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    V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

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    GarryB
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    V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:11 am

    The company that designed the Palma CIWS for the Russian Navy and also created a new turret for Russian navy PT-76s that replaced the manually loaded 76.2mm gun with an automatic 57mm gun based on the S-60 towed anti aircraft gun is currently working on a new vehicle to replace the Tunguska.
    The issue they are trying to address is the low number of guided missiles the Tunguska can carry so it can't be overwhelmed with pure numbers.
    The solution is to use a 57mm automatic main gun firing at a modest rate of about 2 shells per second, but firing special guided shells.
    The fire control system will aim the shells to fly to an interception point and the shells will manouver to hit a manouvering target.
    It is laser homing using optical detection and tracking to find and attack targets with another platform potentially using radar and passing early warning data to the gun armed vehicles.
    The guided shell uses a reduced propellent charge which gives more volume within the shell for a longer projectile with fins and wings to enable it to manouver to hit the target.
    The reduced charge means the projectile travels at about 700m/s instead of the usual for the 57mm shell of about 1,000m/s, but it is still rather rapid for a guided gun fired round.
    Max range is expected to be about 8km, which is shorter than the Tunguska in service with 10km range missiles or the new missiles for Pantsir that can hit targets at 18-20km, but the capacity of the magazine of the new vehicle could be up to 100 shells with a mix (in my personal opinion) of perhaps 60 guided shells plus 40 unguided shells for shorter range aircraft engagements and anti armour use.

    For more info:

    http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kbtochmash.ru%2Fpress-centre%2Farticles%2Farticles_2.html&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate
    is a babelfish translation, and :

    http://www.kbtochmash.ru/press-centre/articles/articles_2.html

    for original Russian.


    Last edited by GarryB on Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:57 am; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:09 am

    The replacement for Tunguska is the Panstyr.

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    V-SHORAD Systems (Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R)

    Post  Austin on Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:04 pm

    Didnt knew where to put this question but

    Is there any new replacement for the handheld Igla-S under development or on the drawing board ?

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:37 am

    The Verba MANPADS,whose missile carries a 3-waveband optical homer,is to oust all variants of the Strela-2 and Igla MANPADS. Unlike its predecessors,the Verba's range,altitude and speed have increased by 20,30 and 20 per cent respectively to 0.5 –5.4km,0.01 –4.5 km and 500 m/s respectively. Its reaction time is within 8 s,and its warhead has gained 1.5 kg more weight – an increase of 20 per cent.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:38 am

    Also another new SAM:

    The Bagulnik SAM system will replace the Strela-10 SAM system.Its laser-guided missile is believed to be able to kill threats travelling at a speed of 700 m/s at a range of 1 –10 km and at an altitude of 0.01-5 km.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:15 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The Verba MANPADS,whose missile carries a 3-waveband optical homer,is to oust all variants of the Strela-2 and Igla MANPADS. Unlike its predecessors,the Verba's range,altitude and speed have increased by 20,30 and 20 per cent respectively to 0.5 –5.4km,0.01 –4.5 km and 500 m/s respectively. Its reaction time is within 8 s,and its warhead has gained 1.5 kg more weight – an increase of 20 per cent.

    Didnt knew about this, what is this 3-waveband homer , I know that Igla has 2 IR channels.

    The speed of Mach 1.5 isnt it too less to intercept a fighter ?

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:44 pm

    GarryB wrote:Also another new SAM:

    The Bagulnik SAM system will replace the Strela-10 SAM system.Its laser-guided missile is believed to be able to kill threats travelling at a speed of 700 m/s at a range of 1 –10 km and at an altitude of 0.01-5 km.

    How does a laser guided Surface to Air missile works ? Does the laser needs to be constantly pointed at the aircraft in motion or is this something else ?

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:17 am

    Didnt knew about this, what is this 3-waveband homer , I know that Igla has 2 IR channels.

    Very old IR seeking missiles like Strela (SA-7) don't see images, they see hot points.
    When you locked an old SA-7 you pointed it at the target aircraft (hopefully its hot engine exhaust) and pulled the trigger to get it to look in a narrow field of view. If you kept the target in the centre of view it will spot the hottest part of the engine as a hot point and get a lock. As long as there were not other hot things in its field of view when you fired the missile it would guide and hit the target. Problem was that if the target passed in front of the sun or deployed a hot flare the missile would see a hotter point of energy and home in on that.
    Many things were tried including filters where the second hottest thing the missile could see was locked on to so when the missile was fired all the flares were ignored because they were much hotter than the engine nozzle. So flares were developed that generated different temperatures and were released in bunches to make a pattern of hot spots like a real aircraft.
    The two colour seeker means that an IR seeker could see in infra red or heat range of EM energy and it could also see in the UV or ultra violet range... engines and hot parts on aircraft don't give off UV so a flare that is hot enough will be rejected because it gives off UV light as well.
    Three colour means another frequency is added to make it harder to distract or fool.


    The speed of Mach 1.5 isnt it too less to intercept a fighter ?

    MANPADS are designed for soldiers to use and can only hit targets below about 3,000m. It is very unlikely that a target aircraft will be supersonic at those altitudes that will be troubling that soldier... a helo or CAS and now UAV and UCAV is now a more likely target and they are not fast.

    How does a laser guided Surface to Air missile works ? Does the laser needs to be constantly pointed at the aircraft in motion or is this something else ?

    Not 100% sure because I have not seen this particular missile, but most Russian ground launched missiles that use laser guidance are beam riders, like SOSNA-R, KORNET, and the various tank gun fired missiles.
    Because the platform aims the beam at the target it is less likely to be distracted by jamming or decoys. Auto trackers are widely used that can follow most targets with ease and are not effected by return fire or nerves and not effected by the individual skill of the operator. Because the missile looks back at the launch platform with its seeker it is actually quite difficult to jam. A laser pointed at target needs to be quite powerful if the missile is to find the laser spot on the target. For a 10km range engagement the laser is travelling 20km and the seeker has to spot the reflected laser energy through smoke and fog and even rain and other atmospheric conditions. Even painting the target black makes it harder to lase.
    Having a beam rider limits the target marker to the launch platform where as laser homing could have another platform marking the target (even a UAV close to the target), but because the seeker looks directly into the launch platforms laser beam the laser can be 4 orders of magnitude less powerful... ie 10,000 times less powerful and the target might not even detect the beam.
    The missile itself will likely have a very high speed booster rocket and will probably fly at more than 1km per second for most of its flight.
    Basically the missile will look back at the launch platform in flight and detect its position in the beam. It will then manouver in flight to centre itself and simply maintain its position in the centre of the beam. As the beam moves to follow the target the missile will manouver to remain in the centre of the beam till impact or the proximity fuse is initiated.
    A smart system might even offset the beam so the target is not actually illuminated with the beam till a second before impact when the beam will be aimed at the target point.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  Austin on Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:58 am

    GarryB wrote:Very old IR seeking missiles like Strela (SA-7) don't see images, they see hot points.
    When you locked an old SA-7 you pointed it at the target aircraft (hopefully its hot engine exhaust) and pulled the trigger to get it to look in a narrow field of view. If you kept the target in the centre of view it will spot the hottest part of the engine as a hot point and get a lock. As long as there were not other hot things in its field of view when you fired the missile it would guide and hit the target. Problem was that if the target passed in front of the sun or deployed a hot flare the missile would see a hotter point of energy and home in on that.
    Many things were tried including filters where the second hottest thing the missile could see was locked on to so when the missile was fired all the flares were ignored because they were much hotter than the engine nozzle. So flares were developed that generated different temperatures and were released in bunches to make a pattern of hot spots like a real aircraft.
    The two colour seeker means that an IR seeker could see in infra red or heat range of EM energy and it could also see in the UV or ultra violet range... engines and hot parts on aircraft don't give off UV so a flare that is hot enough will be rejected because it gives off UV light as well.
    Three colour means another frequency is added to make it harder to distract or fool.

    Nice Explanation Thanks

    The 3 color Seeker could be 2 IR + 1 UV , the 2 IR seeker is also labeled as IIR seeker.

    The latest shortrange AAM RVV-MD has 2 color IR seeker ( IIR )

    http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/566/

    MANPADS are designed for soldiers to use and can only hit targets below about 3,000m. It is very unlikely that a target aircraft will be supersonic at those altitudes that will be troubling that soldier... a helo or CAS and now UAV and UCAV is now a more likely target and they are not fast.

    Target aircraft can be supersonic or it could be low flying supersonic cruise missile like brahmos ,but I guess a person on MANPADS will hardly be able to track a supersonic low flying aircraft , it will probably zoom past before he can lock and launch from this manpads.


    Not 100% sure because I have not seen this particular missile, but most Russian ground launched missiles that use laser guidance are beam riders, like SOSNA-R, KORNET, and the various tank gun fired missiles.
    Because the platform aims the beam at the target it is less likely to be distracted by jamming or decoys. Auto trackers are widely used that can follow most targets with ease and are not effected by return fire or nerves and not effected by the individual skill of the operator. Because the missile looks back at the launch platform with its seeker it is actually quite difficult to jam. A laser pointed at target needs to be quite powerful if the missile is to find the laser spot on the target. For a 10km range engagement the laser is travelling 20km and the seeker has to spot the reflected laser energy through smoke and fog and even rain and other atmospheric conditions. Even painting the target black makes it harder to lase.
    Having a beam rider limits the target marker to the launch platform where as laser homing could have another platform marking the target (even a UAV close to the target), but because the seeker looks directly into the launch platforms laser beam the laser can be 4 orders of magnitude less powerful... ie 10,000 times less powerful and the target might not even detect the beam.
    The missile itself will likely have a very high speed booster rocket and will probably fly at more than 1km per second for most of its flight.
    Basically the missile will look back at the launch platform in flight and detect its position in the beam. It will then manouver in flight to centre itself and simply maintain its position in the centre of the beam. As the beam moves to follow the target the missile will manouver to remain in the centre of the beam till impact or the proximity fuse is initiated.
    A smart system might even offset the beam so the target is not actually illuminated with the beam till a second before impact when the beam will be aimed at the target point.

    I think aircraft have Laser Warning Receiver so an lasing of the aircraft should trigger a warning and perhaps some countermeasures.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:04 am

    Target aircraft can be supersonic or it could be low flying supersonic cruise missile like brahmos ,but I guess a person on MANPADS will hardly be able to track a supersonic low flying aircraft , it will probably zoom past before he can lock and launch from this manpads.

    Below 3,000m altitude no manned aircraft flys faster than about 350m/s, and most will fly slower with ordinance. Brahmos is an exception in this regard and will not be too vulnerable to MANPADS in the sense that the MANPADS user will not likely see its approach in time to do anything and after it is past its speed will make it a pointless target. Cued with information from other sources they might have a chance at a crossing shot, but unlikely in my opinion... better to leave such targets to larger longer range SAMS.
    An aircraft at supersonic speed at low level will be in full AB and receeding at 350m/s or so, so a tail shot is possible and the MANPADs operator will hear the target once it has past him/her.

    I think aircraft have Laser Warning Receiver so an lasing of the aircraft should trigger a warning and perhaps some countermeasures.

    Not sure what countermeasures an aircraft can use to defeat a laser guided SAM.
    To prevent the target from detecting the laser it can be aimed above or below the target till the missile is within 1km or so and the laser then dropped or raised onto the target for the kill.
    A helo could fly behind a tree I guess, but otherwise there is not much an aircraft can do... the missiles seeker is no facing the targetted aircraft so DIRCMs wont work.

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    V-SHORAD Systems Thread

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:13 am


    How does a laser guided Surface to Air missile works ? Does the laser needs to be constantly pointed at the aircraft in motion or is this something else ?

    http://aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/q0187.shtml
    after this read this
    http://aerospaceweb.org/question/electronics/q0191.shtml

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:16 pm

    I don't think this 57 mm AA gun could be replacement for Tunguska, but more additional AAA capabilities to Tunguska. With modern FCS and data links could be very deadly to all targets in its range.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:33 am

    Well KBP certainly agree with you, the 2A72 was the original gun mounted on the Pantsir but it is replaced in the current model with the 2A38M twin barrel guns.

    I would however think that the 2A72 would be good enough for engaging some aerial targets, it uses the same rather powerful ammo as the Tunguska and the gun is fully stabilised.

    It is certainly no replacement for a dedicated air defence vehicle but having said that for a helo it would still be a significant threat.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:42 am

    The best replacement for Tunguska will be tracked Pantsir. But Tunguska could also be upgraded with modernized or new radars, that it could be capable to shot down top attack ATGMs.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:35 am

    The Pantsir was a cheap version of a Tunguska.

    The Pantsir was basically a truck or trailer mounted system with more missiles (two lots of 6 missiles instead of 2 lots of 2 on the first Tunguska (2S6) and 2 lots of 4 on the subsequent Tunguska (2S6M)) and cheaper guns (ie 2 x 2A72 single barrel 30mm cannon on the old Pantsir instead of the 2 x twin barrel 2A38M cannon of the Tunguska.

    Over time and investment and improvement in the naval version of Kashtan and Kashtan-M the performance of the missiles improved and the makers realised that further improvement was possible.
    The Russian military didn't have any funds but the United Arab Emirates did and they funded an upgrade of the Pantsir to basically double the range of the missile and refit the better 2A38M guns.
    The 2A72 is a single barrel gun used in the BMP-3. It has a long recoil mechanism that reduced the amount of smoke in the turret compared to the 2A42 30mm single barrel cannon used in the BMP-2.
    The BMP-2 normally fires its main gun at a lower 300 rpm to reduce smoke build up, but the BMP-3 doesn't have that problem.
    Both can only fire at about 500-600rpm per gun compared to the twin barrel 2A38M which fires at 2,000-2,500 rpm per gun.

    They all fire the same standardised 30 x 165mm shell.

    I suspect, despite my comments above, that the real replacement for Tunguska will be Tunguska but with the new missiles and radars etc transferred from the new Pantsir back to the Tunguska chassis.

    This new vehicle firing 57mm laser guided shells looks interesting and would be very useful against mass attacks... assuming you have plenty of laser target markers, but will most likely see service at sea first.
    A new range of modern 57mm ammo might make it a good alternative to the 100mm rifled gun and a 30mm autocannon mix as used on the BMP-3, but then the advantage of the power of the 100mm gun in terms of HE power could not be matched by a 57mm gun.
    Of course the APFSDS potential against enemy IFV of a new 57mm round should not be ignored. It is probably safe to say that a Bradley is armoured to be protected from HEAT rounds first and foremost so a new powerful APFSDS round might make western IFV need another round of armour increase which will make them more expensive to buy and operate.
    Most tanks are designed to resist the oppositions main tank guns from the front 60 degree angle, while the side needs to be resistant to the enemies main IFV round. For the Russians that means 25-30mm western guns but also some 40mm. For the West it means 30mm guns, but adding a few 57mm gun armed vehicle into the armoury will greatly increase the armour requirements.

    With a battle management system and net centric force having a range of weapons available offers flexibility. Right now the Russian forces are already more flexible because of the BMP-3... if a US commander wants heavy calibre HE direct firepower in a specific area he needs to send an Abrams. A Russian commander could send a T series tank (perhaps a T-62 considering the role) or they can send a BMP-3. A BMP-3 can direct fire a 100mm round out to about 7km where a tank will not be firing at targets much further away than that, but it also has soldiers that can protect the vehicle from anti armour threats and it has a 30mm cannon for a variety of targets. It has laser guided anti tank rounds for hard threats, but also relatively cheap 100mm shells able to deal with all sorts of targets.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:52 pm

    Pantsir is far away from cheap version of Tunguska. More missiles with longer range, PESA search and tracking radar, EO system with TV and TI is for sure more expensive and more capable than Tunguska. Tracked version of Pantsir (at least prototype, I don't know if it is in production) have different tracking radar than serial wheeled version, what mean it could not engage 4 targets simultaneously, but all other is the same. The mane difference between Pantsir and Tunguska from inside is, that crew of Pantsir is not in turret as in Tunguska. Anyone know, if Tunguska could be upgraded with radars from Pantsir or at least with EO system? Or if original Tunguska tracking radar could be upgraded, that both guns and missiles could work in radar mode.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:51 pm

    Pantsir WAS the cheap version designed to be mounted on a truck or a trailer mounted version.

    The money invested by the UAE greatly improved everything from electronics, sensors and missiles. Guns are now the same as Tunguska.
    Electronics and sensors and missiles are better.

    Anyone know, if Tunguska could be upgraded with radars from Pantsir or at least with EO system?

    I would expect the replacement for the Tunguska will be the Tunguska chassis with a turret fitted with Pantsir sensors and missiles and guns.

    Or if original Tunguska tracking radar could be upgraded, that both guns and missiles could work in radar mode.

    In service Tunguska can already use guns and missiles in radar only mode. That capability came with the naval version for Kashtan and was retro fitted to the Tunguska. The range increased from 8km to 10km and the minimum range shortened from 2.5km to 1.5km through a faster acting higher velocity booster rocket.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:00 pm

    In service Tunguska can already use guns and missiles in radar only mode. That capability came with the naval version for Kashtan and was retro fitted to the Tunguska. The range increased from 8km to 10km and the minimum range shortened from 2.5km to 1.5km through a faster acting higher velocity booster rocket.

    If I understand you correctly, Tunguska-M1 could use both missiles and guns day and night in radar mode and both missiles and guns in day by optical mode. As I know (maybe this is for older versions), Tunguska could use missiles only in optical mode,where radar was used for radio guidance to guide missile to target. Tunguska-M1 already have data link to get target data from outer source when it is passive. The only thing to improve is to add night channel in optical sight, that Tunguska-M1 could work passively in optical mode day and night. With night channel Tunguska-M1 become perfect system as capable as similar western systems (ADATS, Rappier FSC, Crotale,...)

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:05 pm

    I would expect the replacement for the Tunguska will be the Tunguska chassis with a turret fitted with Pantsir sensors and missiles and guns.

    We are talking about the same system, you just name it Tunguska with turret fitter with Pantsir sensors and missiles, I name it tracked version of Pantsir.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:54 am

    Service entry date was 31.07.2003 for TUNGUSKA-M1 anti-aircraft gun/missile system according to http://kbptula.ru/eng/kbp/rusarmy.htm

    On this page:

    http://kbptula.ru/eng/zencom/tung.htm

    Note range of the missiles... uses the new (10km range) missiles developed for KASHTAN and KASTAN-M.

    KASHTAN-M, like the TUNGUSKA-M1 adds thermal imaging channel to increase optical systems applicability by 100% (ie 24hr rather than 12hr per day).

    To quote from a description of the Tunguska-M1:
    High reliability and stability of the system during the joint use of the optical channel ad the radar channel owing to their mutually coordinated functioning, i.e., the possibility of switching from one channel to another or their joint use in the course of firing.
    Pantsir, KASHTAN-M, and TUNGUSKA are all made by KBP so it is only a matter of time before features developed for Pantsir are transferred to the other systems simply for commonality.

    Look a the pictures at the bottom of this page:

    http://kbptula.ru/eng/zencom/panz.htm

    and simply add the standard chassis of the Tunguska to the options to put that turret into.

    We are talking about the same system, you just name it Tunguska with turret fitter with Pantsir sensors and missiles, I name it tracked version of Pantsir.

    IN the trailer and truck versions of Pantsir (In other words the Pantsir versions) I believe there is a separate area for the radar operator to sit that is more spacious than the turret.
    A Tunguska version will be a bit more snug if you know what I mean?

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:56 am

    With night channel Tunguska-M1 become perfect system as capable as similar western systems (ADATS, Rappier FSC, Crotale,...)

    The radar works fine at night already, and ADATS and Rapier and Crotale don't have guns or 10km range missiles or are in service in the numbers of Tunguska.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:29 pm

    KASHTAN-M, like the TUNGUSKA-M1 adds thermal imaging channel to increase optical systems applicability by 100% (ie 24hr rather than 12hr per day).

    This is good, that Tunguska-M1 get thermal imager in its optical sight. Unfortunately I could not find any source to confirm this claim. Do you have any more data about this night clannel in Tunguska optical sight?

    The radar works fine at night already, and ADATS and Rapier and Crotale don't have guns or 10km range missiles or are in service in the numbers of Tunguska.
    [quote]

    Of course in radar mode you could work day and night and in all weather conditions. I know mentioned western SHORADs don't have guns, but they are similar in their missile range. What I have in mind, is, that with radar mode for both guns and missiles, night channel in optical sight and data link make Tunguska-M1 as capable in working in passive or active mode day and night, same effective as mentioned western SHORADs. The point is, that Tunguska is not handicapped in a way, that it could work in passive optical mode only by day and that missiles could be used only optically in day time.

    GarryB
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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:06 am

    The 10km range missiles were developed for the Kashtan system... they needed their CIWS to work at night with missiles as well as during the day.

    When the new model TUNGUSKA (the M1 model) gets that new missile it is pretty safe to assume that the missile can now be guided at night by the radar like the missile on the Kashtan... that is its purpose after all.

    According the the book I have under system features it says:

    combined missile and gun armament control radar-optical subsystem, which effects mutually coordinated tracking of targets and missiles both day and night in conditions of optical visibility.

    In other words it wont work in a monsoon at night but it will work with radar and optics day and night.

    KASHTAN-M added thermal imaging to its built in TV channel so I don't see why it couldn't have a thermal imager, though it could possible just be II.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  medo on Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:26 am

    According the the book I have under system features it says:

    combined missile and gun armament control radar-optical subsystem, which effects mutually coordinated tracking of targets and missiles both day and night in conditions of optical visibility.

    In other words it wont work in a monsoon at night but it will work with radar and optics day and night.
    [quote]

    You are quite lucky to find this book. It seems they upgrade tracking radar that it could simultaneously track a target and sending radio signals to missile to guide it to the target. For guns radar just need to track the target.

    By those words I think night channel in Tunguska-M1 optical sight is image intensifier not thermal imager, that is why they talk about optical visibility. After all 3th gen II tubes are small enough to install inside optical sight and have enough intensifying power (30.000 to 50.000x), that they could, without any problems, work in moonless nights, just starlight.

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:36 am

    For guns radar just need to track the target.

    Yes, there is a muzzle velocity measuring system on one of the barrels for both guns that consists of two coils. The other gun has a shield to prevent rounds leaving that barrel from interfering in the signal. This means that the muzzle velocity is added to the ballistic computations as the guns are fired to improve accuracy.

    Of course most people think a cannon firing at long range will hit one place but after travelling 2-3km the shell spread looks more like someone threw a bucket of water rather than a single laser beam of hits. This spread improves hit probability and makes it more effective in its role than a more accurate gun. It is the same reason that when shooting small fast moving targets that hunters prefer shotguns to rifles.

    You are quite lucky to find this book.

    It is actually getting a bit old now, it is "Russia's Arms 2004".
    They released a newer version called "Russia's Arms 2007" which I will get around to buying some time, but they have promised a "Russia's Arms 2011" that will have lots and lots of all the new stuff that is being developed and will be available soon for sale, which I am really looking forward to.

    Publishers webpage is http://www.milparade.com/

    Keep in mind it is made up of information direct from the makers so the information is not guesses, unlike western publications I used to rely on, but of course they wont detail problems or even if they are able to mass produce the item yet or not. Just lists purpose and best features... which is good enough for me. Smile

    By those words I think night channel in Tunguska-M1 optical sight is image intensifier not thermal imager, that is why they talk about optical visibility. After all 3th gen II tubes are small enough to install inside optical sight and have enough intensifying power (30.000 to 50.000x), that they could, without any problems, work in moonless nights, just starlight.

    Well, looking at the wording they used, I am inclined to agree with your logic. Of course the Russian Army on paper has lots of night vision equipment but it is really only their special forces that actually operate at night AFAIK.

    I would expect that thermal sights might be assured for the new Tunguska version with Pantsir radars and systems added. IN fact I think I have seen that model... because the Tunguska needs to fit crew inside perhaps they have moved the Thermal and optical system of Pantsir outside the turret... check out these two pictures of prototypes I found some time ago.
    One has a new search (rear) radar and a new front tracking radar plus a module on the turret roof with some sort of missile guidance transmitter and thermal and TV optics in two windows... presumably the new tracking radar could guide to one or more targets (if it is a phased array it could possibly track 2-3 targets and guide missiles towards them) plus the transmitter on the new module would allow guidance of missiles at optically tracked targets too... perhaps one at a time?
    The other picture shows a cheaper setup with the search radar (rear) replaced with a new phased array antenna and the front tracking radar removed completely and replaced with the roof module fitted to the other vehicle. This would mean that it could track and engage fewer targets, but also that it would emit much less radar waves and be less effected by jamming and ARMs. It would also be a lot cheaper with one less radar system.





    And here is a third setup that has the new search radar, the roof mounted optical/thermal module plus another system that appears optical replacing the tracking radar...



    Maybe it is a laser target marker and those missiles are SOSNA-R missiles, or perhaps it means the vehicle can use SOSNA-R and all the current missile types for Tunguska and Pantsir. The SOSNA-R missiles are supposed to be cheaper... here is a dedicated SOSNA-R vehicle:



    -Edit- Just noticed that some of the vehicles are the standard Tunguska vehicles but one is a BMP-3 chassis and the SOSNA-R system is mounted on the MT-LB.
    As far as I know the chassis for the Tunguska is made in Belarus...

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    Re: V-SHORADS [Igla, Strela-10, Tunguska, Sosna-R]

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