Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Werewolf
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5252
    Points : 5455
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:26 am

    The ATGM was not effective mostly because of the tree infront of the tank and the ATGM operator tried to guide the rocket at least to the side of the tank that was visiable instead of risking to guide the missile into the tree and waste it.
    avatar
    Mindstorm

    Posts : 868
    Points : 1035
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:21 pm

    TR1 wrote:And your proof for that is....hopes? Wishes? Dreams?


    I am with you TR1 on that : similar statements are in the same irrational , unsupported line of similar assertions at inverted spin.


    A balanced ,not fanatical ,line of reasoning capable to adapt itself to the extreme complexity and fluidity of the events of reality , is always appreciated (for not say one one the most clear marker of intelligence) in any debating context.

    For this reason i find your oftenly very critical, but rationally grounded positions, always worth of consideration and examination...... even when i not agree with your inferences or utter conclusions.

    For what this can matter ,therefore, i disassociate myself totally from any aggresive behaviour ...or worse mindsets....providing a simplicistic "black-white" picture of the reality ,including the image of the Russian Federation in general and of any of its main figures.  

    Obviously , and for the same identical reason, i find completely unacceptable  - often almost to the border of the parody - the clearly concerted attempt , by part of foreign controled media, to provide an horribly twisted and biased picture of events and person, ( particularly in relation with anything even remotely related to Russia).

    At example cold gaze to the converging forecasts on the future volume of world dollar exchanges and reserve stock around within the next two decades and its direct repercussions on the most artificially inflated economical system that humankind has ever known, could provide a clear hint for the rushed and more and more aggressive exertion of "Soft Power " in critical regions of the globe by part of the US and provide partial explanation to the measures and overall stance maintained by Federation' authorities at today.

    Do you know if time window is closing for guarantee to maintain ,in the middle term, at least a fragment of your today "inflated" influence and economic resources , you are forced to truly rush into things.....with outcomes often very far from what hoped or planned   Wink

    nemrod
    nemrod

    Posts : 828
    Points : 1326
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  nemrod on Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    ....the later video that appears to show a soldier being shot was clearly edited... the sound of the shot and the soldier falling are near simultaneous... bullets don't move that fast.

    Take care Garry! I forgot to add that the secund part of this video is part of palestinians's propaganda, it does not have a link with the supposed -or not ?- destroyed tank.

    Nevertheless, my objection about your point of view is not small.

    Let's suppose just one moment that none Merkava IV was destroyed, none armored vehicle was destroyed, and the figures of Israelis death is matching by IDF spokesmen. Let's suppose too that none anti-tanks missiles were effectives against Merkava, and its brother the Nammer.
    Then  why, after nearly one month Israel did not launch the great scale ground invasion as they did in 2008 ? In 2008, they broke Gaza in three parts, Israelis tanks were at nearly few dozens metters from Gaza' city center.
    Since july 7 a rain of roquettes and missiles are diving in Israel, many electric plants, israelis military basis were hit, and ...several airports including Ben Gurion's airport is stopped, as Asdod, and strategical Haifa port is completly stopped . Many nuclear power plants like Dimona is attacked too, nearly 6 millions of Israelis are inside the shelters for about 1 month in touristic period, where many money are spent by tourists. It is not worth to mention how bad is for the prestige of Israel where many migrants want to establish into Israel doing their "Aliaa". Aside the dramatic economic situation and the cost of the war, Hamas launched several opeerations inside Israel, and, nearly 70.000 israelis soldiers are ready.

    If Really the Trophy was effective-and I doubt-, knowing the military story of IDF, for a longtime ago, they were in Gaza, with most of the Hamas leaders were now dead, or jailed.
    If you do not believe me, OK, just take a look what's happenned during Lebanon in 1982, and you will realize how thinks are turning bad to Israel nowadays.

    In my view -I have no proofs, I only realized what's happened in the battlefield-, the anti tanks missiles either -RPG-29, or Kornet - are doing toll to Israelis ground army, the figures of IDF's deaths, and armored vehicles are are huge, and the so-called effectiveness of the Trophy is a mere hoax as Iron Dome.
    This is my point of view regarding what's happened in the battlefield and knowing Israelis army history.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22353
    Points : 22897
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:49 am

    Let's suppose just one moment that none Merkava IV was destroyed, none armored vehicle was destroyed, and the figures of Israelis death is matching by IDF spokesmen. Let's suppose too that none anti-tanks missiles were effectives against Merkava, and its brother the Nammer.

    APS are still relatively new technology... and they are designed to protect armour from specific threats... namely missiles and rockets. Even if they were 100% effective that does not mean all Israeli armour is safe. For every MBT and MBT based troop carrier there are dozens of lighter vehicles that can be targeted and destroyed with rockets and missiles. Rockets and missiles can be used against buildings or areas enemy soldiers are known to be taking cover. Equally APS systems will do nothing to an IED or land mine.

    Over time tactics and new weapon designs will allow such systems to be defeated... as I have mentioned a rifle with a projectile with a corner reflector in the tip could be used... to the defensive system the corner reflector would magnify the radar return of the projectile... the SA-6 surface to air missile is used in the Russian Army as a target for their SAMs to practise against... its natural RCS is rather small so when they are pretending it is a larger target they fit it with corner reflectors to make it appear to be a different weapon or aircraft.  The APS system would see the heavy calibre bullet... say 14.5mm round with a heavy projectile to allow it to fly 6-7km at trans sonic speeds like an anti tank missile or rocket... as a much larger object like a missile. the APS will not have the resolution to tell if it is a ATGM or Rocket or not so it will have to act... a corner reflector is a shaped piece of metal... you could fit it with a plastic aerodynamic fairing to make it aerodynamically efficient for max speed and range... with a KPV machine gun you could fire 600 rounds per minute at a ground of Israeli tanks from 6km range. You could set it up behind cover so there is no direct line of sight for the tanks to fire back... fire a burst or half a dozen and then launch real missiles at the tanks once the APS systems have launched all their interceptor munitions... if the tank crews turn the systems off to save some munitions then fire real missiles and MG rounds at the same time...

    everything is a game of cat and mouse.. new technologies new counter technologies.

    This of course will create a change in the design of APS systems they will need better detection capability to distinguish fakes from real threats.

    effectiveness of the Trophy is a mere hoax as Iron Dome.
    This is my point of view regarding what's happened in the battlefield and knowing Israelis army history.

    I don't believe them either, they have no interest in the truth or peace. the problem is that this doesn't change my evaluation of the video you posted.. I agree with Werewolf... they were probably trying to avoid the tree...
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22353
    Points : 22897
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:11 am

    In addition to not being cheap with lots of fragile components... for most countries standard ERA would be more cost effective where the threat from rivals is not large enough to warrant the costs of APS systems.
    nemrod
    nemrod

    Posts : 828
    Points : 1326
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  nemrod on Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:In addition to not being cheap with lots of fragile components... for most countries standard ERA would be more cost effective where the threat from rivals is not large enough to warrant the costs of APS systems.

    It is right that I have not your knowledges regarding APS, and every military areas. Iam far to have your knowledges at all, however, what Iam sure, regarding military history, I've never seen in human history where hardware was decisive. Hastings battle showed that the cavalry was decisive, but in fact, it is not regarding cavalry itself, nor technology used, but among reasons was at first tactics, and because Harold's soldiers were tired.

    During the battle of Azincourt many thought the english won because of their "miracle" weapon nammed "Longbow". If indeed, the longbow contributed to the english victory, and the time of cavalry was started to end, the miracle weapon was mostly because of frencheese disaster tactic.
    The tank started to be used extensively in the battlefield during 1914-18 with mitigate results. Moreover, many said that during the secund world war this hardware was decisive because of german's blitz. Again, the blitz as the tank's "miracle" was stopped in winter 1941 by Marshall Jukov. If, indeed during Kursk battle, many tanks was used, nevertheless, the aircraft was the decisive weapon, mostly because german tactic was poor, and the german potential started to decline.

    During October 1973's war, AT-3 Sagger inflcted heavy losses to israelis tanks, israelis admited that at least 800 of their tanks were blown by the very wonderfull AT-3 Sagger. During the battle of the Bekaa, Israelis lost several dozens of their state-of-art Merkava because of anti tank missiles, the history repeated itself during 2006.

    If I observe now what's happened in Gaza, the tank with their Trophy could -if it is right ?- contributed to slow israelis losses, but the Trophy is far to be unvulnerable to the very effective AT-14 Kornet, or even every anti-tank hardwares.

    Seeing the israeli result presently, I realized that IDF is very reluctant to launch the ground invasion as they did in 2008 ?
    My question to you is why ? Fear from heavies losses ? I recall, Israel is helped by nearly all western countries, moreover, helped by Egypt, Saudi tribes, and many other arab-muslim countries.
    In the other side, Palestinians and uncommonly Hamas organisation is isoled by nearly all the world, including muslim world. The blockade deter any help from outside Gaza. They are nearly prisonners back to the wall.

    After nearly 4 weeks of war, untill now, Israel did not progress into Gaza, worse, palestinians launching recursively deadly incursion inside Israel, killing several dozens of israelis soldiers. No worth to add that many cities in Israel have no electricity because of palestinian missiles targeting most the power plant, they even blockade the Ben Gurion airport, strategic Haifa port, losing billions of $ du to this war.

    And many of you support mordicus that this so-called APS nammed "Trophy" seems to be a miracle weapon!

    I have not your knowledges, but seeing what I've seen this recent days, I can easily concluded that there are no another western miracle weapons -only with the hype and propaganda's imagination-. If Trophy could be effective -if it could ? We have the only israeli view-, it could be contributed to slightly decrease israelis armored vehicles losses.








    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22353
    Points : 22897
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:37 am

    I've never seen in human history where hardware was decisive.

    Decisive in what sense?

    During WWI the Germans and the western allies fought on the western front for a good years and moved very very occasionally. There were a few battles where the lines moved but the lines were mostly static. The weapons used were decisive against third world countries... the Machine Gun was devastating against black men armed with sharpened fruit paraphrasing Captain Blackadder. It was incredibly decisive and allowed relatively small European countries to control enormous numbers of subjects around the world. Against other European countries that also had machine guns it was not so decisive.., and neither was artillery or the air craft in its early models.

    Armour was very decisive for the Germans who managed to defeat all of western Europe in a couple of weeks when before it had taken four years of stalemate and enormous loss of life.

    They didn't even have very good tanks at the time.

    Again, the blitz as the tank's "miracle" was stopped in winter 1941 by Marshall Jukov.

    Just because the tank is decisive does not mean it is all conquering. After defeating all of western Europe the Germans could have stopped short of invading the Soviet Union and simply held their winnings.

    Hitler could have said WWII was about righting the wrongs of the end of WWII and the stuff about living space in the east was just stuff he wrote in his book.

    Seeing the israeli result presently, I realized that IDF is very reluctant to launch the ground invasion as they did in 2008 ?
    My question to you is why ?

    You are asking why they don't commit to a full invasion. I would counter that by saying the initial attack was based on the assumption that Hamas had something to do with the abduction and murder of three Israelis. This has since been proven not to be the case, so an attack intended to punish Hamas which they can no longer substantiate committed the crime... one has to ask why they are still there rather than why they are hesitating.

    And many of you support mordicus that this so-called APS nammed "Trophy" seems to be a miracle weapon!

    Please quote me praising Trophy on this or any other forum.

    I actually don't know much about it... it is not really interesting to me as it is not Russian or Soviet.
    nemrod
    nemrod

    Posts : 828
    Points : 1326
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  nemrod on Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:56 pm

    Step by step some usefull informations are begining to sweat from the western black out about the figures concerning the conflict between Israel and palestinians.
    The first it gave the number of woundeds about 1620
    http://en.apa.az/news/214856
    My friends told me that in a conflict we have an usual ratio between the number of deaths, and the number woundeds. If you have ten deaths, to know the number of casualties, the figure is about 40. Hence the ratio is about 4. Taking this figure of 1620, the number of deaths might be at least 300.
    The second is the witness -as iranian radio, as israeli media- of an israeli officer asserted that:
    http://french.irib.ir/info/moyen-orient/item/335947-sans-le-soutien-des-f16,-pas-un-soldat-ne-serait-sorti-vivant-isra%C3%ABl


    Without the support of israeli air force, none soldiers could survive....
    None soldier could survive ? And the Trophy ? This APS isn't supposed to protected the armored  vehicle and tanks ?
    Seeing these figures I understand better why Israel withdrew from Gaza, and why IDF did not cut the strip in three parts, as it did during the 2008 attacks.
    If these figures are corrects, and if we see what's happening, it prove that the effectiveness of Trophy is doubfull.
    Nevertheless, it is too early to give a conclusion. As the war restarted today august 8, let's wait and see. We will conclude after.
    nemrod
    nemrod

    Posts : 828
    Points : 1326
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  nemrod on Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:58 pm

    Step by step, day after day, the informations about israel-gaza's conflict are sweating, despite the black out triggered by israeli and western  media.
    In this following link
    http://french.irib.ir/info/moyen-orient/item/336713-arm%C3%A9e-isra%C3%A9lienne-malade-et-humili%C3%A9e

    An israeli expert assert the following sentence :

    ....le soldat israélien ne s'appuie plus à sa propre force et puissance il s'appuie à son char, son blindé et les missiles Kornet du Hamas ont dévoré ses chars...
     

    In english it gives:
    "...the israeli soldier.... used to rely on its tanks, however the hamas's kornet tore -israelis' -tanks to pieces.... "

    Again when Werewolf asserted that the Trophy neutralzed russian origine anti tanks missiles, I was at first very skeptical, however, I have not the knowledges of Werewolf, and I could not respond.
    Nevertheless, we learned recently that hundreds israelis soldiers refused fight in Gaza, and american forces were build up beside israelis. Moreover, and that is very important during spring 1982 in a few days Israel smashed PLO's fatah, and finally, Arafat was expelled from Lebanon. At Gaza in summer 2014, Israeli governement had the same goal, furthermore israeli governement was encouraged by several arab countries, and Israel was helped by Egypt as they maintained a watertight blockade.

    After nearly one month, Israel only penetrated few hundreds metters in Gaza, fearing the redoutable anti-tank missiles. After these events, I concluded that the Trophy is not enough effective to allow IDF to meet its goal, if it was effective-as we have the only israeli's version-. In my view, as I understood, the Trophy -as every APS in the world, including ARENA- is completly ineffective against modern anti tank missiles, especially regarding the RPG-29, AT-5, AT-6, etc.... and AT-14. The Trophy has the same Iron Dome' effectiveness, near 2-3% not more. It is perfect in laboratory, in Youtube, it works very well, however, once in the battlefield it is useless.

    My doubts about Trophy's uselessness were confirmed by Hachimoto's photos, it proves again and again that russian anti tanks missiles could destroy every tanks in the world -with aps or not- and untill now there are no solution to evade them, including the redoutable RPG-29, and a friend that is military said me even the RPG-7 is untill now a redoutable threat against all armored vehicle.


    Last edited by nemrod on Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Hannibal Barca
    Hannibal Barca

    Posts : 1330
    Points : 1342
    Join date : 2013-12-13

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:15 pm

    I have intelligence from this corner of the planet as well and my sources indicate that Palestinians did great. More importantly Jews scored very low.
    nemrod
    nemrod

    Posts : 828
    Points : 1326
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  nemrod on Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:01 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:I have intelligence from this corner of the planet as well and my sources indicate that Palestinians did great. More importantly Jews scored very low.


    Did you mean that they smashed many Merkava ? If so, how much Israelis tanks ?

    Hannibal Barca
    Hannibal Barca

    Posts : 1330
    Points : 1342
    Join date : 2013-12-13

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:04 pm

    Yes a lot. I will try to come back with a number for you. But I think Merkava's was much much less used compared to 2006 where it pretty much annihilated. Probably they knew..
    nemrod
    nemrod

    Posts : 828
    Points : 1326
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  nemrod on Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:09 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Yes a lot. I will try to come back with a number for you. But I think Merkava's was much much less used compared to 2006 where it pretty much annihilated. Probably they knew..

    It was said that at least 10 armored vehicles were disabled or destroyed, including some Merkava as the photos provided by Hachimoto witnessed.

    Hannibal Barca
    Hannibal Barca

    Posts : 1330
    Points : 1342
    Join date : 2013-12-13

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:20 pm

    When I find my man I will ask him in case he knows. He is Syrian. My speculation is that the number is much bigger.
    Mike E
    Mike E

    Posts : 2641
    Points : 2677
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:16 pm

    Isn't it funny that the Merkava IV is often called the best armored tank in the world. Yet, at the same time, many are destroyed even though they now have APS...
    nemrod
    nemrod

    Posts : 828
    Points : 1326
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  nemrod on Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:47 pm

    Mike E wrote:Isn't it funny that the Merkava IV is often called the best armored tank in the world. Yet, at the same time, many are destroyed even though they now have APS...

    West and especially USA and Israel used to call their hardwares as the best of the best. F-15, and F-22 aren't estimed as the best ? The only victories of the F-15 are, when they were sent at least 5 vs 1.
    In the fair configuration F-15, F-16, F-22, Merkava, M1 Abrams, F-18 are neither better, or extraodinary they are simply equal to others in the same configuration.
    The rest is a mere propaganda.

    Sponsored content

    Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV - Page 2 Empty Re: Gaza: RPG-29 and AT-14 Kornet vs Merkava IV

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:47 pm