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    Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

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    sepheronx
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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:14 am

    par far wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Or shorter version: Armenian Military was sitting on it's ass and did not fire a single bullet in Azeri direction. You can't expect others to fight your war without being willing to fight yourself.

    Nagorny Karabakh Conflict: 3:1 in Azerbaijan's Favor

    Baku managed to drive a wedge between Armenia and Russia


    http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/nagorny-karabakh-conflict-31-azerbaijan/ri13890

    Originally appeared at Vzglyad – Russian online magazine. Translated by Julia Rakhmetova and Rhod Mackenzie

    The author is a well-known political analyst and expert on the Caucasus


    Another flare-up of the conflict in the Nagorny Karabakh is over.  But this one differed radically from the previous ones. During both non-military and military confrontations, the initiative generally belonged to Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia, and they managed to maintain the status quo: this time it’s Azerbaijan that scores.

    First of all, it’s obvious that the main goal in restarting the conflict wasn’t to start a war as such but to update it and attract international attention, showing that the Karabakh conflict wasn’t over. And given the international resonance the flare-up received, Baku scored impressively.

    Secondly, the power demonstrated by the Azeri army in this short conflict that was not intended to become a full-scale war, was a surprise to everyone, and the results differ drastically from what we’ve seen before.

    Recently during what was probably the most active post-war phase of the conflict, in summer 2014, the Azeri army faced the first defense line of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, but now its troops quickly broke through the two defense lines after taking seven strong points and settlements that Armenians had held for twenty years.

    We can’t say the Azeris dominated on the battlefield, losing many tanks, but in general the action was a surprise. The Karabakh had seemed an unassailable fortress, a perfect engineering feat, but we now can’t be sure about that anymore.

    Finally, Baku succeeded in driving a wedge between Armenia on the one hand, and Russia and the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) on the other. Remember that despite the popular myth that Armenia can defend itself in Nagorny Karabakh, the status quo doctrine for Armenia was always based on the neutralization of Azerbaijan with the help of Moscow and the CSTO freely arming Armenia, while refusing to deliver arms to it and exerting diplomatic and other pressure on Baku, transferring the Karabakh conflict to Armenia’s territory to force both Russia and the CSTO to get involved.

    Today the situation shows that none of that worked: the blockade of arms deliveries to Baku failed completely, neither Russia, nor anyone else opted for Armenia, at best pursuing a policy of equidistance.

    This resulted in semi-panic and semi-hysterics in the Armenian media, cursing President Putin and claiming Russia had betrayed Armenia before, and it could join the US.


    The one considerable drawback for Baku is that much of the international community believes it started the conflict. However, under the current circumstances, that is not very important and for a series of reasons doesn’t imply any urgent threat.

    The fact that Armenia is losing confidence in Moscow and CSTO’s ability to help it solve the Karabakh conflict, straining relations with its allies, benefits Azerbaijan, and this is a serious achievement.

    The fact that the international community sees it as the aggressor is not crucial, making it a  3:1.


    This is not good, Russia needs to do something, the US is doing everything to escalate this situation.

    https://southfront.org/international-military-review-analysis-studying-escalation-in-nagorno-karabakh/



    There is a general issue with the articles though.

    Karabakh isn't recognized by Russia nor nearly anyone else besides Armenia and a few others. Russia is not obliged to help it, but it still brokered a peace deal between the two countries for now, so it did help. Second, Armenia may have sent people but these are, I am not entirely 100% sure on this, Armenian military but Karabakh army. Thirdly, Armenia wasn't attacked directly thus CSTO does not take into affect. Unless Armenia was stricken directly, then guarantee Russia would have intervened.

    As for Armenia and the media campaign by US, I don't think it will work. As evident from the so called RI articles youtube video, there was less then 30 people present at that "demonstration". And to boot, the demonstration was in english.... Hmmm, I wonder why? Now The two Armenian's we have on this site seem to be very intelligent people and know quite a bit (The Armenian and Armenian), so I can assume that majority of the population is like that.

    Anyway, head of CSTO and Armenia's president had a metting: https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.ru/sputnikarmenia.ru/karabah/20160415/2989642.html

    So I assume that they are probably drafting out ideas on CSTO's actions and what not. But Armenia knows they cannot side with US (at least I hope they do) cause it will affect directly Armenia in regards to Russia's counter actions with gas prices and what not, which will heavily affect Armenia's economy. Add to that, Turkey is Armenia's enemy and US ally as it is part of NATO. Something that Armenians know very well would drive a wedge from them. As well, Russia would then probably turn to Azerbaijan (as Russia has more to offer Azerbaijan than Turkey does) and I don't think Armenia would like that. But who knows!

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:51 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Or shorter version: Armenian Military was sitting on it's ass and did not fire a single bullet in Azeri direction. You can't expect others to fight your war without being willing to fight yourself.

    Nagorny Karabakh Conflict: 3:1 in Azerbaijan's Favor

    Baku managed to drive a wedge between Armenia and Russia


    http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/nagorny-karabakh-conflict-31-azerbaijan/ri13890

    Originally appeared at Vzglyad – Russian online magazine. Translated by Julia Rakhmetova and Rhod Mackenzie

    The author is a well-known political analyst and expert on the Caucasus


    Another flare-up of the conflict in the Nagorny Karabakh is over.  But this one differed radically from the previous ones. During both non-military and military confrontations, the initiative generally belonged to Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia, and they managed to maintain the status quo: this time it’s Azerbaijan that scores.

    First of all, it’s obvious that the main goal in restarting the conflict wasn’t to start a war as such but to update it and attract international attention, showing that the Karabakh conflict wasn’t over. And given the international resonance the flare-up received, Baku scored impressively.

    Secondly, the power demonstrated by the Azeri army in this short conflict that was not intended to become a full-scale war, was a surprise to everyone, and the results differ drastically from what we’ve seen before.

    Recently during what was probably the most active post-war phase of the conflict, in summer 2014, the Azeri army faced the first defense line of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, but now its troops quickly broke through the two defense lines after taking seven strong points and settlements that Armenians had held for twenty years.

    We can’t say the Azeris dominated on the battlefield, losing many tanks, but in general the action was a surprise. The Karabakh had seemed an unassailable fortress, a perfect engineering feat, but we now can’t be sure about that anymore.

    Finally, Baku succeeded in driving a wedge between Armenia on the one hand, and Russia and the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) on the other. Remember that despite the popular myth that Armenia can defend itself in Nagorny Karabakh, the status quo doctrine for Armenia was always based on the neutralization of Azerbaijan with the help of Moscow and the CSTO freely arming Armenia, while refusing to deliver arms to it and exerting diplomatic and other pressure on Baku, transferring the Karabakh conflict to Armenia’s territory to force both Russia and the CSTO to get involved.

    Today the situation shows that none of that worked: the blockade of arms deliveries to Baku failed completely, neither Russia, nor anyone else opted for Armenia, at best pursuing a policy of equidistance.

    This resulted in semi-panic and semi-hysterics in the Armenian media, cursing President Putin and claiming Russia had betrayed Armenia before, and it could join the US.

    The one considerable drawback for Baku is that much of the international community believes it started the conflict. However, under the current circumstances, that is not very important and for a series of reasons doesn’t imply any urgent threat.

    The fact that Armenia is losing confidence in Moscow and CSTO’s ability to help it solve the Karabakh conflict, straining relations with its allies, benefits Azerbaijan, and this is a serious achievement.

    The fact that the international community sees it as the aggressor is not crucial, making it a  3:1.

    The article has a lot of things wrong.

    First and foremost the "tactical" victory Azerbaijan "won" (you don't win victories by advancing fast then hitting those brakes harder than a Pravosek @ Illovaisk) is very very hard to prove. Azeris haven't integrated at all the UAV/S in their military. It looks like the Strike and tactical overwatch drones were managed by an independent arm of the military (god forbid this is Ivory Coast/Georgian fiasco again) which knew its job rather well. On the other hand, the ground troops tasked with the direct assault, didn't look either informed about the assets (they shot their own drone(s)) or about the actual battlefield flow, since in at least 1 occasion low fying helicopter were picked up by a medium range AA system, that should have been a top priority for the Strike package, which again means that the UAV/S are used by an independent arm and did not actually support the troops organically.

    In simple talk, it looked like Harops were brought in, stroke, then troops moved in, there was no inherent combined tactics with the Harops, because (as we seen later) there's possibly was no direct contact with the Strike UAV's (another indication that possibly foreigners were manning them be that Turks or Israelis). Or simply there's no reliable IFF yet for those UAV's.

    Now as for the wedge...it's pretty simple. Armenia has ZERO other non CSTO sources within its ressources to buy armament without being politically tangled in a quid pro quo. There's also a very big issue with Armenia itself. They were basing the Karabagh defense on static lines with overwatch. Those lines were clearly an issue for Azerbaijan, so they started this "proof of concept" exercise. Which in my opinion failed miserably. BUT, those static lines also proved very vulnerable to drones as they were in the open. My opinion is that instead of manned static lines the Armenians should revert to defensive perimeters like they actually did in 1994. Minning whole areas and fire controlling them is going to be a priority. ATGM's are going to be a top priority as well. Camouflage and Manpads too. Lastly EW needs a shot in the arm. They managed to fry at least a couple of overwatch UAV's. This is something Russia needs to help Armenians with, no ifs or buts.


    If there's one thing with the tactics employed by Azerbijan, is that they aren't all that. Yes Harops were a nasty suprise for Armenia, but they're slow and visible. They can be shot down with whatever manpads you need. Even if used massively, they would be hard pressed to find a target or opportunity if camouflage is applied and AA teams are on high alert.


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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:32 pm

    How can you possibly be informed about anything related to tactics employed by Azerbaijan in detail? Everything was limited in scope compared to an actual war. Someone can try to paint a different picture (the Armenian side), but that's what it was. A small fraction of military forces involved in a limited area.

    Widespread use of UAVs for joint coordination of troops are not a new thing for Azerbaijani military, such tactics have been employed in exercises all the time. Your examples doesn't even make sense, so Azerbaijani troops shot down one of their mini-UAVs? So what?

    As a side note, even artillery batteries (a single battery) make use of mini-UAVs.



    Last edited by AttilaA on Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:42 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Militarov on Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:59 pm

    AttilaA wrote:How did you make up all that? How can you possibly be informed about anything related to tactics employed by Azerbaijan in detail? It was a small-scale operation in a short period of time. Someone can try to paint a different picture, but that's what it was. A small fraction of military forces involved in a limited area.

    Widespread use of UAVs for joint coordination of troops are not a new thing for Azerbaijani military, such tactics have been employed in exercises all the time. Your examples doesn't even make sense.

    For example, even artillery batteries (and I'm talking about a single battery) make use of mini-UAVs at tactical level.


    Wait, 3 UAVs and 2 command posts per artillery battery (which is composition of one tactical UAV system btw) which consists of 4-8 artillery pieces? I dont think so, not even US or Israel have that density of tactical UAVs in their armed forces.

    Tactical UAVs are mostly attached to artillery regiment, but that would depend on armed forces, some use different unit size and names troop, squad, divizion, brigade... Fact that on pic you have UAV and behind it 1 artillery battery does not mean anything, they are probably attached to 4 or 6 batteries but stationed near one.

    Artillery anyways in conflicts like this would get far more useful data from artillery radar than UAVs that were getting shot like toys from flips bag.


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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:05 pm

    I was talking about the mini-UAV, not tactical ones.

    Well, Orbiter mini-UAVs are exactly assigned to a single battery. Here you can see another example with a battery of Lynx MRL. They also have a command-control vehicle which can receive data from other sources.




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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Militarov on Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:32 pm

    AttilaA wrote:I was talking about the mini-UAV, not tactical ones.

    Well, Orbiter mini-UAVs are exactly assigned to a single battery.

    Here you can see another example.


    In military doctrine tactical UAV = "mini uav" as you call it, and yeah they are being often marketed under that designation. Sure tactical UAVs are also MALEs but they have the ability to deployed on far greater ranges and furthermore cover battlefield from strategic point of view unlike Orbiters, Vrabac or Zastava. How we designate them here is light-tactical/medium-range/long-range/strike.

    As they are not used on strategic scale but in small isolated tactical manner military personel mostly refers to them as being tactical rather than light.

    I stay behind my statement that is highly unlikely that each battery has own UAV detachment, if that is the case then Aze has higher UAV density than Israel and US combined which i dont think is the case. You have videos of Orbiter detachment in Serbian army with 6 120mm mortar team, that however does not mean each mortar squad has 3 Orbiters with them. As they are deployed on batallion lvl.

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:54 pm

    Mini, tactical, MALE all have their specific designation and use.

    Again, specific artillery batteries (MRL, SPH) are assigned with their own mini-UAVs. I'm not talking about mortar teams. Those batteries also have their own CP vehicle, which is assigned to a single battery and not the entire battalion.

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:13 pm

    Anyway, coming back to kotemore's arguments, just for the record Armenians claim to have downed Azerbaijani Mi-24 with a RPG. Not my claim, he can go and ask the Armenians. In any case, it was most likely a MANPAD.

    Secondly, what does he know about the results of Harop strikes? After all, Armenians are using the bus strike as a propaganda (which by the way was not against civilians. Someone going to "fight" with guns in their hands are not civilians). A single case of Harop falling/downed is not enough for such argument.

    Then he brings the example of supposed Orbiter downing by our own troops (a simple mini UAV), which is "controlled" in the field and has a limited range.

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:16 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:The article has a lot of things wrong.

    First and foremost the "tactical" victory Azerbaijan "won" (you don't win victories by advancing fast then hitting those brakes harder than a Pravosek @ Illovaisk) is very very hard to prove. Azeris haven't integrated at all the UAV/S in their military. It looks like the Strike and tactical overwatch drones were managed by an independent arm of the military (god forbid this is Ivory Coast/Georgian fiasco again) which knew its job rather well. On the other hand, the ground troops tasked with the direct assault, didn't look either informed about the assets (they shot their own drone(s)) or about the actual battlefield flow, since in at least 1 occasion low fying helicopter were picked up by a medium range AA system, that should have been a top priority for the Strike package, which again means that the UAV/S are used by an independent arm and did not actually support the troops organically.

    In simple talk, it looked like Harops were brought in, stroke, then troops moved in, there was no inherent combined tactics with the Harops, because (as we seen later) there's possibly was no direct contact with the Strike UAV's (another indication that possibly foreigners were manning them be that Turks or Israelis). Or simply there's no reliable IFF yet for those UAV's.

    Now as for the wedge...it's pretty simple. Armenia has ZERO other non CSTO sources within its ressources to buy armament without being politically tangled in a quid pro quo. There's also a very big issue with Armenia itself. They were basing the Karabagh defense on static lines with overwatch. Those lines were clearly an issue for Azerbaijan, so they started this "proof of concept" exercise. Which in my opinion failed miserably. BUT, those static lines also proved very vulnerable to drones as they were in the open. My opinion is that instead of manned static lines the Armenians should revert to defensive perimeters like they actually did in 1994. Minning  whole areas and fire controlling them is going to be a priority. ATGM's are going to be a top priority as well. Camouflage and Manpads too. Lastly EW needs a shot in the arm. They managed to fry at least a couple of overwatch UAV's. This is something Russia needs to help Armenians with, no ifs or buts.


    If there's one thing with the tactics employed by Azerbijan, is that they aren't all that. Yes Harops were a nasty suprise for Armenia, but they're slow and visible. They can be shot down with whatever manpads you need. Even if used massively, they would be hard pressed to find a target or opportunity if camouflage is applied and AA teams are on high alert.

    Agreed 100%.

    And there is a broader issue here. The Azeri failure and retreat is quite alarming, in the sense that their regime looks very weak on international level. Getting slapped around by Armenian flip flops since they became a country till now, and all that. Lets hope they don't get the Arab Spring treatment by their foreign partners. Armenians need to adjust and adapt, but fundamentally they are still the de facto winner regionally.

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:07 pm

    AttilaA wrote:How can you possibly be informed about anything related to tactics employed by Azerbaijan in detail? Everything was limited in scope compared to an actual war. Someone can try to paint a different picture (the Armenian side), but that's what it was. A small fraction of military forces involved in a limited area.

    Widespread use of UAVs for joint coordination of troops are not a new thing for Azerbaijani military, such tactics have been employed in exercises all the time. Your examples doesn't even make sense, so Azerbaijani troops shot down one of their mini-UAVs? So what?

    As a side note, even artillery batteries (a single battery) make use of mini-UAVs.


    Frankly I'm getting pissed by the level of cheast-beating here.

    For a limited action the Azeris have lost at least 6 over-watch drones, including one they shot down themselves. 6 of them in 2 to 3 days of action. They've lost at least an helicopter that wasn't shot from an RPG but MOST probably from an medium range heavy SAM. Not ManPads. They've lost at least 3 Harops that didn't deton.

    The Harops were used as stand alone UAV/S with no follow up. In at least two cases the Harops were filmed by Armenian side (and probably shot down). Using a tactical weapon without exploitation group is useless, if you claim to have it support your ground troops. It's retarded. Even ISIS follows up their VBIEDS with an infantry push. Wtf are you talking about?

    Israelis Use Harpys/Harops as a point defence tool to deter Qassam/Mortar teams  (before that would have been targeted by Tamuz). Now they can loiter and pick up those teams without needing to fire up the radars or perimeter sensors.

    Here the Harops were used to hit a range of targets from AFV's to C2/3 centres. They were used as bird of prey, not actually as a support element. A support element like the damn motherfucking predators that would support and clear shit for US troops in Afghanistan, we've seen QUITE a lot. And they're close knitted with the guys on the ground. Let alone having US marines shooting down, from the ground, just for fun their own UAV.


    Oh yeah coordination with troops where? The fact is that there was literally three footages of strikes from Harpy/Harop captured by over-watch UAV's. Beyond that there was no single movement footage from UAV on Azeri side. If anything the secrecy surrounding this "exercise" is very convenient.

    I bring up exactly the fact that a limited range, organic at platoon, company level UAV was shot, probably by the very same company the damn UAV team was embedded with. It also shows that your guys in the field can't PID their own UAV's (or that they haven't actually seen them and therefore the guys operating them were an independent outfit).

    We can have this discussion day and night and I can point out why this "exercise" was going to run afoul if more fighting was to be had. In a sense the Azeris were very good to capitalize on their "advances". However, there's little sense to halt your march if your coordination is that effective and your troops can work along that well. The fact again that you can lose one whole stick/section of "SOF" is far worrisome than you explaining me this wasn't a war, but that your side started using a couple of millions just to show-off and potentially weed out the surprise effect.

    Armenians aren't dumb and this openly also challenges Russia's role in the NKR deal. It was a very stupid decision to boast in that way whatever advantage you might have over the NKR side. Because now they're going to get help. Not because Russia loves Armenia or NKR, but because Azeris claim they've tipped the balance in the Region. Which goes directly against Russian interest.

    Once again. This is a very good way to create a fiasco in the future...like in Ivory Coast when Israeli teams helped the Ivorians obliterate a French patrol, only to be emasculated by the French troops. Remember these words, Israelis are not your friends. Neither are the Russians.

    Edit also posting a Harpy/Orbiter 1( which is a smaller harpy) as a tactical "surveillance" drone while it has about 4h of max endurance and about 450km of range...LOL.

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:22 am



    Remains of Aze UAV

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:11 am

    The Shilka that shot down an Azeri UAV on the 6th of April at 22:45


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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:13 am

    Armenian modernized OSA-AKM shooting down an Azeri UAV.


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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:13 am

    Well it seems Armenians think it like me...

    Props for shooting down the Harpy 2 with a Shilka. Must have been a brown pants moment.

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:20 am

    TheArmenian wrote:The Shilka that shot down an Azeri UAV on the 6th of April at 22:45


    Also very interesting...the explosive payload is roughly bigger than your heavy ATGM...6kg.

    Heheeh....30kg warhead, yeah.

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Kadmos45 on Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:02 pm

    Something doesn't add up.
    If this Azeri almighty army crushed 2 lines of Karabachian defence, what happened after that ? Did they just "forgot" to continue assault further ?

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Grazneyar on Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:50 pm

    Kadmos45 wrote:Something doesn't add up.
    If this Azeri almighty army crushed 2 lines of Karabachian defence, what happened after that ? Did they just "forgot" to continue assault further  ?

    ^^ This ^^
    They didn't hold any gains so what is the point ? Testing defense to organise counters to it ? Further more it alerts the defenders to their own weak points. The Armenians will be better prepared than before, attack is disproportionally more costly than defense. Unless this is a decoy to draw forces away from another area, perhaps Turkey wants to attack from both sides. I don't understand the Azeri position or what they gained here.

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:40 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Frankly I'm getting pissed by the level of cheast-beating here.

    For a limited action the Azeris have lost at least 6 over-watch drones, including one they shot down themselves. 6 of them in 2 to 3 days of action. They've lost at least an helicopter that wasn't shot from an RPG but MOST probably from an medium range heavy SAM. Not ManPads. They've lost at least 3 Harops that didn't deton.

    The Harops were used as stand alone UAV/S with no follow up. In at least two cases the Harops were filmed by Armenian side (and probably shot down). Using a tactical weapon without exploitation group is useless, if you claim to have it support your ground troops. It's retarded. Even ISIS follows up their VBIEDS with an infantry push. Wtf are you talking about?

    Israelis Use Harpys/Harops as a point defence tool to deter Qassam/Mortar teams  (before that would have been targeted by Tamuz). Now they can loiter and pick up those teams without needing to fire up the radars or perimeter sensors.

    Here the Harops were used to hit a range of targets from AFV's to C2/3 centres. They were used as bird of prey, not actually as a support element. A support element like the damn motherfucking predators that would support and clear shit for US troops in Afghanistan, we've seen QUITE a lot. And they're close knitted with the guys on the ground. Let alone having US marines shooting down, from the ground, just for fun their own UAV.


    Oh yeah coordination with troops where? The fact is that there was literally three footages of strikes from Harpy/Harop captured by over-watch UAV's. Beyond that there was no single movement footage from UAV on Azeri side. If anything the secrecy surrounding this "exercise" is very convenient.

    I bring up exactly the fact that a limited range, organic at platoon, company level UAV was shot, probably by the very same company the damn UAV team was embedded with. It also shows that your guys in the field can't PID their own UAV's (or that they haven't actually seen them and therefore the guys operating them were an independent outfit).

    We can have this discussion day and night and I can point out why this "exercise" was going to run afoul if more fighting was to be had. In a sense the Azeris were very good to capitalize on their "advances". However, there's little sense to halt your march if your coordination is that effective and your troops can work along that well. The fact again that you can lose one whole stick/section of "SOF" is far worrisome than you explaining me this wasn't a war, but that your side started using a couple of millions just to show-off and potentially weed out the surprise effect.

    Armenians aren't dumb and this openly also challenges Russia's role in the NKR deal. It was a very stupid decision to boast in that way whatever advantage you might have over the NKR side. Because now they're going to get help. Not because Russia loves Armenia or NKR, but because Azeris claim they've tipped the balance in the Region. Which goes directly against Russian interest.

    Once again. This is a very good way to create a fiasco in the future...like in Ivory Coast when Israeli teams helped the Ivorians obliterate a French patrol, only to be emasculated by the French troops. Remember these words, Israelis are not your friends. Neither are the Russians.

    Edit also posting a Harpy/Orbiter 1( which is a smaller harpy) as a tactical "surveillance" drone while it has about 4h of max endurance and about 450km of range...LOL.

    No, I don't have any interest in talking to your gibberish "day and night". You type alot of words but they are often not even related. And where did you see any "chest-beating" here?

    It seems you have totally misunderstood what Harop does if you compare it to Predator.

    The tanks were knocked out with ATGM (that had top attack capability, Azerbaijan has Spike and LAHAT with such capabilities). The one attack with cars parked around might have been with a Harop, but not sure about the other one where it shows a completly destroyed building. I will not even bother about the rest.

    That comment shows just how clueless you are. Russia sold arms worth more than $4 billion (or about $5 billion) to Azerbaijan in the past few years. Medvedev and Rogozin stated a few days ago that Russia has no intention of halting the arms sales to Azerbaijan. And Armenia? A $200 million credit for "balance". Balance in quotation because anyone can see the disparity here.

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:09 pm

    AttilaA wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Frankly I'm getting pissed by the level of cheast-beating here.

    For a limited action the Azeris have lost at least 6 over-watch drones, including one they shot down themselves. 6 of them in 2 to 3 days of action. They've lost at least an helicopter that wasn't shot from an RPG but MOST probably from an medium range heavy SAM. Not ManPads. They've lost at least 3 Harops that didn't deton.

    The Harops were used as stand alone UAV/S with no follow up. In at least two cases the Harops were filmed by Armenian side (and probably shot down). Using a tactical weapon without exploitation group is useless, if you claim to have it support your ground troops. It's retarded. Even ISIS follows up their VBIEDS with an infantry push. Wtf are you talking about?

    Israelis Use Harpys/Harops as a point defence tool to deter Qassam/Mortar teams  (before that would have been targeted by Tamuz). Now they can loiter and pick up those teams without needing to fire up the radars or perimeter sensors.

    Here the Harops were used to hit a range of targets from AFV's to C2/3 centres. They were used as bird of prey, not actually as a support element. A support element like the damn motherfucking predators that would support and clear shit for US troops in Afghanistan, we've seen QUITE a lot. And they're close knitted with the guys on the ground. Let alone having US marines shooting down, from the ground, just for fun their own UAV.


    Oh yeah coordination with troops where? The fact is that there was literally three footages of strikes from Harpy/Harop captured by over-watch UAV's. Beyond that there was no single movement footage from UAV on Azeri side. If anything the secrecy surrounding this "exercise" is very convenient.

    I bring up exactly the fact that a limited range, organic at platoon, company level UAV was shot, probably by the very same company the damn UAV team was embedded with. It also shows that your guys in the field can't PID their own UAV's (or that they haven't actually seen them and therefore the guys operating them were an independent outfit).

    We can have this discussion day and night and I can point out why this "exercise" was going to run afoul if more fighting was to be had. In a sense the Azeris were very good to capitalize on their "advances". However, there's little sense to halt your march if your coordination is that effective and your troops can work along that well. The fact again that you can lose one whole stick/section of "SOF" is far worrisome than you explaining me this wasn't a war, but that your side started using a couple of millions just to show-off and potentially weed out the surprise effect.

    Armenians aren't dumb and this openly also challenges Russia's role in the NKR deal. It was a very stupid decision to boast in that way whatever advantage you might have over the NKR side. Because now they're going to get help. Not because Russia loves Armenia or NKR, but because Azeris claim they've tipped the balance in the Region. Which goes directly against Russian interest.

    Once again. This is a very good way to create a fiasco in the future...like in Ivory Coast when Israeli teams helped the Ivorians obliterate a French patrol, only to be emasculated by the French troops. Remember these words, Israelis are not your friends. Neither are the Russians.

    Edit also posting a Harpy/Orbiter 1( which is a smaller harpy) as a tactical "surveillance" drone while it has about 4h of max endurance and about 450km of range...LOL.

    No, I don't have any interest in talking to your gibberish "day and night". And where did you see any "chest-beating" here?

    It seems you have totally misunderstood what Harop does or can do if you compare it to Predator.

    The tanks were knocked out with ATGM (that had top attack capability, Azerbaijan has Spike and LAHAT with such capabilities). The one attack with cars parked around might have been with a Harop, but not sure about the other one where it shows a completly destroyed building. I will not even bother about the rest.

    That comment shows just how clueless you are. Russia sold arms worth more than $4 billion (or about $5 billion) to Azerbaijan in the past few years. Medvedev and Rogozin stated a few days ago that Russia has no intention of halting the arms sales to Azerbaijan. And Armenia? A $200 million credit for "balance". Balance in quotation because anyone can see the disparity here.

    Lol once again, you're really drinking the patriotic kool aid. Tell me what does it look like? Russia will sell Azerbaijan what ever it needs for a war that will a: Never Happen (Greek Scenario) or b: will get Azerbaijan kicked to the curb (Georgian, Iraqi scenario). Not the first time oil economies get armed to the teeth only to then dismantled in detail by proxy or directly.

    Tanks were knocked out with Lahat on board what helicopter (don't tell me it was that Mil Mi 24G) ? In the same sense Using Spike or Harop is basically the same idea. The tanks were picked up as opportunity targets not exactly as a push. Also I haven't misunderstood the Harop, the it seems the Azeris have missunderstood it. If we take your word for granted and using open sources, they've lost as many Harops from Armenian fire as they might have used for a strike. (I count 4 shot/downed and about 4 used to strike). That's a 50% rate.

    You tell me I spew gibberish? The material loss from the Azeri side, that we can verify, is still enormous for a 3 day flare up. Russia has lost 12/15 UAV's in Eastern Ukraine over basically 18 months of conflict.

    You lost the same amount of "tactical" UAV's in 3 days.

    I compare the Harop to the Predator to distinguish it. If the Harops were used as a support weapon (which tactically they are) there was no follow up. They were just sent flying over Armenian lines to pick up targets, although there was no real push to exploit whatever damage those harops were going to do. Basically they were used in the same sense the Israelis use them. With the only difference that Israel uses them for perimeter defence so far, not micro tactical weapons.

    You're so much drowned in the Azeri ***** BS, that you don't see that basically you're another client state, whose relevance (just like Armenia) is going to be determined from the scale of tolerance the regional powers are going to allow you.

    Last time I checked there's no Russian base in Azerbaijan...

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:30 pm

    AttilaA wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Frankly I'm getting pissed by the level of cheast-beating here.

    For a limited action the Azeris have lost at least 6 over-watch drones, including one they shot down themselves. 6 of them in 2 to 3 days of action. They've lost at least an helicopter that wasn't shot from an RPG but MOST probably from an medium range heavy SAM. Not ManPads. They've lost at least 3 Harops that didn't deton.

    The Harops were used as stand alone UAV/S with no follow up. In at least two cases the Harops were filmed by Armenian side (and probably shot down). Using a tactical weapon without exploitation group is useless, if you claim to have it support your ground troops. It's retarded. Even ISIS follows up their VBIEDS with an infantry push. Wtf are you talking about?

    Israelis Use Harpys/Harops as a point defence tool to deter Qassam/Mortar teams  (before that would have been targeted by Tamuz). Now they can loiter and pick up those teams without needing to fire up the radars or perimeter sensors.

    Here the Harops were used to hit a range of targets from AFV's to C2/3 centres. They were used as bird of prey, not actually as a support element. A support element like the damn motherfucking predators that would support and clear shit for US troops in Afghanistan, we've seen QUITE a lot. And they're close knitted with the guys on the ground. Let alone having US marines shooting down, from the ground, just for fun their own UAV.


    Oh yeah coordination with troops where? The fact is that there was literally three footages of strikes from Harpy/Harop captured by over-watch UAV's. Beyond that there was no single movement footage from UAV on Azeri side. If anything the secrecy surrounding this "exercise" is very convenient.

    I bring up exactly the fact that a limited range, organic at platoon, company level UAV was shot, probably by the very same company the damn UAV team was embedded with. It also shows that your guys in the field can't PID their own UAV's (or that they haven't actually seen them and therefore the guys operating them were an independent outfit).

    We can have this discussion day and night and I can point out why this "exercise" was going to run afoul if more fighting was to be had. In a sense the Azeris were very good to capitalize on their "advances". However, there's little sense to halt your march if your coordination is that effective and your troops can work along that well. The fact again that you can lose one whole stick/section of "SOF" is far worrisome than you explaining me this wasn't a war, but that your side started using a couple of millions just to show-off and potentially weed out the surprise effect.

    Armenians aren't dumb and this openly also challenges Russia's role in the NKR deal. It was a very stupid decision to boast in that way whatever advantage you might have over the NKR side. Because now they're going to get help. Not because Russia loves Armenia or NKR, but because Azeris claim they've tipped the balance in the Region. Which goes directly against Russian interest.

    Once again. This is a very good way to create a fiasco in the future...like in Ivory Coast when Israeli teams helped the Ivorians obliterate a French patrol, only to be emasculated by the French troops. Remember these words, Israelis are not your friends. Neither are the Russians.

    Edit also posting a Harpy/Orbiter 1( which is a smaller harpy) as a tactical "surveillance" drone while it has about 4h of max endurance and about 450km of range...LOL.

    No, I don't have any interest in talking to your gibberish "day and night". You type alot of words but they are often not even related. And where did you see any "chest-beating" here?

    It seems you have totally misunderstood what Harop does if you compare it to Predator.

    The tanks were knocked out with ATGM (that had top attack capability, Azerbaijan has Spike and LAHAT with such capabilities). The one attack with cars parked around might have been with a Harop, but not sure about the other one where it shows a completly destroyed building. I will not even bother about the rest.

    That comment shows just how clueless you are. Russia sold arms worth more than $4 billion (or about $5 billion) to Azerbaijan in the past few years. Medvedev and Rogozin stated a few days ago that Russia has no intention of halting the arms sales to Azerbaijan. And Armenia? A $200 million credit for "balance". Balance in quotation because anyone can see the disparity here.

    From what i am aware LAHAT does not have top attack mode when launched from helicopters only when used from ground based launchers.

    See, Harop is supposed to aid existing attack, not to be used as tactical strike weapon. Aze used Harop like its guided 155mm shell... which is totally wrong way to use such system.

    US is selling weapons to both India and Pakistan... so what? Its free market, capitalism. Russia supplied with weapons just some years ago Ukraine, Georgia...South Korea...UAE...

    Let me form a pic for you when its about military equipment sales, its all explained with one sentence i heard on Military Academy: "If i dont sell him ammunition, someone else will anyways, why not at least get something from it". Its not even rare occasion during military conflits that sides in war trade with military equipment in shadows between them. If Russians did not sell T90S to Aze...they would just buy T84s from Ukraine or refubrished T72Bs... so why not squeese some money from you if they can?




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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:33 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    AttilaA wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Frankly I'm getting pissed by the level of cheast-beating here.

    For a limited action the Azeris have lost at least 6 over-watch drones, including one they shot down themselves. 6 of them in 2 to 3 days of action. They've lost at least an helicopter that wasn't shot from an RPG but MOST probably from an medium range heavy SAM. Not ManPads. They've lost at least 3 Harops that didn't deton.

    The Harops were used as stand alone UAV/S with no follow up. In at least two cases the Harops were filmed by Armenian side (and probably shot down). Using a tactical weapon without exploitation group is useless, if you claim to have it support your ground troops. It's retarded. Even ISIS follows up their VBIEDS with an infantry push. Wtf are you talking about?

    Israelis Use Harpys/Harops as a point defence tool to deter Qassam/Mortar teams  (before that would have been targeted by Tamuz). Now they can loiter and pick up those teams without needing to fire up the radars or perimeter sensors.

    Here the Harops were used to hit a range of targets from AFV's to C2/3 centres. They were used as bird of prey, not actually as a support element. A support element like the damn motherfucking predators that would support and clear shit for US troops in Afghanistan, we've seen QUITE a lot. And they're close knitted with the guys on the ground. Let alone having US marines shooting down, from the ground, just for fun their own UAV.


    Oh yeah coordination with troops where? The fact is that there was literally three footages of strikes from Harpy/Harop captured by over-watch UAV's. Beyond that there was no single movement footage from UAV on Azeri side. If anything the secrecy surrounding this "exercise" is very convenient.

    I bring up exactly the fact that a limited range, organic at platoon, company level UAV was shot, probably by the very same company the damn UAV team was embedded with. It also shows that your guys in the field can't PID their own UAV's (or that they haven't actually seen them and therefore the guys operating them were an independent outfit).

    We can have this discussion day and night and I can point out why this "exercise" was going to run afoul if more fighting was to be had. In a sense the Azeris were very good to capitalize on their "advances". However, there's little sense to halt your march if your coordination is that effective and your troops can work along that well. The fact again that you can lose one whole stick/section of "SOF" is far worrisome than you explaining me this wasn't a war, but that your side started using a couple of millions just to show-off and potentially weed out the surprise effect.

    Armenians aren't dumb and this openly also challenges Russia's role in the NKR deal. It was a very stupid decision to boast in that way whatever advantage you might have over the NKR side. Because now they're going to get help. Not because Russia loves Armenia or NKR, but because Azeris claim they've tipped the balance in the Region. Which goes directly against Russian interest.

    Once again. This is a very good way to create a fiasco in the future...like in Ivory Coast when Israeli teams helped the Ivorians obliterate a French patrol, only to be emasculated by the French troops. Remember these words, Israelis are not your friends. Neither are the Russians.

    Edit also posting a Harpy/Orbiter 1( which is a smaller harpy) as a tactical "surveillance" drone while it has about 4h of max endurance and about 450km of range...LOL.

    No, I don't have any interest in talking to your gibberish "day and night". And where did you see any "chest-beating" here?

    It seems you have totally misunderstood what Harop does or can do if you compare it to Predator.

    The tanks were knocked out with ATGM (that had top attack capability, Azerbaijan has Spike and LAHAT with such capabilities). The one attack with cars parked around might have been with a Harop, but not sure about the other one where it shows a completly destroyed building. I will not even bother about the rest.

    That comment shows just how clueless you are. Russia sold arms worth more than $4 billion (or about $5 billion) to Azerbaijan in the past few years. Medvedev and Rogozin stated a few days ago that Russia has no intention of halting the arms sales to Azerbaijan. And Armenia? A $200 million credit for "balance". Balance in quotation because anyone can see the disparity here.

    Lol once again, you're really drinking the patriotic kool aid. Tell me what does it look like? Russia will sell Azerbaijan what ever it needs for a war that will a: Never Happen (Greek Scenario) or b: will get Azerbaijan kicked to the curb (Georgian, Iraqi scenario). Not the first time oil economies get armed to the teeth only to then dismantled in detail by proxy or directly.

    Tanks were knocked out with Lahat on board what helicopter (don't tell me it was that Mil Mi 24G) ? In the same sense Using Spike or Harop is basically the same idea. The tanks were picked up as opportunity targets not exactly as a push. Also I haven't misunderstood the Harop, the it seems the Azeris have missunderstood it. If we take your word for granted and using open sources, they've lost as many Harops from Armenian fire as they might have used for a strike. (I count 4 shot/downed and about 4 used to strike). That's a 50% rate.

    You tell me I spew gibberish? The material loss from the Azeri side, that we can verify, is still enormous for a 3 day flare up. Russia has lost 12/15 UAV's in Eastern Ukraine over basically 18 months of conflict.

    You lost the same amount of "tactical" UAV's in 3 days.

    I compare the Harop to the Predator to distinguish it. If the Harops were used as a support weapon (which tactically they are) there was no follow up. They were just sent flying over Armenian lines to pick up targets, although there was no real push to exploit whatever damage those harops were going to do. Basically they were used in the same sense the Israelis use them. With the only difference that Israel uses them for perimeter defence so far, not micro tactical weapons.

    You're so much drowned in the Azeri ***** BS, that you don't see that basically you're another client state, whose relevance (just like Armenia) is going to be determined from the scale of tolerance the regional powers are going to allow you.

    Last time I checked there's no Russian base in Azerbaijan...

    Apparently few Mi17s have been fitted with LAHAT launchers and following equipment:





    "The Heliborne LAHAT system comprises IAI’s MOSP3000D observation payload with designation capabilities, a Weapons Control System (WCS) and two quad pack missile launchers. In October 2013 IAI announced an award of a ‘substantial contract’ for the delivery of LAHAT missile systems, to be used as a primary weapon system for combat helicopters."

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:02 pm

    http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/armenians-are-wrong-complain-moscow-arming-azerbaijan-really-their-advantage/ri13929

    Good read. Why Moscow sold arms to both Azerbaijan and Armenia and why Armenia's reactions were unfounded but understandable. Another Armenian gives his pov in comments section.

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:20 pm

    You are assuming that Harops were used to target Armenian tanks and I don't know why. According to Armenians themselves they lost 14 tank and 4 BMP, it seems like you are counting way less.

    This T-72 was destroyed with an ATGM while trying to conceal itself behind that "hill". Spike has the capability to hit concealed targets.



    Again, you don't know what tactics were employed with Harop, or its success rate (obviously Armenians are not going to reveal successful Harop strikes. Don't expect Azerbaijan to give such specific information either).

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:00 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    AttilaA wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Frankly I'm getting pissed by the level of cheast-beating here.

    For a limited action the Azeris have lost at least 6 over-watch drones, including one they shot down themselves. 6 of them in 2 to 3 days of action. They've lost at least an helicopter that wasn't shot from an RPG but MOST probably from an medium range heavy SAM. Not ManPads. They've lost at least 3 Harops that didn't deton.

    The Harops were used as stand alone UAV/S with no follow up. In at least two cases the Harops were filmed by Armenian side (and probably shot down). Using a tactical weapon without exploitation group is useless, if you claim to have it support your ground troops. It's retarded. Even ISIS follows up their VBIEDS with an infantry push. Wtf are you talking about?

    Israelis Use Harpys/Harops as a point defence tool to deter Qassam/Mortar teams  (before that would have been targeted by Tamuz). Now they can loiter and pick up those teams without needing to fire up the radars or perimeter sensors.

    Here the Harops were used to hit a range of targets from AFV's to C2/3 centres. They were used as bird of prey, not actually as a support element. A support element like the damn motherfucking predators that would support and clear shit for US troops in Afghanistan, we've seen QUITE a lot. And they're close knitted with the guys on the ground. Let alone having US marines shooting down, from the ground, just for fun their own UAV.


    Oh yeah coordination with troops where? The fact is that there was literally three footages of strikes from Harpy/Harop captured by over-watch UAV's. Beyond that there was no single movement footage from UAV on Azeri side. If anything the secrecy surrounding this "exercise" is very convenient.

    I bring up exactly the fact that a limited range, organic at platoon, company level UAV was shot, probably by the very same company the damn UAV team was embedded with. It also shows that your guys in the field can't PID their own UAV's (or that they haven't actually seen them and therefore the guys operating them were an independent outfit).

    We can have this discussion day and night and I can point out why this "exercise" was going to run afoul if more fighting was to be had. In a sense the Azeris were very good to capitalize on their "advances". However, there's little sense to halt your march if your coordination is that effective and your troops can work along that well. The fact again that you can lose one whole stick/section of "SOF" is far worrisome than you explaining me this wasn't a war, but that your side started using a couple of millions just to show-off and potentially weed out the surprise effect.

    Armenians aren't dumb and this openly also challenges Russia's role in the NKR deal. It was a very stupid decision to boast in that way whatever advantage you might have over the NKR side. Because now they're going to get help. Not because Russia loves Armenia or NKR, but because Azeris claim they've tipped the balance in the Region. Which goes directly against Russian interest.

    Once again. This is a very good way to create a fiasco in the future...like in Ivory Coast when Israeli teams helped the Ivorians obliterate a French patrol, only to be emasculated by the French troops. Remember these words, Israelis are not your friends. Neither are the Russians.

    Edit also posting a Harpy/Orbiter 1( which is a smaller harpy) as a tactical "surveillance" drone while it has about 4h of max endurance and about 450km of range...LOL.

    No, I don't have any interest in talking to your gibberish "day and night". And where did you see any "chest-beating" here?

    It seems you have totally misunderstood what Harop does or can do if you compare it to Predator.

    The tanks were knocked out with ATGM (that had top attack capability, Azerbaijan has Spike and LAHAT with such capabilities). The one attack with cars parked around might have been with a Harop, but not sure about the other one where it shows a completly destroyed building. I will not even bother about the rest.

    That comment shows just how clueless you are. Russia sold arms worth more than $4 billion (or about $5 billion) to Azerbaijan in the past few years. Medvedev and Rogozin stated a few days ago that Russia has no intention of halting the arms sales to Azerbaijan. And Armenia? A $200 million credit for "balance". Balance in quotation because anyone can see the disparity here.

    Lol once again, you're really drinking the patriotic kool aid. Tell me what does it look like? Russia will sell Azerbaijan what ever it needs for a war that will a: Never Happen (Greek Scenario) or b: will get Azerbaijan kicked to the curb (Georgian, Iraqi scenario). Not the first time oil economies get armed to the teeth only to then dismantled in detail by proxy or directly.

    Tanks were knocked out with Lahat on board what helicopter (don't tell me it was that Mil Mi 24G) ? In the same sense Using Spike or Harop is basically the same idea. The tanks were picked up as opportunity targets not exactly as a push. Also I haven't misunderstood the Harop, the it seems the Azeris have missunderstood it. If we take your word for granted and using open sources, they've lost as many Harops from Armenian fire as they might have used for a strike. (I count 4 shot/downed and about 4 used to strike). That's a 50% rate.

    You tell me I spew gibberish? The material loss from the Azeri side, that we can verify, is still enormous for a 3 day flare up. Russia has lost 12/15 UAV's in Eastern Ukraine over basically 18 months of conflict.

    You lost the same amount of "tactical" UAV's in 3 days.

    I compare the Harop to the Predator to distinguish it. If the Harops were used as a support weapon (which tactically they are) there was no follow up. They were just sent flying over Armenian lines to pick up targets, although there was no real push to exploit whatever damage those harops were going to do. Basically they were used in the same sense the Israelis use them. With the only difference that Israel uses them for perimeter defence so far, not micro tactical weapons.

    You're so much drowned in the Azeri ***** BS, that you don't see that basically you're another client state, whose relevance (just like Armenia) is going to be determined from the scale of tolerance the regional powers are going to allow you.

    Last time I checked there's no Russian base in Azerbaijan...

    Apparently few Mi17s have been fitted with LAHAT launchers and following equipment:





    "The Heliborne LAHAT system comprises IAI’s MOSP3000D observation payload with designation capabilities, a Weapons Control System (WCS) and two quad pack missile launchers. In October 2013 IAI announced an award of a ‘substantial contract’ for the delivery of LAHAT missile systems, to be used as a primary weapon system for combat helicopters."

    Yeah which is even less survivable than the Mil Mi 24G...

    AttilA: I'm assuming they were used as they were taught, to the people using them. Loiter and strike. That's not exactly a support setup.

    I count from Armenian sources and open data, 8 Harops used at least. 4 we know were driven down to bits (including the funny video you said was an Harop/Harpy going for the kill, while the drone actually hits almost from zenith).


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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:35 am

    Also for those in the Armenian corner; know thy enemy...

    http://www.inss.org.il/uploadImages/systemFiles/adkan17_4ENG_7_Lindenstrauss.pdf

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    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 9:03 am


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