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    Fate of Russia's old birds.

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    KomissarBojanchev
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    Any upgraded MiG-23s proposed for export?

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:07 pm

    I wonder if any upgraded MiG-23s were conceptualized to carry more modern weapons and electronics. The MiG-23MLD was quite capable for its time and would be a good modern day ligh fighter if it could carry an AESA radar guided A2G munitions and modern AAMs like the RVV-MD and RVV-SD.

    BTW I'm still highly fascinated why there are so many nations today that still use the MiG-21bis yet no nation still uses the more capable MiG-23s.

    TR1
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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:50 pm

    MiG-23-98.


    sepheronx
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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:46 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I wonder if any upgraded MiG-23s were conceptualized to carry more modern weapons and electronics. The MiG-23MLD was quite capable for its time and would be a good modern day ligh fighter if it could carry an AESA radar guided A2G munitions and modern AAMs like the RVV-MD and RVV-SD.

    BTW I'm still highly fascinated why there are so many nations today that still use the MiG-21bis yet no nation still uses the more capable MiG-23s.

    Last I heard, is that MiG-23's were expensive to field and they were not in numbers in many airforces like the MiG-21 was. MiG-23 does indeed have a lot of potential and if Zhuk-A was offered with it, it could find a lot of homes. But, the aircrafts are old and everyone would rather have a jet with a new airframe, which is best imo.

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:51 am

    The Mig-23 was an impressive performer when it came to acceleration, yet it had good range and handling thanks to its swing wing design.

    The swing wing design however added complication and weight, so you don't see modern fighters with swing wings... they have more sophisticated wing designs that allow low take off speeds and high flight speeds.

    The Mig-23-98 is probably the most sophisticated upgrade available which added R-77 and R-73 missiles and a self defence suite.

    The problem with upgrades is how far do you go before it actually makes more sense just to buy a newer aircraft.

    A Mig-29M2 is not super expensive and has plenty of future growth potential as well, while second hand Mig-29s are available with a modest SMT upgrade could give you the new plane you want with the features you want when you can afford them.

    For a country that currently operates both Mig-23s and Mig-27s an upgrade to unify the design and allow fully multirole capability makes sense... but then a Mig-29SMT can also replace both aircraft with lower operational costs.


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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:39 am

    AFAIK, the only relatively recent MiG-23 upgrades were Angolan and Syrian MiG-23ML to a standard roughly similar to the MLD version in the early 2000's. The upgrade might have included some components from the MiG-23-98 project.

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    Mi-2 your views?

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:00 am

    Hi all, was looking to get peoples view on the MI-2 helicopter. With UAV's now becoming more popular and with increasing abilities, does the MI-2 still have use? espiecally with many still in service or will its role get down graded like the Gazelle helicopter did in the British Army to be used to fly generals around?????? (the gazelle has now been totally withdrawn from UK forces). The MI-2 does have weapon capability but lacks armour and modern systems. I suppose it could still be used as an air ambulance. Someone on another forum some time ago suggested insertion of special forces, but i think this would be more suited to the HIND-35M given its armanent and armour aswell as night time capability and GLONASS.

    any views welcome

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:01 am

    The Mi-2 is largely used for recon now and light transport... both roles likely being replaced by Ka-52 and Ka-226T/Ka-62/Mi-34 etc.

    The Mi-2 is still a useful helo, but as it was not made in the Soviet Union... it was only ever made in Poland, though cheap upgrades and servicing was offered by Russian companies to keep them operational.


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    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:45 am

    hi garry, thanks for the input, i know Poland still produce it, i wasnt sure if they still used them as much considering you never really much about them and with UAV now becoming the prefered recce equipment and in some cases prefered weapon platform. DO you know of any operational history of the MI-2???????

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  TR1 on Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:46 am

    I've flown on one.

    Was young and really hated the experience lol.

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:57 am

    TR1 wrote:I've flown on one.

    Was young and really hated the experience lol.


    lucky u wish i had a chance, ive only ever been on westland wessex, puma, lynx, chinook, all while i was serving, would prefer russian heli's.

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  TR1 on Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:05 am

    Wow, that is quite the list.
    I have never even been on good old Mi-8.

    Mi-2, Yak-18T, Yak-52, An-2....I think that is it for the non-commercial guys. All @ Borki airport in Russia, where among other things the aerobatic team often trains.

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:50 am

    TR1 wrote:Wow, that is quite the list.
    I have never even been on good old Mi-8.

    Mi-2, Yak-18T, Yak-52, An-2....I think that is it for the non-commercial guys. All @ Borki airport in Russia, where among other things the aerobatic team often trains.

    AN-2 Smile really like this would be great to fly on one. Would love to fly in a MI-24 HIND and a MI-26 Smile

    GarryB
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    Mi-2 your views?

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:23 am

    I suspect many of the roles the Mi-2 performed are now being performed by ANSAT helos, the old Mi-2 was fairly manouverable for a helo and was used in at least one aerobatic flight team from memory.


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    MIG 25 and MIG 23 old birds still in service

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:59 am

    Hi all.

    With a announcement from Azerbaijan armed forces saying that they are to upgrade its MIG 25's comes as alittle surprise due to the age of the aircraft, and most recce roles now being carried out by drones/UAV's. I was wondering what peoples views are on the usefulness of the MIG 25 in both recce role and interceptor??? as MIG 31 and SU-27 Flankers, aswell as UAV's can carry out both roles. Does it makes sense to upgrade?

    Another old time aircraft is the MIG 23 Flogger which is still in service with some countries and has had some upgrades, the last production models i believe were the MiG-23MLD Flogger-K. The aircraft is mostly in service with poorer nations like Cuba, North Korea, and African countries, they are also still in service in decent numbers in Syria. But does this age old aircraft still have a use of should it be put to bed and more modern aircraft be bought or maybe even an upgrade???? and views or info would be great.

    KomissarBojanchev
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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:58 am

    Theres the Mig-23-98 upgrade that makes it carry better missiles and radar but unfortunately it hasn't seen any commercial popularity.

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:34 am

    Theres the Mig-23-98 upgrade that makes it carry better missiles and radar but unfortunately it hasn't seen any commercial popularity.

    I suspect the main thing that killed the upgrades of older model Soviet aircraft was that many were not taken up by the Russians themselves.

    Most nations that operate Mig-23s could increase their performance by applying varying upgrades with different financial costs and operational benefits, but at the end of the day it would often be much cheaper just to buy an old model simple Mig-29 with a very basic upgrade and in maybe 5 or ten years time apply a more substantial upgrade to them to make them comparable to a Mig-29M. In ten years time the technology will be cheaper yet they will likely be upgraded to something that is fully multirole and apart from the lack of stealth be fully capable of doing anything a modern western fighter could do... especially if they buy new model deadly air to air missiles with them like the R-74 and improved model R-77s.

    The recon Mig-25 is still in service in Russia AFAIK because it is a cheap and simple SR-71. Not as fast as an SR-71 but fast enough and with side looking sensors can fly along borders and look over from international air space and cover large areas very quickly.

    An upgrade would make it cheaper and simpler to operate as well as improve performance.

    The US had a few problems dealing with Iraqi Mig-25s simply because of their speed.

    It is important to remember that while modern fighters have labels that say mach 2.3 or mach 2.4 the vast majority of such fighters will never reach such speeds in their operational life times.

    The Mig-25 and Mig-31 routinely fly at top speeds because of their missions of recce an interceptor respectively.

    Upgrading the old model planes makes sense if you have a lot still in service and already have the infrastructure and trained personel to operate them.


    If I was buying new I would go with a simplified Mig-29M with the intention of applying upgrades later on to Mig-35 level.

    Equipping them with modern capable missiles is very expensive and it is where I would spend most of my money.

    It makes more sense having a fleet of 150 Mig-29Ms with the best missiles money can buy than a fleet of Mig-35s and second rate missiles or AAMs only because you spent the budget on the aircraft themselves.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:12 pm

    Hi thanks for the replies. I never knew about the MIG 23-98 upgrade.

    I am a bit of a fan of the MIG 29SMT, SU 30MK, and SU 25SM, aircraft.  I think these would be great aircraft to have in any force and would cover the the needs/roles without breaking the bank too much. And as for the SU 25 SM theres a decent number in service that could be upgraded, these could also be be backed up with MI-35 to give ground forces a great deal of support. the MIG 29SMT and SU 30MK would cover the other fixed wing roles. SU-27 would be nice but this could be pushing it a bit.

    anyway back to the topic.

    Your right gary, older aircraft with some upgrades, and some really upto date missles and you have deadly airforce, without splashing out on expensive new aircraft, maintenance, maintenance equipment, and a whole new training package on flying and how to maintain, as well as new spares.

    As for the MIG 25, i understand that the Russians have upgraded ones to MIG 25RB which can be used for bombing as well as recce and interceptor, (correct me if i am wrong). But are mostly used for recce roles.

    But how does the the MIG 25 compare to a modern interceptor role??? can it still be usefull in this role???

    I think as far as drones go, they have there uses, but i think the MIG-25 has more advantages than the normal drones out there, faster speed being one. But are drones cheaper to operate/maintain and of course u still have to buy them.

    another aircraft worthly of mentioning that is an old soviet bird thats still in service is the SU-22 fitter, still in service in decent numbers with Syria, Poland, Vietnam, Yemen, and Angola. This has had numerous upgrades over the years and that the Polish airforce plan to keep around 16 of theres intil 2026 as attack aircraft, pretty impressive considering the age of the aircraft.


    Last edited by d_taddei2 on Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

    medo
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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  medo on Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:40 pm

    Considering, that there are still sales of upgraded and modernized F-5 and Kfirs, modernized Mig-23 could still get a market in poorer states. Mig-23 MLD were produced in eighties up to 1984 and retired in nineties, when Russia decided to use only twin engined planes, so they have less than 10 years of active use and still better airframe conditions than worn out Kfirs, which were active for decades. There are still enough spare engines for them with 0 hours. With new radar and ESM equipment it could still work well for poorer countries.

    I think MiG and RuAF could better market them to countries, which could not buy Mig-29SMT or Su-30.

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    what will Russia do with its L-39's

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:26 pm

    Hi all, with the Russia now receving the Yak 130 and the number increasing fairly quickly, what will Russia do with its fleet of roughly 200 L-39's?????

    Depending on the state of them they could be sold or given to poorer nations, or some put into reserve and the rest scrapped. I suppose they could also be used for various tests like unmanned aircraft tests, and target tests.

    Whats people views on this? has anyone heard any news on this?

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  Giulio on Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:42 pm

    The withdrawal of the last Mig-25s?
    https://medium.com/war-is-boring/21d12739b5db

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:22 am

    David Axe is a horrible journalist btw.

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:42 am

    TR1 wrote:David Axe is a horrible journalist btw.

    Horrible is to mild for some of his nonsense articles.

    And congratz to your Level Up.  Very Happy 

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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:36 am

    Ty ty.

    OT, but thinking about the forum- we should have a top banner competition. THe current one, while decent, looks a bit funky in certain places.

    sheytanelkebir
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    Re: Fate of Russia's old birds.

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:46 pm

    de militarise them and sell them to enthusiasts. setup a service and maintenance company in the US to offer after market service and rent-by-hour service

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:27 pm

    hi all does anyone know if this david axe report is true or not, i havent read anything of his but it seems people on here dont like him very much? is he anti russian?

    I would like to think that Russia still uses them, seems pretty crazy to get rid of them when u dont have a replacement

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