Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Share

    AttilaA

    Posts : 153
    Points : 184
    Join date : 2011-10-13

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:05 pm

    I was talking about the mini-UAV, not tactical ones.

    Well, Orbiter mini-UAVs are exactly assigned to a single battery. Here you can see another example with a battery of Lynx MRL. They also have a command-control vehicle which can receive data from other sources.



    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5537
    Points : 5578
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Militarov on Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:32 pm

    AttilaA wrote:I was talking about the mini-UAV, not tactical ones.

    Well, Orbiter mini-UAVs are exactly assigned to a single battery.

    Here you can see another example.


    In military doctrine tactical UAV = "mini uav" as you call it, and yeah they are being often marketed under that designation. Sure tactical UAVs are also MALEs but they have the ability to deployed on far greater ranges and furthermore cover battlefield from strategic point of view unlike Orbiters, Vrabac or Zastava. How we designate them here is light-tactical/medium-range/long-range/strike.

    As they are not used on strategic scale but in small isolated tactical manner military personel mostly refers to them as being tactical rather than light.

    I stay behind my statement that is highly unlikely that each battery has own UAV detachment, if that is the case then Aze has higher UAV density than Israel and US combined which i dont think is the case. You have videos of Orbiter detachment in Serbian army with 6 120mm mortar team, that however does not mean each mortar squad has 3 Orbiters with them. As they are deployed on batallion lvl.

    AttilaA

    Posts : 153
    Points : 184
    Join date : 2011-10-13

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:54 pm

    Mini, tactical, MALE all have their specific designation and use.

    Again, specific artillery batteries (MRL, SPH) are assigned with their own mini-UAVs. I'm not talking about mortar teams. Those batteries also have their own CP vehicle, which is assigned to a single battery and not the entire battalion.

    AttilaA

    Posts : 153
    Points : 184
    Join date : 2011-10-13

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:13 pm

    Anyway, coming back to kotemore's arguments, just for the record Armenians claim to have downed Azerbaijani Mi-24 with a RPG. Not my claim, he can go and ask the Armenians. In any case, it was most likely a MANPAD.

    Secondly, what does he know about the results of Harop strikes? After all, Armenians are using the bus strike as a propaganda (which by the way was not against civilians. Someone going to "fight" with guns in their hands are not civilians). A single case of Harop falling/downed is not enough for such argument.

    Then he brings the example of supposed Orbiter downing by our own troops (a simple mini UAV), which is "controlled" in the field and has a limited range.
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2008
    Points : 2028
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:16 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:The article has a lot of things wrong.

    First and foremost the "tactical" victory Azerbaijan "won" (you don't win victories by advancing fast then hitting those brakes harder than a Pravosek @ Illovaisk) is very very hard to prove. Azeris haven't integrated at all the UAV/S in their military. It looks like the Strike and tactical overwatch drones were managed by an independent arm of the military (god forbid this is Ivory Coast/Georgian fiasco again) which knew its job rather well. On the other hand, the ground troops tasked with the direct assault, didn't look either informed about the assets (they shot their own drone(s)) or about the actual battlefield flow, since in at least 1 occasion low fying helicopter were picked up by a medium range AA system, that should have been a top priority for the Strike package, which again means that the UAV/S are used by an independent arm and did not actually support the troops organically.

    In simple talk, it looked like Harops were brought in, stroke, then troops moved in, there was no inherent combined tactics with the Harops, because (as we seen later) there's possibly was no direct contact with the Strike UAV's (another indication that possibly foreigners were manning them be that Turks or Israelis). Or simply there's no reliable IFF yet for those UAV's.

    Now as for the wedge...it's pretty simple. Armenia has ZERO other non CSTO sources within its ressources to buy armament without being politically tangled in a quid pro quo. There's also a very big issue with Armenia itself. They were basing the Karabagh defense on static lines with overwatch. Those lines were clearly an issue for Azerbaijan, so they started this "proof of concept" exercise. Which in my opinion failed miserably. BUT, those static lines also proved very vulnerable to drones as they were in the open. My opinion is that instead of manned static lines the Armenians should revert to defensive perimeters like they actually did in 1994. Minning  whole areas and fire controlling them is going to be a priority. ATGM's are going to be a top priority as well. Camouflage and Manpads too. Lastly EW needs a shot in the arm. They managed to fry at least a couple of overwatch UAV's. This is something Russia needs to help Armenians with, no ifs or buts.


    If there's one thing with the tactics employed by Azerbijan, is that they aren't all that. Yes Harops were a nasty suprise for Armenia, but they're slow and visible. They can be shot down with whatever manpads you need. Even if used massively, they would be hard pressed to find a target or opportunity if camouflage is applied and AA teams are on high alert.

    Agreed 100%.

    And there is a broader issue here. The Azeri failure and retreat is quite alarming, in the sense that their regime looks very weak on international level. Getting slapped around by Armenian flip flops since they became a country till now, and all that. Lets hope they don't get the Arab Spring treatment by their foreign partners. Armenians need to adjust and adapt, but fundamentally they are still the de facto winner regionally.
    avatar
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 3911
    Points : 3938
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:07 pm

    AttilaA wrote:How can you possibly be informed about anything related to tactics employed by Azerbaijan in detail? Everything was limited in scope compared to an actual war. Someone can try to paint a different picture (the Armenian side), but that's what it was. A small fraction of military forces involved in a limited area.

    Widespread use of UAVs for joint coordination of troops are not a new thing for Azerbaijani military, such tactics have been employed in exercises all the time. Your examples doesn't even make sense, so Azerbaijani troops shot down one of their mini-UAVs? So what?

    As a side note, even artillery batteries (a single battery) make use of mini-UAVs.


    Frankly I'm getting pissed by the level of cheast-beating here.

    For a limited action the Azeris have lost at least 6 over-watch drones, including one they shot down themselves. 6 of them in 2 to 3 days of action. They've lost at least an helicopter that wasn't shot from an RPG but MOST probably from an medium range heavy SAM. Not ManPads. They've lost at least 3 Harops that didn't deton.

    The Harops were used as stand alone UAV/S with no follow up. In at least two cases the Harops were filmed by Armenian side (and probably shot down). Using a tactical weapon without exploitation group is useless, if you claim to have it support your ground troops. It's retarded. Even ISIS follows up their VBIEDS with an infantry push. Wtf are you talking about?

    Israelis Use Harpys/Harops as a point defence tool to deter Qassam/Mortar teams  (before that would have been targeted by Tamuz). Now they can loiter and pick up those teams without needing to fire up the radars or perimeter sensors.

    Here the Harops were used to hit a range of targets from AFV's to C2/3 centres. They were used as bird of prey, not actually as a support element. A support element like the damn motherfucking predators that would support and clear shit for US troops in Afghanistan, we've seen QUITE a lot. And they're close knitted with the guys on the ground. Let alone having US marines shooting down, from the ground, just for fun their own UAV.


    Oh yeah coordination with troops where? The fact is that there was literally three footages of strikes from Harpy/Harop captured by over-watch UAV's. Beyond that there was no single movement footage from UAV on Azeri side. If anything the secrecy surrounding this "exercise" is very convenient.

    I bring up exactly the fact that a limited range, organic at platoon, company level UAV was shot, probably by the very same company the damn UAV team was embedded with. It also shows that your guys in the field can't PID their own UAV's (or that they haven't actually seen them and therefore the guys operating them were an independent outfit).

    We can have this discussion day and night and I can point out why this "exercise" was going to run afoul if more fighting was to be had. In a sense the Azeris were very good to capitalize on their "advances". However, there's little sense to halt your march if your coordination is that effective and your troops can work along that well. The fact again that you can lose one whole stick/section of "SOF" is far worrisome than you explaining me this wasn't a war, but that your side started using a couple of millions just to show-off and potentially weed out the surprise effect.

    Armenians aren't dumb and this openly also challenges Russia's role in the NKR deal. It was a very stupid decision to boast in that way whatever advantage you might have over the NKR side. Because now they're going to get help. Not because Russia loves Armenia or NKR, but because Azeris claim they've tipped the balance in the Region. Which goes directly against Russian interest.

    Once again. This is a very good way to create a fiasco in the future...like in Ivory Coast when Israeli teams helped the Ivorians obliterate a French patrol, only to be emasculated by the French troops. Remember these words, Israelis are not your friends. Neither are the Russians.

    Edit also posting a Harpy/Orbiter 1( which is a smaller harpy) as a tactical "surveillance" drone while it has about 4h of max endurance and about 450km of range...LOL.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5537
    Points : 5578
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:22 am



    Remains of Aze UAV
    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1709
    Points : 1866
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:11 am

    The Shilka that shot down an Azeri UAV on the 6th of April at 22:45

    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1709
    Points : 1866
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:13 am

    Armenian modernized OSA-AKM shooting down an Azeri UAV.

    avatar
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 3911
    Points : 3938
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:13 am

    Well it seems Armenians think it like me...

    Props for shooting down the Harpy 2 with a Shilka. Must have been a brown pants moment.
    avatar
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 3911
    Points : 3938
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:20 am

    TheArmenian wrote:The Shilka that shot down an Azeri UAV on the 6th of April at 22:45


    Also very interesting...the explosive payload is roughly bigger than your heavy ATGM...6kg.

    Heheeh....30kg warhead, yeah.
    avatar
    Kadmos45

    Posts : 131
    Points : 133
    Join date : 2015-11-24
    Location : PRL

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Kadmos45 on Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:02 pm

    Something doesn't add up.
    If this Azeri almighty army crushed 2 lines of Karabachian defence, what happened after that ? Did they just "forgot" to continue assault further ?
    avatar
    Grazneyar

    Posts : 41
    Points : 43
    Join date : 2016-04-12

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Grazneyar on Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:50 pm

    Kadmos45 wrote:Something doesn't add up.
    If this Azeri almighty army crushed 2 lines of Karabachian defence, what happened after that ? Did they just "forgot" to continue assault further  ?

    ^^ This ^^
    They didn't hold any gains so what is the point ? Testing defense to organise counters to it ? Further more it alerts the defenders to their own weak points. The Armenians will be better prepared than before, attack is disproportionally more costly than defense. Unless this is a decoy to draw forces away from another area, perhaps Turkey wants to attack from both sides. I don't understand the Azeri position or what they gained here.

    AttilaA

    Posts : 153
    Points : 184
    Join date : 2011-10-13

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:40 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Frankly I'm getting pissed by the level of cheast-beating here.

    For a limited action the Azeris have lost at least 6 over-watch drones, including one they shot down themselves. 6 of them in 2 to 3 days of action. They've lost at least an helicopter that wasn't shot from an RPG but MOST probably from an medium range heavy SAM. Not ManPads. They've lost at least 3 Harops that didn't deton.

    The Harops were used as stand alone UAV/S with no follow up. In at least two cases the Harops were filmed by Armenian side (and probably shot down). Using a tactical weapon without exploitation group is useless, if you claim to have it support your ground troops. It's retarded. Even ISIS follows up their VBIEDS with an infantry push. Wtf are you talking about?

    Israelis Use Harpys/Harops as a point defence tool to deter Qassam/Mortar teams  (before that would have been targeted by Tamuz). Now they can loiter and pick up those teams without needing to fire up the radars or perimeter sensors.

    Here the Harops were used to hit a range of targets from AFV's to C2/3 centres. They were used as bird of prey, not actually as a support element. A support element like the damn motherfucking predators that would support and clear shit for US troops in Afghanistan, we've seen QUITE a lot. And they're close knitted with the guys on the ground. Let alone having US marines shooting down, from the ground, just for fun their own UAV.


    Oh yeah coordination with troops where? The fact is that there was literally three footages of strikes from Harpy/Harop captured by over-watch UAV's. Beyond that there was no single movement footage from UAV on Azeri side. If anything the secrecy surrounding this "exercise" is very convenient.

    I bring up exactly the fact that a limited range, organic at platoon, company level UAV was shot, probably by the very same company the damn UAV team was embedded with. It also shows that your guys in the field can't PID their own UAV's (or that they haven't actually seen them and therefore the guys operating them were an independent outfit).

    We can have this discussion day and night and I can point out why this "exercise" was going to run afoul if more fighting was to be had. In a sense the Azeris were very good to capitalize on their "advances". However, there's little sense to halt your march if your coordination is that effective and your troops can work along that well. The fact again that you can lose one whole stick/section of "SOF" is far worrisome than you explaining me this wasn't a war, but that your side started using a couple of millions just to show-off and potentially weed out the surprise effect.

    Armenians aren't dumb and this openly also challenges Russia's role in the NKR deal. It was a very stupid decision to boast in that way whatever advantage you might have over the NKR side. Because now they're going to get help. Not because Russia loves Armenia or NKR, but because Azeris claim they've tipped the balance in the Region. Which goes directly against Russian interest.

    Once again. This is a very good way to create a fiasco in the future...like in Ivory Coast when Israeli teams helped the Ivorians obliterate a French patrol, only to be emasculated by the French troops. Remember these words, Israelis are not your friends. Neither are the Russians.

    Edit also posting a Harpy/Orbiter 1( which is a smaller harpy) as a tactical "surveillance" drone while it has about 4h of max endurance and about 450km of range...LOL.

    No, I don't have any interest in talking to your gibberish "day and night". You type alot of words but they are often not even related. And where did you see any "chest-beating" here?

    It seems you have totally misunderstood what Harop does if you compare it to Predator.

    The tanks were knocked out with ATGM (that had top attack capability, Azerbaijan has Spike and LAHAT with such capabilities). The one attack with cars parked around might have been with a Harop, but not sure about the other one where it shows a completly destroyed building. I will not even bother about the rest.

    That comment shows just how clueless you are. Russia sold arms worth more than $4 billion (or about $5 billion) to Azerbaijan in the past few years. Medvedev and Rogozin stated a few days ago that Russia has no intention of halting the arms sales to Azerbaijan. And Armenia? A $200 million credit for "balance". Balance in quotation because anyone can see the disparity here.
    avatar
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 3911
    Points : 3938
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:09 pm

    AttilaA wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Frankly I'm getting pissed by the level of cheast-beating here.

    For a limited action the Azeris have lost at least 6 over-watch drones, including one they shot down themselves. 6 of them in 2 to 3 days of action. They've lost at least an helicopter that wasn't shot from an RPG but MOST probably from an medium range heavy SAM. Not ManPads. They've lost at least 3 Harops that didn't deton.

    The Harops were used as stand alone UAV/S with no follow up. In at least two cases the Harops were filmed by Armenian side (and probably shot down). Using a tactical weapon without exploitation group is useless, if you claim to have it support your ground troops. It's retarded. Even ISIS follows up their VBIEDS with an infantry push. Wtf are you talking about?

    Israelis Use Harpys/Harops as a point defence tool to deter Qassam/Mortar teams  (before that would have been targeted by Tamuz). Now they can loiter and pick up those teams without needing to fire up the radars or perimeter sensors.

    Here the Harops were used to hit a range of targets from AFV's to C2/3 centres. They were used as bird of prey, not actually as a support element. A support element like the damn motherfucking predators that would support and clear shit for US troops in Afghanistan, we've seen QUITE a lot. And they're close knitted with the guys on the ground. Let alone having US marines shooting down, from the ground, just for fun their own UAV.


    Oh yeah coordination with troops where? The fact is that there was literally three footages of strikes from Harpy/Harop captured by over-watch UAV's. Beyond that there was no single movement footage from UAV on Azeri side. If anything the secrecy surrounding this "exercise" is very convenient.

    I bring up exactly the fact that a limited range, organic at platoon, company level UAV was shot, probably by the very same company the damn UAV team was embedded with. It also shows that your guys in the field can't PID their own UAV's (or that they haven't actually seen them and therefore the guys operating them were an independent outfit).

    We can have this discussion day and night and I can point out why this "exercise" was going to run afoul if more fighting was to be had. In a sense the Azeris were very good to capitalize on their "advances". However, there's little sense to halt your march if your coordination is that effective and your troops can work along that well. The fact again that you can lose one whole stick/section of "SOF" is far worrisome than you explaining me this wasn't a war, but that your side started using a couple of millions just to show-off and potentially weed out the surprise effect.

    Armenians aren't dumb and this openly also challenges Russia's role in the NKR deal. It was a very stupid decision to boast in that way whatever advantage you might have over the NKR side. Because now they're going to get help. Not because Russia loves Armenia or NKR, but because Azeris claim they've tipped the balance in the Region. Which goes directly against Russian interest.

    Once again. This is a very good way to create a fiasco in the future...like in Ivory Coast when Israeli teams helped the Ivorians obliterate a French patrol, only to be emasculated by the French troops. Remember these words, Israelis are not your friends. Neither are the Russians.

    Edit also posting a Harpy/Orbiter 1( which is a smaller harpy) as a tactical "surveillance" drone while it has about 4h of max endurance and about 450km of range...LOL.

    No, I don't have any interest in talking to your gibberish "day and night". And where did you see any "chest-beating" here?

    It seems you have totally misunderstood what Harop does or can do if you compare it to Predator.

    The tanks were knocked out with ATGM (that had top attack capability, Azerbaijan has Spike and LAHAT with such capabilities). The one attack with cars parked around might have been with a Harop, but not sure about the other one where it shows a completly destroyed building. I will not even bother about the rest.

    That comment shows just how clueless you are. Russia sold arms worth more than $4 billion (or about $5 billion) to Azerbaijan in the past few years. Medvedev and Rogozin stated a few days ago that Russia has no intention of halting the arms sales to Azerbaijan. And Armenia? A $200 million credit for "balance". Balance in quotation because anyone can see the disparity here.

    Lol once again, you're really drinking the patriotic kool aid. Tell me what does it look like? Russia will sell Azerbaijan what ever it needs for a war that will a: Never Happen (Greek Scenario) or b: will get Azerbaijan kicked to the curb (Georgian, Iraqi scenario). Not the first time oil economies get armed to the teeth only to then dismantled in detail by proxy or directly.

    Tanks were knocked out with Lahat on board what helicopter (don't tell me it was that Mil Mi 24G) ? In the same sense Using Spike or Harop is basically the same idea. The tanks were picked up as opportunity targets not exactly as a push. Also I haven't misunderstood the Harop, the it seems the Azeris have missunderstood it. If we take your word for granted and using open sources, they've lost as many Harops from Armenian fire as they might have used for a strike. (I count 4 shot/downed and about 4 used to strike). That's a 50% rate.

    You tell me I spew gibberish? The material loss from the Azeri side, that we can verify, is still enormous for a 3 day flare up. Russia has lost 12/15 UAV's in Eastern Ukraine over basically 18 months of conflict.

    You lost the same amount of "tactical" UAV's in 3 days.

    I compare the Harop to the Predator to distinguish it. If the Harops were used as a support weapon (which tactically they are) there was no follow up. They were just sent flying over Armenian lines to pick up targets, although there was no real push to exploit whatever damage those harops were going to do. Basically they were used in the same sense the Israelis use them. With the only difference that Israel uses them for perimeter defence so far, not micro tactical weapons.

    You're so much drowned in the Azeri ***** BS, that you don't see that basically you're another client state, whose relevance (just like Armenia) is going to be determined from the scale of tolerance the regional powers are going to allow you.

    Last time I checked there's no Russian base in Azerbaijan...
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5537
    Points : 5578
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:30 pm

    AttilaA wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Frankly I'm getting pissed by the level of cheast-beating here.

    For a limited action the Azeris have lost at least 6 over-watch drones, including one they shot down themselves. 6 of them in 2 to 3 days of action. They've lost at least an helicopter that wasn't shot from an RPG but MOST probably from an medium range heavy SAM. Not ManPads. They've lost at least 3 Harops that didn't deton.

    The Harops were used as stand alone UAV/S with no follow up. In at least two cases the Harops were filmed by Armenian side (and probably shot down). Using a tactical weapon without exploitation group is useless, if you claim to have it support your ground troops. It's retarded. Even ISIS follows up their VBIEDS with an infantry push. Wtf are you talking about?

    Israelis Use Harpys/Harops as a point defence tool to deter Qassam/Mortar teams  (before that would have been targeted by Tamuz). Now they can loiter and pick up those teams without needing to fire up the radars or perimeter sensors.

    Here the Harops were used to hit a range of targets from AFV's to C2/3 centres. They were used as bird of prey, not actually as a support element. A support element like the damn motherfucking predators that would support and clear shit for US troops in Afghanistan, we've seen QUITE a lot. And they're close knitted with the guys on the ground. Let alone having US marines shooting down, from the ground, just for fun their own UAV.


    Oh yeah coordination with troops where? The fact is that there was literally three footages of strikes from Harpy/Harop captured by over-watch UAV's. Beyond that there was no single movement footage from UAV on Azeri side. If anything the secrecy surrounding this "exercise" is very convenient.

    I bring up exactly the fact that a limited range, organic at platoon, company level UAV was shot, probably by the very same company the damn UAV team was embedded with. It also shows that your guys in the field can't PID their own UAV's (or that they haven't actually seen them and therefore the guys operating them were an independent outfit).

    We can have this discussion day and night and I can point out why this "exercise" was going to run afoul if more fighting was to be had. In a sense the Azeris were very good to capitalize on their "advances". However, there's little sense to halt your march if your coordination is that effective and your troops can work along that well. The fact again that you can lose one whole stick/section of "SOF" is far worrisome than you explaining me this wasn't a war, but that your side started using a couple of millions just to show-off and potentially weed out the surprise effect.

    Armenians aren't dumb and this openly also challenges Russia's role in the NKR deal. It was a very stupid decision to boast in that way whatever advantage you might have over the NKR side. Because now they're going to get help. Not because Russia loves Armenia or NKR, but because Azeris claim they've tipped the balance in the Region. Which goes directly against Russian interest.

    Once again. This is a very good way to create a fiasco in the future...like in Ivory Coast when Israeli teams helped the Ivorians obliterate a French patrol, only to be emasculated by the French troops. Remember these words, Israelis are not your friends. Neither are the Russians.

    Edit also posting a Harpy/Orbiter 1( which is a smaller harpy) as a tactical "surveillance" drone while it has about 4h of max endurance and about 450km of range...LOL.

    No, I don't have any interest in talking to your gibberish "day and night". You type alot of words but they are often not even related. And where did you see any "chest-beating" here?

    It seems you have totally misunderstood what Harop does if you compare it to Predator.

    The tanks were knocked out with ATGM (that had top attack capability, Azerbaijan has Spike and LAHAT with such capabilities). The one attack with cars parked around might have been with a Harop, but not sure about the other one where it shows a completly destroyed building. I will not even bother about the rest.

    That comment shows just how clueless you are. Russia sold arms worth more than $4 billion (or about $5 billion) to Azerbaijan in the past few years. Medvedev and Rogozin stated a few days ago that Russia has no intention of halting the arms sales to Azerbaijan. And Armenia? A $200 million credit for "balance". Balance in quotation because anyone can see the disparity here.

    From what i am aware LAHAT does not have top attack mode when launched from helicopters only when used from ground based launchers.

    See, Harop is supposed to aid existing attack, not to be used as tactical strike weapon. Aze used Harop like its guided 155mm shell... which is totally wrong way to use such system.

    US is selling weapons to both India and Pakistan... so what? Its free market, capitalism. Russia supplied with weapons just some years ago Ukraine, Georgia...South Korea...UAE...

    Let me form a pic for you when its about military equipment sales, its all explained with one sentence i heard on Military Academy: "If i dont sell him ammunition, someone else will anyways, why not at least get something from it". Its not even rare occasion during military conflits that sides in war trade with military equipment in shadows between them. If Russians did not sell T90S to Aze...they would just buy T84s from Ukraine or refubrished T72Bs... so why not squeese some money from you if they can?



    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5537
    Points : 5578
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:33 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    AttilaA wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Frankly I'm getting pissed by the level of cheast-beating here.

    For a limited action the Azeris have lost at least 6 over-watch drones, including one they shot down themselves. 6 of them in 2 to 3 days of action. They've lost at least an helicopter that wasn't shot from an RPG but MOST probably from an medium range heavy SAM. Not ManPads. They've lost at least 3 Harops that didn't deton.

    The Harops were used as stand alone UAV/S with no follow up. In at least two cases the Harops were filmed by Armenian side (and probably shot down). Using a tactical weapon without exploitation group is useless, if you claim to have it support your ground troops. It's retarded. Even ISIS follows up their VBIEDS with an infantry push. Wtf are you talking about?

    Israelis Use Harpys/Harops as a point defence tool to deter Qassam/Mortar teams  (before that would have been targeted by Tamuz). Now they can loiter and pick up those teams without needing to fire up the radars or perimeter sensors.

    Here the Harops were used to hit a range of targets from AFV's to C2/3 centres. They were used as bird of prey, not actually as a support element. A support element like the damn motherfucking predators that would support and clear shit for US troops in Afghanistan, we've seen QUITE a lot. And they're close knitted with the guys on the ground. Let alone having US marines shooting down, from the ground, just for fun their own UAV.


    Oh yeah coordination with troops where? The fact is that there was literally three footages of strikes from Harpy/Harop captured by over-watch UAV's. Beyond that there was no single movement footage from UAV on Azeri side. If anything the secrecy surrounding this "exercise" is very convenient.

    I bring up exactly the fact that a limited range, organic at platoon, company level UAV was shot, probably by the very same company the damn UAV team was embedded with. It also shows that your guys in the field can't PID their own UAV's (or that they haven't actually seen them and therefore the guys operating them were an independent outfit).

    We can have this discussion day and night and I can point out why this "exercise" was going to run afoul if more fighting was to be had. In a sense the Azeris were very good to capitalize on their "advances". However, there's little sense to halt your march if your coordination is that effective and your troops can work along that well. The fact again that you can lose one whole stick/section of "SOF" is far worrisome than you explaining me this wasn't a war, but that your side started using a couple of millions just to show-off and potentially weed out the surprise effect.

    Armenians aren't dumb and this openly also challenges Russia's role in the NKR deal. It was a very stupid decision to boast in that way whatever advantage you might have over the NKR side. Because now they're going to get help. Not because Russia loves Armenia or NKR, but because Azeris claim they've tipped the balance in the Region. Which goes directly against Russian interest.

    Once again. This is a very good way to create a fiasco in the future...like in Ivory Coast when Israeli teams helped the Ivorians obliterate a French patrol, only to be emasculated by the French troops. Remember these words, Israelis are not your friends. Neither are the Russians.

    Edit also posting a Harpy/Orbiter 1( which is a smaller harpy) as a tactical "surveillance" drone while it has about 4h of max endurance and about 450km of range...LOL.

    No, I don't have any interest in talking to your gibberish "day and night". And where did you see any "chest-beating" here?

    It seems you have totally misunderstood what Harop does or can do if you compare it to Predator.

    The tanks were knocked out with ATGM (that had top attack capability, Azerbaijan has Spike and LAHAT with such capabilities). The one attack with cars parked around might have been with a Harop, but not sure about the other one where it shows a completly destroyed building. I will not even bother about the rest.

    That comment shows just how clueless you are. Russia sold arms worth more than $4 billion (or about $5 billion) to Azerbaijan in the past few years. Medvedev and Rogozin stated a few days ago that Russia has no intention of halting the arms sales to Azerbaijan. And Armenia? A $200 million credit for "balance". Balance in quotation because anyone can see the disparity here.

    Lol once again, you're really drinking the patriotic kool aid. Tell me what does it look like? Russia will sell Azerbaijan what ever it needs for a war that will a: Never Happen (Greek Scenario) or b: will get Azerbaijan kicked to the curb (Georgian, Iraqi scenario). Not the first time oil economies get armed to the teeth only to then dismantled in detail by proxy or directly.

    Tanks were knocked out with Lahat on board what helicopter (don't tell me it was that Mil Mi 24G) ? In the same sense Using Spike or Harop is basically the same idea. The tanks were picked up as opportunity targets not exactly as a push. Also I haven't misunderstood the Harop, the it seems the Azeris have missunderstood it. If we take your word for granted and using open sources, they've lost as many Harops from Armenian fire as they might have used for a strike. (I count 4 shot/downed and about 4 used to strike). That's a 50% rate.

    You tell me I spew gibberish? The material loss from the Azeri side, that we can verify, is still enormous for a 3 day flare up. Russia has lost 12/15 UAV's in Eastern Ukraine over basically 18 months of conflict.

    You lost the same amount of "tactical" UAV's in 3 days.

    I compare the Harop to the Predator to distinguish it. If the Harops were used as a support weapon (which tactically they are) there was no follow up. They were just sent flying over Armenian lines to pick up targets, although there was no real push to exploit whatever damage those harops were going to do. Basically they were used in the same sense the Israelis use them. With the only difference that Israel uses them for perimeter defence so far, not micro tactical weapons.

    You're so much drowned in the Azeri ***** BS, that you don't see that basically you're another client state, whose relevance (just like Armenia) is going to be determined from the scale of tolerance the regional powers are going to allow you.

    Last time I checked there's no Russian base in Azerbaijan...

    Apparently few Mi17s have been fitted with LAHAT launchers and following equipment:





    "The Heliborne LAHAT system comprises IAI’s MOSP3000D observation payload with designation capabilities, a Weapons Control System (WCS) and two quad pack missile launchers. In October 2013 IAI announced an award of a ‘substantial contract’ for the delivery of LAHAT missile systems, to be used as a primary weapon system for combat helicopters."
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:02 pm

    http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/armenians-are-wrong-complain-moscow-arming-azerbaijan-really-their-advantage/ri13929

    Good read. Why Moscow sold arms to both Azerbaijan and Armenia and why Armenia's reactions were unfounded but understandable. Another Armenian gives his pov in comments section.

    AttilaA

    Posts : 153
    Points : 184
    Join date : 2011-10-13

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:20 pm

    You are assuming that Harops were used to target Armenian tanks and I don't know why. According to Armenians themselves they lost 14 tank and 4 BMP, it seems like you are counting way less.

    This T-72 was destroyed with an ATGM while trying to conceal itself behind that "hill". Spike has the capability to hit concealed targets.



    Again, you don't know what tactics were employed with Harop, or its success rate (obviously Armenians are not going to reveal successful Harop strikes. Don't expect Azerbaijan to give such specific information either).
    avatar
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 3911
    Points : 3938
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:00 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    AttilaA wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Frankly I'm getting pissed by the level of cheast-beating here.

    For a limited action the Azeris have lost at least 6 over-watch drones, including one they shot down themselves. 6 of them in 2 to 3 days of action. They've lost at least an helicopter that wasn't shot from an RPG but MOST probably from an medium range heavy SAM. Not ManPads. They've lost at least 3 Harops that didn't deton.

    The Harops were used as stand alone UAV/S with no follow up. In at least two cases the Harops were filmed by Armenian side (and probably shot down). Using a tactical weapon without exploitation group is useless, if you claim to have it support your ground troops. It's retarded. Even ISIS follows up their VBIEDS with an infantry push. Wtf are you talking about?

    Israelis Use Harpys/Harops as a point defence tool to deter Qassam/Mortar teams  (before that would have been targeted by Tamuz). Now they can loiter and pick up those teams without needing to fire up the radars or perimeter sensors.

    Here the Harops were used to hit a range of targets from AFV's to C2/3 centres. They were used as bird of prey, not actually as a support element. A support element like the damn motherfucking predators that would support and clear shit for US troops in Afghanistan, we've seen QUITE a lot. And they're close knitted with the guys on the ground. Let alone having US marines shooting down, from the ground, just for fun their own UAV.


    Oh yeah coordination with troops where? The fact is that there was literally three footages of strikes from Harpy/Harop captured by over-watch UAV's. Beyond that there was no single movement footage from UAV on Azeri side. If anything the secrecy surrounding this "exercise" is very convenient.

    I bring up exactly the fact that a limited range, organic at platoon, company level UAV was shot, probably by the very same company the damn UAV team was embedded with. It also shows that your guys in the field can't PID their own UAV's (or that they haven't actually seen them and therefore the guys operating them were an independent outfit).

    We can have this discussion day and night and I can point out why this "exercise" was going to run afoul if more fighting was to be had. In a sense the Azeris were very good to capitalize on their "advances". However, there's little sense to halt your march if your coordination is that effective and your troops can work along that well. The fact again that you can lose one whole stick/section of "SOF" is far worrisome than you explaining me this wasn't a war, but that your side started using a couple of millions just to show-off and potentially weed out the surprise effect.

    Armenians aren't dumb and this openly also challenges Russia's role in the NKR deal. It was a very stupid decision to boast in that way whatever advantage you might have over the NKR side. Because now they're going to get help. Not because Russia loves Armenia or NKR, but because Azeris claim they've tipped the balance in the Region. Which goes directly against Russian interest.

    Once again. This is a very good way to create a fiasco in the future...like in Ivory Coast when Israeli teams helped the Ivorians obliterate a French patrol, only to be emasculated by the French troops. Remember these words, Israelis are not your friends. Neither are the Russians.

    Edit also posting a Harpy/Orbiter 1( which is a smaller harpy) as a tactical "surveillance" drone while it has about 4h of max endurance and about 450km of range...LOL.

    No, I don't have any interest in talking to your gibberish "day and night". And where did you see any "chest-beating" here?

    It seems you have totally misunderstood what Harop does or can do if you compare it to Predator.

    The tanks were knocked out with ATGM (that had top attack capability, Azerbaijan has Spike and LAHAT with such capabilities). The one attack with cars parked around might have been with a Harop, but not sure about the other one where it shows a completly destroyed building. I will not even bother about the rest.

    That comment shows just how clueless you are. Russia sold arms worth more than $4 billion (or about $5 billion) to Azerbaijan in the past few years. Medvedev and Rogozin stated a few days ago that Russia has no intention of halting the arms sales to Azerbaijan. And Armenia? A $200 million credit for "balance". Balance in quotation because anyone can see the disparity here.

    Lol once again, you're really drinking the patriotic kool aid. Tell me what does it look like? Russia will sell Azerbaijan what ever it needs for a war that will a: Never Happen (Greek Scenario) or b: will get Azerbaijan kicked to the curb (Georgian, Iraqi scenario). Not the first time oil economies get armed to the teeth only to then dismantled in detail by proxy or directly.

    Tanks were knocked out with Lahat on board what helicopter (don't tell me it was that Mil Mi 24G) ? In the same sense Using Spike or Harop is basically the same idea. The tanks were picked up as opportunity targets not exactly as a push. Also I haven't misunderstood the Harop, the it seems the Azeris have missunderstood it. If we take your word for granted and using open sources, they've lost as many Harops from Armenian fire as they might have used for a strike. (I count 4 shot/downed and about 4 used to strike). That's a 50% rate.

    You tell me I spew gibberish? The material loss from the Azeri side, that we can verify, is still enormous for a 3 day flare up. Russia has lost 12/15 UAV's in Eastern Ukraine over basically 18 months of conflict.

    You lost the same amount of "tactical" UAV's in 3 days.

    I compare the Harop to the Predator to distinguish it. If the Harops were used as a support weapon (which tactically they are) there was no follow up. They were just sent flying over Armenian lines to pick up targets, although there was no real push to exploit whatever damage those harops were going to do. Basically they were used in the same sense the Israelis use them. With the only difference that Israel uses them for perimeter defence so far, not micro tactical weapons.

    You're so much drowned in the Azeri ***** BS, that you don't see that basically you're another client state, whose relevance (just like Armenia) is going to be determined from the scale of tolerance the regional powers are going to allow you.

    Last time I checked there's no Russian base in Azerbaijan...

    Apparently few Mi17s have been fitted with LAHAT launchers and following equipment:





    "The Heliborne LAHAT system comprises IAI’s MOSP3000D observation payload with designation capabilities, a Weapons Control System (WCS) and two quad pack missile launchers. In October 2013 IAI announced an award of a ‘substantial contract’ for the delivery of LAHAT missile systems, to be used as a primary weapon system for combat helicopters."

    Yeah which is even less survivable than the Mil Mi 24G...

    AttilA: I'm assuming they were used as they were taught, to the people using them. Loiter and strike. That's not exactly a support setup.

    I count from Armenian sources and open data, 8 Harops used at least. 4 we know were driven down to bits (including the funny video you said was an Harop/Harpy going for the kill, while the drone actually hits almost from zenith).

    avatar
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 3911
    Points : 3938
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:35 am

    Also for those in the Armenian corner; know thy enemy...

    http://www.inss.org.il/uploadImages/systemFiles/adkan17_4ENG_7_Lindenstrauss.pdf
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5537
    Points : 5578
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Militarov on Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:56 am

    Armenian President & DM fly to Karabakh in helicopter to meet Karabakh president:






    AttilaA

    Posts : 153
    Points : 184
    Join date : 2011-10-13

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:58 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Yeah which is even less survivable than the Mil Mi 24G...

    Are you even aware of Azerbaijan's purchase of Mi-35Ms from Russia? Seeing as how you put all the emphasize on Mi-24G.
    avatar
    KoTeMoRe

    Posts : 3911
    Points : 3938
    Join date : 2015-04-21
    Location : Krankhaus Central.

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:28 pm

    AttilaA wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Yeah which is even less survivable than the Mil Mi 24G...

    Are you even aware of Azerbaijan's purchase of Mi-35Ms from Russia? Seeing as how you put all the emphasize on Mi-24G.

    I'm not aware that the 35M's were equipped to use the LAHAT. To the contrary, I'm aware that an existing number of helicopters from Azeri forces were given the ATE treatment.

    On a side note ATE's "Super Hind" isn't anything worse than the 35M when survivability is regarded. Especially when compared to Medium range SAM's like the OSA. Both are gong down.

    Also the helicopter downed was a Super Hind (24G)...because of 20mm GIAT casings found on the area.

    Here 20x139 GIAT



    Here at 0:33 Same 20x139 GIAT.



    Blimey mate, this is no run of the mill rambling.

    Basically the Armenians downed your best close contact asset when they had the opportunity. They will do the same with anything that isn't supersonic. Irrelevant where it comes from.

    AttilaA

    Posts : 153
    Points : 184
    Join date : 2011-10-13

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  AttilaA on Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:46 pm

    Where did I say that Mi-35Ms use LAHAT? As for Mi-17 with LAHAT, they are not supposed to go near of the main enemy forces.

    Everything you have said so far has been based upon your own speculation. How do you know in what circumstances the Mi-24G was shot down? Again it seems you don't grasp the fact that this was limited in scope, real "war" actions would have looked very different in terms of targeted assets and involvement of forces.

    Interesting how you are eager to draw a conclusion based on one helicopter (in several posts of yours) and nothing about the 18 AFV of the Armenian side which was a really huge loss for just 2 days.


    Last edited by AttilaA on Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Sponsored content

    Re: Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:53 pm