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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

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    Vann7
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:36 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:To vann7:


    And how many would be required to build in order to cover 1300km of Russia- Ukraine border?  Smile

    You don't need a camera in every border of Russia federation ..   but i guess you already knew that..

    Only Observation post in the place of conflict for now is Rostov Region.. and is not necessary to build an Eiffel Tower to observe 30km inside ukraine border. and simple 100ft camera crane with some protection against light guns will do the job..



    but a cheap watchtower of the same height will do the job. If they come under fire it will be an attack on Russian territory and Russia will know exactly where to retaliate. Israel that is a tiny state ,do have a good observation watchtowers everywhere that there is conflict. i dont see why Russia cant do it.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Regular on Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:48 pm

    Vann7 wrote:


    But not used where it needs to be used... Reason why they have no clue of who attacked them. And the drone attacked clearly proof your idea is pretty useless ,im not suggesting giving free technology to Ukraine or NATO .A watchtower do not crash like a drone .and is pretty fucking cheap. Why you all dont get a fucking clue ,that watchtowers are super useful ,and Russia if they had them ,at the right place they could have spotted in the moment who is bombing Rostov several times for more than a week.  WHen Israel its border is attacked ,they can immediately pin point the place the attack came and retaliate.. why Russia cannot know in detail who is bombing with artillery them? and needs to do "investigations".? Is not rocket science , Russia is being attacked ,people is at hospital and they do nothing to prevent any attack to continue  ,neither have a fucking clue the location of the attack ,is not filming either the Ukraine artillery activites in their border.. and drones is not going to solve the problems. period.
    Watchtowers. Watchtowers will solve everything Very Happy Russia has plenty of them. But being immobile and restricted by terrain they are quite useless. They are way more expensive than toy plane that is UAV. 
    Common man, Russian border guards are really well funded people these days. And they are hungry for drones. From small to medium. But I think balloon idea is good. It only has to be at safe ceiling. It could be similar to balloons used in Russo-Turkish wars.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  TheGeorgian on Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:00 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    The people you defend , wants Russia to invade.
    They are doing everything to provoke Russia from burning russians alive as they did in Odessa , from oligarks paying per kill of every russia ,from bombing cities ,schools ,hospitals killing civilians womens and children. Is a plain genocide what the kiev army is doing. Even the american CNN media ,the people you support ,have reports of Ukrainian Airforce directly bombing civilians in parks.. with womens cut in parts. So i do not think there will be any peace at all if Rebels defeated. Thats when the ethnic cleansin will start. And all eastern Ukrainians deported to other cities and their properties taken.

    This just sounds absurd, like Ukraine was a complete Nazi state that had nothing else in mind but to completly erradicate and expulse all ethnic Russians living there. Think about how redicilous that sounds. There won't be ethnic cleansing. What I want is not separatists being completly destroyed and defeated. I want both sides to cease fire, negociate armistice, peace, compromise on autonomy not separation because THAT is what will keep instability and not anything else. Kiev makes compromise that everyone is to be treated equaly, both language wise, rights etc and the rebels finaly accept and lay down arms. No punitive action and also no redicilous "ethnic cleansing" will take place .... It's like when you want to see something as a war, it's war. But when it suits you to see it as genocide, it's genocide. What you call what happens in Syria then ? Genocide from all 300 parties fighting there ?? Stop calling everything involving the death of civilians a genocide. It makes you look silly.

    Vann7
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:27 pm

    And again Russia border guards comes under attack..  Laughing 

    http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/739115

    10 Russian border guard agents went to investigate and unexploded shells in Russian border ,
    and came under fire from Ukraine..  Why this happen? Because Russia does nothing to defend their land.
    Allowing bandits to freely and directly aim at their borderguards.. a simple Artillery attack retaliation on the place
    the attack came will be enough to let them know is not good to attack the border territory of RUssia. This is becoming truly pathetic. Russia needs to give an ultimatun kiev that if do not control its army attacks on Russia
    territory that they will be full right to retaliate . and may declare a 30km buffer zone in the Rostov Border if consider it necessary to defend its territory. What the fuck is Russia waiting? people to die inside Russia to do something? They need to talk to the EU and tell them about the attacks on their border by Ukraine army and warn them that Russia will not tolerate more attacks on its land.  I bet Russia security is so inept that do not have a clue from where the attacks came..

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  TheGeorgian on Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:34 pm

    This is strange. Ok not under control is one thing, but even them faschist wing is not stupid enough to do that and why would Ukr military try to provoke a Russian retaliation .... ?  Rolling Eyes  This just doesn't make sense to me people. I cannot trust such heavy accusations without facts. If it happened, it could have been from anyone. What ? staged provocations are no new invention. I'm not trying to imply something but I have my doubts on such stories and it's more than justified. It's not like Ukraine would be really keen for a war with Russia considering how "powerful" and "stronk" they are ....

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:49 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:To vann7:


    And how many would be required to build in order to cover 1300km of Russia- Ukraine border?  Smile

    You don't need a camera in every border of Russia federation ..   but i guess you already knew that..

    Only Observation post in the place of conflict for now is Rostov Region.. and is not necessary to build an Eiffel Tower to observe 30km inside ukraine border. and simple 100ft camera crane with some protection against light guns will do the job..



    but a cheap watchtower of the same height will do the job. If they come under fire it will be an attack on Russian territory and Russia will know exactly where to retaliate. Israel that is a tiny state ,do have a good observation watchtowers everywhere that there is conflict. i dont see why Russia cant do it.

    You'd need much more than a 100ft.

    I used a simple horizon range formula:

       d=3.57sqrt{h}

    where d is in kilometres and h is height above ground level in metres.
    To have a 30km visibility you need 70,5 metre height tower, that's not taking into account the terrain, trees, etc. for which my approximate figure is better suited.

    As you can see, such towers would be so expensive that drones become simply a more cost effective system.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Starlight on Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:25 pm

    The argument that Russia is not intervening in the Donbass because it is not sure if the majority population there would welcome this, is not supported by what happened in Abkhazia. In 2008 many Georgians in Abkhazia probably did not support intervention. Some Georgians left while others remained in Abkhazia. Abkhazia is independent although recognized by few countries. A Donbass administration could decide its future based on the wishes of its people - whether to have a loose federation with Ukraine, or to be independent, or  union with Russia

    etaepsilonk
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:25 pm

    Regular wrote:
    But I think balloon idea is good. It only has to be at safe ceiling. It could be similar to balloons used in Russo-Turkish wars.

    Aerostats would be pretty vulnerable to AA.

    -----------
    Some arty action:

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Regular on Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:07 am

    Some arty pron Smile 

    Vann7
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:23 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    As you can see, such towers would be so expensive that drones become simply a more cost effective system.

    No , what i see is that is  a waste of time to argue with Ignorants.. That believe Watchtowers no one uses them and proved you WRONG.. and later change its argument about being to expensive or not high enough.. LOL   whatever makes you happy. Stay that way i dont care is your problem. on a flat terrain you dont even need elevation to observe up to 20km away.. from where artillery is being launched. Go back to school. The same videos uploaded of artillery clearly show is possible to see up to ~15km- ~20km away in plain sight from where artillery comes. Enough to send Attack helicopters or attack drones and wipe them. a 100ft watchtower with special cameras will be more than enough to detect exactly from where the artillery attacks comes.



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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Strizh on Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:25 am

    Regular wrote:
    n7 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:

    Now Russia is using UAVs too. One was downed in Ukraine 5 days ago. Downed by AK fire they say. I bet it was flying very low as it's very hard to get a hit on such small UAV

    Shot down without a single whole. Looks more like a malfunction.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Regular on Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:32 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    As you can see, such towers would be so expensive that drones become simply a more cost effective system.

    No , what i see is that is  a waste of time to argue with Ignorants.. That believe Watchtowers no one uses them and proved you WRONG.. and later change its argument about being to expensive or not high enough.. LOL   whatever makes you happy. Stay that way i dont care is your problem. on a flat terrain you dont even need elevation to observe up to 20km away.. from where artillery is being launched. Go back to school. The same videos uploaded of artillery clearly show is possible to see up to ~15km- ~20km away in plain sight from where artillery comes. Enough to send Attack helicopters or attack drones and wipe them. a 100ft watchtower with special cameras will be more than enough to detect exactly from where the artillery attacks comes.


    I don't want to be harsh on You, maybe You have a condition or You are just naive.
    But keep in mind that what You are not a genius, Your idea You are trying to "sell" here already exists in similar more mature forms. It's like You just came up with idea of bicycle, but with square wheels.

    1 - Flat terrain. It's not so common and there is plenty of vegetation too. 
    2 - Good luck detecting Smerch that can fire from distance way beyond visual contact.
    3 - Visual detection, flash/sound ranging is a thing of WW2. 
    Look at Zoopark 1M system video
    http://youtu.be/xBFg3iGcL4M?t=1m50s
    4- Helicopters, drones... How many attack drones Russia have? Very Happy And helicopters are toast if there is decent AD in work.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:02 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    As you can see, such towers would be so expensive that drones become simply a more cost effective system.

    No , what i see is that is  a waste of time to argue with Ignorants.. That believe Watchtowers no one uses them and proved you WRONG.. and later change its argument about being to expensive or not high enough.. LOL   whatever makes you happy. Stay that way i dont care is your problem. on a flat terrain you dont even need elevation to observe up to 20km away.. from where artillery is being launched. Go back to school. The same videos uploaded of artillery clearly show is possible to see up to ~15km- ~20km away in plain sight from where artillery comes. Enough to send Attack helicopters or attack drones and wipe them. a 100ft watchtower with special cameras will be more than enough to detect exactly from where the artillery attacks comes.

    Why, of course it's a waste of time. Afterall, who am I to try to argue using the established mathematical calculations against your totally-not-baseless assumptions?  Wink



    ----------

    To regular:
    "And helicopters are toast if there is decent AD in work."

    They're far from toast if used correctly. Drones and attack choppas also make a very nice combo.

    -----------------

    According to some reports, seversk was shelled with MLRS.
    IMO, it's a mistake for the rebels to have retreated from artemovsk, if they really did.
    In that case Lisichansk region could be in danger of encirclement.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Regular on Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:49 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    "And helicopters are toast if there is decent AD in work."

    They're far from toast if used correctly. Drones and attack choppas also make a very nice combo.

    But drones and helicopters would be flying straight into foreign territory where there could be decent AD network.. You don't attack artillery positions without working on SEAD. But still MANPAD teams can be intact. I would rather counter artillery with artillery than over sophisticate things. Not sure about Russian precision strike capability, that can be used too.

    Vann7
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:54 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    As you can see, such towers would be so expensive that drones become simply a more cost effective system.

    No , what i see is that is  a waste of time to argue with Ignorants.. That believe Watchtowers no one uses them and proved you WRONG.. and later change its argument about being to expensive or not high enough.. LOL   whatever makes you happy. Stay that way i dont care is your problem. on a flat terrain you dont even need elevation to observe up to 20km away.. from where artillery is being launched. Go back to school. The same videos uploaded of artillery clearly show is possible to see up to ~15km- ~20km away in plain sight from where artillery comes. Enough to send Attack helicopters or attack drones and wipe them. a 100ft watchtower with special cameras will be more than enough to detect exactly from where the artillery attacks comes.


    I don't want to be harsh on You, maybe You have a condition or You are just naive.
    But keep in mind that what You are not a genius, Your idea You are trying to "sell" here already exists in similar more mature forms. It's like You just came up with idea of bicycle, but with square wheels.

    1 - Flat terrain. It's not so common and there is plenty of vegetation too. 
    2 - Good luck detecting Smerch that can fire from distance way beyond visual contact.
    3 - Visual detection, flash/sound ranging is a thing of WW2. 
    Look at Zoopark 1M system video
    http://youtu.be/xBFg3iGcL4M?t=1m50s
    4- Helicopters, drones... How many attack drones Russia have? Very Happy And helicopters are toast if there is decent AD in work.

    So you are saying then, that Israel watchtowers are obsolete? LOL
    They rely a lot more than anything on watchtowers to spot from where attack came across the border. this is because the resistance they fight use a lot rocket grenades or mortars or missiles  with just 10km to 30km ranges.
    In more than a few scenarios you can spot locations of enemy all the way to 20 to 30km away that is firing artillery. So watchtowers comes extremely useful in such cases , it also can spot movement of troops something that your smerch missiles cannot do .Israel use watchtowers ,only a idiot will not see how useful and important they are ,specially when your are constantly attacked at the borders.   The last artillery attack on Russia border ,was clearly a not with smerch missiles but short range ,because was aiming at 10 border guards that came close to Ukraine border 300m away ,and were investigating claims of unexploded bombs on their territory. SO anyone firing on Russia have spotters and spies that monitors the Russian border and aims directly at russian service man.

    1)So smerch are not ideal for monitoring your border. sarcasm.  
    2)Drones are not ideal either for monitoring if they are being shot down.
    3)AIrforce flying close the border is risky ,if the border is very hostile and armed with manpads.
    4)You cannot shot down watchtowers . they do not fly. and if they are shelled it will be a major attack on Russia
    territory ,not just a toy drone shutdown.

    Russia is being attacked from visual distance ,from 10km to 20km away..and artillery fire ,the flame from the artillery can be spotted with plain sight ~30km away. exactly like the videos recently uploaded.
    So watch towers comes very handy in place. Toy drones are useful but they can be shot down with light fire easily .
    Toy drones neither can detect enemy special forces using terrain as cover and moving slowly ,but a static camera can.A combination of Towers with toy drones will do it , have big and simple watchtowers near ukraine border and send toy drones to positions you suspect activity is happening and have Cameras in watchtowers 24hours fully monitoring the entire border 24hours.  The towers cannot crash with simple machine gun fire ,you need good aim and heavy artillery and attacking them is an attack on Russian territory .Simple and effective and cheap and period.


    I would rather counter artillery with artillery than over sophisticate things. Not sure about Russian precision strike capability, that can be used too.

    But you totally IGNORE the political aspect of the conflict . That attacking another nation without showing any evidence to justify your actions could be used against Russia for sanctions. You need to fully documented evidence to JUSTIFY your actions on UN security council for any attack on another nation. THis is specially true if you are not an ally of the west. This is the problem with most of your arguments and others too , that do not understand how important is for Russia to fully document the reason for any of their actions. IF Russia do what you suggest , kiev can say Russia is helping the Rebels and that they never attacked Russia..see? or that Russia is just fabricating excuse to attack Ukraine.. see?  Can your smerch missiles show evidence Russia was attacked by Ukraine? not it can't. Can your drones show evidence that Russia was attacked by ukraine.. yes.. but only if your lucky that the action happens ,in the time the drones is flying ..So this is why to fully monitor 24hours  what happens across the border is important and also can be used to show the Ukraine national guard is indiscriminately shelling cities on civilians.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:31 pm; edited 4 times in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Regular on Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:20 pm

    Vann7 wrote:So you are saying then, that Israel watchtowers are obsolete? LOL


    They remind me more of concentration camp watchtowers. In conventional war they would play zero role. And what makes You think Russia doesn't have towers with modern equipment? Russian border guards do. 

    They rely a lot more than anything on watchtowers to spot from where attack came across the border. this is because the resistance they fight use a lot rocket grenades or mortars or missiles  with just 10km to 30km ranges.
    In more than a few scenarios you can spot locations of enemy all the way to 20 to 30km away that is firing artillery.
    Terrain is different in Israel. Look it up on the maps. Size of the border is different too. 


    1)So smerch are not ideal for monitoring your border.

    What do You mean? 

    2)Drones are not ideal either for monitoring if they are being shot down.
    Drones are inexpensive and easily replaced. What do You suggest? Pigeons? Border guards of all world are using UAVs for long time, but suddenly You came out and said that all world was wrong.

    3)AIrforce flying close the border is risky ,if the border is very hostile and armed with manpads.
    But sending attack helicopters towards last known artillery position located by visual means is ok in your book Very Happy Guess who is in more trouble facing manpads - small target like UAV, fast and high flying jet or.. helicopter?


    Russia is being attacked from visual distance ,from 10km to 20km away..and artillery fire ,the flame from the artillery can be spotted with plain sight ~30km away. exactly like the videos recently uploaded.

    Weapon locating radars can pinpoint exact coordinates of multiple firing systems and even predict where shells will land. If they are linked to artillery unit, they would get XYHVE coordinates without going through all fire discipline procedures which means instant counter battery fire.

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