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    Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

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    max steel
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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  max steel on Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:33 pm

    US ASUW Skills have been pretty bleak . Told you already . No idea about Russia asw skills .

    nastle77
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    Role of soviet navy in Angola conflict

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:01 pm

    Just wanted to see if any English language sources are available for this , e.g the ships involved in escorting the Cubans to angola and to safeguard the supplies to MPLA
    Most specifically about a Kresta II cruiser Admiral Makarov which apparently provided fire support for the MPLA would be awesome if any details of this operation are known


    sepheronx
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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:55 pm

    do you have info in other languages we could go through by any chance?

    nastle77
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    TNW use in naval warfare

    Post  nastle77 on Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:33 pm

    What was the soviet doctrine for use of TNW ( tactical nuclear weapons) in naval warfare during the late cold war
    I have not seen any work in English dedicated to this subject but passing references here or in other books articles

    from what I can understand the following POTENTIAL uses

    1-Attack enemy naval bases with TNW tipped cruise missiles

    2-Use of TNW torpedoes to attack western SSBN and SSGN

    3-Use of TNW tipped AS-4 by naval aviation Tu-22/16 to attack enemy SAG

    4-Use of TNW tipped SAM against enemy aircraft

    5-use of TNW tipped ASW rockets against subs by ASW ships


    Is this true ? were the TNW a regular feature of soviet naval excercises ( mock use of them ofcourse) and were they serious about first use of TNW at sea , to counter their inferiority against superior western navies ?

    any work/article in English dedicated to that will be appreciated

    GarryB
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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:25 am

    Sorry, can't help you with articles, but I have read in western literature that it was suspected that one role for the nuclear armed torpedoes was to fire one from a distance at a western port to take out the entire port.

    Reportedly 1/4th of all major weapons on Russian ships were nuclear armed... from large calibre guns (ie 130mm), to large SAMs and of course anti ship and anti sub weapons.


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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:47 pm

    ^ appreciate it nevertheless
    I suspect naval TNW have a higher chance of being used in anger than those on land.Plus the inferiority of the individual ships may bemore than compensated if they can get even one hot against a western SAG
    What are your thoughts ?

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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:20 am

    Most of the western literature I read in the 80s thought that any nuclear conflict would likely start at sea simply because most vessels were likely equipped with nuclear weapons and when you know the enemy has nuclear weapons too it becomes a case of use it or lose the ability to use it...

    Of course the naval component of WWIII was considered secondary and largely for the Soviets an opportunity to affect the US's ability to send troops and equipment to europe, and to launch SLBMs from safe areas.

    With no lines of communications or main transport links the Soviets would not really be effected by their entire navy disappearing overnight.


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    Role of Soviet navy in the 80s

    Post  nastle77 on Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:53 pm

    Wanted to start this discussion
    At the height of its power in the cold war in the 1980s the soviet navy was primarily a Sea denial navy or Sea control navy ?

    Please present the arguments in favor of either one

    max steel
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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  max steel on Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:58 pm

    Soviet Union aka Russia was always a global sea denial Navy.

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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  Isos on Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:00 pm

    I would say neither. It was more an "instrument than a navy".

    They just had to sunk aircraft carriers and protect nuclear subs.

    All navies have denial capabilities. If you can fight in open sea you can defend you coasts.

    Soviet used navy and airforce to protect ground forces. US uses navy like it's an lonely army that have to bombs evry single tank without the need of using ground forces.

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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  max steel on Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:04 pm

    Russian Navy can't fight in open seas unlike Soviet Navy rest they can defend very well. Thats why US Navy is pushing for to combat in littoral waters ( this is where US Navy believes their brute force will help )

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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  nastle77 on Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:24 pm

    max steel wrote:Russian Navy can't fight in open seas unlike Soviet Navy rest they can defend very well. Thats why US Navy is pushing for to combat in littoral waters ( this is where US Navy believes their brute force  will help )

    and USSR did not need a sea control navy anyway

    How good was the sea denial capability of the Red navy in the mid 80s ? I mean the SSGN, AVMF and rocket ships had the capabililty to deny enemy amphib landings on multiple fronts simultenously e.g coordinated assaults on Balatic, Black and Pacific coasts ?

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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  Isos on Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:15 pm

    nastle77 wrote:
    max steel wrote:Russian Navy can't fight in open seas unlike Soviet Navy rest they can defend very well. Thats why US Navy is pushing for to combat in littoral waters ( this is where US Navy believes their brute force  will help )

    and USSR did not need a sea control navy anyway

    How good was the sea denial capability of the Red navy in the mid 80s ? I mean the SSGN, AVMF and rocket ships had the capabililty to deny enemy amphib landings on multiple fronts simultenously e.g coordinated assaults on Balatic, Black and Pacific coasts ?

    Very good !!

    First you had to fight their big ships in open seas. Then you have to go throught long range aviation attacks. Then small ships with missiles and Su-24 and coastal missiles, kilos... So amphibious landing were impossible on USSR.

    Moreover to go to the baltics you need to go in baltic sea, look on a map there is just one way to go there so enemy naval forces are detected a the biggining. Idem for black sea. In the pacifique, there is a lot of ice during most of the time, most of ships can't oparate there.

    Multiple landings against USSR is not a good idea as you will send fewer ships on every landing than in on big landing. And the advantage will be to soviet forces as they are on their soil and have more troops, aviation there.

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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  nastle77 on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:45 pm

    Isos wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:
    max steel wrote:Russian Navy can't fight in open seas unlike Soviet Navy rest they can defend very well. Thats why US Navy is pushing for to combat in littoral waters ( this is where US Navy believes their brute force  will help )

    and USSR did not need a sea control navy anyway

    How good was the sea denial capability of the Red navy in the mid 80s ? I mean the SSGN, AVMF and rocket ships had the capabililty to deny enemy amphib landings on multiple fronts simultenously e.g coordinated assaults on Balatic, Black and Pacific coasts ?

    Very good !!

    First you had to fight their big ships in open seas.  Then you have to go throught long range aviation attacks. Then small ships with missiles and Su-24 and coastal missiles, kilos... So amphibious landing were impossible on USSR.

    Moreover to go to the baltics you need to go in baltic sea, look on a map there is just one way to go there so enemy naval forces are detected a the biggining. Idem for black sea. In the pacifique, there is a lot of ice during most of the time, most of ships can't oparate there.

    Multiple landings against USSR is not a good idea as you will send fewer ships on every landing than in on big landing. And the advantage will be to soviet forces as they are on their soil and have more troops, aviation there.
    How good was the su24 fencer in the antishipping role ? I mean did it have standoff ASM like the backfires ?
    And if it's weapons were close range wasn't it vulnerable to SAM carried by escorting destroyers?

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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  Isos on Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:17 am

    They have kh-31 : >100km range. Simple bombs too.

    SAM were not as good as today. Look at Falklands war. But most of the job wold have been done by TU-22s and Tu-95.

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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  nastle77 on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:47 pm

    Isos wrote:They have kh-31 : >100km range. Simple bombs too.

    SAM were not as good as today. Look at Falklands war. But most of the job wold have been done by TU-22s and Tu-95.
    true was there a antishipping version of Tu 95 too ? I mean the Bear G what the NATO calley could carry kh22 right ?
    Also in the 80's the kh29 or AS14 was a much more widely used ASM , how would you rate that against warships ?
    Probably against corvettes and frigates without sophisticated SAM it probably has a chance ?


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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:07 pm

    Also in the 80's the kh29 or AS14 was a much more widely used ASM , how would you rate that against warships ?
    Probably against corvettes and frigates without sophisticated SAM it probably has a chance ?

    It would lack raw range, which would mean it would have to be launched from too close a range... but its 320kg HE warhead would have been devastating to any size ship... it has a semi shaped charge 318kg HE warhead designed to undermine the concrete foundations of heavy bridges... so as I said... a ship would feel it... even the biggest of ships.

    The most likely weapon it would use would be the Kh-59 and Kh-59M... known in the west as AS-13 and AS-18. These are 115km range and 250 km range tv guided missiles with a datalink system that feeds a video image that the missile sees of its target back to the launch aircraft. the crewman then puts the crosshair on the target to be attacked and then the missile hits what it has been aimed at...

    The US equivalent is SLAM and SLAM-ER respectively.


    Last edited by GarryB on Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  Khepesh on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:20 pm

    Under Admiral Gorshkov the Soviet Navy became primarily a sea control navy. This was achieved by maintaining a presence off the territorial waters of potential enemy countries, and a presence off, and within, the territorial waters of friendly countries such as Cuba, and other countries that were favorably disposed to Soviet Union. The fleet was also configured to control the sea by interdiction of enemy forces by the heavy cruisers, either the hybrids with a rear flight deck for helicopters, a sort of revival of the IJN Mogami heavy cruisers, and the heavy missile cruisers and all the various types of destroyers and frigates that accompany them, and of course the attack submarines and anti-ship missile submarines. The Baltic Fleet was to actively destroy NATO naval forces in the Baltic and create conditions for large scale amphibious landings, tho GSFG would likely have swept along the coast before any amphibious landings were needed. Perhaps the best example of this sea control philosophy was the creation of the project 949A Antei class submarines specifically designed to destroy American carrier task forces.

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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  nastle77 on Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Also in the 80's the kh29 or AS14 was a much more widely used ASM , how would you rate that against warships ?
    Probably against corvettes and frigates without sophisticated SAM it probably has a chance ?

    It would lack raw range, which would mean it would have to be launched from too close a range... but its 320kg HE warhead would have been devastating to any size ship... it has a semi shaped charge 318kg HE warhead designed to undermine the concrete foundations of heavy bridges... so as I said... a ship would feel it... even the biggest of ships.

    The most likely weapon it would use would be the Kh-59 and Kh-59M... known in the west as AS-13 and AS-18. These are 115km range and 250 km range tv guided missiles with a datalink system that feeds a video image that the missile sees of its target back to the launch aircraft. the crewman then puts the crosshair on the target to be attacked and then the missile hits what it has been aimed at...

    The US equivalent is SLAM and SLAM-ER respectively.
    indeed so the kh29 maybe useful in ambush situations in the littorals , fiord's and waters where the su24 is more likely to encounter enemy transports , troopships or escort destroyers where they cannot employ their long range SAM effectively maybe because of thr background clutter.
    A San Carlos bay like situation ?

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    Re: Role of Soviet Νavy in the 80s

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:36 pm

    During the cold war, it seems like the Soviets might have used the "fleet in being strategy" not just with their SSBN but also with the major units of their surface fleet.
    Just the presence of an action group consisting of a Kiev/Kirov/Slav/Oscar/ supported by half dozen SSGN and half dozen destroyers armed with Anti-ship missiles and screened by ASW frigates, under SAM umbrella, in range of shore based PVO interceptors is a VERY potent force in addition they can have a regiment of Backfire plus a regiment of BAdgers all armed with long range anti-ship missiles to support them and they can maintain such a force in Black sea/Pacific AND Northern fleets tying up siginifcant NATO forces far out of proportion of their own strength.

    So my guess is that soviets were better of using their fleet this way rather than risk it in small groups on the high seas out of range of their aircraft and vulnerable to NATO SSN /CVBG

    Only scenario where soviets could be better of in the high seas if both sides are using tactical nukes then the higher percentage of TNW carried by soviet subs and surface ships may equalize the odds in a way against the superior NATO navys

    I would argue in a conventional war the "fleet in being" is the best use of their fleet.Here they are protected ( relatively) by western SSN, better chance against air attacks and definately better chance against western anti-ship missiles.

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