Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    sepheronx
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7091
    Points : 7359
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 30
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:22 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:You guys have answers to everything  Laughing 

    Not answers, but speculations.  Clear difference.  We are speculation just as much as the Russophobe nations are speculating too.  Funny thing is, we are the ones asking everyone to stay calm and wait till the official investigation shows something, while the Russophobics are jumping up and down calling for blood.  So who are the aggressors?

    As well, it does not seem that Putin is using the shooting down of the airline for any political advantage unlike some people in Australia or US....

    BTW, if you know anymore than us, please tell us in the photos the buks taken, being moved or whatever, which area it is, which street and provide an alternative shot of the area before and after the move or some sort of evidence to show the location is indeed correct from what is being claimed as border areas. Because many shots before used to prove a Su-24 was shot down or place destroyed or whatever, where images of Syria and there were many who believed it, even if it was wrong.
    Flyingdutchman
    Flyingdutchman

    Posts : 535
    Points : 551
    Join date : 2013-07-30
    Location : The Netherlands

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:26 pm

    I DONT KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE IT IS FRUSTRATING
    sepheronx
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7091
    Points : 7359
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 30
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:32 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:I DONT KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE IT IS FRUSTRATING

    Why?

    Mistakes happen. Even if it was not a mistake, it still happened. At this point in time, no one knows, and ultimately, nothing will be done of it. So what if Russia did do it when assisting the seps (I highly doubt it as they have multitudes of different radar facing that area and they can easily calculate speed and hight it is traveling, so they would have done it on purpose if they did shoot it down)? Sanctions? Not much more sanctions can be in place other than total ban of products between both sides, and that will hurt EU too. And they know it. Attack Russia? I highly doubt you will find anyone willing to do so over 300 dead people. Many more died by US hands in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq, and no one did a damn thing. Make them pay financial assistance to the deads family? That is what I agree with. If they are found guilty, they should appologise, and compensate them.

    If the seps did it? Highly doubt anything will be done other than further assistance from US and EU to Ukr forces. They won't send troops in to deal with seps because if they did, they will probably face a much larger force of angry citizens seeing this as an invasion. As well, many US troops will end up killed in the fighting which will be a downer back at home. Make them pay financially? Doubt they have the money to compensate anyone.

    If the Ukrainian forces did it? Well, chances are, the international community west of them will ignore it and still chalk it up to being Russia's fault because of the war, and it was an accident on Ukraines military end. Because they will not bad mouth their puppet. They did not bad mouth him when his military has killed dozens of innocent civilians and children in the cities that the Ukr forces are bombing.
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3735
    Points : 3819
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  medo on Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:06 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Wow those are some hard proofs  Shocked 

    So maybe there is propaganda in the west, what no one believes, This forum made me thinking alot...

    And what when it comes out it were the ukrainians?

    How will the world respond?

    And uuuuhhhh.... Didn't the us do exactly the same with an iranian airplane??

    I doubt this will come out in western medias and I think those things will be ignored for political reasons. I bet that officially it will be shot down by rebel's Buk and Putin will be responsible, what mean more sanctions against Russia and Russia will have to pay to relatives of passengers. Those things will never be in reports.
    avatar
    calripson

    Posts : 235
    Points : 262
    Join date : 2013-10-26

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Western Press

    Post  calripson on Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:37 pm

    The day after a Soviet interceptor plane blew up a Korean passenger jet, the first sentence of a New York Times editorial (9/2/83) was unequivocal: "There is no conceivable excuse for any nation shooting down a harmless airliner." Headlined "Murder in the Air," the editorial asserted that "no circumstance whatever justifies attacking an innocent plane."

    Confronted with the sudden reality of a similar action by the U.S. government, the New York Times inverted every standard invoked with righteous indignation five years earlier. Editorials condemning the KAL shoot down were filled with phrases like "wanton killing," "reckless aerial murder" and "no conceivable excuse." But when Iran Air's flight 655 was blown out of the sky on July 3, excuses were more than conceivable--they were profuse.

    Two days after the Iranian passenger jet went down in flames, killing 290 people, the Times (7/5/88) editorialized that "while horrifying, it was nonetheless an accident." The editorial concluded, "The onus for avoiding such accidents in the future rests on civilian aircraft: avoid combat zones, fly high, acknowledge warnings."
    avatar
    calripson

    Posts : 235
    Points : 262
    Join date : 2013-10-26

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty USS Vincennes

    Post  calripson on Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:41 pm

    The Captain of the USS Vincennes that shot down an Iranian civil airliner killing 290 was awarded a Medal of Valor two years later by President Bush.
    avatar
    Firebird

    Posts : 1028
    Points : 1054
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Firebird on Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:22 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:You guys have answers to everything  Laughing 

    Not answers, but speculations.  Clear difference.  We are speculation just as much as the Russophobe nations are speculating too.  Funny thing is, we are the ones asking everyone to stay calm and wait till the official investigation shows something, while the Russophobics are jumping up and down calling for blood.  So who are the aggressors?

    As well, it does not seem that Putin is using the shooting down of the airline for any political advantage unlike some people in Australia or US....

    BTW, if you know anymore than us, please tell us in the photos the buks taken, being moved or whatever, which area it is, which street and provide an alternative shot of the area before and after the move or some sort of evidence to show the location is indeed correct from what is being claimed as border areas.  Because many shots before used to prove a Su-24 was shot down or place destroyed or whatever, where images of Syria and there were many who believed it, even if it was wrong.

    Suppose my friends and family in the Ukraine or anywhere else were having their homes blown up by Nazis. And there was a jet in the sky over the war crime zone. And I had a SAM system handy, I'd try and blow the plane out of the sky every single fucking time. Except dim people can't follow that.

    And just supposing they hadn't, Obama and Willy Wanker might as well have pulled the trigger themselves.

    Either way, THEY'RE the ones responsible for it all.
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4445
    Points : 4549
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:11 am

    Flyingdutchman wrote:I DONT KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE IT IS FRUSTRATING

    This is very simple.. Just look at the Alex Jones show video posted before..  yes he is real information ,ignore claims
    he is infiltrated.. he passed the 9/11 test and the Syria test and the ISIS-CIA test..and ukraine test.. he is genuine albeit a little timid against zionist jews ,Still he blame the banksters who controls America and new world order that is the same thing.. and a bit too emotional,but still he is 100% genuine ,says what he think and believe.

    here is Alex summary ,was posted a few pages back however..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY4W-8qNnD0



    Imagine there is a civil war in nation after a coup ,and the new government rules like a lawless third world nation state,that orders the killing of any civilian who protest. The civil war happens because Police indiscriminately have been killing them. And you are a tourist and choose to save money and travel to your destination by crossing in car the nation ,that this civil war is happening. Then you arrive to that nation using a car similar to the one police use and ask police in that country for the safest and fastest route to cross the nation . Then police instead of giving you a safe route ,give you the most dangerous route possible directly over the warzone . and you end killed.. then police say to the world media.. "See? they are terrorist.. they even killed a tourist"

    So the question here is who is responsible for the murder of the tourist? the Police or the civilians who got guns for self defense? in all this there is no evidence of who killed the tourist.. just that the tourist was exposed by a big danger and died.

    The malasyan plane flew 10 times before away of the warzone in previous days.. but the day it was shot down.. was order to change route and fly directly in the middle of the war zone.  Independence forces,they have they duty to defend their lives and protect their cities that are bombed indiscriminately by Ukraine Airforce. If any plane is shot down by them ,that ends being civilian is not because they intentionally wanted it ..but that the plane was sent there by Ukraine government To Frame the Rebels..  and get it shot down.  There is many unconfirmed evidence that reveals the Ukraine airforce did it.. not the Rebels. but even in the case Rebels did it.. they cannot be held accounted for a crime.. they were fighting the Ukranian airforce.. as simple as that. and Ukraine government is fully responsible to guide commercial airlines through a safe route.. not the most dangerous one.  The Malasyan Government is also in part responsible for not banning the fly of their civilians planes over Ukraine..and other airliners did.

    What killed the 300 passengers?  
    1) The combination of Malasyan Government wanting to save money in fuel by ordering their planes to fly over the shortest path at the risk of security . they should have banned flights over ukraine and period. (The american aviation did it)
    2)The kiev junta use 300 civilians lives in a malasyan plane ,to frame the rebels ,in order to gain political support in their criminal war.

    Who really fired the missile is just details ,not really necessary to point fingers at the authors of the crime.. it was a classic example of a false flag event.. where a government plan the killing of civilians ,to use the tragedy as a political tool ,for the justification of their war. This is similar to a CIA false flag planned event.. (that kennedy does NOT approved and fired from his job who gave him the idea) Operation Northwoods , where they planned to install a bomb in an american civilian airline and send the plane to Cuba ,and later explode the plane in air and blame Cuba for shooting it down. Which will have allowed USA to invade Cuba and remove castro.
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4445
    Points : 4549
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:37 am

    medo wrote:


    https://servimg.com/view/15838358/126

    It's difficult to say, but some claim that those damages on airliner were done by air to air missile, not Buk. If this will be proven for truth, than we know, who is behind this false flag attack.

    The double parallel lines are crazy..  Shocked 
    looks like projectiles not only hit parallel to the plane wing but also more than one projectile was fired not at the same timing. Unless im mistaken.. a bomb or missile.. when it explode the damage goes evenly in all directions in a radial way. Like this

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 140516135010-04-ukraine-0516-horizontal-gallery

    But if the plane wing photo is confirmed it suggest the malasyan plane was attacked not by a missile from down but at the same altitude from a military plane Gun fire..   Shocked 

    IF the plane photo is confirmed ,it could be the worse planned false flag event ,ever made.. still Ukraine can get away with this . After 9/11 obvious false flag nothing will surprise me. No


    Last edited by Vann7 on Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:04 am; edited 1 time in total
    Zivo
    Zivo

    Posts : 1488
    Points : 1514
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Zivo on Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:59 am

    Airbornewolf wrote:
    medo wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUltrf8n_vA

    This video show traces of chaffs falling slowly to the ground near B777 crash site, what prove the presence of Ukrainian military jet as airliners doesn't have chaffs and flares. Presence of Ukrainian jet prove claims of Spanish dispatcher of Ukrainian fighters shadowing Malaysian airliner.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Origin11

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Origin13

    It's difficult to say, but some claim that those damages on airliner were done by air to air missile, not Buk. If this will be proven for truth, than we know, who is behind this false flag attack.

    thats definatly horizontal shrapnell allright, since the shrapnell went over one of the wings in a rather large angle the missile was targeting the engine under the wing. if it went for radar-lock the missile would have striked the main fuselage.

    and in my opinion it rules out vertical shrapnell too, the steel would all have been bent outwards with little surface damage around the holes. i support that theory too it was an AA missile judging from the picture.

    edit: dutch forum users got the same material, check out their analysis pictures. indeed engine-targeted according to shrapnell-path.

    http://forum.fok.nl/topic/2130358/1/999

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 9lqwtu11


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Fdpet710

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Cip8hi11

    Interesting, but it doesn't really prove much.

    Anti-aircraft missiles have proximity fuses for a reason. It could be an AA missile. It could also be Buk detonating behind or in front of the aircraft. If the engine disintegrated, it might also cause damage like that. I can't tell from the photos, but this could be either an entrance, or exit hole.

    This is why there needs to be an investigation.
    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1929
    Points : 2040
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:40 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    1) The combination of Malasyan Government wanting to save money in fuel by ordering their planes to fly over the shortest path at the risk of security.

    That's not true. The purpose was only a false-flag/human-shield exercise. This has been proven elsewhere in this thread.

    The proof is that MalAir changed MH17's flight path from the safe path outside of Nonorossiya, that they were using prior to the 17th of July, to a flight path through the war zone in Novorossiya on 17th of July. Q.E.D.

    For this to have happened, MalAir should have been following orders.

    Please don't propagate false notions.


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:37 am; edited 2 times in total
    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1929
    Points : 2040
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:51 am

    Viktor wrote:Whats going on here. Did Novorossia Army just shoot down another An-26?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK6W64eBpGo&feature=youtu.be

    Can somebody add something here about the details of what we are seeing?
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4445
    Points : 4549
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:25 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    1) The combination of Malasyan Government wanting to save money in fuel by ordering their planes to fly over the shortest path at the risk of security.

    That's not true. The purpose was only a false-flag/human-shield exercise. This has been proven elsewhere in this thread.

    The proof is that MalAir changed MH17's flight path from the safe path outside of Nonorossiya, that they were using prior to the 17th of July, to a flight path through the war zone in Novorossiya on 17th of July.

    For this to have happened, MalAir should have been following orders.

    Please don't propagate false notions.

    It is possible that Malasya is part of the crime.. but i do not see what can they gain from that?  
    But is also true.. that any country nation have the ultimate world over the airspace Civilians airlines are allowed
    to flight. So Ukraine is 100% responsible for the crash of that plane. Is Ukraine Airspace and all civilians airlines
    cannot simply fly over any place they want.. they need to request permission from the nation for any route.
    You can be right.. but do not ignore is Ukraine airspace and the are the ultimate authority there. of who can fly and where they can.
    sepheronx
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7091
    Points : 7359
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 30
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:34 am

    http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741561

    Putin has a lot of tact compared to the idiots in the western countries.  He just states the obvious to wait till investigations are over and no need to get hasty.  The man is very calm and is handling the blatant Russophobia quite well.  West on the other hand are all jumping to this to gain some political brownie points and instantly pointing fingers.  While John Kerry is claiming he has evidence of Russia's involvement.  Like all the previous evidence, none is really shown.  And this? None at all is shown.

    Edit: No, Malaysia would not be involved in this at all. The re-routing can be done by the ACO in Kiev. I remember reading when the day the plane went down, there was communication ongoing between the ACO and the Pilots of the aircraft. Guess the ACO re-routed them to that destination. In that case, Ukraine gov should be held accountable.

    What also strikes me as being interesting is that Indian news are stating that their aircrafts have been flying the area repeatedly for some time even during this whole conflict. So why all of a sudden a civil jet is shot down now, when none were earlier? Seps had the issues of dealing against the Ukr airforce, and as well, Indian jets were flying over the area. So why the aircraft now?
    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1929
    Points : 2040
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:49 am

    Deleted.


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total
    arpakola
    arpakola

    Posts : 1511
    Points : 1543
    Join date : 2014-03-12
    Age : 52
    Location : Athens

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  arpakola on Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:57 am

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 10494838_660397824052176_6020245898069639695_n

    lets focus where the real war is..
    avatar
    Vann7

    Posts : 4445
    Points : 4549
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:57 am

    Steelkov says many of the bodies in the plane were in a serious state of decomposition when they arrived
    at the crash scene.   The smell was like if the bodies died many days before. not fresh bodies.. the entire
    Malasyan plane thing looks a much bigger flase flag event that originally thought. The Malasyan airlines will have
    to be fully complicit on this false flag event. But also Netherlands ? from where the plane came.. not just Ukraine..

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/18/pro-russia-rebel-commander-suggests-passengers-die/

    But also the Dutch Government and US.  and possibly the plane that crashed in Ukraine is connected somehow
    with the previous malasyan plane who disappear. Something is very Fishy and i hope Russia send investigators
    because the so called international inspectors what they will do is sabotage the investigation.

    The delay of the investigators of days to enter the crash site could be planned ,so they do not experience
    the what Rebels say ,that the bodies were in big state of decomposition when Rebels arrive the same day
    to the crash scene.
    arpakola
    arpakola

    Posts : 1511
    Points : 1543
    Join date : 2014-03-12
    Age : 52
    Location : Athens

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  arpakola on Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:06 am

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/p526x296/10494838_660397824052176_6020245898069639695_n.jpg

    What Happened to the Malaysian Airliner?

    July 19, 2014

    Paul Craig Roberts

    Washington’s propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing the facts that we do have.

    One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.

    Another fact is that the separatists have no incentive to shoot down an airliner and neither does Russia. Anyone can tell the difference between low-flying attack aircraft and an airliner at 33,000 feet.

    The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.

    Just as the separatists and the Russian government have no incentive to shoot down an airliner, neither does the Ukrainian government nor, one would think, even the crazed extreme Ukrainian nationalists who have formed militias to take the fight against the separatists that the Ukrainian army is not keen to undertake–unless there was a plan to frame Russia.

    One Russian general familiar with the weapon system offered his opinion that it was a mistake made by the Ukrainian military untrained in the weapon’s use. The general said that although Ukraine has a few of the weapons, Ukrainians have had no training in their use in the 23 years since Ukraine separated from Russia. The general thinks it was an accident due to incompetence.

    This explanation makes a certain amount of sense and far more sense than Washington’s propaganda. The problem with the general’s explanation is that it does not explain why the Buk anti-aircraft missile system was deployed near or in a separatist territory. The separatists have no aircraft. It seems odd for Ukraine to have an expensive missile system in an area in which it is of no military use and where the position could be overrun and captured by separatists.

    As Washington, Kiev, and the presstitute media are committed to the propaganda that Putin did it, we are not going to get any reliable information from the US media. We will have to figure it out for ourselves.

    One way to begin is to ask: Why was the missile system where it was? Why risk an expensive missile system by deploying it in a conflict environment in which it is of no use? Incompetence is one answer, and another is that the missile system did have an intended use.

    What intended use? News reports and circumstantial evidence provide two answers. One is that the ultra-nationalist extremists intended to bring down Putin’s presidential airliner and confused the Malaysian airliner with the Russian airliner.

    The Interfax news agency citing anonymous sources, apparently air traffic controllers, reported that the Malaysian airliner and Putin’s airliner were traveling almost the identical route within a few minutes of one another. Interfax quotes its source: “I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft at 15:44 Moscow time. The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical.”

    I have not seen an official Russian denial, but according to news reports, the Russian government in response to the Interfax news report said that Putin’s presidential plane no longer flies the Ukraine route since the outbreak of hostilities.

    Before we take the denial at face value, we need to be aware that the implication that Ukraine attempted to assassinate the president of Russia implies war, which Russia wants to avoid. It also implies Washington’s complicity as it is highly unlikely that Washington’s puppet in Kiev would risk such a dangerous act without Washington’s backing. The Russian government, being intelligent and rational, would obviously deny reports of an attempted assassination of the Russian president by Washington and its Kiev puppet. Otherwise, Russia has to do something about it, and that means war.

    The second explanation is that the extremists who operate outside the official Ukrainian military, hatched a plot to down an airliner in order to cast the blame on Russia. If such a plot occurred, it likely originated with the CIA or some operative arm of Washington and was intended to force the EU to cease resisting Washington’s sanctions against Russia and to break off Europe’s valuable economic relationships with Russia. Washington is frustrated that its sanctions are unilateral, unsupported by its NATO puppets or any other countries in the world except possibly the lap-dog British PM.

    There is considerable circumstantial evidence in support of this second explanation. There is the youtube video which purports to be a conversation between a Russian general and separatists who are discussing having mistakenly brought down a civilian airliner. According to reports, expert examination of the code in the video reveal that it was made the day before the airliner was hit.

    Another problem with the video is that whereas we could say that separatists conceivably could confuse an airliner at 33,000 feet with a military attack plane, the Russian military would not. The only conclusion is that by involving the Russian military, the video doubly discredited itself.

    The circumstantial evidence easiest for non-technical people to understand is the on cue news programs organized to put the blame on Russia prior to the knowledge of any facts.

    In my previous article http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/17/sanctions-airliners-paul-craig-roberts/ I reported on the BBC news report which I heard and which was obviously primed to place all blame on Russia. The program ended with a BBC correspondent breathlessly reporting that he has just seen the youtube video and that the video is the smoking gun that proved Russia did it. There is no longer any doubt, he said. Somehow the information got on a video and on youtube before it reached the Ukrainian government or Washington.

    The evidence that Putin did it is a video made prior to the attack on the airliner. The entire BBC report aired over National Public Radio was orchestrated for the sole purpose of establishing prior to any evidence that Russia was responsible.

    Indeed the entire Western media spoke as one: Russia did it. And the presstitutes are still speaking the same way.

    Possibly, this uniform opinion merely reflects the pavlovian training of the Western media to automatically line up with Washington. No media source wants to be subject to criticism for being unamerican or to find itself isolated by majority opinion, which carries the day, and earn black marks for being wrong. As a former journalist for, and contributor to, America’s most important news publications, I know how this works.

    On the other hand, if we discount the pavlovian conditioning, the only conclusion is that the entire news cycle pertaining to the downing of the Malaysian airliner is orchestrated in order to lay the blame on Putin.

    Romesh Ratnesar, deputy editor of Bloomberg Businessweek, provides convincing evidence for orchestration in his own remarks of July 17. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-17/the-malaysia-airlines-shootdown-spells-disaster-for-putin?campaign_id=DN071814 Ratnesar’s opinion title is: “The Malaysia Airlines Shootdown Spells Disaster for Putin.” Ratnesar does not mean that Putin is being framed-up. He means that prior to Putin having the Malaysian airliner shot down, “to the vast majority of Americans, Russia’s meddling in Ukraine has largely seemed of peripheral importance to U.S. interests. That calculus has changed. . . . It may take months, even years, but Putin’s recklessness is bound to catch up to him. When it does, the downing of MH 17 may be seen as the beginning of his undoing.”

    As a former Wall Street Journal editor, anyone who handed me a piece of shit like Ratnesar published would have been fired. Look at the insinuations when there is no evidence to support them. Look at the lie that Washington’s coup is “Russia’s meddling in Ukraine.” What we are witnessing is the total corruption of Western journalism by Washington’s imperial agenda. Journalists have to get on board with the lies or get run over.

    Look around for still honest journalists. Who are they? Glenn Greenwald, who is under constant attack by his fellow journalists, all of whom are whores. Who else can you think of? Julian Assange, locked away in the Ecuadoran Embassy in London on Washington’s orders. The British puppet government won’t permit free transit to Assange to take up his asylum in Ecuador. The last country that did this was the Soviet Union, which required its Hungarian puppet to keep Cardinal Mindszenty interred in the US Embassy in Budapest for 15 years from 1956 until 1971. Mindszenty was granted political asylum by the United States, but Hungary, on Soviet orders, would not honor his asylum, just as Washington’s British puppet, on Washington’s orders, will not honor Assange’s asylum.

    If we are honest and have the strength to face reality, we will realize that the Soviet Union did not collapse. It simply moved, along with Mao and Pol Pot, to Washington and London.

    The flaw in Putin’s diplomacy is that Putin’s diplomacy relies on good will and on truth prevailing. However, the West has no good will, and Washington is not interested in truth prevailing but in Washington prevailing. What Putin confronts is not reasonable “partners,” but a propaganda ministry aimed at him.

    I understand Putin’s strategy, which contrasts Russian reasonableness with Washington’s threats, but it is a risky bet. Europe has long been a part of Washington, and there are no Europeans in power who have the vision needed to separate Europe from Washington. Moreover, European leaders are paid large sums of money to serve Washington. One year out of office and Tony Blair was worth $50 million dollars.

    After the disasters that Europeans have experienced, it is unlikely that European leaders think of anything other than a comfortable existence for themselves. That existence is best obtained by serving Washington. As the successful extortion of Greece by banks proves, European people are powerless.

    Here is the official statement of the Russian Defense Ministry: http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh-17-crash-in-ukraine-official-statement-from-russian-defense-ministry/5392000

    Washington’s propaganda assault against Russia is a double tragedy, because it has diverted attention from Israel’s latest atrocity against the Palestinians locked up in the Gaza Ghetto. Israel claims that its air attack and invasion of Gaza is merely Israel’s attempt to find and close the alleged tunnels through which Palestinian terrorists pour into Israel inflicting carnage. Of course there are no tunnels and no terrorist carnage in Israel.

    One might think that at least one journalist somewhere in the American media would ask why bombing hospitals and civilian housing closes underground tunnels into Israel. But that is too much to ask of the whores that comprise the US media.

    Expect even less from the US Congress. Both the House and Senate have passed resolutions supporting Israel’s slaughter of Palestinians. Two Republicans–the despicable Lindsey Graham and the disappointing Rand Paul–and two democrats–Bob Menendez and Ben Cardin–sponsored the Senate resolution backing Israel’s premeditated murder of Palestinian women and children. The resolution passed the “exceptional and indispensable” people’s Senate unanimously.

    As a reward for its policy of genocide, the Obama regime is immediately transferring $429 million of US taxpayers’ money to Israel to pay for the slaughter.

    Contrast the US government’s support for Israel’s war crimes with the propaganda onslaught against Russia based on lies. We are living all over again “Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction,” “Assad’s use of chemical weapons,” “Iranian nukes.”

    Washington has lied for so long that it can’t do anything else.
    arpakola
    arpakola

    Posts : 1511
    Points : 1543
    Join date : 2014-03-12
    Age : 52
    Location : Athens

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty here we are... old ideas .. in new geography

    Post  arpakola on Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:38 am

    here we are... old ideas .. in new geography

    8. It is possible to create an incident wich will demonstrate
    convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down
    a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States to
    Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Vezuela. The destination would
    be closen only to cause to glight plan route to cross Cuba
    ....

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 1

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 2
    arpakola
    arpakola

    Posts : 1511
    Points : 1543
    Join date : 2014-03-12
    Age : 52
    Location : Athens

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  arpakola on Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:49 am

    Ukrainian troops shelling a swimming beach.

    arpakola
    arpakola

    Posts : 1511
    Points : 1543
    Join date : 2014-03-12
    Age : 52
    Location : Athens

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  arpakola on Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:27 pm

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 SenariaPolemouDBL

    Ukraine crisis is not irrelevent to this >> http://en.ria.ru/analysis/20140715/190943464/US-Dollars-Days-Are-Numbered-as-BRICS-Meet.html US Dollar’s Days Are Numbered as BRICS Meet

    avatar
    Austin

    Posts : 7587
    Points : 7984
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Austin on Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:36 pm

    The Downing Of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17: 5 Things You Need To Know


    1) The evidence currently points overwhelmingly at the rebels

    As of yet there is no hard evidence that conclusively establishes a particular party’s guilt. That level of proof will only be reached after experts have had a chance to examine the wreckage, if it is ever reached at all. With that being said, the pro-Russian rebels are certainly acting as if they have something to hide. The rebels are currently conducting an active purge of the social media sites on which they had earlier bragged of downing a Ukrainian transport plane and their spokespeople are furiously denying that they had the means to shoot down a plane at such a high altitude. It’s not a particularly sophisticated campaign (simply deleting a tweet doesn’t make it disappear if it’s already been shared hundreds of time) and it has a certain desperation to it. So while it is technically still possible that the Ukrainian armed forces were responsible, after all they do have a spotty track record when it comes to civilian airliners, the odds that it was the rebels are huge and growing.

    2) You should still be suspicious of the Ukrainian government, particularly its security services

    Almost immediately after MH 17 went down, the Security Service of Ukraine (which is usually referred to by its Ukrainian abbreviation of SBU) released several YouTube clips of conversations between separatists in which they discuss the downing of a civilian airliner. These recordings quickly made the rounds on the internet and were approvingly shared by well-regarded journalists like Anne Applebaum. The simple fact, though, is that the SBU is a former part of the KGB and its claims should therefore be treated with extreme skepticism. Throughout the crisis the SBU has repeatedly made claims, for example it had captured “dozens” of Russian intelligence and military officers, that have proven to be untrue. Basically, given its history as an organization and its recent track record, you should extend to the SBU the same level of trust that you extent to the Russian FSB.

    3) The investigation has gotten off to the worst start imaginable

    While the Russians, the Ukrainians, and even the rebels initially promised to cooperate with a “full and fair” investigation, the reality has been a lot uglier. The rebels running security at the crash site have not only been highly unprofessional (e.g. reeking of alcohol) they’ve been actively hindering the investigation. One rebel even shot over the heads of an OSCE delegation after they momentarily wandered out of the area they were “supposed” to be in. There’s so much international attention focused on the story that it’s possible these problems will eventually be resolved, but some of the most important investigative work takes place in the immediate aftermath of an aviation disaster and that work is simply not taking place. One can hope for the best, but it’s entirely possible that the initial delays in allowing trained specialists access to the site will permanently compromise the investigation.

    4) The missile that was used was not a “sophisticated piece of technology” but an aging Soviet-era dinosaur

    Lots of people, including some very senior officials in the Obama administration like Samantha Power, have repeatedly emphasized the “sophistication” of the SA-11 missile system, commonly referred to as the “Buk.” This is very strange. The SA-11 is hardly a cutting-edge piece of technology, as it was developed by the Soviet Union in the 1970′s. You read that correctly, the Buk was designed and first built while Leonid Brezhnev was premier of the Soviet Union. The average smart phone has more processing power than an SA-11 battery, and even the Ukrainian army has more advanced anti-aircraft weapons in its arsenal. The fact that a missile is old doesn’t make it any less deadly, but the simple fact is that the Buk is old and outdated. This technology has been around for a very long time and has been used by armies, like the Soviet Union’s, with generally low level of troop training. It just does not take a world-class military to operate such a system.

    5) This is turning into an PR catastrophe for the Russian government


    If, as currently seems overwhelmingly likely, MH17 was brought down by rebels fighting against the Ukrainian government Russia is going to have a spotlight shined on some of its most unsavory behavior. Over the past several months Russia have been covertly and not-so-covertly supporting the rebels in Eastern Ukraine in their struggle against Kiev. Outside of Washington DC, Russia has so far managed to largely avoid any negative repercussions for this behavior. The downing of MH17 will change that. What had previously been of concern only to the, relatively small, number of think tankers and analysts studying the region will now become front page news across the entire planet. If it turns out that the pro-Russia rebels have the blood of hundreds of innocent civilians on their hands, Russia’s position on Ukraine will become increasingly untenable. I’ve written before that Russia’s “isolation” is largely a myth, but if Russia starts to become associated with “shooting civilian airliners out of the sky” that could change very quickly.

    Follow me on Twitter @MarkAdomanis or on Facebook
    Werewolf
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5251
    Points : 5454
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:41 pm

    Austin wrote:The Downing Of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17: 5 Things You Need To Know


    1) The evidence currently points overwhelmingly at the rebels

    As of yet there is no hard evidence that conclusively establishes a particular party’s guilt. That level of proof will only be reached after experts have had a chance to examine the wreckage, if it is ever reached at all. With that being said, the pro-Russian rebels are certainly acting as if they have something to hide. The rebels are currently conducting an active purge of the social media sites on which they had earlier bragged of downing a Ukrainian transport plane and their spokespeople are furiously denying that they had the means to shoot down a plane at such a high altitude. It’s not a particularly sophisticated campaign (simply deleting a tweet doesn’t make it disappear if it’s already been shared hundreds of time)  and it has a certain desperation to it. So while it is technically still possible that the Ukrainian armed forces were responsible, after all they do have a spotty track record when it comes to civilian airliners, the odds that it was the rebels are huge and growing.

    2) You should still be suspicious of the Ukrainian government, particularly its security services

    Almost immediately after MH 17 went down, the Security Service of Ukraine (which is usually referred to by its Ukrainian abbreviation of SBU) released several YouTube clips of conversations between separatists in which they discuss the downing of a civilian airliner. These recordings quickly made the rounds on the internet and were approvingly shared by well-regarded journalists like Anne Applebaum. The simple fact, though, is that the SBU is a former part of the KGB and its claims should therefore be treated with extreme skepticism. Throughout the crisis the SBU has repeatedly made claims, for example it had captured “dozens” of Russian intelligence and military officers, that have proven to be untrue. Basically, given its history as an organization and its recent track record, you should extend to the SBU the same level of trust that you extent to the Russian FSB.

    3) The investigation has gotten off to the worst start imaginable

    While the Russians, the Ukrainians, and even the rebels initially promised to cooperate with a “full and fair” investigation, the reality has been a lot uglier. The rebels running security at the crash site have not only been highly unprofessional (e.g. reeking of alcohol) they’ve been actively hindering the investigation. One rebel even shot over the heads of an OSCE delegation after they momentarily wandered out of the area they were “supposed” to be in. There’s so much international attention focused on the story that it’s possible these problems will eventually be resolved, but some of the most important investigative work takes place in the immediate aftermath of an aviation disaster and that work is simply not taking place. One can hope for the best, but it’s entirely possible that the initial delays in allowing trained specialists access to the site will permanently compromise the investigation.

    4) The missile that was used was not a “sophisticated piece of technology” but an aging Soviet-era dinosaur

    Lots of people, including some very senior officials in the Obama administration like Samantha Power, have repeatedly emphasized the “sophistication” of the SA-11 missile system, commonly referred to as the “Buk.” This is very strange. The SA-11 is hardly a cutting-edge piece of technology, as it was developed by the Soviet Union in the 1970′s. You read that correctly, the Buk was designed and first built while Leonid Brezhnev was premier of the Soviet Union.  The average smart phone has more processing power than an SA-11 battery, and even the Ukrainian army has more advanced anti-aircraft weapons in its arsenal. The fact that a missile is old doesn’t make it any less deadly, but the simple fact is that the Buk is old and outdated. This technology has been around for a very long time and has been used by armies, like the Soviet Union’s, with generally low level of troop training. It just does not take a world-class military to operate such a system.

    5) This is turning into an PR catastrophe for the Russian government


    If, as currently seems overwhelmingly likely, MH17 was brought down by rebels fighting against the Ukrainian government Russia is going to have a spotlight shined on some of its most unsavory behavior. Over the past several months Russia have been covertly and not-so-covertly supporting the rebels in Eastern Ukraine in their struggle against Kiev. Outside of Washington DC, Russia has so far managed to largely avoid any negative repercussions for this behavior. The downing of MH17 will change that. What had previously been of concern only to the, relatively small, number of think tankers and analysts studying the region will now become front page news across the entire planet. If it turns out that the pro-Russia rebels have the blood of hundreds of innocent civilians on their hands, Russia’s position on Ukraine will become increasingly untenable. I’ve written before that Russia’s “isolation” is largely a myth, but if Russia starts to become associated with “shooting civilian airliners out of the sky” that could change very quickly.

    Follow me on Twitter @MarkAdomanis or on Facebook

    After reading that crap i thought who writes that nonsense and then.... i clicked on the link "Forbes".
    No comment needed, really.
    arpakola
    arpakola

    Posts : 1511
    Points : 1543
    Join date : 2014-03-12
    Age : 52
    Location : Athens

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  arpakola on Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:42 pm

    Austin wrote:The Downing Of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17: 5 Things You Need To Know


    1) The evidence currently points overwhelmingly at the rebels

    As of yet there is no hard evidence that conclusively establishes a particular party’s guilt. That level of proof will only be reached after experts have had a chance to examine the wreckage, if it is ever reached at all. With that being said, the pro-Russian rebels are certainly acting as if they have something to hide. The rebels are currently conducting an active purge of the social media sites on which they had earlier bragged of downing a Ukrainian transport plane and their spokespeople are furiously denying that they had the means to shoot down a plane at such a high altitude. It’s not a particularly sophisticated campaign (simply deleting a tweet doesn’t make it disappear if it’s already been shared hundreds of time)  and it has a certain desperation to it. So while it is technically still possible that the Ukrainian armed forces were responsible, after all they do have a spotty track record when it comes to civilian airliners, the odds that it was the rebels are huge and growing.
    .....

    Follow me on Twitter @MarkAdomanis or on Facebook

    a bit of BS  I would say ..
    1.what concludes that the plane was downed by seps?
    2. How they act ..?
    3. I wonder how the examination of the  wreckage will tell any story on who shot the missile..

    Just cafe time talking..
    =============================

    in the real life now ..
    NickM
    NickM

    Posts : 178
    Points : 123
    Join date : 2012-11-09
    Location : NYC,USA / Essex,UK

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  NickM on Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:01 pm

    arpakola wrote:The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 SenariaPolemouDBL

    Ukraine crisis is not irrelevent to this >> http://en.ria.ru/analysis/20140715/190943464/US-Dollars-Days-Are-Numbered-as-BRICS-Meet.html US Dollar’s Days Are Numbered as BRICS Meet

    Which planet do you live in ??? BRICS as an alternative to the US or UK ??? You need to add a disclaimer that your source of info is Cartoon Network.

    Majority of the people in those BRICS countries are migrating to the US and UK . They have no interest in staying back in those failed states .

    Come down here to London and you will see it for yourself , every second individual is from Asia or Africa .

    The same is the situation in Australia , Canada , New Zealand and US . Is the reverse true ???

    Do you see people from the West migrating to the BRICS ?????

    Like it or not the Western world will remain the dominating chip stack in the foreseeable future .

    Dig this ,the "rebels/separatist" have shot down the plane & there is zero relation to BRICS .

    Sponsored content

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 20 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:39 pm