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    V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue May 19, 2015 11:54 pm

    medo wrote:It' about time to get Strela-10 replacement. I hope Sosna will get in production as soon as possible.

    I don't know, both Strela-10 and Osa should be still useful with a cheap and effective modernization...this makes sense when you realize there are hundreds of Strela-10's and Osa is service, those vehicles will still be effective defeating a mass tactical nuclear cruise missile attack!

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 20, 2015 9:32 am

    Likely the SOSNA-R system is fairly modular and will consist of the turret and some screens and computer boxes in the hull of that MT-LB.

    That would mean that when operating with a Boomerang or Typhoon or Kurganets unit they could use a software upgrade/patch to use existing crew terminals with a few computer boxes in the rear hull and of course the standard turret.

    I rather suspect Kurganets, Boomerang and armata might have pantsir instead because it is a larger and more capable system while Sosna might be used for airborne units and typhoon units to keep the weight down.

    I don't know, both Strela-10 and Osa should be still useful with a cheap and effective modernization...this makes sense when you realize there are hundreds of Strela-10's and Osa is service, those vehicles will still be effective defeating a mass tactical nuclear cruise missile attack!

    Might sound strange but the Sosna will likely be cheaper than the Strela-10M and comparable to the OSA as the Strela-10M has an IR seeker, while the Osa is command guided.... the sosna would be a more capable system with double the range of Strela-10M and higher speed and likely better resistence to the countermeasures of the target... and as can be seen from the models and actual vehicles able to carry more ready to fire missiles.

    The older systems can be sold off over time but would still be very capable systems in their own right.


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu May 21, 2015 2:57 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    medo wrote:It' about time to get Strela-10 replacement. I hope Sosna will get in production as soon as possible.

    I don't know, both Strela-10 and Osa should be still useful with a cheap and effective modernization...this makes sense when you realize there are hundreds of Strela-10's and Osa is service, those vehicles will still be effective defeating a mass tactical nuclear cruise missile attack!

    Well, some Strela-10's will be staying around for a while yet in upgraded form....72 of them according to the below report

       


    Russia's armed forces to receive upgraded SAM 'Strela-10M4'

    Director of "Precision Engineering Design Bureau - AE Nudelman" Vladimir Slobodchikov said:

    "Last year, to the Russian Airborne Troops were delivered the first batch of 18 'Strela-10M4'. "It is planned to deliver a total 72 systems. The rest will be transferred during 2015 and 2016. This involves the modernization of existing vehicles as new ones are not made.

    Improving technology extends the "life" of the SAM for 3-5 years. "Those"Strela-10" that will not be upgraded, are likely to be removed from service - to be replaced by "Sosna" and the new Russian-Belarusian complex. "Strela-10" is a good complex, but obsolete. First of all, it's max range is 5 km. For comparison, the range of "Sosna" - 10 kilometers, "- he explained.

    http://www.i-mash.ru/news/nov_otrasl/66497-vooruzhennye-sily-rossii-poluchat.html


    STRELA-10M4 Specs & pic



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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:09 pm

    Air defense systems "Sosna" will be placed on a small ship

    So Gibka but with 12 Missiles? good choice for small boats especially when used with Verbas
    Pine = Sosna



    http://minpromtorg.gov.ru/press-centre/all/#!zenitnye_raketnye_kompleksy_sosna_planiruetsya_razmeshhat_na_nebolshih_korablyah
    Precision Engineering Design Bureau named. AE Nudelman develops option to install its newest anti-aircraft missile complex "Pine" on small displacement vehicles.

    "We have created marine complexes" Palma "have a serious weight: 6.9 tonnes at ZAC" Palma "and up to 7.2 tons - at SPAR" Palma ". These complexes can be equipped with only vessels with a displacement of 500 tons. At present, we are working on the issue of installing small ships with a displacement of less than 500 tons of military unit from SAM "Pine". The ship immediately gets new qualities defeats the purpose - in range and height, respectively, 10 and 5 kilometers, "- told RIA" Novosti "deputy general director of" high-precision systems, "the managing director of CB Tochmash Vladimir Slobodchikov.

    According to him, mounted on small vehicles complex will be able to shoot and airplanes and helicopters, and surface and ground targets. The complex includes the same rocket, which is equipped with land and "Pine". The cost of a new air defense system will be significantly lower than the cost, "Palm", the developers.

    The automated anti-aircraft missile complex "Pine" can be used effectively at any time, in conditions of reduced visibility, with the possible presence of natural and man-made interference. Through the use of high-precision automatic optical-electronic system provided by stealth and automation of combat operation. Target detection is performed off-line using opto-electronic system and in external targeting. Anti-aircraft missile complex "Pine" was created as a deep modernization of air defense missile systems "Strela-10". Distinctive features of the new version: increased firing range - from 5 to 10 kilometers and height - from 3.5 to 5 kilometers.

    Founded in 1934, Precision Engineering Design Bureau named. AE Nudelman (included in the holding "Highly complex" State Corporation Rostec) creates systems and systems of weapons and military equipment. Develop them for the benefit of almost all branches of the armed forces. Design departments work mainly in the following areas: high-precision systems for aerospace defense, guided missiles for armored vehicles, air defense tactical level for the Army and Navy guided artillery rounds for artillery systems, laser subjects.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:42 am

    Gibka is merely a MANPADS mount firing 6km range mach 2.5 or so IR guided missiles.

    In comparison SOSNA has 10km range mach 3+ laser beam riding missiles... much faster, much longer range... it will likely be on a Palma mount with 30mm gatlings...


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:Gibka is merely a MANPADS mount firing 6km range mach 2.5 or so IR guided missiles.

    In comparison SOSNA has 10km range mach 3+ laser beam riding missiles... much faster, much longer range... it will likely be on a Palma mount with 30mm gatlings...

    Mea culpa I always thought that Sosna was using Igla missiles. If 7 ton is to be kept then unlikely with Gatlings. Kashtan with Gatling weights from 12,5 till 15,000 tons.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:11 am

    If 7 ton is to be kept then unlikely with Gatlings.

    Most of the weight is ammo... the 30mm gatlings the Russians have are about 150kgs in the 6 barrel models... even trying the Tunguska approach with twin barrel models that only reduces the weight by about 35kgs per gun plus a rate of fire reduction from 6,000 rpm to 2,500 rpm per gun.

    Personally I understand combining missile and gun systems on land vehicles but I think it is a little redundant on ships... a few SOSNA mounts with missiles and a couple of Duet mounts with twin 30mm gatlings make rather more sense to me... especially for smaller boats.


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    If 7 ton is to be kept then unlikely with Gatlings.

    Most of the weight is ammo... the 30mm gatlings the Russians have are about 150kgs in the 6 barrel models... even trying the Tunguska approach with twin barrel models that only reduces the weight by about 35kgs per gun plus a rate of fire reduction from 6,000 rpm to 2,500 rpm per gun.

    Personally I understand combining missile and gun systems on land vehicles but I think it is a little redundant on ships... a few SOSNA mounts with missiles and a couple of Duet mounts with twin 30mm gatlings make rather more sense to me... especially for smaller boats.

    True but here IMHO mass and place is crucial parameter. With weight in same order or magnitude as GIbka you got say in NATO terms RAM-21 level of little ship protection. BTW as for guns much better option IMHO is to use 57/76 or even 100mm guns with programmable air burst ammo to counter missiles. Range is at least 2x and this gives practically a wall of tungsten balls for every incoming missile ...

    I ma not sure if 76mm is not better same rate as 57 and longer range and more tungsten shards inside.

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    Sosna SHORAD

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:57 am

    True but here IMHO mass and place is crucial parameter. With weight in same order or magnitude as GIbka you got say in NATO terms RAM-21 level of little ship protection. BTW as for guns much better option IMHO is to use 57/76 or even 100mm guns with programmable air burst ammo to counter missiles. Range is at least 2x and this gives practically a wall of tungsten balls for every incoming missile ...

    You can't fire a warning shot with Gibka... guns together with missiles offer the best possible protection and flexibility.

    A burst of 30mm cannon shells off to the side can serve as a warning.

    30mm gatlings are always ready to fire, whereas with a heavy calibre weapon IMHO I would go for guided shells against missiles and aircraft...


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:44 am

    Upgraded Tunguska with a Thermal-Optical Auto tracking system and reportedly improved radar parameters (max effective vertical range increased to 6000m)


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    Russian SHORAD systems

    Post  Viktor on Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:30 pm

    Nice video from testing

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP3mg599b9g

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:06 am

    Entering service seems to be just around the corner thumbsup




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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  George1 on Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:24 am

    Viktor wrote:Entering service seems to be just around the corner  thumbsup


    Is this Sosna-R?


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:30 am

    George1 wrote:Is this Sosna-R?

    Yes it is.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:10 am

    - I assume the Sosnas will replace the Strela-10s and Strela-1s in service, as well as the VDVs BTR-ZD vehicles. Albeit the Strela-10s are currently getting upgraded, so they'll be around for a while.
    - We also have Tor-M1/M2s steadily replacing the Osa vehicles.
    - The Pantsirs haven't been procured for the Ground Forces yet but I assume that they eventually will be (although the Tunguskas easily have a couple upgrade cycles left in them); whereupon it will start replacing the Tunguskas there.

    How's this for a prognosis

    Right now the Ground Forces have: ZU-23-2s + Strela-1s + Strela-10s + Osas + Tors + Tunguskas (ZU-23-4s in reserve)
    Within the next 10 years the balance will change to: Zu-23-2s + Strela-10s + Sosnas + Tors + Tunguskas + Pantsirs (Strela-1s, Osas, ZU-23-4s in reserve)
    And eventually to: Zu-23-2s + Sosnas + Tors + Pantsirs (Strela-10s, Osas, Tunguskas in reserve)

    The VDV currently has: BTR-ZDs + Strela-10s*
    Within the next 10 years the balance will change to: Sosnas + Pantsirs** (BTR-ZDs in reserve)
    * The Strela-10s are not air-droppable, so they will probably be replaced with some priority even despite the fact that the VDV only very recently acquired them and have the latest M4 variant.
    ** If they can create a lightweight Pantsir platform.

    The Marines have: Strela-1s + Strela-10s* + Osas + ZU-23-4s
    Within the next 10 years the balance will change to: Sosnas + Tors** + Pantsirs (Strela-10s, Osas, ZU-23-4s in reserve)
    * They might well get rid of Strela-10s faster than the army as they may well switch to the Kurganets chassis faster (they've long been neglected and are due for some attention and new vehicles).
    ** Albeit they might just skip on the Tors.

    VDV will have MANPADs Sosna-Rs

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  George1 on Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:36 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    - The Pantsirs haven't been procured for the Ground Forces yet but I assume that they eventually will be (although the Tunguskas easily have a couple upgrade cycles left in them); whereupon it will start replacing the Tunguskas there.

    Τhe Pantsyrs however are more advanced than Tunguska in terms of range, its a Short to Medium range AS System. Something between Tor and Buk.

    I think Pantsyr is the Tunguska analogue in Air Force and in air defence of military/industrial/administrative installations not the replacement of Tunguska in Ground Forces


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Book. on Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:02 am

    300 tuguska moderna ok
    Fcs to digital. TI optic

    I think new life help.. study

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:48 am

    The Strela-10 (known in the west as SA-13 and based on an MTLB chassis instead of the smaller and less capable SA-9 on the BRDM-2 chassis) was a replacement for the ZU-23-2 towed 23mm cannon.

    It was a stopgap measure until SOSNA-R is ready.

    Among the ground forces I suspect the ZU-23-2 might be replaced by a single gun twin barrel 2A38M cannon on a light trailer... it has been shown in the past with a large EO ball and a quad launcher for SAMs.

    Regarding the Tunguska and Pantsir question... I rather suspect all the development of the sensors and systems and missiles that has gone into the Pantsir-S1 will likely be applied to the Tunguska, which will continue in service in the Army. the Pantsir will likely also be adopted by the navy too as its extended missile envelope and improved sensors, as well as its new multi target engagement capability make it a rather more capable system without greatly increasing costs... though it is not cheap to buy... it would be relatively cheap to actually use and flexible with options of missiles and cannon shells.


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Strela-10 (known in the west as SA-13 and based on an MTLB chassis instead of the smaller and less capable SA-9 on the BRDM-2 chassis) was a replacement for the ZU-23-2 towed 23mm cannon.

    It was a stopgap measure until SOSNA-R is ready.

    Among the ground forces I suspect the ZU-23-2 might be replaced by a single gun twin barrel 2A38M cannon on a light trailer... it has been shown in the past with a large EO ball and a quad launcher for SAMs.

    Regarding the Tunguska and Pantsir question... I rather suspect all the development of the sensors and systems and missiles that has gone into the Pantsir-S1 will likely be applied to the Tunguska, which will continue in service in the Army. the Pantsir will likely also be adopted by the navy too as its extended missile envelope and improved sensors, as well as its new multi target engagement capability make it a rather more capable system without greatly increasing costs... though it is not cheap to buy... it would be relatively cheap to actually use and flexible with options of missiles and cannon shells.

    Yes the Tunguska will certainly continue for a long time, just as the T-90s, BTR-82s, BMP-3s, Msta-Ss, etc... will.

    However, when it comes to the Armata/Kurganets/Bumerang-based vehicles; for air defence they will likely use Pantsir modules on their base chassis; and as these vehicle families take over a bigger proportion of the Armed Forces, so too will the Pantsir naturally replace the Tunguska - albeit it will be a slow process.

    There is also the 'Morfei' system, and I have no idea how it will fit into all this.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  George1 on Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:19 pm

    Belarus, Russia Start Development of New Air Defense System

    Belarusian Deputy Defense Minister said that Belarus and Russia have started joint development of a new short-range air defense system.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – Belarus and Russia have started joint development of a new short-range air defense system to replace the outdated Strela-10M systems currently in service with the Russian and the Belarusian armed forces, Belarusian Deputy Defense Minister Maj. Gen. Igor Lotenkov said.

    “The work is being carried out in the framework of the [Russia-Belarus] Union State. The project involves the development of a short-range air defense system,” Lotenkov told RIA Novosti.

    The general added that the Strela-10M system was developed in early 1970’s and does not meet current air defense requirements.

    Belarus is expecting the delivery of the first six Mi-8MTV-5 military transport helicopters from Russia under the 2015 contract by the end of 2016, Igor Lotenkov said.

    The Belarusian Defense Ministry signed a contract with Russian Helicopters during the Army-2015 forum in June on the supply of 12 Mi-8MTV-5 military transport helicopters.

    "As to the implementation of the contract on the supply of Mi-8MTV-5 helicopters, signed at the Army-2015 forum, we are planning to finalize the first stage – the delivery of six helicopters – by the end of 2016," Lotenkov said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150820/1025958282.html#ixzz3jMudYEnf


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:51 pm

    George1 wrote:Belarus, Russia Start Development of New Air Defense System

    Belarusian Deputy Defense Minister said that Belarus and Russia have started joint development of a new short-range air defense system.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – Belarus and Russia have started joint development of a new short-range air defense system to replace the outdated Strela-10M systems currently in service with the Russian and the Belarusian armed forces, Belarusian Deputy Defense Minister Maj. Gen. Igor Lotenkov said.

    “The work is being carried out in the framework of the [Russia-Belarus] Union State. The project involves the development of a short-range air defense system,” Lotenkov told RIA Novosti.

    The general added that the Strela-10M system was developed in early 1970’s and does not meet current air defense requirements.

    Belarus is expecting the delivery of the first six Mi-8MTV-5 military transport helicopters from Russia under the 2015 contract by the end of 2016, Igor Lotenkov said.

    The Belarusian Defense Ministry signed a contract with Russian Helicopters during the Army-2015 forum in June on the supply of 12 Mi-8MTV-5 military transport helicopters.

    "As to the implementation of the contract on the supply of Mi-8MTV-5 helicopters, signed at the Army-2015 forum, we are planning to finalize the first stage – the delivery of six helicopters – by the end of 2016," Lotenkov said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150820/1025958282.html#ixzz3jMudYEnf
    Umm.. isn't that what the Sosna was for?

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:53 am

    Perhaps they are doing what they did with Pantsir-S1 with the UAE... joint development with a partner so you can use it domestically and have another guaranteed market at the same time... Smile


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:10 am

    Interesting, but i thought Belarus is atm modernising their Osa systems to T38 Stilet standard not sure how much space they have for another SHORAD, wouldnt it be easier just to obtain some Pantisr systems from Russia than developing totally different system to suplement Stilet.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  George1 on Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:42 pm

    State tests of the newest air defense systems "Sosna" will be completed in 2016

    The main difference between the latest anti-missile short-range "Sosna" is increased twice in comparison with analogue, a complex "Strela", hitting the target range - from 5 to 10 kilometers, said the deputy director Sergei Ignatov.

    Kuwait, December 9 - RIA Novosti. The state tests of the newest anti-aircraft missile system of short-range "Sosna" will start at the beginning of 2016, so that by the middle of the year to present the complex of the Defense Ministry, told RIA Novosti on Wednesday in Kuwait Deputy Director KBtochmash (developer of the complex) Sergey Ignatov.

    "State tests begin in early 2016. We have a representative of the Defense Ministry complex in the middle of the year. Then expect to sign a contract with the Defense Ministry," - said Ignatiev.

    According to him, the complex is designed on the technical task the Ministry of Defence, its main difference is increased twice in comparison with analogue, a complex "Strela", hitting the target range - from 5 to 10 kilometers.

    The complex can be located on the track platform and the wheel on the boat, on the beach. "The main thing is that the platform meets the load-carrying capacity - of the order of 4 tons," - said Ignatiev.

    In Kuwait, passes gun shows Gulf Defense and Aerospace, in which the Russian delegation participated for the first time.


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Militarov on Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:49 pm

    "State trials of the new Russian short-range Sosna missile defense system will begin in early 2016 so that the Russian Defense Ministry can deliver the complex by the middle of the year, a deputy head of the system’s designers said Wedesday.

    The system is intended to protect against all types of air threats including high-precision weapons e.g. cruise missiles and guided aircraft missiles in the area of the system responsibility: in range – up to 10 km, in altitude – up to 5 km.

    Structure principles

    • mount of missile armament with a launcher in one combat vehicle, air search and target tracking equipments, missile flight control units that are combined by integrated optronic combat control system
    • missile armament consists of 12 high-speed high-precision maintenance-free missiles SOSNA-R deployed in a launcher. Light weight of the missiles allows to dispose of a transport/loading vehicle from the system
    • optimal configuration of surface-to-air guided missile (SAM) payload allows to improve impact effect due to increased weight of spread warheads and application of impact/non-impact laser fuse with continuous circular beam pattern and adaptive burst time
    • special multichannel automatic high-precision practically all-weather and day/night optronic control system
    • combined missile control system:
    – radio command system in start zone
    – remote orientation in laser beam after engine division and missile targeting to the line-of-sight
    • optronic combat control system with sector scan and in the automate target designation mode provide autonomous target detection capability

    Qualities

    • high effectiveness of combat application including high-speed and low-flying targets and helicopters during pop-up maneuvers
    • high automation of combat processes
    • day/night and all-weather capability of combat processes
    • concealed fire preparation and high survivability
    • unlimited minimum flight altitude of hitting target
    • radar and optical countermeasure equipments immunity
    • capacity to firing on the move"




    Source: http://defence-blog.com/news/russia-to-complete-tests-of-newest-short-range-sosna-missile-defense-system-in-2016.html

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