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    Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

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    GarryB
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:32 am

    I wonder if they will make similar new equvelents of the other Kalashnikov weapons.

    ie the 9mm rail equipped balanced recoil PP-19-01 Vityaz SMG, a rail equipped balanced recoil 5.45mm AKS-74U, a rail equipped balanced recoil AK-105 carbine in 5.45mm, the AK-200 fits here, a long barrel rail equipped balanced recoil RPK-74M?

    Perhaps with the RPK-74M they could be even more radical and modify it to fire from an open bolt in full auto and closed bolt in semi automatic and use a belt feed.

    Something like the ARES Shrike for the M16?

    ie http://world.guns.ru/machine/usa/ares-shrike-e.html

    Personally I would be interested in a bullpup belt fed conversion of an RPK-74 that uses a backpack mounted ammo store that can hold a thousand rounds of ready to use ammo with a feed mechanism to the rear of the gun.... Twisted Evil

    Of course I know that the concept of LMG goes out the window with a small calibre round and the best solution is in fact the Pecheneg.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:46 am

    Garry Check this news section , it has one additional pictures of scope

    http://www.izhmash.ru/rus/news/170111.shtml

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:36 am

    Garry reading around there is still no clarity on balanced recoil mechanism for AK-200 or AK-74-200 as some people like to call.

    We will have to wait for some confirmation on that front.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:58 am

    Thanks Austin... here is that last image cleaned up:


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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:03 am



    Here is that first image again... cleaned up.
    As you can see I have marked it showing where the gas tube attaches to the barrel and where the end of the barrel actually ends.
    Forward of where the barrel ends is the muzzle attachment, which on the AK-74 is quite long.

    My argument is that in a conventional mechanism the gas system that reloads the weapon doesn't start operating till the projectile has passed where the gas is tapped off from the barrel and the gas system needs a distance where the gas is getting pressure from behind the bullet to where the bullet exits the barrel and pressure going into the gas system drops rapidly.

    Look at a standard AK like Hooch's gun posted previously in this thread to see that it needs a good distance to work or you need a completely different muzzle device as fitted to the AKS-74U.

    The AKS-74U has a muzzle device called a recoil booster which increases the back pressure on the gas system to ensure proper function of the gas system.

    This AK-200 doesn't have a recoil booster... and it would need one in its current configuration... except if it has a balanced recoil mechanism.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:53 am

    Garry you are the person with expertise in gun , so i do not have any argument to offer and I submit to what you say.

    I was just pointing to the fact that in general WWW the opinion is divided.

    I just wonder when would they release the specs of this new toy , perhaps send one to you for writing a review Very Happy

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:04 am

    Well let me just put this to the doubters... without a balanced recoil system... which they made in the AK-107 and AK-108 which means they can make it and mass produce it if need be without a completely new design, why would it take two years to test, trial and put into service the AK-200 which without a balanced recoil mechanism is simply an AK-74M with rails?

    Would they need trials just to add rails?

    Personally I am disappointed they have a peep rear sight... the older sights gave good enough accuracy out to about 150m and when shooting at targets beyond that instead of a peep iron sight they should have a low power scope option. At short range peep sights obscures your field of view and gives the shooter tunnel vision without the advantages of a scope.
    Yeah... people will b!tch about the short sight radius... but the sight radius of an AK sight includes the eye and rear and front sight elements... all of which are aligned to hit the target.
    The rifle with the absolute worst sight radius is the iron sight equipped version of the SA80 and they don't complain about it on that... in fact some soldiers prefer the iron sights as they give a better field of view than the scope does.
    There are lots of little cosmetic things they could do, like a hold open feature after the last shot is fired from a mag. I really don't care about suggestions to make the cocking handle ambidextrous... I shoot left handed and it suits me just fine.
    Demands for a quieter safety catch are ridiculous... the little bit of metal that sticks out for you to thumb down the selector can be pinched in both fingers and pulled out from the rifle to change its setting silently... sure it takes slightly more time, but if you are being sneaky then the extra time is worth it to not give yourself away. If there is a panic of urgency then you are probably in trouble already so a little clack will not make much difference.

    What else do people complain about?

    Ahh, yes accuracy, and sometimes even recoil... these complaints come from ignorants that think AKs still fire heavy 120 grain 7.62mm calibre slugs.
    The rifles in 5.56, 5.45, and 7.62mm calibre were tested with one round in the magazine each and recoil levels were something like 7 newtons for the 7.62, 6 newtons for the 5.56mm, and 3 newtons for the 5.45mm.
    Now part of that reduction for the 5.45mm round was the very efficient muzzle brake the AK-74 uses, but that is fair because that is the rifle it is fired from.

    I just wonder when would they release the specs of this new toy , perhaps send one to you for writing a review

    If only that were so... Cool

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:12 am

    Garry if you were proven right on balanced recoil for Ak-200 , I will owe you a beer Smile

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:22 am

    If I am wrong then the AK-200 will be the biggest disappointment ever... an AK-74M with rail mounted iron sights and a 60 round mag that could have been fitted to any 5.45mm AK.

    It is not like they can't make balanced recoil mechanisms or produce them... the AK-108/107 is evidence they can design them and presumably make them in bulk without a complete redesign.

    If a balanced recoil mechanism is too expensive then why spend any money at all right now, why not just keep making AK-74Ms with rails added and wait till something really new becomes available before designing something new and radical?

    Along with the 60 round mag I remember them talking about a 50 round model which presumably is also double stack but shorter, and also a 90 round mag which I might guess is a standard RPK-74M 45 shot mag that has been given the same treatment as the 30 round mag to make the 60 round mag.

    I have seen a drum design however that looked a little strange in that the drum itself was flat/horizontal and held 90 rounds but because it was flat was actually shorter than a 30 round mag for getting down into a low firing position.

    If you look on this page you will see a photo and in that photo from top to bottom is the drum I refer to above, a double stack 60 round mag and the bottom is an enormous single stack 7.62 x 39mm 100 round half moon clip.

    http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/models/ka202.html

    Based on the information in the boxes below the quad stack 60 round mag is the same size as a conventional 30 round mag and its height is given as 21cm. The flat drum mag is only 12 cms tall so you could get significantly lower while carrying 60 extra rounds compared to the normal 30 round mag or an extra 30 rounds if you have the quad stacked mag.

    I can just see it now... an AKS-74U with a 90 round drum....

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:15 am

    So what would be really new and radical?

    How about a liquid propellent rifle.

    Lets start with a bullpup design... this maximises the barrel length while keeping the rifle compact.

    The trigger can be electronic so it will be in front of the rear mounted bullet box but because it is electronic it can be slid forward and backwards as a way of adjusting the length of pull (ie distance between the trigger and the shoulder butt stock so if you are wearing bulky body armour you can slide the pistol grip back to make it easier to reach).

    The bullets and propellent will be separated with the projectiles in a box behind the pistol grip under the stock. There is no empty shell case though there will be a tray where unused rounds can be extracted and unused propellent vented.

    The propellent tanks will be under the fore grip area around the barrel as a coolant. The propellent will be separated into two components where each component will not explode or be flammable on their own, they will need to be combined to combust as propellent. It will be a binary propellent.

    Propellent will be moved around the gun in tubes and the measures will be precisely controlled by a small computer that will wirelessly connect to the operators super soldier kit... ie like Felin.

    The bullet holder will carry at least two or three types of projectiles with shorter light for close range combat and longer heavier bullets for longer range shooting. The loading mechanism will use range data from the sighting system to determine range, the user will enter target information and the rifle will determine what projectile and propellent load to use.

    It is possible that different calibre barrels could be used for instance a 9mm barrel with a rate of twist that suits short heavy pistol bullets for short range high rate of fire applications for self defence and 6.5mm calibre barrels with a rate of twist that suits very long very heavy bullets for long range shooting etc.

    Cover it with rails for pistol grips and bipods and lights and lasers, but have a built in scope with a thermal channel and zoom capability with a built in ballistic computer and laser range finder.

    Problems would be unloading rounds without firing the weapon, and the limited range of projectiles that would be effective as the barrel can't change calibre or rifling twist rates... so the rifling will suit a specific weight of projectile and of course one calibre.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:49 am

    How balanced recoil works


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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:52 am

    I just wonder if Balanced Recoil mechanism can be implemented on Tank Main Guns , to improve accuracy,higher rate of fire and recoil ?

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:06 am

    No.

    The balanced recoil mechanism only works well in a weapon like the AK design because it has a heavy bolt carrier that slams back and forth during recoil.

    One of the ways the AK gets it reliability is from the 5 to one ratio in weight when comparing the bolt with the bolt carrier... with the bolt being more than 5 times the mass of the bolt so when the bolt carrier is blown back by high pressure gas tapped off from the barrel it has a lot of energy to rotate and unlock the bolt and then drag the bolt back with the empty shell case to the back of the receiver.
    This extra energy means that even if the weapon is dirty the power of the bolt coming back will overcome any resistance created by dirt etc and the mechanism will function.

    The obvious problem is that the bolt carrier becomes quite heavy and as it slams back and forth during firing it tends to move the rifle around alot.

    The Soviets weren't idiots... they knew exactly what was happening. They felt a reliable gun was better than a more accurate on.

    In the SVD design it uses the same gas system but the piston is much thinner and smaller and lighter and only moves a few cms and is not attached to the bolt carrier, so the bolt carrier is much smaller and lighter, so has less effect on increasing felt recoil... which is just as well because the 7.62 x 54R round has plenty of that.

    Your average tank gun doesn't have a big heavy mechanism that absorbs recoil and automatically reloads the main gun. The recoil is largely absorbed directly by the turret ring though the barrel and breechblock sometimes do move back with recoil.

    This balanced recoil mechanism redesigns the bolt carrier so that the mass of the carrier going forward balances the mass of the bolt carrier going back under recoil and the opposite when the bolt carrier goes forward to reload the weapon. With the effect of the bolt and bolt carrier slamming back and forth eliminated the old recoil felt by the firer is the projectile and gas pushing it, because there is no projectile or gas blast going the opposite way to balance it.
    In comparison the recoil of the bullet and gas is negligible compared to the bolt slapping around on a conventional AK.

    Note AR rifles also have bolts and bolt carriers that slam back and forth during firing, it is just that they are by design lighter with no gas piston at all and the gas tapped from the barrel hitting the face of the bolt carrier directly.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:16 am

    Thanks for the explanation Smile

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:34 am

    Garry found this on BRF , one of the members blog on firearms , thought might be interesting to you and others who are deeply knowledgeable on this.

    http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  njb1 on Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:17 pm

    Do we know any time lines on the Testing of the AK200 ? Press reports I've seen only state 'testing in 2011' with no detail of the process - any one got any ideas or info on the subject.

    thanks

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:09 am

    Thanks for the link Austin, though I knew most of it... it is nice to see it all together like that.

    @njb1 I haven't heard any more than what you have posted... state testing 2011...

    I have not heard if there is any competition in the trials, like from the ADS bullpup rifle that is designed to operate as a replacement for the AKS-74M, and the APS underwater rifle by using special 5.45mm underwater ammo and standard 5.45mm rounds. The ADS was in tests last year for the Naval Infantry and the VDV as a potential new standard rifle.

    Note that in the past the Naval infantry have had the specialised APS rifle that uses ammunition that looks like someone got a standard 5.45mm round and took out the standard projectile and replaced it with a knitting needle about 20cm long. The shape of the round makes it very effective under water and able to be used in a smoothbore rifle capable of full auto or single shot with a 26 round magazine. They have even developed tracer ammo for the weapon... which would be very interesting to see a video of. The problem is that while the weapon is far superior to any spear gun while under water, above water it is probably less accurate than your average pistol, so a standard assault rifle has to be carried as well.
    The new ADS is a new bullpup design base on the A90 assault rifle. It has a tube that blows empty shell cases forward so unlike some bullpups you can fire it left or right handed without any adjustments and without empty shell cases hitting you.
    The new thing about the rifle is new 5.45mm ammo that looks normal from the outside and fits into standard magazines but contains a reduced powder charge and the projectile is the length of the case with its base nearly touching the primer. This long length makes it efficient in the water and its performance is just as good as the APS underwater regarding range, accuracy, and lethality, while above water using standard 5.45mm ammo its accuracy is as good as the AKS-74M standard rifle, if not better.

    With that sort of competition Kalashnikov will need to have something to give his rifle an edge in trials. I think a balanced recoil mechanism will increase complication in production, but not so much as to make it super expensive, and the effect on performance in burst and full auto fire seems very impressive based on what I have seen of the AEK videos on youtube. In full auto bursts the hits tend to cluster like a shotgun blast rather than string upwards like a burst from a rifle. There is a reason why shotguns are used for moving targets...

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  njb1 on Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:13 pm


    It will be interesting to see what Izhmash do with the stock , pistol grip and flip-up sights on the AK200. On the photos seen so far it looks like commercial US models are used - I guess the Russians will develop parts them selves for potential poduction models.

    Also the sights shown so far have been - what looks like Aimpoint & ACOG models - I wonder why no Russian optics have been shown on the weapon ?

    I guess we will have to wait over the course of the next 12 to 24 months before we see a possible production model however I wonder if a version will be shown at any of the Russian defence equipment shows in 2011.

    Its got great potential if a balanced recoil system is used.

    Any ideas as to the barrel length ? still 415mm or slightly shorter - its difficult to tell ?

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:20 pm

    Any reason why AK-103 which can fire 7.62x39mm rounds are not designed with balanced recoil mechanism , considering it can improve accuracy and reduce recoil.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:55 pm

    It will be interesting to see what Izhmash do with the stock , pistol
    grip and flip-up sights on the AK200. On the photos seen so far it looks
    like commercial US models are used - I guess the Russians will develop
    parts them selves for potential poduction models.

    It is pretty new for Russian made weapons for domestic use to have Picatinny rails so there might be a short gap, but I have seen a few Russian weapons with short Picatinny rails, like the Vityaz 9mm SMG based on the AKS-74U. It will only be a matter of time before standard Russian scopes come with Picatinny rail support... and as an added bonus this will mean better access to the western civilian and military market without the need for adaptors and able to be fitted to ARs as well as AKs and other guns of all types that have the rails.

    Also the sights shown so far have been - what looks like Aimpoint &
    ACOG models - I wonder why no Russian optics have been shown on the
    weapon ?

    The Russians have plenty of different optics models, though for the first prototype rifles they might not have had example scope ready. Of course the whole purpose of adopting rails might be to make western optics an option if needed so they might have chosen to put on western scopes intentionally.

    I suspect the Russian optics industry can match the quality and performance of the western scopes at a much more reasonable price...

    I guess we will have to wait over the course of the next 12 to 24 months
    before we see a possible production model however I wonder if a version
    will be shown at any of the Russian defence equipment shows in 2011.

    Have to keep an eye on exercises to see if it gets a test that way too.

    Its got great potential if a balanced recoil system is used.

    I agree.

    Any ideas as to the barrel length ? still 415mm or slightly shorter - its difficult to tell ?

    It is difficult to tell. I wonder if they have changed the cocking handle to the left side, and if the safety is changed at all... and which side does the folding stock fold to... just looking at the fold down Iron sights I suspect they have gone for peep hole iron sights... which I really don't like much. When I fire my SLR sometimes I get the feeling the rear sight will poke me in the eye under recoil...

    Any reason why AK-103 which can fire 7.62x39mm rounds are not designed
    with balanced recoil mechanism , considering it can improve accuracy and
    reduce recoil.

    The purpose of the AK-103 was to bring the AKM up to AKS-74M standard... just like the others in the AK-101-105 was to create a family of AKS-74M standard weapons in 5.56, 5.45, and 7.62 x 39mm calibre and of course AKS-74M based carbines in the three calibres too.
    There is a similar upgrade of the RPK in the three calibres to RPK-74M standard.

    The AK-107/108 is the balanced recoil family, but I have not heard of the AK-106 which I would guess would be the balanced recoil 7.62 x 39mm weapon.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:06 am



    New sniper rifle from Tula MC-116R (on the left, on the right - OSV-96) caliber 0.338 L presently usign foreign ammunition, domestic ammo ready also. Serial production starting this year.

    (via mp.net )

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:33 am

    Hardly new... it has a new synthetic stock and it is in a new calibre (338 laupa magnum), but it is basically the MTs-116 target rifle modified into a sniper rifle with a magazine feed (MTs-116M) and the new calibre.

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/mts-116m-e.html

    Calling it a new sniper rifle would be like calling a 338 Laupa Magnum version of the SV-98 a new rifle.

    Good idea however as the 7.62 x 54mmR calibre weapons are limited to about 800m in effective range for sniping so a 338 Laupa magnum should extend that effective range to about 1,200m.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:59 am

    You would know better on that front for sure Smile

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:13 am

    Hell in that Russian sniper competition link you posted earlier, they were using .338 for some of their long range shots.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:42 pm

    IronsightSniper wrote:Hell in that Russian sniper competition link you posted earlier, they were using .338 for some of their long range shots.

    Simple English Please what do you mean by that Smile

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