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    Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

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    GarryB
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:54 am

    With all the rails on it it just looks like this:

    http://world.guns.ru/assault/as106-e.htm

    but with a double capacity mag and a triangular buttstock and of course different muzzle break.

    I guess all those things like Bayonettes and underbarrel grenade launchers and existing Russian and Soviet scopes will have to be redesigned to fit the Piccatinny system.

    Maybe a GP-40 grenade launcher will be developed that can also be easily fitted to western weapons too... perhaps a redevelopment of the GP-34.

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    Russian army rifles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:21 pm

    Lots of info on this site:

    world.guns.ru

    It includes lots of information about prototype rifles that were tested and what won and lost and why.

    The balanced recoil rifles are actually not new and were tested in the competition to replace the AKM (which was eventually won by the AK-74). The balanced recoil weapons like the AEK-971 improved battlefield performance but the AK-74 was basically an AKM adapted to the new calibre and was simpler and cheaper and production capacity was available and the troops were used to operating it and maintaining it, so despite the fact that the balanced recoil rifles were better in single shot and full auto they lost and the AK-74 won.

    The last competition post cold war in the 1990s the focus was on battlefield performance accuracy and kill probability so the AN-94 won despite having totally different iron sights (peep sights) and a very complicated internal arrangement and firing method. With pulley cables and a moving barrel I would suspect they are a little more complicated than the AK-74.
    The cost and complication has meant it is really only a specialist weapon (AN-94) and the full solution is likely to be the AK-200 which was shown briefly a short while back.
    The AK-200 follows the latest trend of take the existing assault rifle and remove the iron sights and make the entire top, the bottom forearm and the sides of the forearm Picatinny rails for mounting everything everywhere.
    Just looking at the prototype they seem to have gone for the balanced recoil mechanism and Iron sights can be attached to the rail on top, with a standard AK-74 muzzle brake and folding stock and what appears to be a standard bayonet lug it should mean that Russian military companies making optics and toys for their rifles can also sell their wares without adaptation to westerners as well which should be good.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Kysusha on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:21 am

    I understand the AN94 will not be going into serial production. Production costs were identified as a major barrier. Instead, work will be conducted on the AK100 series to modernise it. Someone may have more up-to-date information on this.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:51 am

    All this talk about the AK-200 seems to suggest that the An94 will be a specialist weapon.
    With a moving barrel and pulley system with wires etc it sounds rather complicated to me, though by firing two rounds rather quickly the hit probability is probably increased by a statistically significant amount I would think it would only be issued to units with a high level of training to maintain and use it effectively.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Kysusha on Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:33 am

    GarryB wrote:All this talk about the AK-200 seems to suggest that the An94 will be a specialist weapon.
    With a moving barrel and pulley system with wires etc it sounds rather complicated to me, though by firing two rounds rather quickly the hit probability is probably increased by a statistically significant amount I would think it would only be issued to units with a high level of training to maintain and use it effectively.

    The AN94 has a phenominal cyclic rate - sure beats the "double tap" we had to do with the SLR's. However, from what I have read, the benefits of the system do not out-weigh the very high production costs and there is also the higher maintenance requirements of the more complicated system. {Soldier training, Armourer, spares inventory et al.]. The percieved benefits just don't stack up - I test fired the Ak100 series in 2001, when I was in Russia and I'd be happy enough to use it.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:21 am

    Yup, the design means that the first two rounds are fired at a cyclic rate of over 1,800rpm, but the rounds fired after the second shot are fired at a normal rate of about 600 rpm. From memory there was the option to fire 2 round bursts or 3 round bursts or single shot or full auto.
    Some on the net suggest the purpose is to increase lethality by getting two hits, or by defeating body armour by getting two bullets to go through the same hole.
    In actual fact even at very short range the bullets don't hit the same point.

    This rifle will likely put two rounds within about 10-15cm of the first round at normal battlefield ranges and is actually intended to improve hit probability by putting a second round close to the first round that if you aimed properly if the target moved the second round has a chance of hitting them.

    BTW I am seriously jealous of you getting the opportunity to fire the AK-100 series.

    From what I can deduce from the pictures released of the AK-200 it looks like they have adopted the balanced recoil system of the AK-107 and AK-108, which should greatly improve controllability when firing bursts, and the piccatinny rails all over it should be good for Russian gadget makers... they should now be able to undercut western makers and the market should get flooded with tacticrap so it will be a buyers market.
    I think the ADS looks rather cool too and hope it is adopted by the Russian Navy and VDV.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Kysusha on Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:53 am

    Yeah, basically it is hit probablity - when we were undergoing Vietnam era training we did what was called - "double tap" with the 7.62 x 51 SLR's. This involved pulling the trigger as fast as you could for two shots - starting low with your point of aim.  The concept being that the recoil lifted the second shot and as it was jungle warfare, it was hoped that one of the two would at least get through. I felt very confident with the SLR, it would get through small trees but the M16 was a piece of Cr*p. The 55gn projectile just didn't have it.

    You would be very surprised at how accurate you could be with the SLR and double tap - I used to fold down the rear leaf sight, put a white chalk line along the wooden fore-end and a white chalk line on each of the fore-sight guards. You would then use it rather like a shotgun - both eyes open and frame the target in the chalk lines - starting with a shot heading for the crotch - the second round usually hit in the chest. This was jungle-lane shooting and ranges were probably from 2 metres to 20 metres. First to fire was the winner!

    The Russian 5.45 x 39 round is very good - the 60gn Projectile has great sectional density and very good penetration. However, interestingly enough, I detect a move back to the 30 cal [or similar] like the Yanks with their 6.8mm. The Brits had it right back in the early 1950's with the .280 round, but Yank pressure forced the 30 cal option - then the 5.56mm and now finally, a move back to what the  Brits originaly suggested.  

    But you're right - hit probablity was the concept behind the very fast burst; and yes again - they don't go into the same hole!


    Last edited by George1 on Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:22 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)

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    An-94 and AK-200

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:39 am

    I had read that those soldiers that preferred the 7.62 x 39mm AKs did so because of the penetration and lack of deflection on the way to the target and that the 158 grain AK ammo was popular for its hitting power over the 122 grain bullets.

    I agree the 5.45mm bullet is a very good shape with long narrow projectiles of very low drag coefficient. I remember a US company making M16 uppers in that calibre for longer range shooting because the AK round retained velocity better and when fired from a 20 inch barrel its velocity was not that different from the 5.56 at the muzzle but it retained energy better and of course will tumble at any speed or distance to lethality is higher at longer range than the 5.56.


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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:18 am

    Had a bit of spare time and have put together a rough photoshop of what the AK-200 looked like to me.

    Now I know it isn't perfect because I made it up from several different rifle photos, but I think the basic layout is right, though the pistol grip looks too small to me as the one in the video seemed very large and might have had a bipod inside it.



    And yes I know the rifle in the video had a metal rectangular folding buttstock, but then so did the first AKS-74's.
    As you can see I have put a simple small cheap scope with a front iron sight mounted on the picatinny rail. For use without the scope a rear Iron sight would fold up or be attached.
    Expect a new 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher to be designed with picatinny attachment, which should allow NATO forces with picatinny rails all over their rifles attach and use the new GP-3x grenade launcher too. Certainly could be less cumbersome than the M203 for NATO countries.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:54 am

    Trying to be tacticool?



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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:41 pm

    Nah, I hate that tacticrap Sh!t they do to otherwise nice rifles.

    A scope and a suppressor is all you need... ie


    from:
    http://www.russiadefence.net/military-multimedia-f60/russian-military-photos-t951.htm

    This however is my impression of what the AK-200 will look like based on blurry images of stills from videos we have seen so far.

    From the vid it is clear they are adopting picatinny rails along the entire top of the rifle with a folding presumably removable front and rear iron sight.
    I think the primary standard issue sight will be some relatively cheap generic system that can have night vision added by putting a relevant optic in front of the standard issue scope.

    Goals for their future soldier program (as shown by a very nice article Austin posted a link to elsewhere on this site) their goals are to make scopes standard and not just basic ones like a red dot optic, but to have some sort of range finding capacity with some sort of ballistics mechanism so the average soldier can simple aim and fire with a very good chance of hitting the target. (See link posted by Austin... search FELIN or something.)

    The idea of adopting picatinny rails I at first rejected, but now I think it is a good idea. It means that Russian optics makers now have a western market for their products without needing adapters etc. It also means Russian soldiers can now access a much wider range of tacticrap if they want it.

    Not shown is the new double stack 60 round mag.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:23 am

    Yeah, and then all Russian guns may have the triple dot laser sight that makes Americans reminiscent about Aliens and Predators.


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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:28 pm

    I mean that Russian optics makers can now sell to western nutjobs as well as Russian nutjobs.

    I am sure the Russians can make red dot holographic sights for less than $1,000 US.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Hoof on Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:39 pm

    What ever happened to AEK-971 ? I mean, seems simple and reliable, with recoil balancing mechanism... I mean, of course ak200 is nice, but i think it would be nice to see something new... I'm not a big fan of pic rails either...

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:22 am

    Well, according to what I have read there were balanced recoil rifles in competition to replace the AKM in the 1970s.
    The balanced recoil rifles were more accurate and easier to use, but the AK-74 was cheaper and easier to make and improved accuracy and reduced recoil with an effective muzzle brake.
    The selling points were low cost and simplification of training because the AK was familiar.
    Right now the focus was on accuracy and that was why the An-94 won the last tests, but its complex and expensive design have led to a re-evaluation.

    Personally I think this AK-200 will be the last conventional AK that can be made in existing factories and will be largely similar to the previous rifles but will solve some issues. I think it will come as standard with a basic scope like the SUSAT for the SA80. I think it will have a folding stock and be covered in picatinny rails so almost anything can be attached. The double sized mag will mean fewer mag changes in combat for the penalty of a weight increase. I think it will have the balanced recoil system of the AK-107 and AK-108 so that in addition with a front pistol grip improving control recoil will be greatly reduced in single shot and burst fire.

    Different enough to be an improvement all round, but no so different to make it expensive or hard to make.

    The next assault rifle will likely be plastic case or caseless ammo, probably of 6.5-7mm calibre with 120-130 grain projectiles at fairly high velocities due to new propellents. Velocities in the 1,200-1,400mps range perhaps with plastic driving bands like on cannon shells to reduce wear and improve barrel life.

    They already have scopes developed with laser range finders and sat nav systems and ballistic computers built in so the temperature, range, elevation and angle of shot can all be worked out with the ballistic performance of the round to allow an aimpoint be illuminated in the scope to show you where your bullet will hit... place that on the targets head and fire.

    Note another development is the ADS bullpup assault rifle that can be fired underwater with special ammo that is being tested by Airborne and Naval Infantry units.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Hoof on Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:06 am

    GarryB wrote:
    They already have scopes developed with laser range finders and sat nav systems and ballistic computers built in so the temperature, range, elevation and angle of shot can all be worked out with the ballistic performance of the round to allow an aimpoint be illuminated in the scope to show you where your bullet will hit... place that on the targets head and fire.

    Note another development is the ADS bullpup assault rifle that can be fired underwater with special ammo that is being tested by Airborne and Naval Infantry units.

    It would be nice to see a bullpup design in a Russian military... Although there were several made like TKB-022 and TKB-517... also there was groza.. but for some reason non of them made it... As for Abakan- I dont think military will use them much,they are too complicated for a regular military... lots of moving components means lots of possibilities for something to go wrong...

    Now I would love to see a a bullpup with recoil mechanism...with bullpups already being light and balanced, recoil mechanism will make it even more stable during automatic fire =)

    I haven't read much about Plastic-cased rounds... but sounds like a great idea... It will lower weight of the kit a great deal..

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:11 am

    The problem I have with the AN-94 is that the barrel moves under recoil like an artillery piece. Also it has pulleys and cables inside.

    The practical result is an effective two shot burst fire mode that is probably effective, but I really think these are for highly trained units and not for the general soldier population.

    As for bullpups have a look at the write up for the ADS it is a very interesting story about how having a dedicated underwater rifle was good but required two rifles to be carried on missions.

    Their attempts at solutions can be seen in these three pages.

    They start with this:

    http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/aps-underwater-e.html

    with special ammo, and then this hybrid rifle able to fire the underwater ammo and the standard 5.45mm ammo:

    http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/asm-dt-sea-lion-e.html

    And finally they changed to a new rifle of better design with a new type of underwater ammo compatible with a standard 5.45mm magazine:

    http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ads-dvuhsredny-e.html

    The above links mention the naval infantry and naval spetsnaz are testing the ADS and I have read on Russian news websites that the VDV are testing it as well, so I presume other Russian Special forces will be looking at this rifle too.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:25 am

    BTW the plastic cartridge case rounds are based on a US development for a light machine gun that uses the lighter ammo to reduce weight.

    The weapon is called the LSAT and the ammo is cheaper and more compact than metal cased ammo but cheaper and more rugged than caseless ammo.

    For a LMG with a 200 round belt the weight of the ammo can be enormous.

    For the Russians the weight of a 100 round belt for the Pecheneg is almost 4kgs with the box... so that is half the weight of the weapon.
    If you can halve the weight of the ammo without losing performance... well even if they only do it to replace the 7.62 x 54mmR ammo that will be good for the machine gunners and the snipers... of course they will more than likely not carry less, they will carry twice as much ammo.

    here is a link:

    http://world.guns.ru/machine/usa/lsat-e.html

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:48 pm

    Now this is kickass


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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:12 am

    http://www.izhmash-arms.ru/eim/imp/36.html

    for the 7.62 x 39mm and 5.56mm versions

    US $386-571 depending on the version (one version with removable muzzle brake and unable to fire when stock is folded, cheaper model with removable MB and able to fire with folding stock folded) and of course the numbers you order... buy a huge number and get a lower price.

    Personally I like the .22LR version here:

    http://www.izhmash-arms.ru/eim/imp/191.html

    This would be fun too:

    http://www.izhmash-arms.ru/eim/imp/296.html

    But I would want more than a 10 round mag for both of them.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:36 pm

    This is a nice submachine gun PP-2000


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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:21 pm

    Blah, so no Balanced recoil, improved Iron sights and Picatinny rails, that's it?

    I agree with Garry's sentiments, just making a AK into a M4, but that's not too bad, it still retains it's reliability so basically a Russian upgraded M4.


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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:28 am

    Blah, so no Balanced recoil, improved Iron sights and Picatinny rails, that's it?

    Where did you get all that from?

    From the picture shown I would say it does have a balanced recoil system, which along with the already efficient muzzle brake and low recoil 5.45mm round would make it a very stable gun to fire in single shot, or burst fire.

    I rather suspect there will only be backup iron sights and that a small cheap scope will be fitted as standard... it will likely have a fairly low magnification for a nice wide field of view but magnifying scopes and even night vision scopes could be mounted in front of it if necessary so that the rifle wont need to be re-zeroed.

    Picatinny rails means that a Russian soldier can either use issued tacticrap, or buy his own from western and soon presumably Russian sources. It also means that there will soon be lots of Russian tacticrap to add to the existing tacticrap on the market so wannabes can drag rifles around the place covered in all sorts of rubbish.

    I agree with Garry's sentiments, just making a AK into a M4, but that's not too bad, it still retains it's reliability so basically a Russian upgraded M4.

    Not really.
    An M4 is simply a short barrel M16.
    This AK-200 is not just a short barrel AK-74.
    It introduces an improved recoil mechanism that almost eliminates recoil... which the M4 does not do.
    The AK gets its reliability because of the weight ratio between the bolt carrier and the bolt.
    This gives the bolt carrier a lot of energy to move the bolt... even when the rifle is dirty.
    This added to the felt recoil but not hugely so.
    This recoil balancing system solves that problem.
    It introduces a large capacity magazine, which the M4 does not do.
    It retains the same barrel length of the original rifle, which the M4 does not do... because the M16 is a very long rifle, while the AK-74 is not.

    At the end of the day an M4 is a short barrel assault rifle that is good to normal combat ranges but without the fragmentation effect of the long barrel 5.56mm rifles like the M16 or SA80.
    The AK-200 fires a round not dependant on terminal velocity for a lethal effect as its round is designed to tumble on impact at any speed.

    This is a low impact cosmetic update, that improves sighting improves compatibility with various extras, and improves handling, at the expense of a slight increase in complication and manufacturing costs. Handling and maintainence will not have dramatically changed.

    This is a half step weapon you introduce while you either complete or start work on something much more radical possibly involving new types of propellent, new types of ammo... etc.

    I would guess if they are moving to plastic cased ammo or caseless ammo that the first calibre they will change is the 7.62 x 54mmR calibre rifles and machine guns.

    They could possibly even have a transitional ammunition with very compact propellent with very long projectiles that reach right back to where the primer is with the rear of the projectile acting as the primer with propellent around it and fin stabilisers at the rear where the projectile narrows. Such a long projectile cannot be spun fast enough to stabilise it with rifling so a couple of plastic driving bands (or in this case slipping bands) on the body of the projectile to reduce the spin effect of the rifling so that the very long projectile can be stabilised in flight by the tail fins. The combination of heavy mass and high velocity should result in fairly long effective flight range and flat trajectory... both useful for sniper rifles and machine guns.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:07 pm

    The guy even said that Balanced recoil will require a complete redesign of the inerts which is "not affordable" in today's economy so I wouldn't think there's Balanced Recoil in the AK-200.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:51 am

    The guy even said that Balanced recoil will require a complete redesign of the inerts which is "not affordable" in today's economy so I wouldn't think there's Balanced Recoil in the AK-200.

    What guy?

    And he is full of it.

    The AK-107 and AK-108 already have balanced recoil systems and have the added advantage of burst fire modes too.

    http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ak-10710-e.html

    The Russians have been playing around with balanced recoil systems for rifles since the AKM was replaced by the AK-74.

    The AK-74 won because it was cheaper to make and simpler to train troops to use because it was just an AKM in a different calibre.

    The AN-94 won in 1994 because of its accuracy and performance despite its complication and manufacturing difficulty.

    I would suspect the AK-200 with the AK-107/108s balanced recoil system would not be as complex to make or maintain as the AN-94 yet would offer a significant improvement in performance over the AK-74 especially in a 3 round burst fire mode.
    At combat ranges a balanced recoil system and low recoil ammo and effective muzzle brake with a heavier 60 round mag would likely result in 3 round bursts putting all three rounds on or near the target unlike most other assault rifles with three round burst that put the first round in the knee, the second in the head and the third 2m above the head off into the wild blue yonder.

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