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    Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

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    IronsightSniper
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:48 pm

    I think that the Russians are maybe going to use the .338 more often for other operations outside of a contest.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:57 am

    Firstly looking at my post above I owe you an apology Austin.

    The Russians have been experimenting with a range of cartridges but they haven't previously gone in for the longer range stuff normally so this is pretty new.

    I guess I was a little disappointed that I recognised the rifle while expecting to see a brand new rifle and seeing an upgrade of an existing rifle.

    I think that the Russians are maybe going to use the .338 more often for other operations outside of a contest.

    The problem is that you have to narrow it down.

    Police snipers rarely fire on point targets at more than 300m.
    They don't fire on area targets at all.

    Russian Army snipers rarely fire on point targets at more than 600m.
    They might fire on area targets out to 1,200m but it is more harassing fire than deadly pin point fire.

    GRU Army snipers might fire on targets out to 800m but will not often use harassing fire.

    Special task snipers within other government organisations will not generally shoot at more than 800m either normally.

    12.7mm weapons used in Russia have been for use at reduced ranges (not beyond 1,000m) against enemy targets with body armour, and most other dedicated sniper ammo like the 9 x 39mm, the 12.7 x 54mm, and the 9.3 x 64mm ammo is not intended for shooting at more than 600m.

    The only shooting beyond 800m is with 12.7 x 108mm rifles for use against light vehicles or radar antenna or missiles etc.

    There was talk in the mid 1990s of adapting the SV-98 to 338 Laupa Mag, but I have not read of any progress in that area.

    Adapting the MTs-116 to this calibre is interesting because it is a calibre optimised for hitting point targets at up to 1,200m. Hitting point targets is a euphemism for shooting people.

    The Lobaev SVL is also an interesting step in that direction to longer range shooting in the .408 Chey-tac, which is a calibre optimised to be used at very long ranges... 2.2km or more.

    I can't see any of the above replacing the SVDS in infantry service, but they will likely adopt something for specialised sniper use. The SV-98 would be a good rifle, but its standard scope is unpopular, and it is considered expensive too.

    I would think foreign sniper rifles might be considered for small purchases for "teams that need the absolute best available".

    It will likely come down to cost and accuracy. The SVL is reportedly a 0.2-0.3 MOA rifle, but the fact that it is a single shot weapon and likely quite expensive will probably count against it.
    This new version of the MTs-116 is a nice step forward, with a new synthetic stock and new calibre will make it interesting as they could buy a few thousand in 338 calibre and a few thousand in 7.62 x 54mm and have the best of both worlds. A 7.62 x 54mm rifle will be effective out to 800m. A 338 laupa mag will be effective out to 1,200m and will be a gap rifle to fit between the 30 cal rifle and the 50 cal rifle. It will fit between both rifles in terms of range and weight and cost.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:22 am

    Just for clarification Austin where it says serial production starting this year... do they mean the Russian 338 calibre ammo or the rifle?

    I should also point out that Russian production 338 Laupa Mag ammo might need to be taken with a grain of salt, as Russian 9 x 19mm ammo is not the same as western 9mm ammo as it is generally loaded to a quite potent pressure equivelent to NATO 9mm ++ rounds used in SMGs only. This Russian 338 Laupa Mag ammo might also be slightly different and intended for Russian weapons specifically.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:38 am

    GarryB wrote:Just for clarification Austin where it says serial production starting this year... do they mean the Russian 338 calibre ammo or the rifle?

    Garry ,I found the pictures on MP.net and posted it along with the caption , not sure what the source was since the original source or link is not present.

    I presume the person who posted it got it from a Russian page and just translated the caption.

    No apologies required ,we are just here to learn and share .....Although I learn much more then I share


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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:00 am

    No apologies required ,we are just here to learn and share .....Although I learn much more then I share

    The apology was totally necessary, you posted a photo... contributing as usual, and my reply sounded like I was a grumpy school master correcting a student.

    It is a shame we don't know the source of the photo.

    It would be quite interesting to identify who was using this rifle and in what context.

    Was it a shooting event? A test?

    The two calibres suggest it was a long range shoot.

    Was it a government department or police or armed forces?

    If this is for GRU snipers or VDV snipers it could suggest a test between a 12.7mm and a 338 LM rifle... they are clearly extending their targeting range. The range you would be using either rifle would be 1,000m plus which might explain the presence of each rifle as despite the designations you would be unlikely to see rifles like the SV-98 and SV-99 sharing a shooting mound.
    The 12.7mm has the advantage of actually being in service, but the special ammo needed to make a 12.7mm calibre rifle useful and the fact that using standard rifle ammo in that calibre would be an enormous waste of the weapons potential means that there is no advantage in using a standard calibre... it is not like you will find match grade 50 cal ammo lying all over the place on the battlefield.

    I suspect both will be different enough to warrant the use of both weapons in both calibres... but because we don't know who was using the rifles it is hard to make any guesses...

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:33 am

    GarryB wrote:It would be quite interesting to identify who was using this rifle and in what context.

    Was it a shooting event? A test?


    Well I have asked the original poster to provide more details if possible.

    Lets see if he has any or we will have to wait.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:25 pm

    Garry , this is what I got when asked for reference ,f-gen, a guy from KBP who seems to be the source , you will have to use translation to figure this out as its in russian.

    http://www.rusarmy.com/forum/topic524-600.html

    He seems to maintain photo album here

    http://www.rusarmy.com/forum/album_personal.php?user_id=10003

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:40 am

    Thanks for doing some leg work for me Austin, I appreciate it. Smile

    The fact that the guy works for KBP, which makes both rifles suggests he was testing on a long range which as anyone who shoots knows is a pain because of the distance to check performance and recover the targets.
    He might have been testing them both at once because the walk/drive to the target is similar so doing both at the same time reduces walk/drive time to the target for the results.

    I also suspect however that he probably wanted a comparison of performance at different ranges and the 12.7 is about the only round that could compete out to 1,200m.

    That photo album of his was worth the effort alone... looks good.

    Now I have some translating to do... Cool

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:28 am

    1. rifle not of the tree, but also not usual plastic.

    2. whose will cartridges - solve to buyer, depending on the size of his purse.

    3. close grouping is considerably better than angular minute.

    4. entire assembly (muzzle brake, supports,
    trigger mechanism so forth) also on the demand of customer, rifle is
    modular construction.

    5. series will be already in this year, practically release already begins.

    6. you already will excuse, thus far without the special details) "

    7. throw down [ssylochku] on to Hansa, but that I in no way will find…

    1. New plastic (resin?) stock
    2. Buyer can choose ammo based on price.
    3. Sub MOA accuracy.
    4. Modular design with customer options.
    5. Close to production status.
    6. can't give away all secrets yet.
    7. ?

    The above is regarding the new 338 LM model rifle. There is the 7.62 x 54mm and 7.62 x 51mm model. Work is starting on 300 magnum model and when that is complete a 12.7mm model will be started.

    Couldn't find any mention of who the rifle was aimed at... so to speak.

    There was an SVD model in 9.3 x 64mm calibre called the SVDK. I wonder if they will bother with a 338 model?

    The Russian military seems to like follow up shots over absolute precision.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:30 am

    GarryB wrote:1. New plastic (resin?) stock

    Polymers I believe , they have been extensively using polymers , polymers can include natural materials and plastics.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:43 am

    Yes, that will be what he means.

    The new black synthetics used for the Kalashnikovs are the same I think.

    Probably better able to take the harsh temperature changes than any sort of wood, and being less dangerous than metal in extremely low or high temperatures too.

    ...plus it looks cool. pirat

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:52 am

    yeah it does , the gun that the child was holding not sure as of yet if its a real or plastic , but it seems to use the new polymers which gives it a toy like look and smooth finish , something you cannot see with metals or woods.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:10 am

    Seems to be the legendary Lebed , was present at the flag presenting ceremony yesterday , thats a interesting SF vehical

    http://www.1tv.ru/news/social/174023

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:35 am

    That kids toy has been in service since the late 1980s...

    http://www.tsniitochmash.ru/archive/asvssen.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS_assault_rifle

    http://www.tulatoz.ru/en/milas.html

    and is reportedly very popular with those that use it.
    The ammo is relatively expensive so it must be pretty good to justify yet another calibre for their armed forces.
    Kalashnikov have even made a competing design in 9 x 39mm called the AK-9 in an attempt to get some action. AFAIK they even had a 30 shot mag developed for it (AK-9) to enhance its appeal.

    Regarding the VDV vid, I believe the vehicle is of his design (Lebed)... it seems he took and existing vehicle and stripped away everything that wasn't essential and started from there.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:09 am

    That things looks lethal , They seem to use heavy but subsonic round perhaps for body armour penetration ?

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:20 am

    Yes, there is a particular round specifically designed to penetrate body armour.

    There are three main rounds for these rifles in 9 x 39mm, the SP-6 is for penetrating body armour, the SP-5 is a more accurate round for sniper rifles against targets not wearing body armour, though it can still penetrate a steel helmet and retain enough energy to kill at 400m while the PAB-9 round is relatively cheap to produce and good for targets at normal combat ranges.

    Being a suppressed weapon round the velocity can't be higher than 290-300m/s, they have rounds in 5.45mm and 7.62 x 39mm that are subsonic to be fired in suppressed AKs but the 5.45mm round weighs 80 grain which isn't even as heavy as a 7.62 x 39mm round. The subsonic 7.62 x 39mm round is about 193 grain.
    Obviously the 9 x 39mm round can't be faster but by being heavier it has more energy and the extra weight of its 250 gain projectiles mean it retains velocity better too.

    For sneaky sneaky troops an AS or VSS is ideal but for normal troops or for an ambush a 7.62 x 39mm AK-103 with a suppressor fitted with subsonic ammo in the first 1 or 2 mags and supersonic ammo in the rest means that initially you can take down sentrys or dogs, but when the enemy is alert you can use full velocity ammo with a much longer effective range and more power.

    Of course the list of weapons that use the 9 x 39mm round is quite long now... the AS, VSS, Groza, SR-3, 9A-91, and AK-9 that I know of.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:43 am

    A nice FireArm FAQ

    link

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:01 am

    Repeats the old myth about looser tolerances making the AK more reliable but less accurate than other western rifles.

    This is BS.

    Take a modern AK and you will find the tolerances are not loose... nothing rattles. It is designed to operate with excess energy so if the weapon is dirty the mass of the bolt carrier is something like 5 times more than the mass of the bolt so it has plenty of energy to cycle the action no matter how dirty the weapon is.

    The only issue regarding accuracy with the old AK was that the heavy projectile wasn't travelling very fast so it has a fairly curved trajectory... especially past 300m. From 300m to 400m the bullet drop is something like 1m so if you aim centre chest at a target that is 400m away with the sights set to the battle sight position of 300m then your bullet will be hitting their feet or in rough uneven ground the dirt in front of them.

    What is important however is that at any range up to about 340m you can aim for the chest and get a good hit.

    At 300m with the sights set for 300m, then if the target is 10m in front of you you will hit them a few centimetres above the centre chest aimpoint. At about 100m you will get a low head shot with a central chest aimpoint. At 150m you will get a centre face head shot, and at 200m you will get a throat hit. At 250m you will get an upper chest hit and at 300m you will get a central chest hit. At about 340m you will likely get a gut shot.

    All with the same 300m battle setting using a centre chest aim point in an emergency you should get a decent hit on a target.

    Once beyond 300m the bullet starts to fall rapidly however and range to target becomes vital to get a clean hit.

    Smaller faster rounds don't drop as much and make getting hits easier at longer ranges because range estimation errors influence the impact point less.

    With accurate range to target information the 7.62 x 39mm is no worse than 5.56... in fact it is rather heavier so it retains energy and is less effected by cross winds or less likely to be deflected by light cover.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:19 pm

    The only really flaw about Russian subsonic armor piercers is that even their 'best' subsonic round for the VSSK (12.7 mm) can't penetrate the best armor that is used throughout the world (NIJ class IV or GOST class VI).

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:49 am

    Is it really a flaw?
    It all comes down to a trade off... the heaviest body armours are very tiring to wear all the time and so are often reserved for explosive ordinance disposal and mine clearance and many types of body armour have weak areas... maximum protection for the chest area for example.
    A 50 cal round to the gut, or taking off an arm or leg is still a life threatening injury... and of course a round to the head will likely be fatal unless it is a glancing blow.
    A full power high velocity 12.7mm armour piercing round should penetrate any body armour at a wide range of combat ranges when being quiet is not important any more of course.
    Even MRAP vehicles are not safe any more...
    ...the Russians are developing a single shot bolt action 30mm weapon for use against MRAP vehicles and at a stretch I suspect it could also be used against the most heavily protected enemy soldiers.

    The other option of course that most units available to them will be an RPG launcher with large thermobaric warheads that kill by crushing rather than penetrating.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:47 pm

    Actually, yes. If your goal is to design a suppressed heavy body armor penetrator that can be used by your Special Forces, than it damn well better penetrate the best vests that everyone uses. AFAIK, people who do buy body armor either purchase NIJ class IIIA (good for shotgun and pistols) or NIJ class IV (good for 7.62 AP sniper rounds). For the former you can use the VSK but for the latter the VSSK won't cut it.

    And really, if your solution is to use a TGB-7V v.s. "heavy body armor" than why even develop the VSSK? IMO, instead of developing a 30 mm round for sniper rifles, Russia should just develop sabot penetrators for smaller calibers, like the 12.7 mm SLAP or the 25 mm APDS that we have, which can both penetrate MRAPs as they are.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 01, 2011 1:45 am

    Actually, yes. If your goal is to design a suppressed heavy body armor
    penetrator that can be used by your Special Forces, than it damn well
    better penetrate the best vests that everyone uses.

    You seem to be missing an important factor... these weapons have to be quiet... they are suppressed sniper rifles that can handle most targets out to extended ranges.
    They can defeat the heaviest body armour by aiming for the legs or face... a 50 cal bullet though thigh is lethal fairly quickly without medical attention if it hits the main artery there.
    I would also point out that the heaviest body armour is actually very heavy and generally only offers full protection to the chest area so a shot to the side or gut will still likely penetrate.

    AFAIK, people who do buy body armor either purchase NIJ class IIIA (good
    for shotgun and pistols) or NIJ class IV (good for 7.62 AP sniper
    rounds). For the former you can use the VSK but for the latter the VSSK
    won't cut it.

    In which case a 50 cal sniper rifle that uses full power ammo like the OSN-96 would be used in that unlikely event.

    And really, if your solution is to use a TGB-7V v.s. "heavy body armor" than why even develop the VSSK?

    Sure, you don't understand the concept of using the tools you have... I am sure western special forces will see the enemy guards have heavy body armour and realise their VSSKs wont penetrate so they will just give up and go home without trying anything else. Rolling Eyes
    Russian special forces on the other hand will want to get the job done even if it means they have to sneak right up and use a knife to cut the guards throat.... or if they can't get that close because of open terrain batter them to death with a HE rocket.

    IMO, instead of developing a 30 mm round for sniper rifles, Russia
    should just develop sabot penetrators for smaller calibers, like the
    12.7 mm SLAP or the 25 mm APDS that we have, which can both penetrate
    MRAPs as they are.

    They already have SLAP type rounds according to western experts I respect. And the 30mm round is their standard 30mm round... not a new development, so in that sense they are basically using a 25mm portable gun... except their gun is rather more powerful and carries a more significant HE payload.
    The development of this new gun I suspect will result in an APHE round being developed because the effect of a single shot Sabot round would be pretty weak unless you are actually targeting the driver or a specific location of the target like the engine. An APHE round would be much more effective at injuring or killing the occupants of light armoured vehicles in a package that is light and portable for special forces. The same ammo is used by all branches of the Russian military so ammo resupply should not be a problem.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun May 01, 2011 5:35 am

    [quote="GarryB"]
    Actually, yes. If your goal is to design a suppressed heavy body armor
    penetrator that can be used by your Special Forces, than it damn well
    better penetrate the best vests that everyone uses.

    You seem to be missing an important factor... these weapons have to be quiet... they are suppressed sniper rifles that can handle most targets out to extended ranges.
    They can defeat the heaviest body armour by aiming for the legs or face... a 50 cal bullet though thigh is lethal fairly quickly without medical attention if it hits the main artery there.
    I would also point out that the heaviest body armour is actually very heavy and generally only offers full protection to the chest area so a shot to the side or gut will still likely penetrate.

    I am not missing the suppressed factor of the VSSK, I am simply stating that as it is now, it cannot do it's job which is effective and silenced penetration of heavy body armor. What they should do is up the bullet's weight even more to keep in lieu with it's suppression requirement.

    AFAIK, people who do buy body armor either purchase NIJ class IIIA (good
    for shotgun and pistols) or NIJ class IV (good for 7.62 AP sniper
    rounds). For the former you can use the VSK but for the latter the VSSK
    won't cut it.

    In which case a 50 cal sniper rifle that uses full power ammo like the OSN-96 would be used in that unlikely event.

    That'd blow the Special unit's cover.

    And really, if your solution is to use a TGB-7V v.s. "heavy body armor" than why even develop the VSSK?

    Sure, you don't understand the concept of using the tools you have... I am sure western special forces will see the enemy guards have heavy body armour and realise their VSSKs wont penetrate so they will just give up and go home without trying anything else. Rolling Eyes
    Russian special forces on the other hand will want to get the job done even if it means they have to sneak right up and use a knife to cut the guards throat.... or if they can't get that close because of open terrain batter them to death with a HE rocket.

    Of course, the Russians always try to be cinematic but perhaps they've missed the idea if their gun designers wanted a suppressed heavy armor penetrator that doesn't actually penetrate the armor people actually wear. It'd be smarter to actually make a suppressed gun/ammo that can penetrate said armor while still maintaining the suppressed factor in it, instead of just being all gung ho and blowing shit up.

    IMO, instead of developing a 30 mm round for sniper rifles, Russia
    should just develop sabot penetrators for smaller calibers, like the
    12.7 mm SLAP or the 25 mm APDS that we have, which can both penetrate
    MRAPs as they are.

    They already have SLAP type rounds according to western experts I respect. And the 30mm round is their standard 30mm round... not a new development, so in that sense they are basically using a 25mm portable gun... except their gun is rather more powerful and carries a more significant HE payload.
    The development of this new gun I suspect will result in an APHE round being developed because the effect of a single shot Sabot round would be pretty weak unless you are actually targeting the driver or a specific location of the target like the engine. An APHE round would be much more effective at injuring or killing the occupants of light armoured vehicles in a package that is light and portable for special forces. The same ammo is used by all branches of the Russian military so ammo resupply should not be a problem.

    No, they don't. AFAIK, the only Russian small caliber that has a sabot is the 30 mm variant. I am talking 12.7 mm - 25 mm calibers. For example, the .50 SLAP that we have can penetrate over 34 mm of steel at 500 m, which is slightly more than the 14.5x114 mm B-32 API round can penetrate at 500 m. In fact, the 25 mm M919 APDS round can penetrate more than the 30x165 mm APDS round that the Russians use, 62 mm compared to 50 mm at 1.5 km.

    Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing a 14.5 mm HMG rolling around spraying tungsten penetrators.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 05, 2011 8:18 am

    The VKS (VSSK) was developed for the FSB, not the Russian Military and its purpose was to defeat targets in cars or those wearing body armour.

    According to this page:

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/large-caliber-sniper-rifles/rus/vks-vssk-vychlop-e.html

    Particularly this:
    High penetration bullet can defeat Russian Class 5 (US NIJ Type III /
    High-Powered Rifle) body armor at 100 meters or 16mm steel plate at 200
    meters.

    It meets the requirements set for it.

    That'd blow the Special unit's cover.

    Or they can take head shots...

    Of course, the Russians always try to be cinematic but perhaps they've
    missed the idea if their gun designers wanted a suppressed heavy armor
    penetrator that doesn't actually penetrate the armor people actually
    wear.

    And how many people actually wear body armour capable of stopping 7.62mm armour piercing ammo on a regular basis?

    It'd be smarter to actually make a suppressed gun/ammo that can
    penetrate said armor while still maintaining the suppressed factor in
    it, instead of just being all gung ho and blowing shit up.

    Of course. They turn up to the target area and see the targets are all sitting in M1 Abrams tanks so they quickly increase the bullet mass of the rounds in their guns and fire quietly.

    If for some reason the VKS rounds are not penetrating then the people not being killed will likely be shouting that there is an attack under way... in such a situation being quiet is no longer a problem is it and a single quite loud shot from a 50 cal rifle firing supersonic AP ammo suddenly makes sense... because if you can't be quiet you can over power them with heavy fire power.

    No, they don't. AFAIK, the only Russian small caliber that has a sabot
    is the 30 mm variant. I am talking 12.7 mm - 25 mm calibers.

    You believe that do you?

    So they will make a 12.7 x 54mm round especially for special forces use to take down targets with body armour, and they will develop and issue a 9 x 39mm round and assault and sniper rifles to fire it for recon units within motor rifle units, but they wont develop a simple round similar to the 50 cal SLAP round...

    Again I say it is interesting that you think that.

    For example, the .50 SLAP that we have can penetrate over 34 mm of steel
    at 500 m, which is slightly more than the 14.5x114 mm B-32 API round
    can penetrate at 500 m.

    And a Russian 50 cal SLAP round has similar performance because it is a very similar round, but imagine the performance of a 14.5mm SLAP round...

    In fact, the 25 mm M919 APDS round can penetrate more than the 30x165 mm
    APDS round that the Russians use, 62 mm compared to 50 mm at 1.5 km.

    Would be amused to see where you got those figures from. The 25 x 137 is hardly the biggest cannon round around... especially compared with the 30 x 165 Russian round.

    Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing a 14.5 mm HMG rolling around spraying tungsten penetrators.

    SLAP rounds don't make sense with machine guns... a SLAP round has high velocity and low drag so there is little point firing it out of the same tube you are also firing ball and HE rounds out of because no two shots would land in the same firing range...

    IronsightSniper
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat May 14, 2011 9:23 am

    GarryB wrote:The VKS (VSSK) was developed for the FSB, not the Russian Military and its purpose was to defeat targets in cars or those wearing body armour.

    According to this page:

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/large-caliber-sniper-rifles/rus/vks-vssk-vychlop-e.html

    Particularly this:
    High penetration bullet can defeat Russian Class 5 (US NIJ Type III /
    High-Powered Rifle) body armor at 100 meters or 16mm steel plate at 200
    meters.

    It meets the requirements set for it.

    ...I'm not talking about meeting the Designer's requirements, I'm talking about meeting real life requirements. Like I've said, you're seldom to find a guy wearing anything other than a NIJ class IIIA or NIJ class IV vest/plate out there. The VSSK therefore, will usually fail to do it's role.

    That'd blow the Special unit's cover.

    Or they can take head shots...

    So the question goes down to, "If I design a gun that can't penetrate that guy's armor, why make the gun at all?" Not to mention that the VSSK is not special purpose because it can do headshots, which most guns can anyways.

    Of course, the Russians always try to be cinematic but perhaps they've
    missed the idea if their gun designers wanted a suppressed heavy armor
    penetrator that doesn't actually penetrate the armor people actually
    wear.

    And how many people actually wear body armour capable of stopping 7.62mm armour piercing ammo on a regular basis?

    Every competent professional army's infantryman does.

    It'd be smarter to actually make a suppressed gun/ammo that can
    penetrate said armor while still maintaining the suppressed factor in
    it, instead of just being all gung ho and blowing shit up.

    Of course. They turn up to the target area and see the targets are all sitting in M1 Abrams tanks so they quickly increase the bullet mass of the rounds in their guns and fire quietly.

    If for some reason the VKS rounds are not penetrating then the people not being killed will likely be shouting that there is an attack under way... in such a situation being quiet is no longer a problem is it and a single quite loud shot from a 50 cal rifle firing supersonic AP ammo suddenly makes sense... because if you can't be quiet you can over power them with heavy fire power.

    But then you've again missed the point. The point of the VSSK is supposed to allow a quiet entry into some compound while dealing with Heavy-body armor equipped soldiers. If all they had to do was do headshots then why not just give them a VSK instead? If everyone started rolling around in tanks then again, the VSSK designers have missed the point. But because no one actually does, they've still missed the point.

    No, they don't. AFAIK, the only Russian small caliber that has a sabot
    is the 30 mm variant. I am talking 12.7 mm - 25 mm calibers.

    You believe that do you?

    So they will make a 12.7 x 54mm round especially for special forces use to take down targets with body armour, and they will develop and issue a 9 x 39mm round and assault and sniper rifles to fire it for recon units within motor rifle units, but they wont develop a simple round similar to the 50 cal SLAP round...

    Again I say it is interesting that you think that.

    Well, do they? Prove to me they do, pictures, text, links etc. Until then they don't.

    For example, the .50 SLAP that we have can penetrate over 34 mm of steel
    at 500 m, which is slightly more than the 14.5x114 mm B-32 API round
    can penetrate at 500 m.

    And a Russian 50 cal SLAP round has similar performance because it is a very similar round, but imagine the performance of a 14.5mm SLAP round...

    That's what I'm saying, Russia needs SLAP rounds! Of course, they haven't got that far yet in their thinking.

    In fact, the 25 mm M919 APDS round can penetrate more than the 30x165 mm
    APDS round that the Russians use, 62 mm compared to 50 mm at 1.5 km.

    Would be amused to see where you got those figures from. The 25 x 137 is hardly the biggest cannon round around... especially compared with the 30 x 165 Russian round.

    You don't know what a APFSDS DU can do then.

    http://collinsj.tripod.com/protect.htm

    At the very bottom.

    And from a "certain tank forum":

    25x137 Oerlikon APDS - 30mm/60°/1000m, 25mm/60°/2000m
    25x137 Oerlikon APFSDS - 36mm/60mm°/1000m, 31mm/60°/2000m
    25x137 Alliant APFSDS FANG - 31mm/60°/2000m

    Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing a 14.5 mm HMG rolling around spraying tungsten penetrators.

    SLAP rounds don't make sense with machine guns... a SLAP round has high velocity and low drag so there is little point firing it out of the same tube you are also firing ball and HE rounds out of because no two shots would land in the same firing range...

    It makes sense for penetrating light vehicles or light armor. There were exactually many penetrations recorded by 12.7 mm SLAP rounds used during the Gulf Wars v.s. ancient Soviet tanks.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

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