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    Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:25 pm

    Project Canada wrote:

    Russia to build largest and super powerful destroyer since 1989



    In the near future, the Russian Navy may receive a large and powerful destroyer. The main objective of such a vessel will be to create an "umbrella" above the sea. The project of the Russian destroyer is known as the "Leader" (Project 23560). According to experts' estimates, it will be the largest, most expensive and state-of-the-art Russian vessel since 1989.

    During the times of WWI and WWII, destroyers were not used to attack enemy fleet. Destroyers proved to be universal vessels instead. As soon as radars and missiles appeared, destroyer vessels were the first to carry them on board. Soviet destroyers turned into large antisubmarine ships, whereas US destroyers were the ships with guided missiles on board.

    The US destroyer Zumwalt, in the course of the evolution of these ships, has surpassed in size even the battleships of the Russian-Japanese War and became one of the largest warships of its class. It was Russia's Peter the Great missile cruiser could come near the US ship.

    In the foreseeable future, the Russian Navy may receive a strong and large destroyer. What kind of a ship will it be?

    As experience shows, the displacement of the ship that carries modern means of detection and fire control (high power radars with antenna 10 meters in diameter), as well as ammunition of dozens of long-range anti-aircraft missiles, should be at least 7-8 thousand tons. Such a vessel should have high masts. The higher the masts, the easier it is for radars to intercept enemy missiles, especially those flying at low altitudes.

    If such a ship also carries anti-aircraft missiles, cruise missiles and anti-submarine torpedo tubes, a helicopter and artillery, the displacement will increase considerably. The engine has to be nuclear  in this case, and Russia has an extensive experience in building fine engines for ice breakers.

    It just so happens that the displacement of the new Russian vessel will be about 18,000 tons. This will make the ship comparable to the Dreadnought of Britain from 1906!

    In a nutshell, it will be the biggest, most expensive and modern Russian ship since 1989. Fleets of the world have obtained a multitude of large and well-equipped vessels since that time. Now it is Russia's turn to build a 18,000-ton nuclear-powered vessel.

    Clearly, there is no data on the basic parameters of the would-be ship. However, it was said that the ship will have a 50-meter high "pyramidal mast." The mast will enable the ship to detect low-flying objects at a distance of 20 nautical miles at sea level. The second, lower mainmast, will house communication systems.

    The design of the ship includes the reduced radar visibility technology. Missiles are launched  vertically and can even turn where necessary. There will also be two chimneys on the ship. This suggests that the ship will be equipped with gas turbine engines that will be powered with conventional fuel.

    The vessel itself will be a nuclear-powered vessel. A nuclear reactor ensures an unlimited cruising range and does not need thousands of tons of liquid fuel. However, a nuclear engines has its disadvantages.They include a large size of the carrier vessel, as well as expensive and complicated maintenance. To crown it all, the ship will not be able to enter the Black Sea, because nuclear-powered vessels are not allowed to navigate there. There are other ports that a nuclear-powered ship will not be able to enter, but the entire project still has a lot more pluses than minuses.

    A nuclear engine is a "sea of ​​energy". A modern ship always needs energy, especially if it is going to carry a railgun - a weapon that fires projectiles with the power of electromagnetic field. In addition, the ship will need the power for 3-D printers that will appear on board combat vessels in the near future. The printers will be used to produce plastic drones for reconnaissance activities far away from the ship.

    At any rate, the model of the Russian Leader already exists. We can only wait for the time when the new ship is born.

    http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/11-09-2015/131933-russia_new_destroyer-0/

    As of now the Pagoda Leader design is one of the proposed designs in competition, the final design may be different, nothing is set in stone as of yet.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:53 pm

    With a vessel like a Frigate it will need a decent structure but lots of angles like that pagoda design seems a lot of complication for very little real return.

    A tall structure that is fairly broad would allow lots of internal volume for large radar arrays and sensors, but I suspect they will emphasise flush antennas built in to the structure to reduce their effect on RCS.


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  George1 on Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:55 am

    First ship of Project 23560 / Lider will be named after E.Primakov

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1611123.html


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Militarov on Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:06 pm

    George1 wrote:First ship of Project 23560 / Lider will be named after E.Primakov

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1611123.html

    As someone wrote in comments i always expected some of the new Russian ships to be named Иван Грозный, i want that, NOW!

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Rmf on Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:02 am

    `primakov? that jewish guy who changed his name....

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:59 pm

    The destroyer "Leader" can be laid on the "Severnaya Verf" in 2018

    Promising destroyer "Leader" can be laid on the "Severnaya Verf" after its modernization. Cutting metal for the new destroyer is scheduled to begin in 2018.

    PETERSBURG, December 22 - RIA Novosti. The prospective destroyer "Leader" can be built at the plant "Severnaya Verf" after the modernization of the enterprise, work is scheduled to begin in 2018, told reporters on Tuesday the president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), Alexey Rakhmanov.

    At the St. Petersburg plant "Severnaya Verf" on Tuesday hosted a ceremony installing the foundation stone in honor of the start of construction of a new shipbuilding complex.

    "Of course," Severnaya Verf "after the upgrade will be ready to accept this project, and we plan to start cutting metal at the plant for a new destroyer in 2018," - he said at the ceremony Rakhmanov.

    He added that the modernization of the production capacity of the enterprise will eventually be built on "Severnaya Verf" ships up to 350 meters.

    Premiere prospective destroyer Project 23560 "Leader" has become one of the biggest in the naval industry in Russia in 2015. The layout of the ship was unveiled at the International Military-Technical Forum "Army 2015".

    According to the Russian Navy, a new generation of destroyers will have a much larger displacement than its predecessors, and on the striking power will be comparable to cruisers. Performance characteristics confirm these words: "Leader" will have a displacement of about 17.5 thousand tons, a length of 200 meters and width of 20 meters.

    The ship will carry on board more than 200 missiles for various purposes - ship, anti-aircraft and anti-submarine. Most importantly, this project is not created for the long term, and for construction in the near future - USC notes that the final formation of the image of the destroyer will be completed in 2016, and the tab could take place in 2018-2019.

    The type of power plant it is finally approved.


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Dima on Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:34 pm

    Rmf wrote:`primakov? that jewish guy who changed his name....
    Its good to see the most powerful class of ship to enter Russian service getting named after Yevgeny Primakov. A well deserved one. thumbsup

    Being Jewish is not a crime, but being Jewish and backstabbing Russia for greater love of Israel and west should not be tolerated. All such assoles need to be delt with.
    One moron is that Medvedev, dont know if its his jooish part that make him such an assole or if he is a born idiot. Whatever he is the darling of the west in the Russian Govt. Combined with another assole Sarkozy with jooish background they fu$ked up Russia big time with an utterly useless multi-billion contract for Mistral. Mad

    Here is a good read on Primakov
    Primakov Would Have Run Russia as Putin Has
    15 Jun 26, 2015 2:00 PM EDT
    By Leonid Bershidsky



    Former Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov, who died Friday, was once Vladimir Putin's most credible rival for the Russian presidency. Had he won, Russia probably would have embarked on its anti-Western course even earlier. His story demonstrates the inevitability of that swing after Boris Yeltsin gave up power in the last minutes of 1999.

    Primakov had a distinguished career as a Soviet academic specializing in the Middle East. By the time the Soviet Union collpased, he ran an important foreign policy research institute, was a top functionary at the Academy of Sciences and a top adviser to President Mikhail Gorbachev. In the summer of 1991, a coup hatched by the KGB temporarily toppled Gorbachev. When he came back, the last Soviet leader attempted to clean up the omnipresent security services by appointing civilian loyalists to top positions. Primakov was tapped to run the foreign intelligence part of the organization, the first civilian to hold the job.

    Less than four months after his appointment, the Soviet Union was dissolved. Almost immediately after taking over at the Kremlin, Yeltsin broke up the KGB. After some hesitation, he kept Primakov on as boss of the newly formed Foreign Intelligence Service, known by the Russian acronym SVR. The academic quickly earned the respect of intelligence professionals by keeping on all the key people and hardly ever pulling rank -- and, not least, by refusing the general's rank that came with the post.

    He lasted four years at the SVR, but he left his mark on the largely unreformed, though somewhat downsized, organization. In 1993, on his watch, SVR published a white paper, "The Prospects of NATO Expansion and Russia's Interests," one of the first documents to reflect Russia's emerging preoccupation with the U.S.'s perceived desire to marginalize it. The intelligence service bombarded Yeltsin with similar classified reports.  The Russian president, however, considered Western leaders as allies through most of his first term.

    As the 1996 presidential election drew closer, though, Yeltsin was no longer so sure. Being friendly with the West didn't translate into any particular benefits for Russia. Yeltsin was ready to fire pro-Western Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev, and offered Primakov his job. Once in the position, the former intelligence boss made no secret of his sympathies: He set about re-establishing ties with the Soviet Union's longtime allies in the Arab world, such as Syria and Saddam Hussein's Iraq. He made no attempt to hide his support for Slobodan Milosevic's Serbia, opposing the U.S. every inch of the way on the independence of Kosovo.  "Could one say Primakov was anti-American?" Leonid Mlechin wrote in a biography of Primakov. "It would be more precise to say that the United States' prosperity, luck and assertiveness unconsciously irritated him."

    In part under Primakov's influence, Yeltsin, too, began to stress the need for a "multipolar world" -- a phrase Putin now uses when he talks about the need to curb U.S. dominance.

    Yeltsin respected Primakov enough to install him as prime minister after Russia defaulted on its debt in 1998. That didn't work out too well, though:  Primakov clashed with Yeltsin's family, which, together with the oligarchs Boris Berezovsky and Roman Abramovich, was trying to run the country as a private fiefdom while Yeltsin had lengthening hospital stays. Primakov's attempts to introduce more government control along familiar Soviet lines irritated Berezovsky, and investigations initiated at Primakov's behest directly threatened the oligarch. In May 1999,  Yeltsin fired  Primakov, but not before the prime minister, who was flying to Washington to meet with International Monetary Fund officials, ordered his plane to turn back after learning the U.S. had started bombing Serbia.

    The abrupt firing angered Primakov, and he decided to enter politics. He formed a party with then-Moscow Mayor Yury Luzhkov for the 1999 parliamentary elections. Berezovsky and the Yeltsin family collaborated to thwart him. For example, the oligarch's TV channel, which had the biggest audience in Russia, aired footage of 70-year-old Primakov undergoing leg surgery -- an image intended to suggest that the former intelligence chief was old and infirm. The general message was that Primakov was a Communist sympathizer who would take Russia back to a Soviet-style planned economy and an isolationist foreign policy.

    Ironically, the men portrayed as the modern, dynamic alternative were Putin and Sergei Shoigu, now Putin's defense minister. Primakov's party,  Fatherland -- All Russia, lost to their Unity party. After Primakov gave up the idea of running for president, the parties merged, and Yeltsin resigned, bequeathing Russia to Putin.

    This did Berezovsky little good: Soon enough, he was in exile, plotting Putin's overthrow. Yeltsin's wealthy relatives and Abramovich, however, escaped persecution because they bowed to Putin.

    The new president was only 47, and he initially appeared much more progressive and pro-Western: He even talked about the possibility of Russia joining NATO. By his second presidential term, however, Putin was channeling Primakov: vowing to strengthen state control of the economy and setting himself up as a staunch opponent of U.S. expansionism.

    Here's a little test:  Does the following quote belong to Putin or Primakov?

       Russia approaches universal human values such as democracy by its own road, taking into account its traditions, history, the multiethnic character of the state, its geographic position. Like many othwer countries, it doesn't accept the groundless, abstract foreign instructions, and it won't have any societal or government models imposed on it.

    (It's from Primakov's 2009 book titled "A World Without Russia," but it could have been from any of a dozen Putin policy speeches).

    In 1999, when Yeltsin's succession was being decided, Primakov could have prevailed, had he been feistier and more willing to take on Berezovsky's media. By 2015, however, Russia's battle lines, and probably its economy, would have been in the same place as they are now. This outcome is not related to Putin's personality, and not even about his foreign intelligence background and the common origins of his and Primakov's worldview. Someone with that ideology was destined to run Russia after Yeltsin. The country's expectations of friendship with the West remained unrealized, and nostalgia for the Soviet Union's might prevailed.

    Primakov died at 85. Putin is only 62. His victory in 1999 ensured that Russia would stay its current course much longer than Primakov could promise.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  kvs on Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:17 pm

    Good choice to name the ship after Primakov. The above article skimps his major contribution after 1998 when he changed
    Russia's economic policy. The monetarist witch doctor voodoo economics was thrown out and the country was set on the
    road to recovery. If we had some scumbag like Kudrin in charge in 1998-1999, the country would have entered a super
    depression.

    Read this POS article:

    http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1998-11-26/news/9811250562_1_russian-parliament-primakov-boris-yeltsin

    this is simply indirect confirmation gold and affirms Primakov's correct choices in the wake of the 1998 meltdown.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Firebird on Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:34 pm



    Its very interesting to see just how big this ship is for a so called destroyer.

    17.5k tons, for a ship with probably high levels of automation, thats pretty big. Not THAT far off Kirov size. We can guess that lasers, railguns and S-400 or S-500 are part of the plans.

    But I wonder how it will integrate with the rest of the navy. Obviously one benefit of its size is its range and its ability to handle rough seas. That suggests an element of power projection.

    There will probably be some huge changes with naval forces in the next 10, 20, 30 yrs. Drones and underwater drones, satellite technology etc are just some. Lasers, multi stage missiles eg warheads leave a "mother" missile and the mother missile returns to base. Or missiles with lasers attached. Tiny micro subs. Perhaps missile launchers that dig into the sea bed.

    So I wonder if the new Lider class destroyer will be part of a battle group with larger cruisers. Or with an aircraft carrier. Perhaps new large submarines will play a large part in the process too. For instance, submarine "mother ships" capable of launching a mini swarm of drone subs.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:05 pm

    Primakov was definitely a man who was ahead of his time. He laid the groundwork for today's Russian foreign policy; promoting a multi-polar world, Russia-China-India triad, opposing NATO expansion, etc...

    We don't hear much about him because his tenure as foreign minister was quite short, but it was here where he had the most impact and laid out the foundations that Lavrov would later build upon and Putin would later deem as priorities some 10 years after Primakov's tenure.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Tyloe on Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:19 am

    Krylov State Scientific Center handed over the preliminary design of lider to the navy. Another bureau will soon be in charge of the basic and final design of the class.

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3737

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:53 pm

    Firebird wrote:

    Its very interesting to see just how big this ship is for a so called destroyer.

    17.5k tons, for a ship with probably high levels of automation, thats pretty big. Not THAT far off Kirov size. We can guess that lasers, railguns and S-400 or S-500 are part of the plans.

    But I wonder how it will integrate with the rest of the navy. Obviously one benefit of its size is its range and its ability to handle rough seas. That suggests an element of power projection.

    There will probably be some huge changes with naval forces in the next 10, 20, 30 yrs. Drones and underwater drones, satellite technology etc are just some. Lasers, multi stage missiles eg warheads leave a "mother" missile  and the mother missile returns to base. Or missiles with lasers attached. Tiny micro subs. Perhaps missile launchers that dig into the sea bed.

    So I wonder if the new Lider class destroyer will be part of  a battle group with larger cruisers. Or with an aircraft carrier. Perhaps new large submarines will play a large part in the process too. For instance, submarine "mother ships" capable of launching a mini swarm of drone subs.


    17k tons is a Cruiser class, like how America with that new ship of their's the Railgun mounted DD was meant to replace their cruiser force it had the name "Destroyer but had the tonnage of a cruiser. It's word games is all.

    Also I don't think we will see Russian lasers or railguns soon. They never never shown the ability to even test that stuff.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:58 pm

    Look up A-60. As well on Russian electromagnetic guns.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Militarov on Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:17 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Firebird wrote:

    Its very interesting to see just how big this ship is for a so called destroyer.

    17.5k tons, for a ship with probably high levels of automation, thats pretty big. Not THAT far off Kirov size. We can guess that lasers, railguns and S-400 or S-500 are part of the plans.

    But I wonder how it will integrate with the rest of the navy. Obviously one benefit of its size is its range and its ability to handle rough seas. That suggests an element of power projection.

    There will probably be some huge changes with naval forces in the next 10, 20, 30 yrs. Drones and underwater drones, satellite technology etc are just some. Lasers, multi stage missiles eg warheads leave a "mother" missile  and the mother missile returns to base. Or missiles with lasers attached. Tiny micro subs. Perhaps missile launchers that dig into the sea bed.

    So I wonder if the new Lider class destroyer will be part of  a battle group with larger cruisers. Or with an aircraft carrier. Perhaps new large submarines will play a large part in the process too. For instance, submarine "mother ships" capable of launching a mini swarm of drone subs.


    17k tons is a Cruiser class, like how America with that new ship of their's the Railgun mounted DD was meant to replace their cruiser force it had the name "Destroyer but had the tonnage of a cruiser. It's word games is all.

    Also I don't think we will see Russian lasers or railguns soon. They never never shown the ability to even test that stuff.

    You have flying laboratory Сокол-Эшелон A-60




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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:18 pm

    Russian electromagnetic radiation guns. Aren't Railguns.

    Hm I didn't know about the 60 still doesn't look like it will be operational for a ship weapon anytime soon. Maybe on the class after the leader tho if they get it work work right.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Militarov on Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:24 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Russian electromagnetic radiation guns. Aren't Railguns.

    Hm I didn't know about the 60 still doesn't look like it will be operational for a ship weapon anytime soon. Maybe on the class after the leader tho if they get it work work right.

    Actually in US Navy there is only 1 LaWS deployed, and it was never used in any kind of combat. So real laster weapons are still items from future.

    A60 is supposed to act aganist satelties, its not ment to be shipborne ever, however Russians did apparently test downscaled models of railguns.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:25 pm

    You need to brush up a bit. A-60 program wasn't even the first Soviet laser system. They had a ground based one too. Rail gun is essentially a electromagnetic gun. And yes, Russia also tested them.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Militarov on Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:43 pm

    sepheronx wrote:You need to brush up a bit. A-60 program wasn't even the first Soviet laser system. They had a ground based one too. Rail gun is essentially a electromagnetic gun. And yes, Russia also tested them.

    There was 1K17 Szhatie



    There was also shipborne laser system OS-90 “FOROS” which used laser system dubbed "Aquilon"





    There was also SLK 1K11 "Stiletto":



    SLK "Sanguinius":



    There were also two tracked chemical contamination tracking and detection systems using "laser radars" but they were not ment to harm.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:15 pm

    Have any data on these tests and to the scale the tests got carried out? time period etc? have they been tested since.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:18 pm

    A-60 been tested frequently. Ground based wasn't too long ago but I don't know if since at all.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:30 pm

    A-60 first flew in 1981...

    Most of those laser vehicles are from 1980s too.


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Project Canada on Fri May 20, 2016 2:28 pm

    quick question, since the Leader is still in the planning/design stages, would it be possible to copy/incorporate some of Zumwalt's stealth features into it? from what I read about Zumwalt many commentators say its got good stealth..,

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 20, 2016 2:45 pm

    Project Canada wrote:quick question, since the Leader is still in the planning/design stages, would it be possible to copy/incorporate some of Zumwalt's stealth features into it? from what I read about Zumwalt many commentators say its got good stealth..,

    It is a 16 stories tall object in the middle of an ocean. It is getting detected no matter what.

    Stealth is for use against 3rd world militaries. Any military worth a damn will find it.

    A sales pitch nothing else.

    But Lider will have stealth features of course just won't be built around it.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Militarov on Fri May 20, 2016 3:05 pm

    Project Canada wrote:quick question, since the Leader is still in the planning/design stages, would it be possible to copy/incorporate some of Zumwalt's stealth features into it? from what I read about Zumwalt many commentators say its got good stealth..,

    Zumwalt as they claim has RCS of a "Small fishing boat". Naturally this is comparision journalists like to use. But its stealth features seem to be very well thought out.

    Leader will be stealthier than todays destroyers in Russian navy but i wouldnt expect it to be comparable to Zumwalt in that aspect.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Tyloe on Fri May 20, 2016 6:01 pm

    Project Canada wrote:quick question, since the Leader is still in the planning/design stages, would it be possible to copy/incorporate some of Zumwalt's stealth features into it? from what I read about Zumwalt many commentators say its got good stealth..,

    Zumwalt's only a tech demonstrator with only 3 ships planned for commission. Mainly used to test an IEP drive and power hungry railguns and laser CWIS, weapon systems that Leader will also likely field. The USN's actual next-gen front line destroyer (2030-2040) will revert to a conventional hull and look something of a stealthier Burke.

    If the design model remains consistent then it's stealth features should be similiar to Type 45 and other modern European destroyers.

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