaya Verf shipyard in Saint Petersburg. It is likely to be used by Russia to build completely different units for the Russian navy, for example a new aircraft carrier, which is currently being designed.


    Germany is building a modern combat training centre for the Russian army

    The creation of a Russian new-generation combat training centre in co-operation with Germany is one of the key elements of the Russian army’s modernisation process. The centre is to enable comprehensive training – both with the use of 3D simulators and in training ground conditions – for an expanded tactical formation (brigade), including an exercise engagementbetween two brigades. This will be the first facility of this kind in the Russian army (very few Western armies have similar training centres) and will change fundamentally the way and the nature of the training of the Russian ground forces as well as the air forces and airborne forces which co-operate with them. The centre will enable the Russian army to shorten and improve the security of the training process, to evaluate more precisely the level achieved by the trained units and to substantially cut expenses.
    Progress in the work on the creation of this centre is unusually rapid; the decision to create it in co-operation with Germany was made in December 2010, the Russian Defence Ministry and Germany’s Rheinmetall company signed a contract to design the centre in February 2011 and an agreement on 17 June envisaging the centre’s construction by 2013, when it is expected to commence its training activity (the centre is to reach complete readiness in 2014). The estimated value of the contract is 280 million euros, which includes simulators ordered by the Russian army in Germany, the same as those used at the Bundeswehr training centres. However, the nature of this co-operation is not strictly commercial; as progress in the implementation of the project to construct the centre is made, co-operation is being intensified between the Russian armed forces and the German army (they signed a memorandum of co-operation in the training of officers and non-commissioned officers in February this year), and the contracts are preceded by talks between senior officials representing the defence ministries of the two countries. According to some Russian sources, the Mulino combat training centre is also to be used in future by the Bundeswehr, which does not have such a large facility.


    Conclusion

    The deals with France and Germany constitute a small part of the Russian army’s modernisation programme currently underway. They confirm, however, that the Russian defence sector is still backward in selected areas, mainly those involving electronics, in comparison to the arms industries of the leading Western countries. On the other hand, the deals are a sign of regularly increasing Russian expenditure on military purposes, which are currently close to 3% of the country’s GDP. The Russian Federation intends to spend some 500 billion euros on the development and purchase of weapons and military equipment by 2020.
    It is worth noting the level of publicity the two deals have been given; the press has devoted a large amount of attention to the talks on the purchase of the French ships by Russia since their commencement, and some countries which believe that the Russian army poses a potential threat to them (mainly Estonia and Georgia) have also protested against the possibility this contract being signed. In turn, the German-Russian co-operation on the building of the combat training centre has never been an issue discussed in the press. In Germany this is a taboo subject like the previous signs of the Bundeswehr’s military co-operation with the Russian armed forces (for example, during the putting into orbit of a group of German military satellites).
    The two contracts clearly show the differences in the approaches of France and Germany to military co-operation with Russia. In the case of Paris this co-operation is mainly of a business and political nature, while Berlin is focusing on the business and military aspects which in future may offer benefits to both parties – regardless of the training co-operation between the Russian Armed Forces and the Bundeswehr, German firms are counting on more contracts linked to the technical modernisation of the Russian army. This is the reason why the process of reaching agreement and consequently the levels of publicity given to those two deals in the press worldwide have been different.

    Andrzej Wilk, co-operation Piotr Żochowski


    Copyright © 1996-2011 OSW | Centre for Eastern Studies | ul. Koszykowa 6A, 00-564 Warszawa, Poland | phone: (+48 22) 525 80 00 | fax: (+48 22) 525 80 40 | e-mail: info@osw.waw.pl

    Source: http://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/eastweek/2011-06-29/france-and-germany-are-establishing-a-closer-military-cooperation-rus

    Pervius

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    Re: Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

    Post  Pervius on Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:52 pm

    Russia buying a training simulator from Germany?

    Oh that will end well. The Stuxnet virus that hit the IRanian reactor targeted the German components.

    That simulator could end up taking down Russia's networks....give others an eye to see how Russian Commanders plan to act in war.

    What a stupid purchase. Russia could have made it's own training simulator...reach out and get some of those unemployed Chinese code writers..hire them to make it in Russia...then just kill them when it's done. Very cheap to make things this way. And keep security.

    So Russian Army soldier should not act as they train. Do what's not expected because the other side already knows what you will do.
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    GarryB

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    France and Germany are establishing a closer military co-operation with Russia

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:06 am

    It is a training simulator... there is no need to connect it to the air defence network or any other military network.

    They can put trojans and viruses and bugs all through the system... it wont matter.

    Most of the software can be rewritten anyway... the Russians have plenty of computer simulation game programmers and they can write the software to suit the hardware being attached to the system.

    I rather doubt the Russians will want to share military technical performance data with Germany so they can program the system to accurately simulate the performance of certain hardware.

    I think this is a brilliant purchase for Russia that will allow two brigade sized formations train and practise without burning fuel, wearing out tanks, or using expensive new guided ammo. It will allow them to train from individual vehicles or weapon stations (ie manpads and ATGMs teams) right up to armoured units and entire brigades against entire brigades.

    Performance can be monitored and checked and recorded for later analysis, and new weapons and command and control systems can be tested without needing the actual hardware in service.

    They can develop new hardware and create simulators for it and test it with the simulator for ease of use before a test deployment to check to make sure the users are using it as intended (remember all training is recorded and can be reviewed and analysed).
    They can also train on any terrain in any conditions day or night and any weather, without threat of cancellation or frostbite cases.
    They can recreate scenarios to test forces to be sent into places like the Caucuses.

    Most NATO countries don't have this simulation capability...

    ...and the US is grumpy about Russia buying 4 helicopter carriers from France!

    The point is that once they have bought this simulator it can be used as a model for future Russian designed and made simulators with Russian code, Russian military symbology and Russian hardware.

    This system will need replacing or seriously upgrading in 2015 anyway because of the new hardware that will be entering service will require all new hardware simulators developed so that will be a good opportunity to upgrade the electronic hardware and software too.

    I am so incredibly jealous that new Russian recruits will get a chance to play the ultimate LAN games, before using the real thing in real exercises. pirat

    Austin

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    Re: Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

    Post  Austin on Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:01 am

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    GarryB

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    Re: Purchases of Foreign military equipment: Positives & Negatives

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:39 am

    I rather suspect the Russians will try to buy the licence to operate this training system on their own and evolve the capability of updating it themselves.

    They will have a lot of new systems coming on line in the 2013-2015 time period and I doubt they will want to hand over fairly detailed information needed to simulate these items and vehicles to Germany... no matter how friendly they are.

    BTW your article had something more than my posts... it has dates and deadlines.

    From what I have read this system can be used to train individual soldiers on individual pieces of kit, like rifles, grenade launchers and missile systems, right up through vehicles with full crews, missile batteries with multiple vehicles, to a full Brigade all working together.

    More than just a training tool, as mentioned in the article, this will enable developers of systems to see how their systems interact on a real (simulated) battlefield.

    It will be a good way to train commanders and individual soldiers to use new assets like UAVs, from divisional UAVs down to hand launched systems at unit level just as one example.

    Experience in operating in different terrain without burning fuel or using ammo or wearing out vehicles will be useful... but I can see each military district wanting their own system.

    I assume each system can simulate all the brigade types, including artillery and other specialised units.

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