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    MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

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    Sassanidsaxon

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    MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

    Post  Sassanidsaxon on Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:35 pm

    Long time lurker first time poster, but I thankful to be able to find such a wealth of information here.  My first question for you guys:  Would any MiG-29M2 ordered from the introduction of the MiG-29MRCA (2003/2004) to the resent day have been a new build aircraft, or would they have been refurbished older examples such as the 28 MiG-29SMTs that Algeria rejected in 2007? (now flying for the Russians I believe).  

      I know that Syria had ordered MiG-29M/M2s but that their delivery had been delayed due to the conflict there, are these aircraft new builds based on the Indian MiG-29K/Kub?  

     Finally, are these these MiGs compatible with western targeting pods such as the Thales Damocles that Malaysia uses on the Su-30MKM?  I know that MiG was enhancing their A2G capacities significantly from the MiG-29SMT onwards, and was wondering if such advanced strike capabilities were available for new build MiG-29M2s.  

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    Mike E

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    Re: MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

    Post  Mike E on Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:16 pm

    welcome To the Forum! 

    (To be honest, this isn't a topic I know a whole ton on. So I might need to be corrected.)

    I believe that the MiG-29M2 could be a whole new aircraft and/or an "upgrade package" like the original MiG-29M

    If the Syrians do receive the M2 variant, they would probably be new aircraft (?). As they would not be an upgrade of Syria's current MiG-29 fleet.

    My guess is that the M2's are compatible with "targeting pods", but I know that they don't come standard. The SMT variant is built to be "flexible" when it comes to avionics. So, this is something I'm not sure about. Question
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    mack8

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    Re: MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

    Post  mack8 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:54 pm

    I know that Syria had ordered MiG-29M/M2s but that their delivery had been delayed due to the conflict there, are these aircraft new builds based on the Indian MiG-29K/Kub?

    Exactly. The K/KUB is the new generation airframe that forms the base for the land based MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-35. And yes, if MiG-35 would have been selected, all 126 would have been new built, very similar in appearance to the K/KUB or M/M2, AND at a fraction of the Rafale's cost! Finally, i'm sure the Damocles pod can be integrated if demanded.
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    Mike E

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    Re: MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

    Post  Mike E on Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:08 am

    Ok, that makes sense. It also means I was wrong... Embarassed 

    Thanks for correcting me!
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:42 am

    As a long term lurker you might have noticed out section on members rules and introductions.

    Too late now, but your first post should have been an introduction in the introductions section.

    Please post an introduction there at your earliest convenience.. Smile

    Regarding your questions:

    Would any MiG-29M2 ordered from the introduction of the MiG-29MRCA (2003/2004) to the resent day have been a new build aircraft, or would they have been refurbished older examples such as the 28 MiG-29SMTs that Algeria rejected in 2007? (now flying for the Russians I believe).

    the MiG-29M2 is the basis for a new structural design of the MiG-29, so it is not an upgrade because there are no previously mass produced versions to base the upgrade on.

    The SMT is an upgrade intended to improve older models to MiG-29M like standard depending on the model.

    When Algeria ordered MiG-29SMTs they knew it is a upgrade applied to existing production aircraft... their complaints basically started when Sukhoi offered Flankers for the same price MIG was selling Fulcrums... at which point the Algerians rejected the smaller lighter aircraft for the larger more capable types.

    the MRCA would have involved 16 new build MiGs from Russia and the remaining aircraft (110) assembled and built in India... and at a fraction of the cost of Rafales too BTW.

    I know that Syria had ordered MiG-29M/M2s but that their delivery had been delayed due to the conflict there, are these aircraft new builds based on the Indian MiG-29K/Kub?

    The MiG-29M2 and MiG-29K2 are either not in service with anyone or are brand new and so using an existing MiG-29M2 or MiG-29K2 to upgrade is not an option. there are no production MiG-35s, so if you want a MiG-29M2, a MiG-29K2, or MiG-35 they will have to be new builds.

    Conversely the old model MiG-29 is no longer in production so if you want a MiG-29SMT then it has to be a rebuild.

    Finally, are these these MiGs compatible with western targeting pods such as the Thales Damocles that Malaysia uses on the Su-30MKM? I know that MiG was enhancing their A2G capacities significantly from the MiG-29SMT onwards, and was wondering if such advanced strike capabilities were available for new build MiG-29M2s.

    MiG-29s from the M model onwards (ie from 1988) were designed with a fully digital data bus and onboard computer network, so yes... Damocles should be able to be integrated... just a question of writing the drivers so the existing hardware and software and displays and controls work with it.

    Of course they are working hard on a range of aircraft mounted pods as well as integrated systems for targeting air and ground targets, so it might not make sense to add Damocles when you could add the sensor suite fitted to the MiG-35.

    I believe that the MiG-29M2 could be a whole new aircraft and/or an "upgrade package" like the original MiG-29M

    Pretty much correct.

    If the Syrians do receive the M2 variant, they would probably be new aircraft (?). As they would not be an upgrade of Syria's current MiG-29 fleet.

    Correct too. The existing MiGs could get an SMT upgrade or be swapped for more M2s.


    My guess is that the M2's are compatible with "targeting pods", but I know that they don't come standard. The SMT variant is built to be "flexible" when it comes to avionics. So, this is something I'm not sure about.

    Correct too.

    Ok, that makes sense. It also means I was wrong...

    Not really. the M2 and K2 and 35 all share the same airframe that is new and different from previous airframes and are the only airframes currently in production.

    new build has to be M2, K2, or 35 therefore. SMT is an upgrade and can be applied to older model aircraft.

    In many ways the 35 is the upgraded design with all the bells and whistles.... so I suspect the K2 could get 35 features like AESA etc as could the M2.

    As it stands the K2 is naval model while M2 is good standard and 35 is best available


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    Re: MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

    Post  Mike E on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:24 pm

    Ok GarryB, thanks for correcting me on how correct I really was...

    Does anyone know when Syria will be receiving their new MiG's? My guess would be after the civil war ends, but who knows when or if they will even be delivered. Question
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    Re: MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:28 am

    We likely wont find out till they are delivered...

    BTW regarding the original MiG-29M the main difference between that aircraft and the aircraft before it was that of the way they use space inside the aircraft.

    You might have seen close up photos of early model MiG-29s and the fit between the panels was relatively poor... there were gaps and the skin wasn't perfectly smooth.

    A critical factor here is that the skin was just a skin so the skin over a compartment that was used for fuel will have a few gaps in it but it didn't matter because inside that compartment was a fuel tank that contained the fuel. It also didn't matter for aerodynamics for the same reason golf balls have dents in them rather than have them perfectly smooth.

    When air flows over the surface of a golf ball or a MiG-29s wing the air right at the surface of the ball or plane is actually rather chaotic and is called the boundry layer. If the layer is smooth it does not stick to the surface and leaves the ball at its edge so the drag volume is measured to the edge of the ball. With dimples or an irregular surface the air sticks to the surface for a big and only leaves the surface after it has travelled around the ball or the aircraft surface... which means the drag volume is reduced which lowers drag and improves flight performance.

    The huge breakthrough for the M model MiG-29, which first flew in 1988 BTW, was to use a wielded skin of lighter stronger materials. Because it was wielded rather than riveted the compartments inside the structure were sealed so you didn't need extra weight like fuel tanks as the skin formed the outer surface of the fuel tank.

    This made the aircraft lighter and stronger and all of a sudden any sealed section of structure could be used as a fuel tank.

    The Fly by wire system also mean no need for hydraulic pipes and structures throughout the air frame.

    The MiG-29S was the late model production aircraft and the SM added improved avionics and weapon options, while the T was added the hump back for extra fuel. These upgrades could be applied to previous models of Fulcrum, but production of those models has ended.

    If you want a Fulcrum now there is the MiG-29M2 and the carrier based version the MiG-29K2, and soon we will see the MiG-35 enter service with the Russian AF.

    The Indian MRCA saw the MiG-35 developed, but after its rejection the Russian AF has made a few unknown demands and will start to receive the aircraft in 2016 or so.


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    TR1

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    Re: MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

    Post  TR1 on Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:03 pm

    Honestly the new MiG-29M/35 doesn't have the greatest looking airframe gaps either, compared to Sukhois latest.
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    mack8

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    Re: MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

    Post  mack8 on Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:28 pm

    May i respectfully recommend that this topic should be moved in for instance the VVS section? Thank you.
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    Re: MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:04 am

    Honestly the new MiG-29M/35 doesn't have the greatest looking airframe gaps either, compared to Sukhois latest.

    Would suggest you post evidence... few of the photos I have of either aircraft are close ups, but the few I have showing the unpainted aircraft show very smooth surfaces like this example with the combination of yellow composite materials with no gaps at all.



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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:07 am

    May i respectfully recommend that this topic should be moved in for instance the VVS section? Thank you.

    I might leave it here as the question relates to two aircraft in their export versions.


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    mack8

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    Re: MiG-29 Export versions: MiG-29M/M2, MiG-29SMT

    Post  mack8 on Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:19 pm

    Fair enough, thanks Garry.

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