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    Promising destroyer "Lider-class"

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:45 am

    Uggly but scary . lol1

    If this sonar goes actif it will kill all the fishes around. lol1

    Promising destroyer "Lider-class" - Page 17 En7h0k10
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:21 am

    It is designed to allow it to operate away from port for longer... it is a very green new hookless netless fish recovery and processing system that is ethically humaine to the fish and kills them cleaning and quickly without them being caught by hooks or nets and dragged up out of the water to slowly suffocate... Greenpiss approved.
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    Post  PhSt on Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:59 am

    Isos wrote:Uggly but scary . lol1

    If this sonar goes actif it will kill all the fishes around. lol1

    Promising destroyer "Lider-class" - Page 17 En7h0k10

    I hate to rant, but when will we witness these ships actually being put to service? when most of us are in retirement homes? and I am even only in my 30.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:53 am

    I'd like to see a more realistic indication of what concept they're actually working on.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:00 am

    hoom wrote:I'd like to see a more realistic indication of what concept they're actually working on.

    Maybe you could expand on your reasons for saying the design is unrealistic?  No doubt you have a long career of naval architecture and ship design so that your opinions carry some weight, rather than simply being knee-jerk reactions or unthinking repetition of stuff other similar genius' have said?  Suspect

    I don't actually see anything wrong with it.  It might look a little anime-inspired, but to my eye it looks fit for purpose. The tall pagoda superstructure will result in a superior radar horizon for detecting incoming threats, and the shaping looks good for reducing its own RCS (certainly better than the Zumwalt albino-pacyderm). The hull form looks pretty advanced, and the weapons fit looks top-notch and an improvement on the Kirovs.


    Last edited by Big_Gazza on Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:14 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    hoom wrote:I'd like to see a more realistic indication of what concept they're actually working on.

    Maybe you could expand on your reasons for saying the design is unrealistic?  No doubt you have a long career of naval architecture and ship design so that your opinions carry some weight, rather than simply being knee-jerk reactions or unthinking repetition of stuff other similar genius' have said?  Suspect

    I don't actually see anything wrong with it.  It might look a little anime-inspired, but to my eye it looks fit for purpose.

    Your critics about him can be applied to your own answer. "But to my eye it looks fit for purpose." isn't an analyze from an expert.

    That's as realistic for russia as the Zumwalt for US. Possible but not the best option.

    A realistic design would be a Kirov with the shapes of a Gorshkov. And something like 200m long.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:31 am

    At least I have a Bachelor of Engineering and a 30-year career behind me. My opinion carries at least some weight.  You?
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    Post  JohninMK on Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:02 am

    GarryB wrote:It is designed to allow it to operate away from port for longer... it is a very green new hookless netless fish recovery and processing system that is ethically humaine to the fish and kills them cleaning and quickly without them being caught by hooks or nets and dragged up out of the water to slowly suffocate... Greenpiss approved.

    Whilst also performing a vital stabilising function related to the wind resistance of the tall superstructure. Bit like the lead in the keel of a racing yacht. The bulge contains a standard sonar and lots of concrete Smile
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:05 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:At least I have a Bachelor of Engineering and a 30-year career behind me. My opinion carries at least some weight.  You?

    Well you're an australian engineer... lol1 (jocking don't take it personnaly).
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:18 am

    Because it is concrete filled you can also use it for dredging shallow harbours and waterways...

    Personally I think the shape looks silly and impractical... I thought the whole point of stealth is to reduce corners... not increase their numbers...

    It is clear that they need a specific angle to make it stealthy and the use of multiple steps show that the angle they need does not allow enough internal volume for what they need so hense the multi steps to increase internal volume...

    The Kirov class ships had a rather low RCS for their size... the British actually mentioned they could determine it was a Kirov by the wake it left rather than the radar return of the superstructure.

    They are showing plastic models now but we have no idea if this is an intended design or just a place holder because they don't want to show the real thing... during the cold war they often showed the weapon that failed to get in to service with the view that some foreign partner might see it and fund its development... the Mi-28A was revealed to the public about 4 years before the Hokum for that very reason... the Hokum was the helo they were building but they showed the Havoc in case someone wanted to fund its development too. Of course in that case it turned out the shift in requirements for night operations made two seat helos compulsory so the Havoc was selected too.

    The whole concept behind their new multi-role modular ship design is to make scaling the ships up easier... the fundamental difference between a new corvette and a new cruiser is that while they will generally have the same weapons, the weapons on the cruiser will be more numerous and bigger where practical... so bigger calibre guns and lots more missiles and sensors like radar and sonar will be bigger and of course the cruiser will carry helicopters and drones in larger numbers too.

    Because of this I wouldn't expect the destroyers and cruisers to be radically different from the frigates and corvettes though there would be some differences in smaller boats for different roles...

    Well you're an australian engineer... lol1 (jocking don't take it personnaly).

    He lives in Oz but I got the impression he was an ex-brit...
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:35 am

    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:At least I have a Bachelor of Engineering and a 30-year career behind me. My opinion carries at least some weight.  You?

    Well you're an australian engineer... lol1 (jocking don't take it personnaly).

    It's all good Laughing and yes, I'm an ex-Brit but have tried hard to lose my speech impediments and fit in with the ankle-janglers down here (Aussies are basically convict stock, the criminal trash of the Old Country).
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    Post  Arrow on Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:53 pm

    Work on the destroyer Leader was suspended due to lack of funds.
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    Post  JohninMK on Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:24 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote: (Aussies are basically convict stock, the criminal trash of the Old Country).
    To the contrary, criminals are often innovative thinkers outside the box, daring and courageous. Many who were transported were just unlucky of fell foul of the local bigwigs.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:55 am

    Many were sent to Australia on trivial charges just to get rid of them because they were poor or of lower class.

    There were plenty that paid to leave Europe for a better life...

    I remember a British comedian said that when he was talking to immigration in Australia they asked him if he had any criminal convictions and he replied he didn't realise that was still a requirement of entry... Twisted Evil

    The immigration guy didn't laugh...

    Last time I went through security I remembered that when the guy waived a metal detector wand over my ass and it beeped... he asked what it was and I almost said buns of steel, but thought he wouldn't appreciate the joke and said it was probably coins in my wallet in my hip pocket... the world has become rather boring.
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    Post  kvs on Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:28 am

    GarryB wrote:Many were sent to Australia on trivial charges just to get rid of them because they were poor or of lower class.

    There were plenty that paid to leave Europe for a better life...

    I remember a British comedian said that when he was talking to immigration in Australia they asked him if he had any criminal convictions and he replied he didn't realise that was still a requirement of entry...  Twisted Evil

    The immigration guy didn't laugh...

    Last time I went through security I remembered that when the guy waived a metal detector wand over my ass and it beeped... he asked what it was and I almost said buns of steel, but thought he wouldn't appreciate the joke and said it was probably coins in my wallet in my hip pocket... the world has become rather boring.

    I was going to post the same point. The so-called "criminals" shipped off to Australia and elsewhere were not real criminals by far. Most were
    basically shanghaied with all sorts of ridiculous laws that were easy to foist on victims.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:25 am

    Arrow wrote:Work on the destroyer Leader was suspended due to lack of funds.

    Probably they want to concentrate on other programs, especially now that they saw that the 22350 frigates are very good, and they decided to go for 22350M frigates/destroyers for main ship of the far sea zone.

    By the way, there will be at least 8 22350 frigates (additional 2 with be laid down this year), possibly more if they include also some for the black sea and baltic fleets.. and ideally at least 8 22350M, that should start to be build after 2022.

    Leader class is a very interesting but expensive concept, but it is not the priority, especially now that they have solved the marine gas turbine problems.
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    Post  Azi on Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:17 pm

    Arrow wrote:Work on the destroyer Leader was suspended due to lack of funds.
    Source???
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:06 pm

    Azi wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Work on the destroyer Leader was suspended due to lack of funds.
    Source???
    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B03/

    The destroyer Leader recorded as an outsider

    February 6, 2020 at 13:48 Theme: Industry

    The design work to create the look of a promising nuclear destroyer for the Russian Navy has actually been stopped due to lack of funds and postponement of the project completion deadlines to the right. About this Mil.Press FlotProm told two informed sources at the naval research institutes and design bureaus. Meanwhile, the only destroyer of project 956, the Fast, remained in the combat structure of the Russian fleet. In total, 17 of them were built for the Navy. The second and last ship of the same type at the disposal of the Navy, Admiral Ushakov, is undergoing repairs.


    “So far, neither the Northern Design Bureau, nor the Krylov State Scientific Center have allocated substantial funds for the creation of the destroyer. However, enterprises continue to carry out certain work on an initiative basis,” another source said.



    At the same time, the KSCC creates a promising conceptual appearance of the ship, taking into account the achievements of naval science, and the SPKB creates a more “concrete” destroyer (still at the outline design level), tied to the capabilities of weapons developers and a construction plant. Several versions of models of the future destroyer were tested in the basins of the Krylovsk center. At the same time, only old models tested in the first half of the 2010s were publicly demonstrated.

    A promising atomic destroyer is not even being discussed now, this is a distant future, added industry source Mil.Press FlotProm. “Now the design is de facto suspended, the corresponding decision has been made by the Navy’s shipbuilding department. They plan to return to work later so as not to jump from frigates (such as Admiral Gorshkov - ed.) With a displacement of 5400 tons to destroyers with a displacement of 19,000 tons,” he summed up he.

    The intermediate link between the serial frigates of the project 22350 and the destroyers created within the framework of the Leader-1 will be the Super Gorshkovs, frigates of increased displacement of the project 22350M. Sketch design of the "grown up" frigate at the end of last year successfully completed SPKB. The head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, Alexei Rakhmanov, in December 2019 said that they plan to complete (technical and working - ed.) The design of the project 22350M ship by 2022. After that, you can expect bookmarks.


    In size and displacement, the Super-Gorshkov roughly corresponds to the destroyer of project 956. “In the future, ships of the project 22350M can be reclassified - following the example of the BOD of project 1155, which after modernization will become frigates ,” an expert from one of the naval research institutes told the publication. NATO classification the BOD - anti-submarine destroyers while the old Soviet classification is adjacent to the new one, which added class multipurpose ships with subclasses "corvette" and "frigate" and in the future -. and "destroyer".

    Bookmark the prospects Thus, the new Leader nuclear atomic destroyer will be implemented at best in the second half of the 2020s.
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    Post  kvs on Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:23 pm

    WWII era battleship concepts are not viable today. When ship classes that were basically useless 75 years ago can be potent
    today thanks to missiles, that shifts the budgeting and design. Sinking vast resources into a single egg basket because of
    some "cool" factor is moronic. Build several ships instead with each packing more punch than any of the previous destroyers.

    Destroyers are boutique items like the Bismarck and Yamato which are complete disasters to lose. Today it is even easier to
    sink such ships. The only solution is more targets and more scatter which dilutes enemy resources. This applies to the
    dinosaur carrier groups that are like some frozen in time relic of WWII. They are a concentrated sitting target that is totally
    obsolete in its concept against today's anti-ship missiles. During WWII there were no ship missiles and propeller attack
    planes doing bombing runs or submarine torpedoes against destroyers were the only game in town.

    The only reason the US has been using these antiques is because it is facing 3rd world "enemies" with WWII era military
    technology. Even coastal anti-ship missile systems are rare today and you can see the US doing a delicate dance around
    countries which have them installed (North Korea, Iran).

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:53 pm

    It's undergoing a redesign.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:19 pm

    today thanks to missiles, that shifts the budgeting and design. Sinking vast resources into a single egg basket because of
    some "cool" factor is moronic. Build several ships instead with each packing more punch than any of the previous destroyers.

    Today the main factor is the number of VLS installed and how many ground attack ctuise missiles they carry.

    With missile ranges increasing, it is hard to destroy the ships even with air force since missile are getting ranges up to 2500km and soon even 4000km. They don't even need to destroy enemy ships, only big critical infrastructures like oil depot, biggest companies, power plants to destroy a country. Like we saw in Aramco attack.

    Ironically we are back to the gunboat diplomacy ...
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:07 pm

    I knew the Leader class ship would not be ordered the moment they announced that 2 large helicopter carriers will be built in Zaliv (Kerch, Crimea).

    The Glavkomand does not want any more uber-armed battlecruisers. The 2 Kirov and 3 Slava class ships are sufficient. As always the bulk of the fight against US/NATO fleets on the high seas or in distant waters will be carried out by the Yasen and Oscar class nuclear subs.

    The Glavkomand believes that large amphibious ships will be needed for the types of strategic and tactical objectives that the Kremlin foresees for the future.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:11 am

    kvs wrote:During WWII there were no ship missiles and propeller attack
    planes doing bombing runs or submarine torpedoes against destroyers were the only game in town  

    A brief Off Topic if I may.... Very Happy

    Yes, but not 100% correct as the Germans were using 'Fritz-X' glide-bombs against Allied shipping using the Dornier Do 217 as a medium range naval strike fighter.  They were quite effective, sinking the Italian BB Roma with two hits and crippling her sister Italia.  In a separate engagement they crippled the USS Savannah.

    The Fritz X is generally accredited as being the 1st example of the use of guided munitions in naval warfare.

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    Post  Azi on Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:51 am

    Thanks for the source! thumbsup

    Why all guys think cruisers and destroyers are obsolet and dead??? That's bullshit! You can have 1000 Karakurt corvettes and sink not a single carrier!!! Only starting from destroyer you can generate enough electric power for a powerful radar. And only above 80 VLS you have the versatility to strike and defend at once, both combined. Only from a destroyer beginning you can put naval S-500 on it. I don't want to read the bullshit again that destroyers and cruiser are destroyable with 1 missile, they were always in history sunkable with 1 hit...a cannon shell, a bomb...whatever.

    And please I don't want to read that...bla, bla, bla... we have satellites. Yeah, Serbian Army was able to move a complete tank army through the whole country in Kosovo War, complete undetected by NATO. Real track and target data can only be acquired by ships and planes...before you fire Tsirkon or Kinzhal you need target location. Maybe drones could do the job, but for this you need a drone carrier and big and powerful drones, not a quadrocopter from supermarket. So it's not that easy how people always think and classical concept in naval warfare is still valid!

    Cruisers and destroyers by the way are not only for defending homeland, Tu-22M3M can do this job very good. They are for power projection, because defending homeland begins at the shores of the enemy! Defending allies, carrying out missions deep in enemy ocean zones etc. No corvette could do this job!!! Before USA thinks of attacking russian troops outside of Russia, because it's sooo far away (both Russia and whatever scenario maybe)...a cruiser gives them the psychological "f*ck you"...200 miles away from New York or another coastal city. That's a only psychological factor, but a important factor for our primitive primate brain. If you can see a threat you beginn to realize it, 7000 nukes is only abstract for most brainwashed idiotic western politicians.

    Okay, back to topic...
    I heard the project 22350M is not only a stretched project 22350 with more VLS, it is heavy modified with powerful radar. From the stats and the displacement it's a destroyer. And it's needed now to replace older ships. For Lider there is enough time, because the 2 cruisers now will serve well for the next years. And Lider was not mentioned to be build soon. I think it's more like magnumcromagnon wrote, a complete redesign of the concept.

    Papa Dragon was right...the "anime destroyer" will in this form never be build! lol! Let's see how the redesign will look.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:51 am

    If you think of ships as land based air defence forces, then an old corvette is basically a Verba team... relatively vulnerable to most air attacks though certainly not useless, but a modern corvette is the equivalent of a Pantsir battery... it could be overwhelmed but likely wont be operating alone anyway.

    A Frigate is like an old S-300 battery with a few Pantsir batteries to help defend it and a Destroyer is an S-400 battery with a couple of TOR or Pantsir batteries to support it.

    They don't need all cruisers but they do need some because a cruiser is not just a big vulnerable target it is much better armed and equipped than smaller vessels to operate away from Russian shores and has the fire power to defend itself from rather heavier attacks than smaller vessels.

    An aircraft carrier is adding an airfield to defence which greatly expands your capacity to defend yourself and to also get the job done.

    With any team, the more players you have and the better they coordinate and work together the harder it is to defeat them.

    With their new technology every platform contributes information to the system so all the elements know what all the other elements know...

    The whole point of modular design was that once you had a corvette you could scale it up to Frigate and Destroyer and Cruiser, with increased weapons and sensors and capacity and endurance... you have to specialise the smaller boats because a Corvette of one design might not be ideal for every role... whether it is arctic or pacific or black sea or baltic sea or caspian sea use, possibly frigates too, but larger vessels should be big enough to carry everything they need to be properly multirole...

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