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    V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

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    Viktor
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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:57 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Should be popular with Strela-10 (SA-13) users assuming it's reasonably priced. I wonder if the Rus. Army would be interested considering they use large number of Strela-10's

    This system is good for winged missiles, helicopters, attack planes and protection of command posts and radar.

    Fighter planes on the other hand can easily overfly it.

    It has its purpose and should be rather cheap in comparison. Many armies all over the world will find it useful and in need of such

    system. System is highly mobile and can be connected to AD network so it can receive info about the targets well in advance and

    command post like PPRU-M1-2 will distribute the targets between the SAMs.




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    VSHORAD SAMs

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:50 am

    Should be popular with Strela-10 (SA-13) users assuming it's reasonably priced. I wonder if the Rus. Army would be interested considering they use large number of Strela-10's

    In many ways the Sosna-R is the land based version of Palma and is designed as the low cost version of Kashtan-M or Pantsir-S1.

    In the Army it would operate in the SAM missile platoons to compliment the gun/SAM platoons armed currently with Tunguska-M1.

    I believe Sosna-R is the export name for the system and the domestic name is Baikanuk or something similar and it is intended as a very low cost replacement for SA-13 that will operate with Pantsir-S1.

    In those roles both systems would be very capable with the Baikanuk being cheap to buy and operate while the Pantsir-S1 is cheap to operate but also very capable.. Pantsir-S1 can engage the high flyers but the very high flying targets would be dealt with at a higher level by BUK and Vityaz.


    Ceramic applique armor obviously not yet installed, but good photo showing hull.

    New ceramic tigr?


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:34 pm



    I find this picture interesting. It seems there is special thermal imager created to be installed in Tunguska complex. Considering, that army units receive modernized Tunguskas, maybe they also have those TI installed inside their optical sight, what will enable their missile and gun work in optical mode day and night and in all weather. I wonder, if they also modify tracking radar to guide missile in radar mode. Krizanthema could track target and guide missile all in one radar antenna, so maybe Tunguska could use the same princip.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:28 pm

    AFAIK both the Tunguska and the Krisantema use command guided missiles with the command guidance coming from the tracking radar that tracks both the target and the outgoing missile and sends course corrections to the outgoing missile to ensure a hit.

    If that is the case then the addition of a thermal imager should allow the vehicle to engage targets without the use of either the search or tracking function with the thermal sight with autotracker following the target and the outgoing missile with course guidance commands being transmitted by the tracking radar that is not tracking either the missile or the target and therefore not making itself much of an ARM target.

    Note the Krisantema also has a back up laser beam riding guidance option.


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:30 am

    Original Tunguska could use missiles only in optical mode using its tracking radar for radio missile guidance, while target was tracked with optical sight. Radar mode was used only for guns. Usual systems of that times use two antennas, one for tracking radar and second for radio missile guidance. Krizanthema was first to have one antenna for both operation to ensure ACLOS in radar mode. Of course, Krizanthema also have optical mode with laser guidance, but it is independent and could ensure the guidance of second missile simultaneously. I think same capabilities have Arbalet radar in Ka-52.

    Installing TI in Tunguska's optical sight will give to missile capabilities 24 hours operational capabilities and to guns full capabilities in both modes. Modernization of radar to ACLOS mode for missiles will give Tunguska full capabilities with both missiles and guns.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:27 pm

    Early model (8km range missiles) Tunguska used optical guidance for missiles, but the naval Kashtan version was changed to allow radar guidance with tracking of both missiles and target using the tracking radar with the tracking radar sending course commands to the outgoing missile.

    This change was applied to both Pantsir (which didn't enter service) with 12km range missiles and the Tunguska-M1 which entered service in 2004 with 10km range missiles AFAIK.

    Current Pantsir-S1 uses tracking radar to track missiles and targets and send guidance commands.


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:43 pm

    Tunguska and Krizanthema don't have PESA radars, but mechanical ones. Pantsir also have additional guidance channel antenna on its tracking radar.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:32 pm

    Tunguska and Krizanthema don't have PESA radars, but mechanical ones.

    They don't need PESA or AESA radars to track targets... especially two targets they are trying to merge by controlling the flightpath of one.

    Pantsir also have additional guidance channel antenna on its tracking radar.

    Indeed they do and that is how they use their tracking radar to communicate with the missile... Smile 


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:02 pm

    Indeed they do and that is how they use their tracking radar to communicate with the missile... Smile

    Tunguskas tracking radar track target when it use its guns or send guiding signals to missile. In usual SAM complex tracking radar does three functions, track target, track missile and sent guiding commands to missile. Usually they have additional antenny for missile guiding channel. Krizanthema use only one radar antenna for all three functions in ACLOS mode. Krizanthema radar is the way for Tunguska tracking radar modernization.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:58 pm

    Krizanthema radar is the way for Tunguska tracking radar modernization.

    Pantsir-S1 is the way for Tunguska modernisation...


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:07 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Krizanthema radar is the way for Tunguska tracking radar modernization.

    Pantsir-S1 is the way for Tunguska modernisation...

    Of course it is. But to keep modernization cheap and keep its original radar, they could just modernize its computers in the way of Krizanthema radar. It's better to build new Pantsirs than place Pantsir's radars on used Tunguskas.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:17 am

    Tunguskas tracking radar track target when it use its guns or send guiding signals to missile. In usual SAM complex tracking radar does three functions, track target, track missile and sent guiding commands to missile.

    [quote] Usually they have additional antenny for missile guiding channel.[quote]

    They usually use a different antenna for sending missile guidance commands because of the frequencies involved and the requirements of the signal.

    The current radars associated with Tunguska and Pantsir-S1 are optimised for very specific goals... high accuracy, good range in a range of weather conditions, and capability against very small targets at extended ranges. You can see the size of the antenna on the vehicles for good resolution returns. the simple cheap datalink antenna are in comparison direct links optimised for high speed.

    Krizanthema use only one radar antenna for all three functions in ACLOS mode. Krizanthema radar is the way for Tunguska tracking radar modernization.

    Krisantema is more like a fighter aircrafts radar that will scan specific areas looking for targets and then engage them... often in groups at a time. It will likely move from cover to cover and generally try to move to positions where it can see targets from max range... in many ways it is more of a long range anti tank gun platform than an air defence system... of course if they can upgrade its performance the way the Kornet-EM has been upgraded then it might become quite a formidible anti armour and anti aircraft system with cheap command guided/laser beam riding missiles.


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    V-SHORAD Systems Thread:

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:19 pm

    There has been a fair bit of discussion about Sosna and related air defense systems under the "Ground Forces Photos and News" thread. I thought it would be appropriate to move that discussion to a new thread started for the purpose of discussing these systems.

    While Sosna and related air defense systems are intended for use by various branches of the armed forces, I thought creating this topic under the "Russian Army" section would still be acceptable.

    To continue with this post I will incorporate my last post from the other thread here.

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Asf wrote:
    The fact that some versions of Sosna can be mounted on an MT-LB based chasis doesn't mean that it is a Strela-10 follow-on.
    It has similar tactical purpose
    I think Sosna is primarily a ZU-23-2 follow-on.
    What do you mean? ZU-23-2 is a towed AA autocannon
    the radio control for the first stage of the missile
    I always thought Sosna is laser-guided

    GarryB wrote:
    The fact that some versions of Sosna can be mounted on an MT-LB based chasis doesn't mean that it is a Strela-10 follow-on. There are other systems developed as Strela-10 follow-ons.

    I think Sosna is primarily a ZU-23-2 follow-on.

    The VDV announced the Strela-10 was a temporary replacement for the ZU-23-2, but that a new system was going to replace it in the near future. I suspect the SOSNA-R is that replacement because figures given match SOSNA-R better than Morfei or other systems known to be in development. 10km range and laser beam riding guidance were two parameters that seem to rule out the IIR guided Morfei.

    There are two reasons for that conclusion: the MT-LB based chassis and the radio control for the first stage of the missile. It seems that the non-export versions of Sosna don't need the radio control for the first stage control.

    I would suggest all versions of SOSNA-R would require radio command guidance for the initial portion of flight to get it heading in the right direction... the laser beam riding guidance wont be able to see through the booster stage in the first second or two of flight, while radio command would allow a slightly lofted trajectory to ensure the missile flys clear of ground obstructions like trees but as the main booster burns out the radio command link would allow the launcher to command the missile to climb or descend so the laser beam is not seen by the missile through the smoke trail the main booster has just left.

    It has similar tactical purpose

    And cheaper and light weight without all those CM and MMW radar systems of Pantsir-S1.

    I always thought Sosna is laser-guided

    Yes... laser beam riding, but for the first part of its flight it has a solid rocket booster and a large rocket plume between it and the launcher, so for that part of flight it uses radio command guidance to fly to the optimum point to engage the target.

    GarryB wrote:
    There are two reasons for that conclusion: the MT-LB based chassis and the radio control for the first stage of the missile. It seems that the non-export versions of Sosna don't need the radio control for the first stage control.

    I would suggest all versions of SOSNA-R would require radio command guidance for the initial portion of flight to get it heading in the right direction... the laser beam riding guidance wont be able to see through the booster stage in the first second or two of flight, while radio command would allow a slightly lofted trajectory to ensure the missile flys clear of ground obstructions like trees but as the main booster burns out the radio command link would allow the launcher to command the missile to climb or descend so the laser beam is not seen by the missile through the smoke trail the main booster has just left.

    I will try to do a "proper" post on the technical and tactical aspects of Sosna, but for the time being, let me expediently clarify something here before it gets too late:

    When I mentioned that the first stage of the nonexportable versions of the "laser navigational guided" versions of Sosna-R don't use radio command guidance, I wasn't implying that their first stage guidance used laser beam-riding guidance or were unguided.

    The first stage of the nonexportable versions of the "laser navigational guided" versions of Sosna-R are, of course, guided. I'll talk about this more when I attempt to write a "proper" post on this subject.

    Also, even the second stages of the laser guided Sosna-R variants most probably don't use laser beam-riding but use the more complicated "laser navigational guidance".

    Here is the second part of my appraisal of Sosna which is based on whatever data that is available to me.

    Sosna is, of course, related to the non-exportable Palash and the exportable Pal'ma. All of the exportable systems that I have seen, e.g., the Vietnamese ones, have the radio command guidance package. The non-exportable ones don't have that package.

    My explanation is that the non-exportable missiles have a very fast-burning and high-impulse motor that is not exportable. This motor would provide for a 400 g (4000 m/s^2) acceleration of the missile and would burn for, let's say, half a second, giving the missile a burnout speed of 2000 m/s. The burnout would occur at a distance of only 500 m.

    The first stage burn would be a guided one; in this kind of design and for these level of performance requirements you need that. Some versions of the non-exportable missiles would only be guided using an inexpensive MEMS-based INS during the first stage burn, so the first stage guidance would not be a terminal form of guidance, which is all nice and good for such a high performance design.

    One aspect that may corroborate all of this is the interstages used in the missile designs; they look strange. I think those interstages have special features that allow speedy and clean separation of the stages; this aspect is very important for the high-performance design that we are talking about. Due to all these features, the minimum range would be short.

    The exportable missiles, like 9M340Eh, don't have the very fast-burning, high-impulse motors; so not only they are not of as high a performance level but they also "need" terminal guidance during their first stage burn, hence the use of radio command for that.

    The remaining parts of this story may follow.

    Here is the "third" part of my assessment of Sosna.

    Here is an image of 9M337 missile used by Sosna/Palash family. Please note the interstage I was referring to.



    The "fourth" part of this assessment would hopefully follow.

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    Sosna, Palash, Pal'ma, and Related Systems

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:47 am

    I made an assertion to the effect that Sosna is primarily a ZU-23-2 follow-on.

    To clarify the situation, I am going to make a “partial” list of the “standard” role played by ZU-23-2 in the Russian armed forces. In general the “standard” role played by ZU-23-2 in the ground mechanized troops (tank and mechanized infantry) have consisted of AA defense in the artillery brigades and in the long-range SAM (e.g., Krug and S-300V) brigades.

    A battery of 8 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to 2S5 based SP gun brigades subordinated to the operational command, formerly subordinated to the armies and the fronts

    A battery of 8 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to 2A36 based gun brigades subordinated to the operational command, formerly subordinated to the armies and the artillery divisions

    A battery of 8 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to 2S7 based heavy SP gun brigades subordinated to the operational command, formerly subordinated to the fronts

    A battery of 8 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to 2S4 based heavy SP mortar brigades subordinated to the operational command, formerly subordinated to the fronts

    A battery of 6 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to Uragan based MRL brigades subordinated to the operational command, formerly subordinated to the artillery divisions and the fronts

    A battery of 6 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to Smerch based MRL brigades subordinated to the operational command, formerly subordinated to the artillery divisions and the fronts

    In general a battery of 8 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to artillery brigades

    A battery of 8 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to each of the three SAM battalions in each Krug based SAM brigade subordinated to the operational command, formerly subordinated to the armies, to the fronts, and to the air defense divisions

    A section of 2 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to the headquarters and each of the three SAM batteries of each of the three SAM battalions in each Krug based SAM brigade subordinated to the operational command, formerly subordinated to the armies, to the fronts, and to the air defense divisions

    A battery of 8 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to each of the three or four SAM battalions in each S-300V based SAM brigade subordinated to the operational command, formerly subordinated to the armies and the fronts

    A section of 2 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to the headquarters and each of the three SAM batteries of each of the three or four SAM battalions in each Krug based SAM brigade subordinated to the operational command, formerly subordinated to the armies and the fronts

    A battery of 8 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to some of the early warning battalions subordinated to the operational command, formerly subordinated to the armies, to the fronts, and to the early warning regiments/brigades

    A battery of 6 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to separate light airborne infantry brigades

    A battery of 6 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to each of the three BMD based airborne infantry brigades of a BMD based airborne infantry division with three additional batteries of 6 X ZU-23-2 AA guns, each, organic to the air defense battalion of the division

    A battery of 6 X ZU-23-2 AA guns organic to the air assault brigade of a naval infantry division

    The "fifth" part of this assessment will hopefully follow.


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:32 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Asf on Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:03 am

     naval airborne infantry division

    What?  Smile  There is no such a thing

    I doubt ZU-23-2 were in AA troops outside VDV units for a long time, and in VDV it were more on fire support role than for real AA defence. May be your source isn't correct (or very outdated as Krug is very old AA complex) and it should be ZSU-23-4 instead ZU-23-2? ZSU-23-4 battaries is replaced with Tunguslka in the Ground Forces, for example. And I'm pretty sure there are no ZU-23-2 in the ground forces brigades (regiments, divisions) at all - only manpads, shilkas and self-propelled stelas for close-range AA defence - for at least 40 years

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:05 pm

    The SA-13 has replaced the ZU-23-2 in VDV units, which they said was a temporary measure because the MTLB chassis cannot be air dropped properly, so the final replacement vehicle/SAM system will be different and I would assume SOSNA-R based.

    Of course it could be Morfei based too.


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Asf on Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:13 pm

    The SA-13 has replaced the ZU-23-2 in VDV units

    They still use it with BTR-D Skrezhet, for example, because VDV like it as an air-droppable infantry support gun, not in AA battaries may be.


    so the final replacement vehicle/SAM system will be different and I would assume SOSNA-R based.

    See no obstacles to put Sosna on BTR-D chassis, for example, as it very light.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:The SA-13 has replaced the ZU-23-2 in VDV units, which they said was a temporary measure because the MTLB chassis cannot be air dropped properly, so the final replacement vehicle/SAM system will be different and I would assume SOSNA-R based.

    Of course it could be Morfei based too.

    I'm very skeptical about air dropping of vertical missile launcher of Morphei. Also it will be difficult to place it inside BMD vehicle. Sosna will be more acceptable for air dropping and easier to install on BMD. But they will have to make strong missile arms / launchers, that missiles will not be damaged in case of hard landing. Other option is to modify naval Gibka complex to install it on BMD and armed it with Verba missiles.

    But even ZU-23-2 could be still useful for VDV if they modernize it to ZU-23M1 with thermal imager, laser range finder, ballistic computer, stabilization and missile launcher for Igla-S missiles. Integrated in VDV C4I they could be still effective.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:38 am

    Asf wrote:
     naval airborne infantry division

    What?  Smile  There is no such a thing

    Of course, "assult" was a typo, and "airborne" was a C&P error; I have already corrected my last post.

    I'll come back to this topic when I can, but I hope the readers get what I am trying to get at with respect to the tactical/technical requirements of a ZU-23-2 replacement, and also with respect to related topics.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:49 pm

    The VDV certainly liked the fire power of the ZU-23-2, and I think westerners don't appreciate the Soviet/Russian use of such weapons in the ground support role as well as anti aircraft use.

    Part of the role of the BMPT was to prevent Shilkas and Tunguskas getting shot up while supporting infantry against ground targets...

    The BTR-40 with its 14.5mm HMGs was a fully multirole ground to air and ground to ground vehicle... but later models like ZSU-23-4 and Tunguska have become very expensive with lots of fragile bits on them... I would imagine a return to a 57mm autocannon with guided shells might be useful in the ground support role again.

    See no obstacles to put Sosna on BTR-D chassis, for example, as it very light.

    Also cheap and should be effective and more capable than the systems it replaces...

    I'm very skeptical about air dropping of vertical missile launcher of Morphei.

    Morfei is a relatively small missile... and packed in a vertical launch tube should be fairly robust. A roof mounted optical detection system with laser rangefinder... a driver and commander and gunner... an engine... and a block of ready to launch tubes. It wouldn't even need a turret... no search or tracking radar... the missile is lock after launch so you launch it and direct it towards the target given to you by another platform or detected by onboard optics and it looks for targets as it flys towards and interception point... a two way datalink would allow the operator to change targets if a higher threat appeared or if it was having trouble finding its target.

    Other option is to modify naval Gibka complex to install it on BMD and armed it with Verba missiles.

    That is what makes linebacker weak... most attack helos can attack from outside 6km range... with SOSNA-R the attack helo needs missiles that can reach more than 10km to kill it. from a safe distance...

    But even ZU-23-2 could be still useful for VDV if they modernize it to ZU-23M1 with thermal imager, laser range finder, ballistic computer, stabilization and missile launcher for Igla-S missiles. Integrated in VDV C4I they could be still effective.

    They were handy because they were cheap and light and could be used against ground forces...

    Mount the above photo of the SOSNA-R launcher on an MLTB on a BTR-D and add a 23mm gatling for short range defence from air and ground targets. AFAIK SOSNA-R can be used against ground targets... though it is not an anti tank weapon.


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:Morfei is a relatively small missile... and packed in a vertical launch tube should be fairly robust. A roof mounted optical detection system with laser rangefinder... a driver and commander and gunner... an engine... and a block of ready to launch tubes. It wouldn't even need a turret... no search or tracking radar... the missile is lock after launch so you launch it and direct it towards the target given to you by another platform or detected by onboard optics and it looks for targets as it flys towards and interception point... a two way datalink would allow the operator to change targets if a higher threat appeared or if it was having trouble finding its target.

    The problem with vertically launched missiles is, that their rocket engines are bottom and with hard landing they could be damaged or even ignited, what could be quite dangerous for the crew inside.


    GarryB wrote:Mount the above photo of the SOSNA-R launcher on an MLTB on a BTR-D and add a 23mm gatling for short range defence from air and ground targets. AFAIK SOSNA-R can be used against ground targets... though it is not an anti tank weapon.

    Agree, they could replace a pack of 6 Sosna-R missiles on one side with a gun to get an effective gun-missile complex. FCS is the same as in Palash, so there will be no problem to operate a gun.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:53 pm

    The problem with vertically launched missiles is, that their rocket engines are bottom and with hard landing they could be damaged or even ignited, what could be quite dangerous for the crew inside.

    I would expect these missiles to be rather smaller than R-73 sized (ie 110kgs)... in fact I would suspect they will be R-60MK sized or even smaller (43kgs or less).

    If their parachute fail and or there rocket landing system fails then there might be some damage, but these missiles will be high acceleration weapons packed in vertical launch protective cases with cold launch packages below them in the tube.

    If it is not safe to drop them by parachute then the BMD-1s with 73mm ammo would be very dangerous too. And the BMP-4 with a 100mm gun would also be a serious risk.

    Agree, they could replace a pack of 6 Sosna-R missiles on one side with a gun to get an effective gun-missile complex. FCS is the same as in Palash, so there will be no problem to operate a gun.

    A gatling gun on one side would be unbalanced... perhaps two twin barrel 23mm gun like those fitted to late model Hinds in chin turrets... one on each side and 6 missiles outside of that on each side... Smile


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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The problem with vertically launched missiles is, that their rocket engines are bottom and with hard landing they could be damaged or even ignited, what could be quite dangerous for the crew inside.

    I would expect these missiles to be rather smaller than R-73 sized (ie 110kgs)... in fact I would suspect they will be R-60MK sized or even smaller (43kgs or less).

    If their parachute fail and or there rocket landing system fails then there might be some damage, but these missiles will be high acceleration weapons packed in vertical launch protective cases with cold launch packages below them in the tube.

    If it is not safe to drop them by parachute then the BMD-1s with 73mm ammo would be very dangerous too. And the BMP-4 with a 100mm gun would also be a serious risk.

    Agree, they could replace a pack of 6 Sosna-R missiles on one side with a gun to get an effective gun-missile complex. FCS is the same as in Palash, so there will be no problem to operate a gun.

    A gatling gun on one side would be unbalanced... perhaps two twin barrel 23mm gun like those fitted to late model Hinds in chin turrets... one on each side and 6 missiles outside of that on each side...  Smile

    The picture of the towed Sosna-R that I had attached above is a version of Sosna with a twin-barrel 30 mm gun and 4 missiles which is a direct replacement for ZU-23-2.

    Another direct replacement for ZU-23-2 is the original towed gun-only Sosna-A (with only a twin barrel 30 mm gun and no missiles).

    I know I am not continuing with my posts in an organized manner, but for whatever it's worth, I should mention that Russia is obviously not going to introduce any new systems that use the 23X152B rounds used by ZSU-23-4 and ZU-23-2. This round is going to get retired.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:15 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The picture of the towed Sosna-R that I had attached above is a version of Sosna with a twin-barrel 30 mm gun and 4 missiles which is a direct replacement for ZU-23-2.

    Another direct replacement for ZU-23-2 is the original towed gun-only Sosna-A (with only a twin barrel 30 mm gun and no missiles).

    I think they talk about this towed Sosna gun/missile complex in nineties, but there are no words about it for very long time, so it is well possible, that this complex is canceled.



    GarryB wrote:A gatling gun on one side would be unbalanced... perhaps two twin barrel 23mm gun like those fitted to late model Hinds in chin turrets... one on each side and 6 missiles outside of that on each side... Smile

    With 2 twin barrel GSh-23 and 2 x 6 missiles, it could be too heavy for VDV use, but maybe 2 GSH-23 + 4 or 8 ( 2 x 2 or 2 x 4) missiles. It will be still very potent complex for VDV as well as for naval infantry.

    I think Sosna-M could look great on Kamaz-63969 Typhoon for light brigades.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:23 am

    The picture of the towed Sosna-R that I had attached above is a version of Sosna with a twin-barrel 30 mm gun and 4 missiles which is a direct replacement for ZU-23-2.

    It has been marketed as a replacement, which is not to say it will be selected.

    They have upgraded the trailer...:

    I know I am not continuing with my posts in an organized manner, but for whatever it's worth, I should mention that Russia is obviously not going to introduce any new systems that use the 23X152B rounds used by ZSU-23-4 and ZU-23-2. This round is going to get retired.

    I agree, but what are they going to do with the 14.5m HMGs?

    One option would be to keep them for APCs and light vehicles, but another option could be to rebarrel them to 23mm calibre and use the 23 x 115mm round used on the Mi-35M, which is a similar length to the 14.5mm HMG round but has a larger calibre for more HE weight.

    A dual belt feed model of the KPV/KPB would allow HE rounds and AP rounds to be separated. With modern external mounts and aiming systems they could develop APFSDS rounds with rather decent if not exceptional performance in such a round so dual feed would offer compact powerful weapons with decent AP and HE performance in a low recoil compact weapon and compact ammo.

    I think they talk about this towed Sosna gun/missile complex in nineties, but there are no words about it for very long time, so it is well possible, that this complex is canceled.

    The towed mount shown in the photo above is slightly different.. with a more solid base. It would certainly offer a serious improvement for air defence forces in the VDV as the 10km range for SOSNA-R would be a large improvement over Strela-10M and any MANPADS. The maiin question would be do you go with the 30mm twin barrel cannon or go for double the missile load instead?

    If 57mm guided shells can hit targets 16km away then the 2A38M twin barrel cannon might be a dead end... withdrawing it and the 23 x 152mm rounds from the ZU-23 weapons and replacing the 14.5 x 114mm HMG rounds with the 23 x 115m rounds used on helos (Hind) they might be able to replace the 30mm all together on the ground.. the Hokum and Havoc will use it of course, as will the Su-25SM3.

    Perhaps a smaller lighter 23mm twin barrel gun for the helos and a 57mm gun for the Frogfoot and 23mm guns replacing 14.5mm... both a single barrel for coaxial use with heavier guns like 125mm or 120mm, and twin barrel for short range firepower vehicles like BMPT, while single barrel for APCs and commanders cupola guns... with IFVs armed with high velocity 57mm guns and ATGMs and air defence vehicles with 57mm guns and anti aircraft missiles...

    With 2 twin barrel GSh-23 and 2 x 6 missiles, it could be too heavy for VDV use, but maybe 2 GSH-23 + 4 or 8 ( 2 x 2 or 2 x 4) missiles. It will be still very potent complex for VDV as well as for naval infantry.

    GSh-23L is lighter than the four barrel 50 cal on the Hind... at 50.5kg each you could fit two guns for the weight of the twin 30mm cannon on the Hind or Su-25... which are light guns too.

    Most importantly the low velocity means moderate recoil and larger ammo capacity.

    If you think 50kgs per gun is too heavy a modified 14.5mm KPV HMG called KPB has been adapted to 23 x 115mm AFAIK and would weigh half as much again...

    I think Sosna-M could look great on Kamaz-63969 Typhoon for light brigades.

    It would be a very cheap but very potent weapon...


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

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