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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

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    Vann7
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:52 pm

    The next video is a must see.. shows whats really going on with United Sates behind the scenes.
    The reason why they are in a soft war with Russia and why the nation is moving into a totalitarian police
    state ,where the government will be fully interfering with with their civilians lives on a full time basis because
    they Fear a major revolution against them and lose power. Is the interview to one very successful businessman
    millionaire ,Holywood filmmaker that have amazing movies ,which the NEOCONS elite (who push for world wars.. and one world government ruled by them.) tried to recruit him to become part of the banking American-jewish Cartel Mafia ,who is enemy of humanity and try to conquer the entire world. he talks about the agenda of the western Neocon Elite  for US and the entire world. Must See!! people will think differently about "Democracy " after this.



    Flyingdutchman
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:18 pm

    You people mad at TR1 or something?

    arpakola
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    Kien uses balistic missiles !!!

    Post  arpakola on Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:33 pm




    sepheronx
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:42 pm

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-29/eu-announces-new-washington-pleasing-russia-wristslap-sanctions

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Regular on Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:12 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:A resource of mine claims that we intend to create unrest at Kherson. He has good information. We will see if he proves correct.
    You seem to have very good sources. Everything looks very positive. Especially situation with Lugansk. Pure win for seps.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Regular on Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:13 pm

    arpakola wrote:

    Didn't Russia do the same in 888 war? It's still better than shelling cities using grads..


    Last edited by Regular on Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Hannibal Barca
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:21 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:A resource of mine claims that we intend to create unrest at Kherson. He has good information. We will see if he proves correct.
    You seem to have very good sources. Everything looks very positive. Especially situation with Lugansk. Pure win for seps.


    It pains you?

    etaepsilonk
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  etaepsilonk on Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:24 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:A resource of mine claims that we intend to create unrest at Kherson. He has good information. We will see if he proves correct.
    You seem to have very good sources. Everything looks very positive. Especially situation with Lugansk. Pure win for seps.

    You know what, no matter if seps will win or lose, this war will be forever remembered by idiotic and retarded propaganda of epic proportions.
    "Locals forced to kneel before putin" is one of my favs  Wink 
    http://www.delfi.lt/news/daily/world/ukrainoje-terorizuojami-gyventojai-sako-kad-turime-atsiklaupti-pries-v-putina.d?id=65100091

    Strizh
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Strizh on Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:58 pm

    A real HERO!

    During the recon militia squad stumbled upon the large enemy group. His squad was outnumbered, so he took the main strike upon himself ordered his men to retreat, lost his hand but kept covering retreat of his boys with one hand torn away. He kept fighting until lost his consciousness. Yesterday there were reports of his death. By morning militias returned to collect body of their commander back. But it turned out that he was alive. He was taken to hospital.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=767_1406649307

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Regular on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:15 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:A resource of mine claims that we intend to create unrest at Kherson. He has good information. We will see if he proves correct.
    You seem to have very good sources. Everything looks very positive. Especially situation with Lugansk. Pure win for seps.


    It pains you?
    Actually it does. This whole conflict is disgusting.

    sepheronx
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:52 pm

    I keep reading on mp.net of Russian agression this and that, but no one has evidence to back up claims. What aggression?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  medo on Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:02 pm

    Сводки от ополчения Новороссии
    29.07.2014 22:48 Сообщение от Федора Березина, заместителя И. И. Стрелкова.

    "Вчера в Шахтерске случилась Прохоровка нашего времени.
    Общие потери бронетехники врага за вчерашний день в Шахтерске 125 (сто двадцать пять) машин, включая танки, БМП, бронетранспортеры. Умножаем на количество экипажей - получаем совсем внушительный результат.
    Мы ж предупреждали, или как? Пошли вон из Донбасса! А вы не верили. Мамки, женки, сестрицы! Забирайте своих укро-воинов назад. А то вовсе лишитесь генофонда укро-нации. Где майданы по случаю призывов? Порошенко, тебя ж, шоколадный, скоро свои же раздерут".

    It seems in direction to Shahtersk, Saur Mogila and Torez were really heavy battles. If this report could be confirmed as true, than Ukrainian army lost 125 armored vehicles around Shahtersk (tanks, BMPs, BTRs,...). This is whole armored brigade. True, that Ukraine inherite large numbers of armored vehicles after USSR, but they sell many of them (more than 1000 tanks), many were cannibalized for spare parts, so how many armor they have in reserves and in working condition? I think they will be soon out of reserves and their number in battlefield will start decreasing. It seems Ukraine lost more armored vehicles in those two months, than Russian army in whole Chechen campaign.

    Considering Kiev have the third mobilization now in few months, this indicate Ukrainian army really have big losses.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:35 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I keep reading on mp.net of Russian agression this and that, but no one has evidence to back up claims.  What aggression?

    Why do you "read" mp.ret? scratch   confused

    Read Voice of Sevastopol instead.

    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:09 am

    Where is the Macedonian, guys? Haven't heard from him for a while.


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:05 am; edited 1 time in total

    mutantsushi
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  mutantsushi on Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:18 am

    medo wrote:It seems in direction to Shahtersk, Saur Mogila and Torez were really heavy battles. If this report could be confirmed as true, than Ukrainian army lost 125 armored vehicles around Shahtersk (tanks, BMPs, BTRs,...). This is whole armored brigade. True, that Ukraine inherite large numbers of armored vehicles after USSR, but they sell many of them (more than 1000 tanks), many were cannibalized for spare parts, so how many armor they have in reserves and in working condition? I think they will be soon out of reserves and their number in battlefield will start decreasing.
    I know I saw some piece talking about Odessa ports receiving Soviet tanks from Romania or other US friendly countries. Ukraine may have sold those tanks, but there is alot of stock that can probably be found on open market (or from former Warsaw pact/ now NATO/NATO-friendly countries who still have in their own stock) and transferred to Kiev, more or less immediately being able to be used with Kiev's ammo/parts stocks and training, probably in better condition than average Ukrainian stock.

    Vann7
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:12 am


    Anyone knows which Tocka missiles Ukraine have?

    There is Scarab A , B and C. And the precision is not very good . in the first A model.. their precision is 200m

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTR-21_Tochka

    Wiki also days Ukraine have about 90 of them. Thats a huge number and could pose a major danger to Russia if fired on their cities or the Rebels .

    dionis
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  dionis on Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:00 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Anyone knows which Tocka missiles Ukraine have?

    There is Scarab A , B and C.  And the precision is not very good . in the first A model.. their precision is 200m

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTR-21_Tochka

    Wiki also days Ukraine have about 90 of them. Thats a huge number and could pose a major danger to Russia if fired on their cities or the Rebels .

    If Russia gets a whiff that Ukrainian forces launched Tochkas into Russian territory - civilian or military targets, they will get squashed. This time by more than supposed T-64s transferred from Russia or what not.. They know it, so they are going to avoid it at all costs.


    I'm more interested to know if the Russians can park some S-300Vs on the border and get some ABM defense training in...

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:26 am

    [quote="dionis"]
    Vann7 wrote:

    If Russia gets a whiff that Ukrainian forces launched Tochkas into Russian territory - civilian or military targets, they will get squashed. This time by more than supposed T-64s transferred from Russia or what not.. They know it, so they are going to avoid it at all costs.

    .

    But see the whole picture..  
    You really think US and NATO allies doesn't know Russia can squash Ukraine in combat and they stand not a chance
    in war if Russia invade?  The west wants Russia to invade Ukraine ,so that they can achieve a political ,world opinion and diplomatic victory.  Because in the case of Russia ,it doesn't matter if Russia can crush Ukraine.. the question is Can Russia Crush Ukraine army ,while winning the hearts of majority of Ukraine citizens? and without a negative impact in Russia economy? No they can't.  Ukrainians are Zombies ,that have been fooled that the EU and USA are their friends. and they need to be awakened from that Curse that have their brains in retard mode. From my point of view NATO goals is an economic and public relations war.  I don't think they want to fight Russia in a frontal attack but in a proxy one..But for that they need a total Rusophobic nation first . They want more an economic war where it hurts more Russia ,a decade long Vietnam or IRAQ war ,to destroy their economy and to destroy their world image.  They want to totally destroy the relations between Ukraine and Russia in a way they never could be restored again. And since NATO media controls the local information that Ukrainians receive... that is CNN,BBC.. "it was a Putin's missile" " Putin killed my son".  It will be very easy for them to brainwash ukrainians and promote a major HATE in the Ukraine society towards Russia using their media ,fabricated reports  and more false flag events like the Malasyan plane ,and all blamed in Putin.

    To really counter western long term plans in Ukraine and reverse the White House coup in kiev ,placing in power banderaNAzis, Russia needs to break the spell of ignorance on ukrainian society ,so that they can see Russia is not their enemy.. but NATO and they fully understand the games being played against them.

    This is mostly the reason Russia avoid to enter Ukraine as much a possible. Ukraine will collapse is economy, is a sinking ship. And the west will be in Serious .. serious problems if Ukrainians think ,that joining the EU was not a good idea after all and they were deceived about the prosperity promised. It will be a major defeat for the white house ,if Russia manage to convince vast majority of Ukrainian citizens that they are their brothers and that is better to join Russia. It will be a CRIMEA scenario but in nearly all Ukraine.  Cool 

    This is why Russia do their best to try to avoid as much as possible to have to invade Ukraine. Of course they also needs to help the Rebels too ,to save civilians too . Because if kiev wins. it will be very easy for Kiev to remove all kiev  resistance in eastern Ukraine from their properties and deploy them in the west.  And if necessary import from all Europe Ultra Radicals Rusophobic people and install them in previous PRO Russian cities to create a very hostile nation to Russia that will seek nuclear weapons too.  To create another Poland but at the borders of Russia main land ..Thats the goal. Turn Ukraine into the most hostile nation to Russia in the world. Not only Government but also all citizens. And Russia needs to show them ,they are not their enemies and that they are being deceived by the west.

    In the very long run however.. Russia will win. one way or the other.. as long they continue keeping its distance from the conflict while at the same time showing Russia is not their enemy.Even if kiev wins the war and Russia do nothing different of what they have been doing ,the west will not maintain the support of Ukraine ,as soon they feel hungry and have have no food . They instead will feel angry ,cheated and deceived by them ,about the big pile of shit promises they were told that joining the EU will solve their problems ,turn into gold their streets and make their nation very prosperous and modern.  Wink

    Russia have very High probabilities to win Ukraine back at this time. This is regardless of the outcome of the military conflict and let say Rebels routed back to Russia.  (If Rebels hold their position will be much better however will save many civilians lives and will speed the collapse of Ukraine.).  As long Russia do not do what the west want ,that is lose their patience and declare a full scale war against Kiev ,while at the same time giving support to the Rebels, so they can hold and save their lives. So is a delicate balance , but so far from my point of view, Russia already won the conflict ,because even Ukraine army have developed some trust in Russia and Rebels. and are using Russia territory as a safe zone to retreat from the combat or look for an hospital and return to their families if desire. All this show ,the white house plans are not working the way they intended ,their only hope is damage Russia economy with sanctions as much as possible,false flag attacks and provoke Russia and Ukraine hate.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:43 am; edited 4 times in total

    Sujoy
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:03 am

    Maybe the Telar was carrying a Painting Radar .

    However, the 9M38M1 missile carries a radar proximity fuse . In the absence of an Acquisition Radar how on Earth was it able to hit the MH-17 ?


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Airbornewolf on Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:41 am

    this is from an millitary friend of mine, that like myself starts to believe that MH-17 survived the initial attack, and like it showed on Russian Radar data changed course drastically and began to turn back but in parameters of aircraft design before desintegrating mid-air.

    we cant just find any aircraft fuselage pictures that would suggest an vertical fragmentation warhead directed at MH-17. only horizontal directed damage to MH-17's fuselage. what mostly looks like the effect of an Minigun has at close range.

    this is a deleted BBC report.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:13 am

    Airbornewolf wrote:this is from an millitary friend of mine, that like myself starts to believe that MH-17 survived the initial attack, and like it showed on Russian Radar data changed course drastically and began to turn back but in parameters of aircraft design before desintegrating mid-air.

    we cant just find any aircraft fuselage pictures that would suggest an vertical fragmentation warhead directed at MH-17. only horizontal directed damage to MH-17's fuselage. what mostly looks like the effect of an Minigun has at close range.

    this is a deleted BBC report.


    Oh wow.. I missed that video..
    There are civilians there near the crash site.. witness saying they saw a military aircraft chasing the plane..  Very Happy 
    That will explain why BBC deleted the video..  Laughing   The womens testimony totally contradict kiev claims that they
    did not have planes that day active in the warzone. and fully backup Russian Radars images of a Su-25 chasing and the malasyan plane just minutes before the plane crash. This is witness testimony can totally destroy the idea the Rebels did it.. since this is real first hand evidence that a military plane was behind the malsyan plane when it was on fire .  Shocked    Smile 

    What is also interesting from the video.. is that the visibility was very good that day.. and civilians could see
    a commercial airliner with plain sight at 10,000 m altitude, which is perfectly possible. So if the visibility was very good that good.. the theory of "Rebels by mistake" shot down makes it totally impossible. Specially when Rebels have binoculars. So either only possibilities are the Rebels though it will be fun to shoot down a commercial airliner "just for fun " and did it, or Kiev shoot down the plane to frame the Rebels and earn world support in their criminal war or it was a "Putin's missile" .  Wink
     

      I don't think however that all the evidence in the world will do anything. if US (the Dog) says Rebels did it.. then the EU , (the tail) will follow.. Something like an Ukraine  pilot defecting with its plane to Russia saying he did it .. however will  be incredibly more embarrassing to hide by the west and its media.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  arpakola on Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:07 pm

    Олег Ляшко захватил мэра Стаханова и обвинил его в терроризме
    http://lifenews.ru/news/137558

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    Situation in Novorossiya

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:18 pm

    This map shows relatively significant improvement of the situation for Novorossiya on the 30th.



    If this map is any depiction of the reality, one of the important facts it points to is that the help Russia is giving Novorossiya is extremely minimal; with only a tiny amount of artillery and aviation help from Russia, the encircled Nazi groupings would have gotten annihilated within minutes, instead of surviving for days and weeks.

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    Obama Should Release Ukraine Evidence

    Post  arpakola on Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:28 pm

    Obama Should Release Ukraine Evidence
    http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/

    With the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine turning a local civil war into a U.S. confrontation with Russia, U.S. intelligence veterans urge President Obama to release what evidence he has about the tragedy and silence the hyperbole.

    MEMORANDUM FOR: The President

    FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

    SUBJECT: Intelligence on Shoot-Down of Malaysian Plane

    Executive Summary

    U.S.–Russian tensions are building in a precarious way over Ukraine, and we are far from certain that your advisers fully appreciate the danger of escalation. The New York Times and other media outlets are treating sensitive issues in dispute as flat-fact, taking their cue from U.S. government sources.

    Twelve days after the shoot-down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, your administration still has issued no coordinated intelligence assessment summarizing what evidence exists to determine who was responsible – much less to convincingly support repeated claims that the plane was downed by a Russian-supplied missile in the hands of Ukrainian separatists.

    Secretary of State John Kerry addresses reporters on July 23, 2014, in Ramallah, West Bank. (U.S. government photo)
    Secretary of State John Kerry addresses reporters on July 23, 2014, in Ramallah, West Bank. (U.S. government photo)
    Your administration has not provided any satellite imagery showing that the separatists had such weaponry, and there are several other “dogs that have not barked.” Washington’s credibility, and your own, will continue to erode, should you be unwilling – or unable – to present more tangible evidence behind administration claims. In what follows, we put this in the perspective of former intelligence professionals with a cumulative total of 260 years in various parts of U.S. intelligence.



    We, the undersigned former intelligence officers want to share with you our concern about the evidence adduced so far to blame Russia for the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. We are retired from government service and none of us is on the payroll of CNN, Fox News, or any other outlet. We intend this memorandum to provide a fresh, different perspective.

    As veteran intelligence analysts accustomed to waiting, except in emergency circumstances, for conclusive information before rushing to judgment, we believe that the charges against Russia should be rooted in solid, far more convincing evidence. And that goes in spades with respect to inflammatory incidents like the shoot-down of an airliner. We are also troubled by the amateurish manner in which fuzzy and flimsy evidence has been served up – some of it via “social media.”

    As intelligence professionals we are embarrassed by the unprofessional use of partial intelligence information. As Americans, we find ourselves hoping that, if you indeed have more conclusive evidence, you will find a way to make it public without further delay. In charging Russia with being directly or indirectly responsible, Secretary of State John Kerry has been particularly definitive. Not so the evidence. His statements seem premature and bear earmarks of an attempt to “poison the jury pool.”

    Painting Russia Black

    We see an eerie resemblance to an earlier exercise in U.S. “public diplomacy” from which valuable lessons can be learned by those more interested in the truth than in exploiting tragic incidents for propaganda advantage. We refer to the behavior of the Reagan administration in the immediate aftermath of the shoot-down of Korean Airlines Flight 007 over Siberia on August 30, 1983. We sketch out below a short summary of that tragic affair, since we suspect you have not been adequately briefed on it. The parallels will be obvious to you.

    An advantage of our long tenure as intelligence officers is that we remember what we have witnessed first hand; seldom do we forget key events in which we played an analyst or other role. To put it another way, most of us “know exactly where we were” when a Soviet fighter aircraft shot down Korean Airlines passenger flight 007 over Siberia on August 30, 1983, over 30 years ago. At the time, we were intelligence officers on “active duty.” You were 21; many of those around you today were still younger.

    Thus, it seems possible that you may be learning how the KAL007 affair went down, so to speak, for the first time; that you may now become more aware of the serious implications for U.S.-Russian relations regarding how the downing of Flight 17 goes down; and that you will come to see merit in preventing ties with Moscow from falling into a state of complete disrepair. In our view, the strategic danger here dwarfs all other considerations.

    Hours after the tragic shoot-down on August 30, 1983, the Reagan administration used its very accomplished propaganda machine to twist the available intelligence on Soviet culpability for the killing of all 269 people aboard KAL007. The airliner was shot down after it strayed hundreds of miles off course and penetrated Russia’s airspace over sensitive military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island. The Soviet pilot tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots did not respond to the repeated warnings. Amid confusion about the plane’s identity – a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity hours earlier – Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire.

    The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake. U.S. intelligence also knew from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder (much as on July 3, 1988, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian airliner over the Persian Gulf, killing 290 people, an act which President Ronald Reagan dismissively explained as an “understandable accident”).

    To make the very blackest case against Moscow for shooting down the KAL airliner, the Reagan administration suppressed exculpatory evidence from U.S. electronic intercepts. Washington’s mantra became “Moscow’s deliberate downing of a civilian passenger plane.” Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline “Murder in the Sky.” (Apparently, not much has changed; Time’s cover this week features “Cold War II” and “Putin’s dangerous game.” The cover story by Simon Shuster, “In Russia, Crime Without Punishment,” would merit an A-plus in William Randolph Hearst’s course “Yellow Journalism 101.”)

    When KAL007 was shot down, Alvin A. Snyder, director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, was enlisted in a concerted effort to “heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible,” as Snyder writes in his 1995 book, “Warriors of Disinformation.”

    He and his colleagues also earned an A-plus for bringing the “mainstream media” along. For example, ABC’s Ted Koppel noted with patriotic pride, “This has been one of those occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.”

    “Fixing” the Intelligence Around the Policy

    “The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” wrote Snyder, adding that the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council on September 6, 1983.

    Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts — including the portions that the Reagan administration had hidden — would he fully realize how many of the central elements of the U.S. presentation were false.

    The intercepts showed that the Soviet fighter pilot believed he was pursuing a U.S. spy aircraft and that he was having trouble in the dark identifying the plane. Per instructions from ground control, the pilot had circled the KAL airliner and tilted his wings to order the aircraft to land. The pilot said he fired warning shots, as well. This information “was not on the tape we were provided,” Snyder wrote.

    It became abundantly clear to Snyder that, in smearing the Soviets, the Reagan administration had presented false accusations to the United Nations, as well as to the people of the United States and the world. In his book, Snyder acknowledged his own role in the deception, but drew a cynical conclusion. He wrote, “The moral of the story is that all governments, including our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first.”

    The tortured attempts by your administration and stenographers in the media to blame Russia for the downing of Flight 17, together with John Kerry’s unenviable record for credibility, lead us to the reluctant conclusion that the syndrome Snyder describes may also be at work in your own administration; that is, that an ethos of “getting your own lie out first” has replaced “ye shall know the truth.” At a minimum, we believe Secretary Kerry displayed unseemly haste in his determination to be first out of the starting gate.

    Both Sides Cannot Be Telling the Truth

    We have always taken pride in not shooting from the hip, but rather in doing intelligence analysis that is evidence-based. The evidence released to date does not bear close scrutiny; it does not permit a judgment as to which side is lying about the shoot-down of Flight 17. Our entire professional experience would incline us to suspect the Russians – almost instinctively. Our more recent experience, particularly observing Secretary Kerry injudiciousness in latching onto one spurious report after another as “evidence,” has gone a long way toward balancing our earlier predispositions.

    It seems that whenever Kerry does cite supposed “evidence” that can be checked – like the forged anti-Semitic fliers distributed in eastern Ukraine or the photos of alleged Russian special forces soldiers who allegedly slipped into Ukraine – the “proof” goes “poof” as Kerry once said in a different context. Still, these misrepresentations seem small peccadillos compared with bigger whoppers like the claim Kerry made on August 30, 2013, no fewer than 35 times, that “we know” the government of Bashar al-Assad was responsible for the chemical incidents near Damascus nine days before.

    On September 3, 2013 – following your decision to call off the attack on Syria in order to await Congressional authorization – Kerry was still pushing for an attack in testimony before a thoroughly sympathetic Senate Foreign Affairs Committee. On the following day Kerry drew highly unusual personal criticism from President Putin, who said: “He is lying, and he knows he is lying. It is sad.”

    Equally serious, during the first week of September 2013, as you and President Vladimir Putin were putting the final touches to the deal whereby Syrian chemical weapons would be given up for destruction, John Kerry said something that puzzles us to this day. On September 9, 2013, Kerry was in London, still promoting a U.S. attack on Syria for having crossed the “Red Line” you had set against Syria’s using chemical weapons.

    At a formal press conference, Kerry abruptly dismissed the possibility that Bashar al-Assad would ever give up his chemical weapons, saying, “He isn’t about to do that; it can’t be done.” Just a few hours later, the Russians and Syrians announced Syria’s agreement to do precisely what Kerry had ruled out as impossible. You sent him back to Geneva to sign the agreement, and it was formally concluded on September 14.

    Regarding the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down of July 17, we believe Kerry has typically rushed to judgment and that his incredible record for credibility poses a huge disadvantage in the diplomatic and propaganda maneuvering vis-a-vis Russia. We suggest you call a halt to this misbegotten “public diplomacy” offensive. If, however, you decide to press on anyway, we suggest you try to find a less tarnished statesman or woman.

    A Choice Between Two

    If the intelligence on the shoot-down is as weak as it appears judging from the fuzzy scraps that have been released, we strongly suggest you call off the propaganda war and await the findings of those charged with investigating the shoot-down. If, on the other hand, your administration has more concrete, probative intelligence, we strongly suggest that you consider approving it for release, even if there may be some risk of damage to “sources and methods.” Too often this consideration is used to prevent information from entering the public domain where, as in this case, it belongs.

    There have been critical junctures in the past in which presidents have recognized the need to waive secrecy in order to show what one might call “a decent respect for the opinions of mankind” or even to justify military action.

    As senior CIA veteran Milton Bearden has put it, there are occasions when more damage is done to U.S. national security by “protecting” sources and methods than by revealing them. For instance, Bearden noted that Ronald Reagan exposed a sensitive intelligence source in showing a skeptical world the reason for the U.S. attack on Libya in retaliation for the April 5, 1986 bombing at the La Belle Disco in West Berlin. That bombing killed two U.S. servicemen and a Turkish woman, and injured over 200 people, including 79 U.S. servicemen.

    Intercepted messages between Tripoli and agents in Europe made it clear that Libya was behind the attack. Here’s an excerpt: “At 1:30 in the morning one of the acts was carried out with success, without leaving a trace behind.”

    Ten days after the bombing the U.S. retaliated, sending over 60 Air Force fighters to strike the Libyan capital of Tripoli and the city of Benghazi. The operation was widely seen as an attempt to kill Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, who survived, but his adopted 15-month-old daughter was killed in the bombing, along with at least 15 other civilians.

    Three decades ago, there was more shame attached to the killing of children. As world abhorrence grew after the U.S. bombing strikes, the Reagan administration produced the intercepted, decoded message sent by the Libyan Peoples Bureau in East Berlin acknowledging the “success” of the attack on the disco, and adding the ironically inaccurate boast “without leaving a trace behind.”

    The Reagan administration made the decision to give up a highly sensitive intelligence source, its ability to intercept and decipher Libyan communications. But once the rest of the world absorbed this evidence, international grumbling subsided and many considered the retaliation against Tripoli justified.

    If You’ve Got the Goods…

    If the U.S. has more convincing evidence than what has so far been adduced concerning responsibility for shooting down Flight 17, we believe it would be best to find a way to make that intelligence public – even at the risk of compromising “sources and methods.” Moreover, we suggest you instruct your subordinates not to cheapen U.S. credibility by releasing key information via social media like Twitter and Facebook.

    The reputation of the messenger for credibility is also key in this area of “public diplomacy.” As is by now clear to you, in our view Secretary Kerry is more liability than asset in this regard. Similarly, with regard to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, his March 12, 2013 Congressional testimony under oath to what he later admitted were “clearly erroneous” things regarding NSA collection should disqualify him. Clapper should be kept at far remove from the Flight 17 affair.

    What is needed, if you’ve got the goods, is an Interagency Intelligence Assessment – the genre used in the past to lay out the intelligence. We are hearing indirectly from some of our former colleagues that what Secretary Kerry is peddling does not square with the real intelligence. Such was the case late last August, when Kerry created a unique vehicle he called a “Government (not Intelligence) Assessment” blaming, with no verifiable evidence, Bashar al-Assad for the chemical attacks near Damascus, as honest intelligence analysts refused to go along and, instead, held their noses.

    We believe you need to seek out honest intelligence analysts now and hear them out. Then, you may be persuaded to take steps to curb the risk that relations with Russia might escalate from “Cold War II” into an armed confrontation. In all candor, we see little reason to believe that Secretary Kerry and your other advisers appreciate the enormity of that danger.

    In our most recent (May 4) memorandum to you, Mr. President, we cautioned that if the U.S. wished “to stop a bloody civil war between east and west Ukraine and avert Russian military intervention in eastern Ukraine, you may be able to do so before the violence hurtles completely out of control.” On July 18, you joined the top leaders of Germany, France, and Russia in calling for an immediate ceasefire. Most informed observers believe you have it in your power to get Ukrainian leaders to agree. The longer Kiev continues its offensive against separatists in eastern Ukraine, the more such U.S. statements appear hypocritical.

    We reiterate our recommendations of May 4, that you remove the seeds of this confrontation by publicly disavowing any wish to incorporate Ukraine into NATO and that you make it clear that you are prepared to meet personally with Russian President Putin without delay to discuss ways to defuse the crisis and recognize the legitimate interests of the various parties. The suggestion of an early summit got extraordinary resonance in controlled and independent Russian media. Not so in “mainstream” media in the U.S. Nor did we hear back from you.

    The courtesy of a reply is requested.

    Prepared by VIPS Steering Group

    William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)

    Larry Johnson, CIA & State Department (ret.)

    Edward Loomis, NSA, Cryptologic Computer Scientist (ret.)

    David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)

    Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)

    Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)

    Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)

    Peter Van Buren, U.S. Department of State, Foreign Service Officer (ret.)

    Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret.); Foreign Service Officer (resigned)

    Hannibal Barca
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:54 pm

    I had a crazy idea. I think Strelkov is just about great for the next president of Ukraine.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #7

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