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    Promising destroyer "Lider-class"

    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:11 pm

    George1 wrote:New destroyer: pause

    The author's version of the article published on 21.06.2018 in the newspaper "Vzglyad" (reference 1).

       In one of his recent interviews, the president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), A. Rakhmanov, indirectly indicated the abandonment of construction for the Russian Navy of new combat surface ships of the ocean zone - the destroyers of project 23560 "Leader". In response to a question from the Izvestia correspondent about why they refused to build them, he replied: "All questions to the customer, if the Defense Ministry decides that it should start building [the Leader], we will take it up" (ref. 2 ). A skeptical reader might get the impression that the Military Department easily changes some ill-conceived decisions to others, while in fact no one thought of abandoning the construction of the destroyers of the new project.

    Promising destroyer "Lider-class" - Page 10 0_1681b9_d5218c41_orig

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/195066.html

    The word vaporware comes to mind.
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    Post  eehnie on Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:18 pm

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/195066.html

    From the article:

    even the version of the brilliant Arlee Burke III (the best and most massive destroyer of our time) has come close to 10,000 tons.

    This is enough to have a good taste of which is the nature of the forces generating this article, and to ruin the credit of the article.

    Between the few creible data:

    In the initial plan for the activities of the Russian Defense Ministry for 2013-2020, concerning the equipping of modern weapons, military and special equipment, the new destroyer was listed in the section "Development of prospective models. Adopting the Arms: Beginning of Mass Production "(presumably meant laying of the head ship) with the date "until 30.12.2018" (reference 3).

    In the rest there is a lot of missleading propaganda.

    The pro-US trolls against the Project 23560 (approved in April 2017, not in July-August) and against the future Russian Aircraft Carrier (likely of the Project 23000) are at full work now, like we can see in this same forum.

    Even if the shipyards can have their own interests, the plans and the purchase orders of the Russian Ministry of Defense prevail.
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    marat

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    Post  marat on Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:02 pm

    eehnie wrote:https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/195066.html

    From the article:

    even the version of the brilliant Arlee Burke III (the best and most massive destroyer of our time) has come close to 10,000 tons.

    This is enough to have a good taste of which is the nature of the forces generating this article, and to ruin the credit of the article.

    Between the few creible data:

    In the initial plan for the activities of the Russian Defense Ministry for 2013-2020, concerning the equipping of modern weapons, military and special equipment, the new destroyer was listed in the section "Development of prospective models. Adopting the Arms: Beginning of Mass Production "(presumably meant laying of the head ship) with the date "until 30.12.2018" (reference 3).

    In the rest there is a lot of missleading propaganda.

    The pro-US trolls against the Project 23560 (approved in April 2017, not in July-August) and against the future Russian Aircraft Carrier (likely of the Project 23000) are at full work now, like we can see in this same forum.

    Even if the shipyards can have their own interests, the plans and the purchase orders of the Russian Ministry of Defense prevail.

    Initial plan for 2013-2020 was created, obliviously before 2013, so before 5 years, before Ukrainian crisis. Plan is one thing reality is another.
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    Post  eehnie on Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:33 am

    marat wrote:Initial plan for 2013-2020 was created, obliviously before 2013, so before 5 years, before Ukrainian crisis. Plan is one thing reality is another.

    This plan has been develoved with not big delay. In the article there is a reference to it:

    The development of the technical project was planned to start in June 2016, but consideration of options for the draft project was delayed, and its approval was made approximately in July-August 2017 (ref. 5),

    The last data is wrong, the appoval of the Project 23560 was done in April 2017.  The approval of the preliminary design marks habitually the moment for the begin of the technical project. This means that by April 2017 the plan was being developed and only with a delay of only 10 months.

    Also it is necessary to take into account that the production of the first ship can begin since the begin of the technical project. This means that according to the initial plan of 2013 the production of the first ship of the Project 23560 was planned to start between June 2016 and December 2018. To remember:

    In the initial plan for the activities of the Russian Defense Ministry for 2013-2020, concerning the equipping of modern weapons, military and special equipment, the new destroyer was listed in the section "Development of prospective models. Adopting the Arms: Beginning of Mass Production "(presumably meant laying of the head ship) with the date "until 30.12.2018" (reference 3).

    The commented delay of 10 months would leave the interval for the begin of the construction of the first ship of the Project 23560 between April 2017 and December 2018.

    Despite the interests of the shipyards, the interests of the Ministry of defense prevails, specially on key projects, and this is one. One of the main interests of the Russian Ministry of Defense is to have a local ship building industry able to build every type of combat ship in the shortest time possible. And they will not accept delays on it. Potential Russian adversaries will not ask to the Russian shipyards if they are ready to produce ships before acting against Russia, symply, if Russian shipyards are not ready to produce some type of combat ships, the Russian adversaries will take advantage of it.

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    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:13 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:The word vaporware comes to mind.

    Nah, I don't think anyone truly believes that the Navy doesn't intend to build to Destroyers, but they need to resolve shipbuilding industry woes first and start to turn out a series of Frigates.  Its pointless to have a nice new shiny 12kT destroyer but have nothing bigger than corvettes available to bulk out a taskforce for it to lead.

    I wouldn't expect any hulls until at least a few years after a new frigate (or heavy frigate 22350M) series is laid down.  11356 don't count as they aren't built to an adequate spec.
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    Post  eehnie on Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:17 pm

    The previous article is missleading about the words of the President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC):

    In a recent interview he said just the contrary of what the previous article assigned to him:

    http://tass.ru/opinions/interviews/5343435
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftass.ru%2Fopinions%2Finterviews%2F5343435

    About the Project 23560 Lider:

    Head of USC: I hope that this year we will close the "sins of the past"
    July 4, 9:00 UTC + 3

    Alexey Rakhmanov
    Alexey Rakhmanov ©️ Mikhail Metzel / TASS

    ...

    - Are the works on the prospective destroyer "Leader" included in the new LG?

    - I can only say that the sketch work on this ship did not stop. Each of our design bureaus constantly develops a reserve for most advanced weapons. We are talking about submarines of future generations, and about surface ships of various sea areas.


    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=es&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/opinions/interviews/5343435&xid=17259,15700023,15700124,15700149,15700168,15700186,15700190,15700201,15700208&usg=ALkJrhiPS-W8kPlep4FgK6zR5WUqiYlUwg

    Taking into account the data of the interview, July 4, 2018, this is refered to the Technical Design of the Project 23560.



    Later in the end of the interview there are other references to the civil cebreaker of the Project 22220 LK-60 called also "leader" that are being used to misslead:

    - Two more universal icebreakers LK-60 to the Baltic plant have already been ordered? What are the prospects for the creation of the "Leader" icebreaker?

    - Not yet, but we are waiting for the order from Rosatomflot. There is an understanding that the fourth and fifth LK-60 would be in demand on the routes of the Northern Sea Route.

    There is a choice of a construction site for the "Leader". The corresponding commission under the government under the chairmanship of Yuri Borisov is working, we are actively participating in it.

    It is possible that there will be two "Leaders". At least, based on the needs, as claimed by Rosatom, for wiring ships in the eastern region of the Northern Sea Route, where the heaviest ice conditions are, they are necessary.

    - Baltzavod or Severnaya Verf can become a construction site for the "Leader"?

    - Initially, Russian shipbuilding enterprises did not think to create such heavy and large ships, and now any of the existing shipyards needs modernization in order to build the "Leader".

    We are reconstructing the Northern shipyard, where there will be a berth for giant ships. We are able to calculate the load on the slab, make the heavier launch dock, so that it can withstand 40 thousand tons of weight. However, it is economically inefficient to build such structures for the sake of one "steamer". So the questions about the place of construction still remain.

    At the same time, I am deeply convinced that it is illogical to build an icebreaker outside the central part of the country. All the co-operation is located here. To carry all manufacturers of large-sized equipment by sea or along the river to the Far East is long and expensive, the logistics of moving causes a lot of questions. The construction of the production base in the Far East will make the project not just expensive, but "diamond".

    USC has long and firmly held the title of world leader in icebreaking. Our enterprises have accumulated unique competencies in this area, and this is not boasting, these are dozens of vessels as evidence. So we expect that this key factor will certainly be taken into account.

    Interviewed by Anna Yudina


    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=es&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/opinions/interviews/5343435&xid=17259,15700023,15700124,15700149,15700168,15700186,15700190,15700201,15700208&usg=ALkJrhiPS-W8kPlep4FgK6zR5WUqiYlUwg

    The Project 22220 LK-60 "leader" is a project of civil nuclear icebreaker of 33540 tons.
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    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:05 pm

    The technical design of the destroyer "Leader" will be ready by 2022

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5411006
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    Post  dino00 on Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:42 pm

    [b]
    Russia plans to build up to six nuclear destroyers "Leader" - media[/b


    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201808031232-i1i3.htm

    A series of destroyers of project 23560 (code "Leader") will not be limited to one ship, the Navy can receive up to 4-6 such destroyers.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:08 am

    George1 wrote:The technical design of the destroyer "Leader" will be ready by 2022
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5411006
    Any guesstimates on how long will it take to build it for sea trials once the decision is made to do so, taking into consideration all the limiting circumstances stacked up against it?
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:49 pm

    Mix of statements on the Lider class at navy recognition. Dedicated to our grumpy Slavic friends Very Happy

    https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/august-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6416-project-plan-for-russia-s-leader-class-destroyer-to-be-ready-by-2022.html
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:49 am

    The forward top mast is so massive looking relative to the hulls' width (beam), I wonder if it'll make the ship unstable in heavy seas.
    Any idea who may want to import it?
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:28 am

    There would not be an enormous amount of weight inside the structure... think of it as the crows nest... except instead of a sailor up there with optics, it will be a large radar array and likely EO systems too.

    The higher it is the further it can see...

    I rather doubt it would be that shape however...
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    Post  kumbor on Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:08 am


    We still know nothing of how the new DDG will look like. Krylow NII has projected very efficient hidrodynamic forms minimising drag.
    I hope that the choice of nuclear powerplant is definite, as VMF needs ship thip that can be at sea indefinitely, while replenishing stores by underway.

    But, there are so many projects going along. Submarines are the priority, as always. littoral forces need new ships, as are minesweeper forces also. So much is needed, and every navy is very sensitive to budgetary cuts! there is no enough money, nor there is sufficient shipbuilding capacities for everything. So, we will wait for long to see new big destroyer on the sea. Every Leader will need more than 5 years to build, if not even ten!
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:09 pm

    If US-led NATO breaks up & the EU forms its own mil. bloc, perhaps Russia could order some big surface ships in France!
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    Post  kumbor on Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:07 am


    We all know what has happened with russian "Mistrals". Economic and political sanctions are in power, and i don`t see that they will loosen. Remember the words of Alexander III that Russia has only two real allies - its proper Army and the Navy. The standard russian/soviet tradition is that no important weapon system or crucial part of it should be imported, except for the sake of experimenting and development of their proper. Forget about it. Nevertheless, french vessels are often impressive!
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:46 pm

    France is not a reliable partner... their own actions towards Russia have made it that way.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:07 pm

    Russia would have to be bonkers to order any major ships from another country unless it's to gather information the Russians have to learn to swim even if they sink first.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:42 pm

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Mirage2000B/status/1061150562601787393

    Maket model of lider, the same presented before. You can see S-500 VLS which are compose of 4 tubes for 64 missiles in all. 8 UKSK for 64 missiles.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:58 pm

    Isos wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/Mirage2000B/status/1061150562601787393

    Maket model of lider, the same presented before. You can see S-500 VLS which are compose of 4 tubes for 64 missiles in all. 8 UKSK for 64 missiles.

    This is just some enthusiast's scale model based on anime fanart from Krylov
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    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:23 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/Mirage2000B/status/1061150562601787393

    Maket model of lider, the same presented before. You can see S-500 VLS which are compose of 4 tubes for 64 missiles in all. 8 UKSK for 64 missiles.

    This is just some enthusiast's scale model based on anime fanart from Krylov

    Still interesting to see how they see s-500 launchers. The missile shouldn't be bigger than oniks so they coukd use UKSK-M. Maybe it is a proof that this is just fan art like you say.
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    Post  Gibraltar on Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:06 am

    I think this project won't see any light in less than 20 years. Here they're supposimg a very capable surface combatant but after full refit of the last two kirovs there will be no need for such ships for a good time. Going ahead, if modernization of Kalinin and PtG will go as supposed it's not so unlikely they'll rebuild the Frunze instead of starting construction of Lider project that in that times it's likely will be alreasy outdated.

    The point is, they need such ships with 2 active sailing Kirovs and Gorshkovs eventually in fast buiding pace? I think and I think they think the same thing, they need first a modern nuclear carrier than cruisers, soeaking better, they stuffed uksk cells in any ship and submarine with perspective medium+long lifespan, they need other expensive missile sailing platforms? In short period I think not. So I think thus wull be a project with long long gestation kept alive more for design training than fo real realization. It's my personal opinion, happy ti be confuted.


    Last edited by Gibraltar on Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:17 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ..)
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:38 am

    The Kirov class vessels are Cruisers... what they need are Frigates and Destroyers to replace existing types even though most existing Frigate types could easily be replaced by their new Corvettes which are rather more capable and powerful than previous corvettes.

    Of course they are working on Destroyers:

    http://tass.com/defense/1010343

    And Frigates:

    http://tass.com/defense/1022881

    But they have to make sure the design is right because once they start making them they don't want to have to stop and redesign them...
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:11 am

    GarryB wrote:.....
    But they have to make sure the design is right because once they start making them they don't want to have to stop and redesign them...

    Since when?

    Changing their mind and redesigning ships several times during construction and then abandoning the whole project and starting over from scratch with more money wasted it's literally their preferred MO.

    They aren't ordering or building anything​ because they can't.

    Last combat ship that isn't missile boat was laid down several years ago, since then nothing.
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    Post  kumbor on Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:40 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:.....
    But they have to make sure the design is right because once they start making them they don't want to have to stop and redesign them...

    Since when?

    Changing their mind and redesigning ships several times during construction and then abandoning the whole project and starting over from scratch with more money wasted it's literally their preferred MO.

    They aren't ordering or building anything​ because they can't.

    Last combat ship that isn't missile boat was laid down several years ago, since then nothing.

    It is simply not true!
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    Post  Isos on Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:31 am

    kumbor wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:.....
    But they have to make sure the design is right because once they start making them they don't want to have to stop and redesign them...

    Since when?

    Changing their mind and redesigning ships several times during construction and then abandoning the whole project and starting over from scratch with more money wasted it's literally their preferred MO.

    They aren't ordering or building anything​ because they can't.

    Last combat ship that isn't missile boat was laid down several years ago, since then nothing.

    It is simply not true!

    Yes it is.

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