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    Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:17 pm

    No lying, the mast looks like a Buddhist temple. lol1

    kvs
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  kvs on Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:45 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:No lying, the mast looks like a Buddhist temple. lol1

    The proportions are wrong in this toy model. It looks grossly unbalanced with this "temple". And there is no point
    for it to be this large anyway.

    GarryB
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:05 am

    A high mast is excellent for locating sensors... if you have very big sensors, or lots of sensors then you need a big mast.

    Obviously you don't want a lot of weight mounted up high so weapons should not be located there... mount the weapons as low in the hull as possible... vertical launch tubes being ideal in terms of low weight line and low RCS... internal weapons are always better.


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:00 pm

    An artists impression of the latest Leader design.



    wait a sec... where have I seen this before?.... Razz

    Viktor
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:39 pm

    14 000 ton nuclear monster coming up from 2017 thumbsup thumbsup


    Russia will provide a new type of destroyer "Leader" in 2017

    Werewolf
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:36 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:An artists impression of the latest Leader design.



    wait a sec...  where have I seen this before?....  Razz

    Looks like one of those ghost ships in movies, traveling through the oceans since hundreds of years, some monterosity..

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:23 am

    Werewolf wrote:Looks like one of those ghost ships in movies, traveling through the oceans since hundreds of years, some monterosity..

    The ship shown was the IJN Kirishima, a WW1 era Kongo-class battlecruiser rebuilt as a fast battleship in the 1930s, and sunk in Guadalcanal in the last battleship duel of WW2.

    I posted it in a (lame) attempt at humour to equate the old "pagoda" superstructure with modern stealth designs depicting high masts. I guess the intent was lost... oh well... such is life Smile

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  George1 on Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:51 pm

    Viktor wrote:14 000 ton nuclear monster coming up from 2017  thumbsup  thumbsup


    Russia will provide a new type of destroyer "Leader" in 2017

    Russia Building New Destroyer with Nuclear Power Unit

    The priority task when creating a new generation of destroyers is its equipment with nuclear power unit, Russian Navy Commander Admiral Viktor Chirkov told reporters on Friday in St. Petersburg.

    Currently, the effective forces of the Russian Navy have a surface ship with nuclear power unit – heavy nuclear missile cruiser “Petr Velikiy”.

    “We are currently executing the design and construction work of a new generation destroyer with a special propulsion system. The priority direction in the creation of the destroyer is a destroyer with a nuclear power unit,” Chirkov said.

    GarryB
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:27 am

    Hopefully if it is successful it might encourage them to consider other upgrades with new NPPs... that will bypass the bottleneck of gas turbine production/development with the loss of Ukrainian GTs and encourage the development of new more powerful NPPs for ships and subs.


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  kvs on Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:12 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Looks like one of those ghost ships in movies, traveling through the oceans since hundreds of years, some monterosity..

    The ship shown was the IJN Kirishima, a WW1 era Kongo-class battlecruiser rebuilt as a fast battleship in the 1930s, and sunk in Guadalcanal in the last battleship duel of WW2.

    I posted it in a (lame) attempt at humour to equate the old "pagoda" superstructure with modern stealth designs depicting high masts.  I guess the intent was lost...  oh well... such is life Smile



    The pagoda looks much more tame than on the Lider model. But it sure looks scary from the front.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:26 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Why is such a big mast necessary anyway, except making a ship with one incredibly hideous? Will russian future radars really be so bulky that they need this big christmas tree thingy to carry them?

    The higher the mast is the further away you can see in the horizon.

    Mast are generally bulky of you want all the Big Aperture for AESA , the bigger mast is directional propotional to the size of AESA array , if you need more number of arrays for a wider scan of view the size would be bigger.

    Check the latest Indian Destroyer P-15A mast size

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ix86hW_4iHA/U7-2Og5P4LI/AAAAAAAAWyk/F-jNASX025g/s1600/IMG_7772.JPG

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  George1 on Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:00 pm

    New Destroyer to Be Comparable with Cruise on Striking Power

    The new generation of destroyers of the Russian Navy will have a much larger displacement than its predecessors, and on the striking power will be comparable with the cruisers, the Defense Ministry said on Monday citing Navy Commander Admiral Viktor Chirkov.

    As it became known in late February, a priority when creating a new generation of destroyers is its nuclear power unit equipment. Now the Russian Navy has one surface ship with such installation – heavy nuclear missile cruiser “Petr Velikiy”.

    “This destroyer will have a much larger displacement than its predecessors in the class – the destroyers of the project 956. The striking power of the new destroyer will be comparable with the cruiser,” Chirkov said at the end of his working trip to Kolomna.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Tyloe on Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:52 pm



    Another photo of an unique and unconventional concept model taken from the Krylov State Research Centre last month. Although it's still very early to tell I see two ways in which the design of the Leader class might be. As a lower estimate, it will probably be a destroyer with a displacement of at least 7000+ tons, armed with 60+ VLS cells and 150+ meters long. The characteristics of this destroyer design would be conventionally similar to India's Kolkata-class and China's Type 052D class destroyers which are both armed with 64 VLS cells. These destroyers were designed to complement their modern Shivalik-class and the Type 054A frigates which both navies respectively operate, and they share similar dimensions to the Gorshkov-class frigate such as all three have 32 VLS cells and have a similar displacement of 4000 tons. India's and China's destroyers are also more heavily armed than contemporary European destroyers which most are only armed with around 40+ VLS cells, as their destroyers are designed according to the capabilities of their frigates. Should the future Russian Navy or budget require the Leader class destroyer to follow similar principles then it'll likely have similar characteristics to the Koltata class and the Type 052D.

    The higher estimate is that the Leader-class will be designed as modern heavily armed cruiser-esque destroyer. If this is the criteria then it will very likely have a displacement of 9000+ tons, armed with 90+ VLS cells, and 155+ meters long. From this estimate, it's quite possible that the design criteria will follow elements with other similar modern heavy destroyer classes that are in development or completed, such as Sejong the Great, Arleigh Burke flight III, Zumwalt, or the Type 055 which are blurring the line between destroyers and cruisers for their large size and armament.

    From this, I think the class is likely going for either the lower or higher estimates or somewhere between both depending on the requirements, budgeting, and priorities. From official details already given, the Leader-class will either have a strong air defence capability like those prioritised on contemporary western destroyers or the traditional focus on anti ship/submarine warfare as prioritised on Russia's older large surface combatants, or a balance between both depending on the future naval doctrine. Which ever is the true dimensions and characteristic are in the future, the class is symbolic of the new forth generation large surface ships for the Russian Navy.

    Flyingdutchman
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:17 pm

    I think nuclear power is a must for these new destroyers.
    Russia would be able to project power for a longer time further away from home.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:48 am

    If you want carrier groups for power projection then it is critical that each component is able to keep up with the rest of the fleet.

    No point having a carrier that can do 30knts if your air defence frigates can only do 30knts for 3,000 nautical miles and then need to be refuelled.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Austin on Fri May 15, 2015 12:42 pm

    Russian destroyer design revealed

    http://www.janes.com/article/51453/russian-destroyer-design-revealed



    A new class of destroyer for the Russian Navy is currently under development by the Krylov State Research Center (KSRC), IHS Jane's was told during a visit to the company.

    The new design is called Project 23560E or Shkval (Squall), KSRC's deputy director, Valery Polyakov, who added that a scale model of the design is going to be exhibited for the first time during the International Maritime Defence Show 2015 in St Petersburg from 1-5 July.

    "The Project 23560E destroyer is intended to conduct operations in off-shore maritime and oceanic zones, to destroy land and naval targets, to provide combat stability to naval forces, to maintain area anti-air and anti-missile defence, and to complete peacetime tasks in all zones of the world's oceans," said Polyakov.

    The Project 23560E destroyer has full-load displacement of 15,000-18,000 tons, a length of 200 m, beam of 23 m, draft of 6.6 m, high speed of 32 kt, cruise speed of 20 kt, endurance of 90 days, and a crew of 250-300.

    The destroyer is intended to be powered by a gas turbine engine (although Russia currently lacks any adequate sources for naval gas turbines). It is proposed to be fitted with a battle management system integrated with tactical and operational-tactical ACSs.

    The destroyer's armament comprises 60-70 anti-ship or anti-land cruise missiles, 128 surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), and 16-24 anti-submarine missiles. The ship is also equipped with a 130 mm multipurpose naval gun.


    The destroyer's integrated electronic package includes a multi-functional phased array radar, electronic warfare subsystem, communications suite, underwater reconnaissance system. The aviation wing consists of two utility helicopters. These specifications could all be changed to suit customer requirements however, Polyakov stated.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri May 15, 2015 6:32 pm

    Would've been extremely cool if the shitty looking pagoda mast had the form of the gorshkov or kirov classes... BTW there doesn't seem to be much room for many CIWS turrets. I'll be very dissapointed if there are less than 6 Kashtan turrets without pantsir...

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 16, 2015 8:22 am

    I suspect for future vessels a more stealthy Pantsir and perhaps klintock replacement Morfei system might be used... the latter being an ASRAAM like vertical launch lock on after launch weapon effectively functionally similar to Sea RAM but with vertical launch.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Tyloe on Sat May 16, 2015 10:07 am

    KSRC is only making destroyer/cruiser design proposals since a set of requirements haven't been issued yet by the navy. This is not the final design or its final requirements since other proposed models were showcased. I highly doubt the armament is going to be like that of Kirov if there's a plan for 10 or more units. If the class, as a next generation large combatant vessel, is aimed to slowly replace older destroyers and is required for mass production, then its design criteria is likely still subjected to change and debate. As of now, the possible requirements for nuclear propulsion, integration of the Poliment-Redut air defense system and Pantsir-M and Palash weapon systems, are the only things we know of this project.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  mack8 on Mon May 18, 2015 2:38 pm

    Gents, i'm trying to educate myself on this subject (future VMF destroyers i mean). So if i may pick your brains, what is the relation between the Severnoe DB project 21956 and the KSRC project 23560? Would they be competing or complementary projects? Or perhaps VMF is interested in only the 23560 (i know the E is for export, but presumably it's been designed aimed at the Leader program)?

    To me, based on what i can read, they sound very complementary, you have the top tier Shkval at 15-18,000 tons which may be equipped with naval version of S-500 in addition to long range AShMs and other systems, while the 21956 at 9,000 tons would fit perfectly between it and the Gorshkovs, it looks like the version proposed for export would be fitted with the Rif-M SAM system, but perhaps  a russian version would have  a naval version of S-400 system in it's place?

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Tyloe on Mon May 18, 2015 5:11 pm

    They're both likely competing proposals, along with other concept designs shown before, aimed for a future destroyer program like the Leader-class project. But for now none of the designs seem to have officially been chosen. And it'll be a while until the Navy starts the program since the current priority for surface ship acquisition is getting the new frigates constructed and commissioned for the next 5 years or so. This mean there might be more design proposals down the line, if there are specific requirements given such as its potential mission suite, tonnage, dimension, or cost limit.

    If the VMF has already started examining designs for the Leader program then a design like Project 21956 proposal seems like a realistic option to construct 10+ units from, and a fitting successor to the Udoloy, Sov destroyers and Slava cruisers. At 9000+ tonnes its very likely a less burden on spending and can easily allow intergration of modern systems from the Gorshkov and Grigorovich frigate classes. By the time the destroyer program starts, the new frigate's systems and technologies  will be matured.

    In comparison, a class like 23560 will likely lead to a very expensive program and you might be able to afford two 9000 ton destroyers for the price of one cruiser or heavy destroyer. Technologies and systems to support 23560 likely needs extensive time for testing as well. Unless there's another long term program for a Kirov successor, a 15-18000 ton destroyer design can only be built for a few units and not a sufficient number to succeed the older vessels. The Zumwalt program and the cancellation of the DD-21 is an example how running costs can bite on such over-demanding naval projects. The U.S wanted the DD-21 to replace the Tico cruisers and the Zumwalt to replace the Arleigh Burkes, but ultimately those plans ended until the construction of only 3 units of Zumwalt destroyers.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon May 18, 2015 8:12 pm

    In RN Leaders are to replace Slavas, Kirovs so this consitutes min number of ships.

    My educated guess is that the role of Leaders  will be to :
    a) create marine Arctic ABM
    b) Being core of Russian Task Force at least until Aircraft Carriers appear

    So upper range of series depends on Imperial needs of power projection - like peace operations saving Afro-Americans from police in Fort Ross or penguins near  Newfoundland or just ensuring a fair referendum to return to Argentina Smile


    I wonder why no 152mm gun/guns mentioned?

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue May 19, 2015 12:44 am

    Austin wrote:Russian destroyer design revealed

    http://www.janes.com/article/51453/russian-destroyer-design-revealed



    A new class of destroyer for the Russian Navy is currently under development by the Krylov State Research Center (KSRC), IHS Jane's was told during a visit to the company.

    ....

    They just improved and modernized the design


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue May 19, 2015 2:31 am

    TheArmenian wrote:
    Austin wrote:Russian destroyer design revealed

    http://www.janes.com/article/51453/russian-destroyer-design-revealed



    A new class of destroyer for the Russian Navy is currently under development by the Krylov State Research Center (KSRC), IHS Jane's was told during a visit to the company.

    ....

    They just improved and modernized the design


    That is simply absurd....

    The vessel clearly requires a catamaran hull.... /sarc off

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Tyloe on Tue May 19, 2015 8:03 am

    it's clearly a photoshop on the original image

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