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    Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

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    Isos

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:20 pm

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    Militarov

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Militarov on Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:37 pm


    I am abit skeptical about these ranges they claimed here.
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    Isos

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:44 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    I am abit skeptical about these ranges they claimed here.

    If you look at the detection ranges of the other radars, it seem like they don't lie. However, Lider is meant to carry S-500 so it will need a radar like this one for ABM role.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Militarov on Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:48 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    I am abit skeptical about these ranges they claimed here.

    If you look at the detection ranges of the other radars, it seem like they don't lie. However, Lider is meant to carry S-500 so it will need a radar like this one for ABM role.

    No, no i am not saying they are lying, just that they are being abit optimistic Smile
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:30 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    I am abit skeptical about these ranges they claimed here.

    If you look at the detection ranges of the other radars, it seem like they don't lie. However, Lider is meant to carry S-500 so it will need a radar like this one for ABM role.

    No, no i am not saying they are lying, just that they are being abit optimistic Smile

    Most people here ar optimistic when it comes to the Russians Navy and building ships of this size.

    If I hear the Ice Breaker Excuse again I swear.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:31 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    I am abit skeptical about these ranges they claimed here.

    If you look at the detection ranges of the other radars, it seem like they don't lie. However, Lider is meant to carry S-500 so it will need a radar like this one for ABM role.

    No, no i am not saying they are lying, just that they are being abit optimistic Smile

    Most people here ar optimistic when it comes to the Russians Navy and building ships of this size.

    If I hear the Ice Breaker Excuse again I swear.

    we are sorry that you are incapable of logical deduction.
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    hoom

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  hoom on Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:42 am

    It is very large though at 7.1m diameter & L-band.
    Compare with 3.6m AN/SPY-1, 4.2m for AN/SPY-6 for the Flight3 Burkes, 1.4* bigger area than the 6m arrays for the proposed BMD San Antonio Shocked
    The radar up the back of this pic is presumably the same


    Which reminds me of an oddity in the model that I've been meaning to bring up:
    As much as it's just a concept model -> fist full of salt but the front face antenna is really big, much smaller ones on the sides

    Also still there on the later CG version

    I've been kind of assuming it's for anti-ship detection?
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    eehnie

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  eehnie on Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:55 pm

    Taking into account the current presence of cruisers in the Russian Navy after a long selection process of ships since the fall of the Soviet Union I have not problems to see the need of this project for the Russian Navy. If these ships remain today, it is not by caprice.

    As part of the project Russia will create the necessary infrastructure to build them and it will not take as long as many people think. Plus, Russia will do it thanks to the failure of the Mistral ships purchase. By 2025 the first ship can be finished. The rest later, according to the needs.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:07 pm

    The lider is obvious - to replace existing destroyers and cruisers in Russian Navy that is getting too old and expensive to handle. So this new ship will be built in a timely matter to replace those other larger ships. Will be cheaper in long run.

    Russian Navy is making a transformation. They are going the route of reduced type of ships and going for more less specialized, more multipurpose ships. Makes sense in my opinion.

    It may take them longer to build first unit, but it will be done.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:04 pm


    Actualy te 1500 kn range seems like understatement, not overstatement.

    By this links>
    https://mostlymissiledefense.com/2016/07/17/thaad-radar-ranges-july-17-2018/

    http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/02.surv/karte015.en.html

    The THAAD radar acive area fifth of this radar, and has longer range than 1500 km.

    Of course this is not a fire control /MIRV spotter, but early warning/sthealt buster.


    Target is to force the US to develope ICBMs with mid range interceptor avoidance capability, so it is more likely part the strategic rocket forces.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Militarov on Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:32 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    I am abit skeptical about these ranges they claimed here.

    If you look at the detection ranges of the other radars, it seem like they don't lie. However, Lider is meant to carry S-500 so it will need a radar like this one for ABM role.

    No, no i am not saying they are lying, just that they are being abit optimistic Smile

    Most people here ar optimistic when it comes to the Russians Navy and building ships of this size.

    If I hear the Ice Breaker Excuse again I swear.

    Well, shipbuilding in general aside i worked with radars and detection ranges are... always being set very optimistic by desiegners and producers xD All of them, not only Russians, our US and UK built radars were not performing as good as one might imagine.

    That is typical you need to sell the product after all.

    Agreed, thats why i said they are being "abit optimistic". Like when they told me how certain thermal imaging camera (which i was installing on the van for the border police) can detect human body on "5000m range" and i adjusted software to that fact. Turned out it really would have issues detecting forest wildfire on ranges over 3000m, let alone human.


    This radar four times bigger (by area) than the SPY- on the AB, it has two times longer wavelength.

    It is an early warning radar designed to intercept nuclear warheads, it the detection range of 1000km+ can detect ballistic missile stages/ MIRV buses.

    For a warhead the detection range more likely 500 km, 50% more than for the SPY-1.

    And baseline SPY-1 is.... what like 40 years old now? With currently used variant being 20ish years old?

    Also size of the array doesnt matter much, what matters is the size and number of radiating modules, their output power, their cooling, availability rates, and how mature is the software solution.

    Naturally you have almost 40 other parameters that affect how good radar is from scan frequency, to wavelenghts and pulse repetition frequency.

    Do you know why so few marine radars in the USSR had protective radome? Reason is very interesting and has something to do with one of the things that "matter" i mentioned above, just mentioning it as very nice question for research.

    Also if you really want to talk about size, notice one very important line in the text: "Depending on the class of ship and tasks performed, the radar is "scaled" by changing the APA dimensions".

    I still stand behind my original statement, detection ranges and RCS of the targets they stated is to be taken with grain of salt. Same goes to the US, French, Israeli and other counterparts, dont get me wrong. However not a single radar in our IADS performed the way it was supposed "by the book" from British S-600 to Russian P-40.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Singular_Transform on Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:15 am

    Militarov wrote:

    And baseline SPY-1 is.... what like 40 years old now? With currently used variant being 20ish years old?

    Also size of the array doesnt matter much, what matters is the size and number of radiating modules, their output power, their cooling, availability rates, and how mature is the software solution.

    Naturally you have almost 40 other parameters that affect how good radar is from scan frequency, to wavelenghts and pulse repetition frequency.

    Do you know why so few marine radars in the USSR had protective radome? Reason is very interesting and has something to do with one of the things that "matter" i mentioned above, just mentioning it as very nice question for research.

    Also if you really want to talk about size, notice one very important line in the text: "Depending on the class of ship and tasks performed, the radar is "scaled" by changing the APA dimensions".

    I still stand behind my original statement, detection ranges and RCS of the targets they stated is to be taken with grain of salt. Same goes to the US, French, Israeli and other counterparts, dont get me wrong. However not a single radar in our IADS performed the way it was supposed "by the book" from British S-600 to Russian P-40.

    I'm not a radar expert, but I have the basic radio knowledge,and actualy fascinating to calculate phased arrays : )

    Based on this, each radar has two importand data:
    1. Frequency
    2. Size

    Everything else COMPENSATE the above parameters, by no more than 6 decibel.

    Sy, if you have an X band radar then you need high quality component, if you have an L band radar you can have low quality components, simply because the timing is less critical due to the longer wavelenght.

    From the above two you can calculate the number of radiating element (theroetical maximum) ,and that gives to you the beam with , and sensitivity.

    Perty much that is all that you need.

    The stealth gave a new parameter to this equatation, because it decreased the value of the high frequency radards, and increased the value of the lower , cehaper and simpler low frequency radards.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammut_radar

    Second world war electronic steering phased array early warning radar, 150 MHz, 300 km range : )

    70 years old : ) maybe today it is possible to make bit better : )
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    eehnie

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  eehnie on Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:39 pm


    This article has some mention about the status of this project, that seems to be officially ordered fast.

    https://www.gazeta.ru/army/2016/12/27/10441301.shtml
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    George1

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  George1 on Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:37 am

    Sources: destroyer "Leader" will remain in the state armament program
    April 26, 2017 at 21:17 Theme: Industry

    On Wednesday, April 26, the media reported that the prospective destroyer of project 23560 "Leader" was excluded from the state arms program (GPV) until 2025. Sources in the naval industry in a conversation with FlotProm denied this information, adding, however, that the project funding has actually decreased, and therefore the timing of implementation will inevitably move.

    Despite the postponement of the deadline, the ship was not ruled out of the state armament program, as it continues to be in demand, FlotProm told a project specialist close to the project. He added that the new terms of implementation will be determined on April 27.

    Another source in the industry noted that, despite the sufficient number of works carried out by the destroyer Northern PKB and the Krylov State Scientific Center, the timing will shift to the right due to a reduction in shipbuilding financing in general.

    "We continue to work, but its results are directly dependent on funding, and you will not earn much by initiative," he explained.

    Information was confirmed and the third interlocutor FlotProm. According to him, "in the shipbuilding program" Leader "there are some money to support the project within the framework of the GPV allocated."

    "Next, we will wait for their receipt." Design and construction will continue when the leadership decides, "the source concluded.

    Earlier it was reported that the Northern Shipyard was chosen to build the ship. The company plans to modernize its facilities, including those for the construction of a destroyer. According to Delovoy Peterburg, in March the shipyard announced a tender for the first stage of modernization, the results of the competition have not yet been announced.

    The laying of the head destroyer was planned to take place at the end of 2017.

    According to the project, displacement of the destroyer "Leader" is 17.5 thousand tons, length - 200 meters, width - 20 meters, speed - 30 knots, autonomy - 90 days. It was also reported that the ship is equipped with a nuclear power plant for unlimited range of navigation and platforms for 60 anti-ship winged, 128 anti-aircraft and 16 anti-submarine missiles.

    http://flotprom.ru/2017/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B087/


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    eehnie

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  eehnie on Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:55 am


    For me the key with this project is to build the capability of construction of this ship by 2025. For it is necessary to have the first unit by 2025. The following units can have some delay without problem for Russia because the current Russian fleet is not old.

    And the same for the projects 23000E of aircraft carrier and 21956 of destroyer.

    In fact the alone big ships in the Russian fleet that need to have a replacement by 2025 are the remaining cruiser of the Project 1134B (that can be replaced by the first unit of the Project 23560) and the remaining destroyer of the Project 61/01090 (that can be replaced by the first unit of the Project 21956).

    Even building only one of them by 2025 the Russian fleet can improve becoming stronger.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:41 am

    eehnie wrote:
    For me the key with this project is to build the capability of construction of this ship by 2025. For it is necessary to have the first unit by 2025. The following units can have some delay without problem for Russia because the current Russian fleet is not old.

    And the same for the projects 23000E of aircraft carrier and 21956 of destroyer.

    .........

    23000E and 21956 are vaporware. Not even that, they are just concept art.

    Gorshkov frigate (and its enlarged variant if developed) will be go to platform for Russian Navy. As for aircraft carriers, they will be built only after Lider project is implemented first.

    My guess is that this delay is related to ODK getting those gas turbines up and running ahead of schedule. Lider project was moved up on priority list back when engine problems popped up, but now with that being sorted out they are moved to the back burner again.

    Makes sense, AA systems that Lider is expected to use are still in testing stage and naval version is still on the drawing board. And they would be smart to see how new reactors perform on icebreakers before committing. There is other stuff most likely.

    Whole thing will be easier to deal with if they can use off the shelf components instead of stuff that is still in development stage.

    Nobody wants another Redut hassle. Especially not on vessel like nuke powered destroyer.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  eehnie on Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:37 am

    PapaDragon wrote:23000E and 21956 are vaporware. Not even that, they are just concept art.

    Gorshkov frigate (and its enlarged variant if developed) will be go to platform for Russian Navy. As for aircraft carriers, they will be built only after Lider project is implemented first.

    My guess is that this delay is related to ODK getting those gas turbines up and running ahead of schedule. Lider project was moved up on priority list back when engine problems popped up, but now with that being sorted out they are moved to the back burner again.

    Makes sense, AA systems that Lider is expected to use are still in testing stage and naval version is still on the drawing board. And they would be smart to see how new reactors perform on icebreakers before committing. There is other stuff most likely.

    Whole thing will be easier to deal with if they can use off the shelf components instead of stuff that is still in development stage.

    Nobody wants another Redut hassle. Especially not on vessel like nuke powered destroyer.

    About Aircraft Carriers the last time I quoted for you the Maritime Doctrine 2015 of the Russian Federation, and still you continue consciently saying things that are not compatible with it, in a chapter as important as this.

    About the Project 21956, I think the project, or some update, are compatible with the Project 23560 Lider, and the frigates.

    To wait until to finnish the cruisers to begin with the aircraft carriers makes 0 sense from a point of management of the fleet and procurement of new units, and the same from a point of management of the ship building activity in the shipyards:

    1.- It is not right to build all the ships of one type at the same time, because later all become old at same time, and it creates budget tensions. The renovation of the fleet must be a continuous process that affords the procurement of ships of all the types at the same time in a rythm affordable and as constant as possible.
    2.- It is not right to build all the ships of one type at the same time, because you need multiple shipyards adapted to them, and it creates tensions in the industry (strong putual efforts). It is not right to design the shipyards to build first a Project 23560 ship of 15000 tons and later a Project 23000E ship of 100000 tons. Every type of ship (aircraft carrier, cruiser, detroyer, frigate,...) needs their own shipyards adapted to the size of the ships, and the shipyards must be used in a continuous process building ships of the same type (size) one after other. This is the way to avoid shipyards without work when there is not production of one type of ships, this is the way to avoid oversized shipyards, and this is the way to build not more shipyards than the minimum necessary.
    3.- It is not right to build all the ships of one type at the same time, because it creates tensions with the workers of the industry. A continuous process of renovation with a continuous work in the shipyards for every type of ship, allows to give to the workers of the shipyards a continous job in a stable place.

    There are key factors for the Russian gouvernment in order to decide what to do.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:43 pm

    Just because they may want to have something does not mean that they need it.

    India could invest loads of money and successfully design and build nuclear icebreaker. But what use would they have for it? Other than some basic scientific stuff none at all.

    Same applies for Russia and oversized aircraft carriers. For 10+ billion that the project construction would cost for just one unit (to say nothing of timetable) they could purchase entire new navy composed of vessels they have actual need for.

    They should build more than one type of ships but those types should be missile ships, corvettes, frigates and landing ships. Destroyers at later phase. Small carriers at much later one. That is it.

    Everything else is just waste of time and money on needless bling.
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    George1

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  George1 on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:01 pm

    Russia’s advanced Lider-class destroyer to get nuclear propulsion unit

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/953690


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    hoom

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  hoom on Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:22 am

    Pics of the Skvall model from IMDS http://foto-i-mir.ru/23560-squall-imds-2017/
    Don't think anything changed on it but there might be some new photo angles.

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