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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

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    Strizh
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Strizh on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:28 am

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Will the separatists try to take more of Ukraine then the east?

    Nobody is going to take any Ukrainian land. Why should anybody take anything from Ukraine? They simply will free the occupied Novorussian territories.

    TheGeorgian
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  TheGeorgian on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:30 am

    flamming_python wrote:

    Every other such conflict has lasted years, this one has barely taken off and you're talking about accepting defeat?
    Na. Of course, it's ultimately up to the people that live there. But they aren't a submissive lot once they get going, which they have done already.

    It is in the interest of everyone. At least it should be.

    TR1
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:42 am

    TheArmenian wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    TR1 wrote:CIA must have infiltrated the Russian gov as well, that might explain why they are so shitty for the Russian people.

    This might be collectively the greatest thread I have ever read. The amount of conspiracy/wackjob theories is astounding.
    IDK man, shitty for Russian people You say? There are plenty of Russians who have more "bablo" than us, stupid hard working euros will ever have.

    And you just exposed the brutal truth of Russia- a giant wealth gap between all those Russians who got rich over the past 20 years (and they are damn well off) and the rest of the country, which is certainly NOT doing better than the majority of the EU.

    By some rankings Russia has the worst wealth inequality in the world. Sounds about right.

    TR1, the wealth gap is not limited to Russia, it is everywhere on this planet ...and it is getting worse each time I check it.
    The same argument can be used (and is being used) against the USA and the West and Africa etc.

    We are in diiiire straights if we are comparing ourselves to Africa.

    In regards to the US- how many of those millionaires earned their money compared to those in Russia? How many innovative, worldwide companies emerge from the US, and how many from Russia? Where are the Russian elite getting their income from?
    It is certainly true in the US the trend over the past 20-30 years has been more wealth concentration at the top, but lets not compare it to Russia.
    An average Russian citizen is far worse off in terms of economic standing and opportunity. Small Russian cities and villages are holes. Absolute holes.
    Hell even the big ones look like dumps in many places. Yes yes, there is Detroit, but let's be honest here. It is not a comparison that favors Russia.
    Moscow at one point had the most millionaires in the world. Do you know what the average income was? What sort of living situation the average person found themselves compared to the elites?

    Look, I've lived in both countries. It pains me to say, but its overall just a better life in the US today, no comparison.

    If corruption was gutted, rule of law enabled, and all those overnight millionaires were fined/jailed......then I would not say a word about rich people making their money. The average Russian would simply live better. And we would be making twice the number of Gorshkov frigates per year at the same time.

    TR1
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:43 am

    mack8 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    TR1 wrote:CIA must have infiltrated the Russian gov as well, that might explain why they are so shitty for the Russian people.

    This might be collectively the greatest thread I have ever read. The amount of conspiracy/wackjob theories is astounding.
    IDK man, shitty for Russian people You say? There are plenty of Russians who have more "bablo" than us, stupid hard working euros will ever have.

    And you just exposed the brutal truth of Russia- a giant wealth gap between all those Russians who got rich over the past 20 years (and they are damn well off) and the rest of the country, which is certainly NOT doing better than the majority of the EU.

    By some rankings Russia has the worst wealth inequality in the world. Sounds about right.

    Which is why the oligarchs are the biggest danger to Russia and it's independence and it's EXISTENCE. You can bet the vast majority will sell their mothers (let alone their country) for a few more millions added to their accounts. I bet that most of the russian oligarchs have extensive connections ABROAD and make a lot of money there, rather than in Russia. Again, that Ivanov guy is spot on when he says these bastards are the prime CIA target to buy. Imo, Russia should dedicate a gulag in Siberia to these bastards, i was looking on a list and there are HUNDREDS of them with more than 1 billion apiece.These are the fifth column.

    And the ones that exist have an understanding with Putin. One and the other cannot be seperated.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:44 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    TR1 wrote:CIA must have infiltrated the Russian gov as well, that might explain why they are so shitty for the Russian people.

    This might be collectively the greatest thread I have ever read. The amount of conspiracy/wackjob theories is astounding.

    Say's the guy who claimed that everyone who disagreed with you were paid agents of Vladimir Putin, classic moral superiority from you...lol1 

    I was making fun of Morpheus who accused Flaming of all people of being paid.

    Werewolf
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:12 am

    TR1 wrote:Baha, I LOVE the use of the word Junta. It makes me giggle every time I see it. Especially when I hear on the sorry-excuse for Russian TV news every other minute. These guys make MSNBC look professional.

    BTW please tell me how CIA was inside Kremlin.


    Wow, you are the one screamin around that you are the only guy who knows about russias political system and everyone else here never was in russia and has no plan about it, but you have no damn clue about CIA involvement under Jelzin era in russia?


    Under Jelzin 1991 he and his jewish oligarch families like Khordokovsky,Abrahamovich,Saxarov,Prokhorov, Berezovksy and others have made deals with BP,Shell and other companies the very well known Production Sharing Aggreement (PSA) this, PSA treaty is also known as Colonial Status Aggreement that is given to 3rd world countries like in africa so they can dig up precious metals, gems and other resources but do not gain a single penny for the work and only US and EU companies get money for african work.

    Specific laws where written by US lawmakers under directive of CIA, laws that would render russias profit from the gained and oil production to zero, actually russians had to pay to americans for russian oil that we produced, russians had to pay for the food and housing of drilling personals on russian oil rigs to american and british governments and companies.

    Untill 2004 russia did not make single Dollar from the millions of barrels they have produced in the Jelzin ERA, untill Putin under lot of pressure from oligarchs achieved to destroy the PSA treaty and only in late 2004 year russia started to get money for its own oil.




    The CIA is till this date instructing the 5th column (Opposition) like Nemzov, Nawalny, Rosa and other Jewish oligarch scum that are going in and out as russian political party members in the US embassy proven here on footage.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:20 am

    Back to the topic guys. I see pages after pages of off-topic here.

    Vann7
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:28 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Back to the topic guys. I see pages after pages of off-topic here.






    Firebird
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Firebird on Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:31 am

    TR1 wrote:

    We are in diiiire straights if we are comparing ourselves to Africa.

    In regards to the US- how many of those millionaires earned their money compared to those in Russia? How many innovative, worldwide companies emerge from the US, and how many from Russia? Where are the Russian elite getting their income from?
    It is certainly true in the US the trend over the past 20-30 years has been more wealth concentration at the top, but lets not compare it to Russia.
    An average Russian citizen is far worse off in terms of economic standing and opportunity. Small Russian cities and villages are holes. Absolute holes.
    Hell even the big ones look like dumps in many places. Yes yes, there is Detroit, but let's be honest here. It is not a comparison that favors Russia.
    Moscow at one point had the most millionaires in the world. Do you know what the average income was? What sort of living situation the average person found themselves compared to the elites?

    Look, I've lived in both countries. It pains me to say, but its overall just a better life in the US today, no comparison.

    If corruption was gutted, rule of law enabled, and all those overnight millionaires were fined/jailed......then I would not say a word about rich people making their money. The average Russian would simply live better. And we would be making twice the number of Gorshkov frigates per year at the same time.

    I've gotta say, I'm completely baffled by your anti-Russia stance on some things.

    Anyway, on the topic of US v Russia, I was considering moving to the states a while back (ok a LONG while back, before twats like Bush came on the scene). Back then, it was WAY ahead of anywhere else. Now the situation is very different as I see it.

    Anyway comparing Russia to the US:-

    1)Russia
    good
    cheap food, accomodation, education, healthcare, no floods of immigrants, crime not that bad in most places these days. employment prospects improving in tech sectors and generally.
    lots of holidays, hours not too long. Low taxes.
    fuel costs very cheap.

    not so good.
    accomodation quite/even extremely basic still for many. wages not as high as the US for mid and upper middle class people. oligarchy and corruption in local govt/judiciary etc. harsh weather in some areas. some unemployment.

    2)America
    good
    wages in gross terms are very high for middle and upper middle class people. Wages poor for working class people. accomodation very good, as are infrastructures. education is ok if state. healthcare is so so. legal system good if u can afford it. massive wealth in some areas.

    not so good.
    crippling heathcare costs for many. terrible wages for the poorer. much unemployment.
    corruption- in areas like healthcare, government, gm crops forced upon people.
    harsh and killer weather in some areas.
    very poor economic outlook for the young and graduates etc.
    crippling cost of getting a degree, even if US degrees are often prestigious.
    little holidays, very long hours. Brutal tendency to downsize jobs and export jobs overseas.
    horrible poverty in some areas, esp non white areas.
    High taxes and horrific social insurance costs.
    And people seem to forget how much of America is trailer parks and dirt track roads. Its not all beachfront mansions and Manhattan loft apartments. (Yet another distortion from US tv shows!)
    A "multi cultural" nightmare for many.

    I'm astonished at how America has changed.  Over 15 yrs its gone from absolutely wonderful for young graduates etc, to absolutely terrible. I mean I've heard of people who have an illness and hope theyll need surgery, because its the only way their insurance will cover it!!

    Russia is improving, and can/will/should develop much more. America will always have a wealthy, but its middle class is shrinking. RUssia's middle class is now starting to emerge.

    For people 40s to 70, I think America has the better living standards. But for many young Americans, life is starting to look like a total catastrophy. And the GDP figures give  a massive distortion of it all.

    So overall, it will be interesting to see how things develop over the coming decade.
    I think for most younger people atleast, Russia has much better prospcts. Few people get the plum jobs at JPMorgan and Google in the US. I think people often forget that.

    Vann7
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:44 am

    It is in the interest of everyone. At least it should be.  

    You do realize what are the real intentions of US in Ukraine? You really think they paid $5 billions dollars to organize
    a revolution for nothing back?  That it was because they love democracy and human rights?  IF you were told that a world war 3 will happen and many thousands if not millions people killed,unless the Kiev government is overthrown would you have the same opinion.. that is "in the interest of anyone if the rebels just accept defeat".  What happens in Ukraine is a global conflict . And entire nation have been taken by the west and radicals helped to get in power with the intention to use them to Fight Russia. and only removing from power the Nazis in kiev will be in the interest of the world.  The kiev junta is already speaking of getting nuclear weapons.. You really think things will get better if Kiev wins and fully take control of Ukraine? and NATO allowed to get what they want?  Let me tell you NATO will not mind to sacrifice millions of Ukrainians lives if with that they can destroy Russia. I don't think you are aware of how sick and inhuman are the leaders that controls the organization called NATO.  They had discussions /Plans of reducing world DE-population by 90%. I dont think your young mind can fully understand how perverse are that people ,who controls US and NATO policy. It will make Hitler ,Stalin and Ghenkis combined to look like saints.

    Look at this short video clip..what a retired US army 4 star general told in 2007.  6 years ago. ^^


    Another shot video clip ,talk about US elite De-population program had in plan.


    While nothing is set in stone in foreign policy and things can be modified or tweaked. Part of the plans of the US Elite (aside of total isolation of their economy) is a nuclear war with RUssia for the simple reason that they stand in the way of their global hegemony ,but not with them firing the weapons and instead giving the weapons to a third country and that they use it against Russia. But naturally no sane politician or Government in NATO will do that ..that is attack Russia with nuclear weapons.Knowing they can be wiped too. This is were Ultra Radical nazis  comes into play.  I don't think the plan will work.. but that doesn't mean they will not try.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:45 am; edited 7 times in total

    sepheronx
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:49 am

    TR1 wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    TR1 wrote:CIA must have infiltrated the Russian gov as well, that might explain why they are so shitty for the Russian people.

    This might be collectively the greatest thread I have ever read. The amount of conspiracy/wackjob theories is astounding.
    IDK man, shitty for Russian people You say? There are plenty of Russians who have more "bablo" than us, stupid hard working euros will ever have.

    And you just exposed the brutal truth of Russia- a giant wealth gap between all those Russians who got rich over the past 20 years (and they are damn well off) and the rest of the country, which is certainly NOT doing better than the majority of the EU.

    By some rankings Russia has the worst wealth inequality in the world. Sounds about right.

    TR1, the wealth gap is not limited to Russia, it is everywhere on this planet ...and it is getting worse each time I check it.
    The same argument can be used (and is being used) against the USA and the West and Africa etc.

    We are in diiiire straights if we are comparing ourselves to Africa.

    In regards to the US- how many of those millionaires earned their money compared to those in Russia? How many innovative, worldwide companies emerge from the US, and how many from Russia? Where are the Russian elite getting their income from?
    It is certainly true in the US the trend over the past 20-30 years has been more wealth concentration at the top, but lets not compare it to Russia.
    An average Russian citizen is far worse off in terms of economic standing and opportunity. Small Russian cities and villages are holes. Absolute holes.
    Hell even the big ones look like dumps in many places. Yes yes, there is Detroit, but let's be honest here. It is not a comparison that favors Russia.
    Moscow at one point had the most millionaires in the world. Do you know what the average income was? What sort of living situation the average person found themselves compared to the elites?

    Look, I've lived in both countries. It pains me to say, but its overall just a better life in the US today, no comparison.

    If corruption was gutted, rule of law enabled, and all those overnight millionaires were fined/jailed......then I would not say a word about rich people making their money. The average Russian would simply live better. And we would be making twice the number of Gorshkov frigates per year at the same time.

    About 10%. I was watching a TED talks regarding wealth and they figure out of the wealthy, 10% actually made it for themselves while the rest are born into it.

    But I agree, for all the multibillion corps in Russia, they really need to be paying their employees more.  Innovation is in question because it is the wheel being reinvented over and over again. Electric car? Existed in the 70's. Touch screen? Invented in 80's for military, modern smartphones? Byproduct of handheld computers of the late 90's.

    Not really innovative but their universities are. Same with Russian. But the contrast is how many of the companies in US bank on the university tech and how many in Russia? Russian companies are afraid of change as they are used to making easy money.

    So I agree with TR1. Oligarches should be giving a lot back to their workers by paying them competitive wages.

    http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/insights/news/2013/a-rising-middle-class-will-fuel-growth-in-russia.html

    As you can see the figures from last year, it is not the middle class that is really suffering, but it is the lower class in Russia that suffers due to piss poor wages.

    The thing is, it really helps when medical care is taken care of by the government. This is the #1 issue in USA and about 80% of defaults on debt is due to medical bills.

    But here is the other thing. How many Russian's own their own home? I mean, own it where they do not have to pay the bank? I have read that the major issue for banks and handing out loans being scarce, is because not enough people in Russia are purchasing property that the banks own, thus the banks do not have the equity that the west does. Out here in the west, cost of goods are very high, and housing is astronomical. My house cost me over $400,000, and it isn't a very big home, in a city of only 1.3m people that is greatly spread out (with plenty more land around). We are in debt to the house, and most mortgages are set at 25 years and more. They are contemplating on making it like in Japan, where it is upwards to 90 years. But just contemplating. The reason why we get paid as much as we do, is because of the much higher costs in living, and companies have no choice. In the end, many companies are leaving us to work in these other countries, as doing business is cheaper and companies make more from the cheaper labor. Already, there is fear at my workplace of being replaced by India's tech workers to work remotely. Only companies one can work for to make big money besides banks, are oil and gas which is the main drive out in Alberta, and this province supports quite the amount of other provinces. We have provinces like Newfoundland and Manitoba that there are people so poor, that they cannot afford heat or electricity in their homes. How do I know this? Cause I was born in Winnipeg Manitoba, and one of my family members are living through that. They will never own a home. They rent. Can barely afford it and can barely afford to buy decent food.

    There is a push for skilled workers from Russia because majority of Russian's are educated, something like over 90%. Here in Canada as an example, cost to go to school is so high, that many people can barely afford it unless they get a loan. When I went to school, I took an EMT course which cost me little to take, but I would have to volunteer for 1 year (no pay). Cannot afford that as I have a daughter. To go to school for basic IT, it cost 18K for a half year course. If I went with a full course and went further, it would end up costing me more than $40K. How much do you have to pay to get into Russian universities? But that is the thing, now we take in a lot of Russian workers and pay them well because they get all the benefits right here and now, and many canadians are facing the issue of not having work. Eventually, these Russians will end up going back home (like many I have met) because they made their money, they already own property back home so they don't have a mortgage, and now they have significantly more money.

    Hell, I hear of more Russian's going on Vacations (from Russia) than here. Most people cannot go on vacations here without having to blow their savings and or going into debt. My sister is in heavy debt just to go to Egypt (and then the riots hit after she re-entered Cairo. so I blame her for the Egypt mess Razz).

    Benefit? Things are safe here. Crime is quite low, and people can be pretty friendly. And there are a lot of social programs to help people who are down. This in contrast though, does not exist in USA. If you are poor, you're poor. No medical treatment for you or nothing. You can make good money. But rarely one does. Educated in USA is very low compared to most.

    So of course, the grass is not greener on the other side. In EU though, it could be a different case. Don't know. But this is my perspective for here in North America.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:14 am; edited 1 time in total

    Werewolf
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:02 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    So I agree with TR1. Oligarches should be giving a lot back to their workers by paying them competitive wages.

    And that is impossible. Oligarchs are not oligarchs because they actually pay those who work and do all the productive work to earn the money, they are just used and abused that is everywhere the case. The only difference between Russia and West is that here they are called CEO's and not Oligarchs. You just need to dig a little big about companies there are so many oligarchs with their Lobbyist puppeteers, especially here in Germany among BMW,Mercedes,VW,Audio and Porsche. They have lobbyists in political parties that have already several times changed laws and created loopholes so they don't pay taxes and yes thare are oligarchs.


    The problem is 20 years back one family member mostly the father had one single job a hard job but he earned enough money so he could accomodate for the family a flat or even house, several kids and the wive could stay at home and did not NEED to take job so just one single family can pay all bills, today the average is that you necessarily need two working parents otherwise you will have here and there debts and even today among two working parents there still huge amount of families who have debts.

    So, the wages here in the west are not even matching up with the living costs.

    TheArmenian
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:04 am

    TR1 wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    TR1 wrote:CIA must have infiltrated the Russian gov as well, that might explain why they are so shitty for the Russian people.

    This might be collectively the greatest thread I have ever read. The amount of conspiracy/wackjob theories is astounding.
    IDK man, shitty for Russian people You say? There are plenty of Russians who have more "bablo" than us, stupid hard working euros will ever have.

    And you just exposed the brutal truth of Russia- a giant wealth gap between all those Russians who got rich over the past 20 years (and they are damn well off) and the rest of the country, which is certainly NOT doing better than the majority of the EU.

    By some rankings Russia has the worst wealth inequality in the world. Sounds about right.

    TR1, the wealth gap is not limited to Russia, it is everywhere on this planet ...and it is getting worse each time I check it.
    The same argument can be used (and is being used) against the USA and the West and Africa etc.

    We are in diiiire straights if we are comparing ourselves to Africa.

    In regards to the US- how many of those millionaires earned their money compared to those in Russia? How many innovative, worldwide companies emerge from the US, and how many from Russia? Where are the Russian elite getting their income from?
    It is certainly true in the US the trend over the past 20-30 years has been more wealth concentration at the top, but lets not compare it to Russia.
    An average Russian citizen is far worse off in terms of economic standing and opportunity. Small Russian cities and villages are holes. Absolute holes.
    Hell even the big ones look like dumps in many places. Yes yes, there is Detroit, but let's be honest here. It is not a comparison that favors Russia.
    Moscow at one point had the most millionaires in the world. Do you know what the average income was? What sort of living situation the average person found themselves compared to the elites?

    Look, I've lived in both countries. It pains me to say, but its overall just a better life in the US today, no comparison.

    If corruption was gutted, rule of law enabled, and all those overnight millionaires were fined/jailed......then I would not say a word about rich people making their money. The average Russian would simply live better. And we would be making twice the number of Gorshkov frigates per year at the same time.


    Here is the diagnosis for your problem my dear friend from North Caucasus:
    You are too impatient. You want Russia to change drastically for the better....overnight.

    Today's Russia became a country only 23 years ago when the SU disintegrated... And you want to compare it to the USA which over 5 centuries has been through genocide of first nations, independence wars, slavery, civil wars etc etc. and they are still faaaar from perfect. Same applies to West Europe which also has seen inquisitions, religious wars, 100 year wars, colonializations etc etc.

    There is a saying: Rome was not built in one day. Yet, you want all the good things to happen in Russia with the flip of a finger. It does not matter whether it is Yeltsin, Putin, Stalin or TR1in, it will take time. Within our lifetimes we are seeing Gorshkovs, Yasens and PAK-FAs. We will see more and faster, but it will take time.
    Stop blaming the governement, the oligarchs, the mafias, the corruption, the weather, the people, the geography, the beer etc etc. These are called growing pains. Stop being emotional like a typical Caucasian (myself included) take a deep breath and see if you can help (rather than blame, complain and bitch).

    BTW we are off topic and we should go back to it.

    sepheronx
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:56 am

    Five western leaders favour new sanctions against Russia
    PARIS, July 28 /ITAR-TASS/. The French, US, British, German and Italian leaders are in favour of new sanctions against Russia, the press service of the French president said on Monday.

    EU jeopardizes security cooperation by its anti-Russian sanctions - Moscow
    Its statement came after French President Francois Hollande’s telephone conversations on Monday with US President Barack Obama, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and the prime ministers of Great Britain and Italy, David Cameron and Matteo Renzi.
    As combat operations continue in the east of Ukraine, they “have once again emphasized the importance of search for a political way out of the present crisis,” the document said. They accused Russia of failing to put efficient pressure on militia to “compel them to negotiations”, as well as of “failing to take expected from it concrete measures to ensure control on the Russian-Ukrainian border”.
    Hollande, Obama, Merkel, Cameron and Renzi “confirmed they will keep a wary eye on any direct military assistance Russia could offer” to militia in eastern Ukraine.
    They also said they wanted the Russian leadership “to assume the stance of true cooperation in the settlement of the Ukrainian crisis,” the statement said, adding that the five leaders had expressed their readiness to continue contacts with Moscow.

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, for his part, said that while insisting on transparency around Ukraine, demanding from Russia to change its policy in that respect, the West itself did was not seeking openness.
    “I have heard no political initiatives from western partners, they say ‘Russia must change its policy, and there will be sanctions until it changes it’,” Lavrov told a news briefing on Monday. “I don’t know what they imply by ‘changes’,” he added.
    “We supported the OSCE road map, offered different forms of observers’ presence at border crossing points,” he said. “There is one explanation to why it took so long to solve such a simple issue - West’s efforts to stall the process, I don’t know why,” he said.

    Lavrov is right. All we have heard, even in our news, is our politicians stating for Russia to change its position on this. When asked for evidence of Russian support, the governments of the west did not respond and just continued to state the same thing, for Russia to change its stance. But what about our stance? Why are we not condemning the Ukrainian military for its piss poor operations and heavy shelling of civilians in Eastern Ukraine? Were is the evidence that they keep claiming they have? They tried to show evidence right off the bat about Russian artillery, even if it was wrong, but nothing about the plane crash or supporting the seps. Innocent till proven guilty.

    It seems the western leaders are gonna lose a lot of face. Seems the comment sections on various Canadian news sites have decided to disable comment section (on CBC specifically on certain articles talking about the issue) because they do not want to hear what people have to say about dear leader Harper.

    They know they are losing face, and losing its position on Ukraine matter. At this point, Russia should increase prices of gas transit to Europe, to accommodate loss from investments/business as well as put pressure on EU to pay off Ukraine debt to Russia. Or call off the facade of the $50B court order from the so called Hague and return to normal business, while let Ukraine sort itself out. But they wont go for this. So at this point, Russia should squeeze EU's wallet regarding Gas. If EU was so called independent like the MP.Net members like to say they are, then they would have no problem closing the gas route. But so far, they seem to refrain from doing that. So there is obviously fear from EU regarding that.

    sepheronx
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:01 am

    Ukraine Army Takes Bloomberg Reporter Hostage: Fascinating Report Ensues
    Thanks to a 5-word text message to his father, a Bloomberg reporter was taken hostage by Ukrainian soldiers at a checkpoint near Donetsk. What ensued is both frightening and fascinating...



    Authored by Stepan Kravchenko in Ivanovskoe, Russia (skravchenko@bloomberg.net),

    In eastern Ukraine, one text message can turn you into an enemy. In my case, it was sent to my father. “Talked to Borodai at night,” it said about an interview I had with a rebel leader.

    “So, you are Borodai’s little friend,” concluded the camouflaged man reading my Nokia. His comrade pointed a Kalashnikov at my stomach. “We’ve got a Russian warrior here saying he is a journalist,” he called to someone in Russian.
    It was July 25, 3 p.m. I was heading home to Russia from Donetsk when a routine inspection at a Ukrainian army checkpoint near Starobesheve village went bad. They saw my Russian passport and press card, and told me to get out and hand over my belongings. I tried to hide my BlackBerry. Then they found videos of separatists’ press conferences on my iPad. My guilt, whatever it was, was proven.

    I managed to whisper a Moscow contact to my driver before being blindfolded and walked five steps to a waiting Hyundai SUV I’d seen approaching with masked men inside.

    “You’d better shut up and think about keeping your pants dry,” one of the masked men -- I counted three voices -- said as we were driving to an unknown location something like 40 minutes away, off a bumpy rural road.

    It reminded me, a 31-year-old Muscovite, of the many experiences I had with Russian police as a teenager. I was waiting for good cop-bad cop questioning, moderate use of force and a meticulous scan of my memories from rebel-controlled Donetsk.

    I thought I’d still make my flight at 9:15 p.m. As I got to learn my captors better, I began to think I might be held for days, if only because chaos on the ground would keep me from being found.

    Oligarch’s Officers

    The three captors -- Pavel, Ruslan and Dmitry, as I learned later -- were military intelligence officers from the Dnepr battalion, sponsored by Dnipropetrovsk governor and billionaire Igor Kolomoisky. In this war, oligarchs train, equip and fund detachments, which are then under the control of the Ukranian army.

    Dubbed “Kolomoisky castigators” and “fascists” by Russian media, my captors turned out to be the same kind of people I met when talking to separatists: bored Russian-speakers, the blood and muscle of a conflict where random hatred reigns on both sides.

    “So, what do the rebels say?” was the first question after I was taken out of the car.

    “What do you mean?” I asked.

    “Well, what do they say, in general?” a gunman elaborated.
    Punched Twice

    I was still blindfolded, sitting on the grass in a place that sounded like a military camp. Soldiers were gathering around, joking and cursing at me. “You, Russians, are all pigs,” one said. “I’d love to shoot you down.”

    This made me recall a salty Russian joke about World War II. I chuckled. He punched me twice in the head. It didn’t hurt much. I thought that was a good sign.

    The questioning didn’t go as I expected. My captors were not asking about rebel positions, separatist leadership security or anything that military intelligence ought to be interested in.
    They desperately expressed their own views, shutting me up when I argued. They asked me questions I couldn’t answer. How many Russians support the rebels? Why do they kill children? Why did the people on the Malaysian Airlines flight have to die? What does Vladimir Putin want? Do we really look like fascists?

    It lasted for an hour or more. I was happy when they settled me back in the car. The driver explained that we were heading out to destroy a separatist truck-mounted Grad rocket launcher in a village nearby.

    Grain Harvester

    “You will now see how the Ukrainian army fights,” he said, and hit the throttle. The car bumped into a barrier, losing a fender guard, as I heard from their talks.

    They stopped at another roadblock to get more weapons. We moved further in silence on a bumpy road. I started to fall asleep, wondering what message I would send to Polina and my son if I managed to get the phone back. A cursing voice woke me up.

    The “Grad” turned out to be a grain harvester. The gunmen appeared to be relieved. They took my blindfold off and I saw a field of rye.

    “Look how beautiful it is,” said Ruslan, a tall red-haired man in his 30s sitting next to me. He turned out to have a habit of pointing out picturesque landscapes. The three of them wore new combat vests and tactical sunglasses.

    Small-Business Men

    “You should be happy we got you and not the guys from the 39th unit,” Dmitry, the driver and the commander of the group, told me. “They are always drunk, so they would probably beat you to death first and then think.”

    Dmitry, Ruslan and Pavel were small-business men before the conflict, they told me. Their companies had monthly sales of around 300,000 Hryvnia ($25,000) each. They used to travel together to Oktoberfest in Germany and organized weekend parties in country vacation houses. Dmitry turned out to be an expert in wind generators and dissuaded me from buying one for my dacha.
    The three of them hated everything other than nature. They hated the Euromaidan protests for igniting the unrest, hated Americans and Europeans for supporting it, hated ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich and, of course, hated Putin, journalists and Russians.

    “Russians and Ukrainians are not brothers anymore ’til Putin dies,” Pavel, who looked older than his friends, said, as he played a disc of Russian rock pioneer Viktor Tsoi in the Hyundai.
    They asked me if I had Ukrainian roots. I had to disappoint them.

    Rye Fields

    We were heading to Mariupol, a city to the south of Donetsk, where authorities moved when the rebels occupied the capital. Pavel was advising me how to behave during questioning by their “much tougher” colleagues at the base, Dmitry was having a phone conversation about rebels’ salaries and Ruslan was staring at another field.

    “Did you know there are giant rye fields between Ukraine and Russia, fields that go across the border, where nothing indicates what country they belong to?” he asked pensively.
    “I know a village where a house is on our side and its toilet is on the Russian side,” Pavel said.

    It was growing dark when they blindfolded me again.

    The base was at the airport, as I understood from their talks. “Password? Four. Password? Six,” they said at the entrance, stopped the car and left me alone. Other men took me out of the car and ordered me to put my hands on the wall.

    ‘Truth Room’

    The pointless questioning repeated. “Do you know who Putin is?” a voice asked. “The president of Russia,” I said. “Incorrect. He is khuilo. Let me teach you a song,” he said about a soccer chant popular in Ukraine in which Putin is called that term, which translates to an unprintable reference to male anatomy.

    “Bloomberg News? Are you sure? Maybe Life News,” another voice asked, referring to a Russian media outlet controlled by Putin allies. They told me they don’t care that I work for an international media and not for a Russian one.

    “We got a truth room for s--- like you,” somebody said. Then they all left, leaving a guard who kicked me in the leg when I made attempts to kill mosquitos.

    I had no way of knowing at the time, but my driver had managed to get through the message to my father to call Bloomberg’s Moscow bureau, setting off frantic activity from there to New York.

    My colleagues in Kiev reached out to every contact they had, calling the army, the defense ministry, the security services, the president’s office. They scurried to find copies of my passports and assemble a portfolio of my recent work to prove who I was. Eventually, they found the right person.

    Right Connection

    In an hour, a new man approached. They called him colonel. He had a soft voice and a small palm. “I am an ethnic Russian,” was the introduction. “Looks like you were telling the truth and I have only one question left before you go. What do you think about all of this happening here?”

    I answered with a bad Russian word. He agreed.

    My three captors returned and drove me out from the base. “He said we should ask you to excuse us,” Ruslan said, taking my blindfold off.

    “Here, take these. It’s Ukrainian-made s--- anyway,” Pavel said as he gave me his sunglasses. Ruslan showed pictures of corpses that he said belonged to Chechen mercenaries he’d killed in Ukraine. Dmitry said I can always join their raids when I come back.

    Hanging Out

    My captors took me to Novoazovsk, a border checkpoint I was planning to pass seven hours earlier. Ruslan took a call from his father.

    “All fine, Dad.”

    “No, doing nothing. Just met some friends and we plan to hang out a bit.”

    They ordered the border guards to let me go through. They left their e-mail addresses, should I wish to keep in touch.

    At the Russian side, the Federal Security Service questioned me for an hour. I told my story in brief and a young officer asked if they could inspect my belongings. He was surprised when I refused.

    I left the checkpoint and saw a field of rye. It was too dark to see if it stretched across the border.

    * * *
    Sounds like we need John Kerry in there to sort all this out... and explain how they can all be friends.

    Vann7
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:11 am



    Is now the time for Good news on the Novorosiyan front.  Smile 



    Short clarification about the situation in Novorussia Dear friends..


    You probably all have heard that the Ukies are advancing on all fronts and even that they have taken Saur Mogila. I have carefully scanned all my news sources from the conflict area and this information is false. What really happened is, indeed, the Ukies did launch massive attacks, one reportedly with 200 or so tanks. Battles have taken place in Gorlovka, the outskirts of Donestk and Lugansk, a particularly strong assault was given to Saur Mogila which had to be reinforced from Donetsk. There were many casualties on both sides but the key fact is this: all the attacks have failed and the Ukies have been pushed back. There was also a rumor about Novorussian forces evacuating from Donetsk. This is plain false. A *hospital* with wounded soldiers was evacuated from Donetsk to Russia and a large number of Novorussian forces have also been sent from Donetsk to Saur Mogila. But this is most definitely not an evacuation of Donetsk. The battle situation is still very heavy everywhere and it is too early to either rejoice or panic. All we can say is that so far the Novorussian forces are holding and that at Saur Mogila the Ukies had to retreat. I hope that Gleb or Juan will be able to provide more details soon. Kind regards, The Saker

    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.se/2014/07/short-clarification-about-situation-in.html




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    http://www.russiadefence.net/viewtopic.forum?t=3298

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