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    Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

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    Werewolf
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Werewolf on Tue May 19, 2015 12:05 pm

    Tyloe wrote:it's clearly a photoshop on the original image

    What preposterous claim, don't you see this ship was designed to be commanded by 6 admirals!

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Tyloe on Tue May 19, 2015 12:10 pm

    According to Tass, the MoD confirmed that nuclear propulsion is now an official requirement thanks to the latest changes to the technical assignment for the destroyer program. The option for gas-turbine engines appears to be cancelled. Severnoye design bureau is currently working on a new concept following the technical requirements given and plan to complete it by next year. Whether the bureau is assigned for the final design is not known. Meanwhile the navy plans to order at least 12 units and slowly replace the Sovremennyy and Udaloy class destroyers, firstly those of Northern and Pacific Fleets. The need for nuclear power may show the class is required to have unlimited endurance so it can be deployed for maritime operations further abroad. Range appears to be an important aspect of the program.

    http://tass.ru/en/russia/795458

    franco
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  franco on Tue May 19, 2015 1:22 pm

    Tyloe wrote:According to Tass, the MoD confirmed that nuclear propulsion is now an official requirement thanks to the latest changes to the technical assignment for the destroyer program. The option for gas-turbine engines appears to be cancelled. Severnoye design bureau is currently working on a new concept following the technical requirements given and plan to complete it by next year. Whether the bureau is assigned for the final design is not known. Meanwhile the navy plans to order at least 12 units and slowly replace the Sovremennyy and Udaloy class destroyers, firstly those of Northern and Pacific Fleets. The need for nuclear power may show the class is required to have unlimited endurance so it can be deployed for maritime operations further abroad. Range appears to be an important aspect of the program.

    http://tass.ru/en/russia/795458

    From other articles and with the nuclear propulsion, it would appear that this new ship will be as large as the Slava cruisers if not larger.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  George1 on Tue May 19, 2015 1:41 pm

    Russian Navy’s new destroyer to be nuclear-powered, gas turbine option dropped — source

    This decision is prompted by the need to have an offshore maritime zone ship that can sail to unlimited distances, the source said

    MOSCOW, May 19. /TASS/. Russia’s Defense Ministry has amended a technical assignment for developing the Leader-type missile destroyer for the Navy, which will have a nuclear power unit as the sole option, a source in the defense industry said on Tuesday.

    "The Navy’s command has given up the development of the Leader ship with a gas turbine power unit. In accordance with the amendments in the technical assignment approved by the Defense Ministry, the conceptual designing involves only one option with a nuclear power unit," the source said.

    This decision is prompted by the need to have an offshore maritime zone ship that can sail to unlimited distances, he said.

    The Severnoye design bureau in St. Petersburg in northwest Russia is preparing the technical design, which is expected to "be completed in 2016," the source said.

    The Leader-type destroyers are set to replace Project 956 and Project 1155 ships. The Russian Navy intends to order 12 new destroyers, six for the Northern and six for the Pacific Fleet.

    Sources in the defense industry told TASS news agency the industry was ready to develop reactors for new destroyers but a nuclear power unit would cost more than the gas turbine version.

    The cruise missiles Caliber and Onyx or their modifications, as well as S-500 air defense systems capable of destroying targets in outer space, were previously mentioned as possible armaments for the Leader-type destroyers.

    A source in the defense industry told TASS the Russian Navy could get the next-generation lead destroyer no sooner than 2023-2025.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Tyloe on Tue May 19, 2015 2:26 pm

    franco wrote: From other articles and with the nuclear propulsion, it would appear that this new ship will be as large as the Slava cruisers if not larger.

    If you compare with other similar naval projects, the program for 12 units of Slava sized destroyers, with a displacement of around 10,000+ tons, would likely bring the costs somewhere between $10-20 billion. I wouldn't be surprised if the unit cost would be $1-2 billion a ship similar to Burkes and other heavy destroyers. It's unlikely to be as expensive as the CG(X) or the Zumwalt programs where it was around $3.4 billion a unit. Costs will still depend on how radical the design is but Leader is likely going be a conventionally structured stealth ship if its anything like the proposed concepts of the Severnoye Design Bereau.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue May 19, 2015 6:42 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:

    They just improved and modernized the design

    its like ice cream cone, add more scoops for more fun!

    and Werewolf whats with the nice attack helo avatar- looks like stealthified mi-28.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue May 19, 2015 7:17 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Tyloe wrote:it's clearly a photoshop on the original image

    What preposterous claim, don't you see this ship was designed to be commanded by 6 admirals!

    6 admirals who happened to be Buddhist monks.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Werewolf on Tue May 19, 2015 7:27 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Tyloe wrote:it's clearly a photoshop on the original image

    What preposterous claim, don't you see this ship was designed to be commanded by 6 admirals!

    6 admirals who happened to be Buddhist monks.

    Not water benders?

    mack8
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  mack8 on Wed May 20, 2015 1:10 am

    Tyloe and GD thank you for the input on the previous page, appreciated.

    Now, the news today are very interesting, it looks like the MoD considers cheaper to use a nuclear power plant rather than build an appropriate gas turbine? Reading on the subject on bastion-karpenko website, it looks like as of last year there were two alternatives envisaged for Leader - a 7,000 to 9,000t gas turbine variant and a 13,000-14,000t nuclear powered one, which is actually close to the stated displacement for pr.23560E. Would be very interesting to see the final design for VMF according to the TTZ when it will be unveiled by Severnoe. Maybe an evolved and enlarged 21956?

    If they indeed go nuclear, very likely the future carriers will also be nuclear.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 20, 2015 9:19 am

    Hopefully they will try one of their new more powerful nuclear reactors in an upgraded Kirov class vessel that replaces the complicated propulsion design currently used, and when upgrading the Kuznetsov perhaps a nuclear propulsion redesign could be considered too.

    Very simply a carrier group is only as fast as its slowest member so with a Kirov class vessel included it can go 32kntsfor about 2,000 nautical miles until the conventional fuel runs out and then it must run on its small nuke power unit at 16knts or 18knts or so...

    Obviously any refuelling tanker will be following at 16knts at most...


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed May 20, 2015 3:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:Hopefully they will try one of their new more powerful nuclear reactors in an upgraded Kirov class vessel that replaces the complicated propulsion design currently used, and when upgrading the Kuznetsov perhaps a nuclear propulsion redesign could be considered too.

    Very simply a carrier group is only as fast as its slowest member so with a Kirov class vessel included it can go 32kntsfor about 2,000 nautical miles until the conventional fuel runs out and then it must run on its small nuke power unit at 16knts or 18knts or so...

    Obviously any refueling tanker will be following at 16knts at most...

    Unless all AC-killers will be nuclear. Nuclear reactor is not only source of propulsion, all lasers, EM guns radars... Current solutions in nuke propulsion can be reactor and electric drives who told that it cannot be this way? imagine weight saved by replacing turbines and fuel with reactor + number of electrical drives. Not of mention level of noise...

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed May 20, 2015 3:19 pm

    Tyloe wrote:According to Tass, the MoD confirmed that nuclear propulsion is now an official requirement thanks to the latest changes to the technical assignment for the destroyer program. The option for gas-turbine engines appears to be cancelled. Severnoye design bureau is currently working on a new concept following the technical requirements given and plan to complete it by next year. Whether the bureau is assigned for the final design is not known. Meanwhile the navy plans to order at least 12 units and slowly replace the Sovremennyy and Udaloy class destroyers, firstly those of Northern and Pacific Fleets. The need for nuclear power may show the class is required to have unlimited endurance so it can be deployed for maritime operations further abroad. Range appears to be an important aspect of the program.


    12units? even more than Slavas+ Kirovs summed up. As a big fan of Soviet concept of Aircraft Carrying Cruiser I hope air-wing will have lotsa drones Smile

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  sepheronx on Wed May 20, 2015 3:36 pm

    Nuclear powered ships is where Russia excells in, far better than diesel electric. You will notice that they were much faster at building the nuclear powered ice breaker compared to the diesel electric one. I have a feeling it has more to do with the fact that most desiel electric ships use Ukrainian engines and there is maybe only one facility in Russia that makes diesel electric turbines for ships (saw it on sdelanounas). And there is demand for desiel electric already and not so much for nuclear as funding has pulled back a bit for the ice breaker (stupid imo as it was their successful one) and too many other ships call for desiel - frigates, corvettes.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  flamming_python on Wed May 20, 2015 3:53 pm

    There's one thing I don't understand about nuclear-powered capital ships and that's - how are they supposed to be able to use their advantage in range/endurance/etc... if all the other ships of their group are conventionally-powered?

    As GarryB mentions; the carrier-group is only as fast as its slowest ship.
    That goes for nuclear-powered ships too - they are only as fast the slowest member in their group, only as long-ranged as the shortest-ranged member in their group, can only stay out at sea as long as the fuel supplies of the other ships last, etc...

    The only thing it really helps is on relieving the fuel-consumption of the group as a whole - when its largest ships are nuclear powered and don't need any fuel themselves.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  sepheronx on Wed May 20, 2015 3:56 pm

    Ships like these are giant bomb trucks with the ability to defend itself from enemy aircrafts and missiles. Having a ship like this could help escort other ships to various destinations and back (auxillery ships are being concentrated on, even though they get little news, and such ships help increase overall endurance of other ships like able to refuel and such). Having such a ship parked off of the coast of syria without having to use the port to refuel or anything, is beneficial.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  George1 on Wed May 20, 2015 3:58 pm

    mack8 wrote: and a 13,000-14,000t nuclear powered one, which is actually close to the stated displacement for pr.23560E.

    in that case we clearly talk about cruiser class!!

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed May 20, 2015 7:42 pm


    flamming_python wrote:There's one thing I don't understand about nuclear-powered capital ships and that's - how are they supposed to be able to use their advantage in range/endurance/etc... if all the other ships of their group are conventionally-powered?

    As GarryB mentions; the carrier-group is only as fast as its slowest ship.
    That goes for nuclear-powered ships too - they are only as fast the slowest member in their group, only as long-ranged as the shortest-ranged member in their group, can only stay out at sea as long as the fuel supplies of the other ships last, etc...

    The only thing it really helps is on relieving the fuel-consumption of the group as a whole - when its largest ships are nuclear powered and don't need any fuel themselves.


    and what if doctrine will assume ¨Antarctica¨tams? consisting only from nuclear powered ships? AC/Leaders /SSNs maybe somewhat smaller destroyers? Antarctica penguins ro ensuring not rigger referendum on Malwinas might be worth it


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 21, 2015 8:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Kyo on Wed May 20, 2015 11:05 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:The new project  of AC 23000E Storm developed -according to RAI and JHS


    The length of the ship — 330 m, width — 40 meters, the displacement will be 90-100 thousand tons, maximum speed — 30 knots (cruising — 20), maximum draught of 11 metres. The carrier can hold 4000-5000 crew members and is able to perform combat missions at sea state up to 6-7 points. The site also adds that the current draft of the ship equipped with the standard powerplant, however, there is a possibility of its replacement by the nuclear engine.
    The wing of the ship will consist of 80-90 aircraft, also the possibility of basing fighter T-50 FESPACO and the MiG-29K, aircraft systems airborne early warning and control and of the family of helicopters Ka-27.

    sorry i cannot put links here

    The news was already posted in Future Russian Aircraft Carriers Thread:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2631p525-future-russian-aircraft-carriers

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu May 21, 2015 2:24 am

    They're weighing up whether to make the new destroyer supersructure out composite materials or aluminium

    The destroyer "Leader", which is likely to become the basis for a promising carrier in the Russian Federation might have a superstructure out of composite materials.

    This was reported to RIA Novosti on Wednesday, by the general director of the Mid-Nevsky Shipyard, Vladimir Seredoho.

    "Currently the project is considering a superstructure out of aluminum or composite. If the composite option is chosen, we will build it" - said Seredoho.

    РИА Новости http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150520/1065540284.html#ixzz3agAekoez

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 21, 2015 8:07 am

    Kyo wrote:

    The news was already posted in Future Russian Aircraft Carriers Thread:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2631p525-future-russian-aircraft-carriers

    Removed, apologies somehow i missed AC thread, i´ll double check next time.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Tyloe on Fri May 22, 2015 8:52 am

    Cyberspec wrote:They're weighing up whether to make the new destroyer supersructure out composite materials or aluminium

    The destroyer "Leader", which is likely to become the basis for a promising carrier in the Russian Federation might have a superstructure out of composite materials.

    This was reported to RIA Novosti on Wednesday, by the general director of the Mid-Nevsky Shipyard, Vladimir Seredoho.

    "Currently the project is considering a superstructure out of aluminum or composite. If the composite option is chosen, we will build it" - said Seredoho.

    РИА Новости http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150520/1065540284.html#ixzz3agAekoez

    Would this also confirm that OSK plans to construct the first units at the Mid-Nevsky Shipyard?

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  jhelb on Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:14 am

    GarryB wrote:Hopefully they will try one of their new more powerful nuclear reactors in an upgraded Kirov class vessel that replaces the complicated propulsion design currently used, and when upgrading the Kuznetsov perhaps a nuclear propulsion redesign could be considered too.

    Garry, the nuclear reactor for the Leader will be a new reactor.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:11 pm

    Leader -all missiles in VLS
    (so CIWS as well Morfey?)

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150611/1069415872.html

    MOSCOW, 11 Dec — RIA Novosti. Promising destroyer project Leader will be winged and armed with anti-aircraft missiles secretive home, told RIA Novosti on Thursday, a senior representative of the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation.
    "This will be the platform for 60 cruise missiles, not 24 like (nuclear guided missile cruiser — ed.) "Peter the Great", — said the interlocutor of the Agency, noting that all the missiles: both cruise and anti-aircraft will be stored in the mines.
    The project is being developed in the Central research Institute named Krylov, it is planned that the ship will be built with a nuclear power unit. The displacement of the ship will be 14 thousand tons, the crew will consist of 350 people.
    Bookmark brain destroyer at the plant "Severnaya Verf" in St. Petersburg will take place at the turn of 2017-2018.
    The model of the future destroyer type "Leader" will be first demonstrated at the opening on June 16 in Moscow the exhibition "Army-2015".






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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  mack8 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:09 pm

    From Armya-2015. Perhaps this is the "Leader" after all?
    http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/930493.html


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:59 pm

    mack8 wrote:From Armya-2015. Perhaps this is the "Leader" after all?
    http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/930493.html


    ...If that turns out to be the case, a lot of people will end up eating humble pie lol! lol1

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