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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

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    macedonian
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  macedonian on Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:15 pm

    Oh, c'mon guys NO ONE?! Just a straight answer: ARE WE WINNING OR LOSING?!

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:27 pm

    You're losing.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  medo on Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:29 pm

    macedonian wrote:Oh, c'mon guys NO ONE?! Just a straight answer: ARE WE WINNING OR LOSING?!

    The battle is still going. Slavyansk fall to Ukrainian forces, but Strelkov's brigade successfully retreat from Slavynsk to Kramators, so they are not encircled and destroyed.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:38 pm

    Without a large influx of weapons they never had a chance in the first place. The best they can hope for is prolonging the war fo some time longer but how much? A week? Two?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:53 pm

    macedonian wrote:Oh, c'mon guys NO ONE?! Just a straight answer: ARE WE WINNING OR LOSING?!

    Put the crap aside, we are winning big time.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Firebird on Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:10 pm

    I think Russia and Novorossiya need to think about other aspects too.
    Including the ones of justice. What will be the penalty for the Western Ukraine, the American troublemakers, and the worst elements in the EU.

    You cant overthrow a democracy, murder innocents on their own land, and get away with it.
    Otherwise they'll do it 5, 10 times as much.

    I cant understand why there hasn't been more guerilla style warfare. Its clear William Wanker from the chocolate factory just wants to terrorize, and vandalise factories, schools etc.
    I don't understand why we aren't seeing incidents in Lvov, Kiev, all over the (former IMO!) Ukraine.

    This would force the junta and its friends to "concentrate their minds", so to speak.

    The last 100 yrs or more has seen gigantic ethnic cleansing of any groups that aren't Lvov style Ukrainian nationalists. Surely there is only one way to remedy this sort of injustice? Ethnic cleansing invalidates soft power, and invalidates, even prevents democratic solutions. All the more reason for Russia to intervene and resolve the problem once and for all.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  macedonian on Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:30 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:You're losing.

    Oh, we might lose a battle only to win the war, but YOU'VE lost with certainty Johny English... Laughing

    medo wrote:The battle is still going. Slavyansk fall to Ukrainian forces, but Strelkov's brigade successfully retreat from Slavynsk to Kramators, so they are not encircled and destroyed.
    Najlepša hvala, brat Medo.
    I think it's a tactical retreat. Or at least I hope it is...I really respect this Strelkov fellow, so you can pretty much call me biased.

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    macedonian wrote:Oh, c'mon guys NO ONE?! Just a straight answer: ARE WE WINNING OR LOSING?!

    Put the crap aside, we are winning big time.

    Must say I agree. I feel really optimistic lately.

    Thanks all you guys.
    Cheers.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:38 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    1. Drones are NOT easy to destroy even with up to date AA, which Ukraine doesn't have many.

    2. Depending on height and installed equipment, watchtowers are not that cheap.

    3. Kiev fighters can attack a watchtower AND civilians simultaneously, so it may not be that worth it.

    4. Russia already has a justification for retaliation even without having any damned towers  Rolling Eyes


    Drones can be shotdown easily.. if Talibans shot down 400 in afganistan in 10 years,i do not see how can Ukraine army cannot do it.  Rolling Eyes 

    Watch towers can be millions of times cheaper than a drone ,just a piece of large metal with a camera on top ,how hard that is? are you fucking kidding that Russia should be scared in his own territory to deploy cameras on border to enhance their nation security ,because they could be attacked? Please better don't argue with silly arguments next time.  If Russia deploy small Cameras to observe 30 km inside Ukraine ,and they shot , that can only be done with a sniper rifle at distance and Russian border guards will catch who do it.. To defeat a watchtower with artillery at 20 to 30km is wishful thinking for them with the fail accuracy  they have shown in eastern ukraine.  But even if they could do it with their artillery and Ukraine army shoot at the cameras ,every day ,then Russia will not have to wait anymore to understand that kiev have declared war on them. and Russia will be on its FULL legitimacy rights under international laws to retaliate and kick the kiev army that is attacking its borders and declare a buffer zone for its protection.

    "Millions of times cheaper", you say?

    Then how come  that very few, if at all, militaries, border guard institutions, various other agencies seem to use these watchtowers on applications you suggest?
    And at the same time, same people are very happy to use drones, even more, billions of USD are being spent for their further improvements and wider introduction.

    Remember, vann7, when there are only two options- either it's you who's stupid, or the rest of the world, most likely it's the former  Wink

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  medo on Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:50 pm

    macedonian wrote:I think it's a tactical retreat. Or at least I hope it is...I really respect this Strelkov fellow, so you can pretty much call me biased.

    I'm sure it is, as retreat went organized with all heavy equipment it for sure is tactical retreat and not defeat. I always think, Novorussian forces have few thousand soldiers, but when I see they have around 12.000 soldiers, what is 1 infantry division, than situation is not that bad as it seems. Of course they need more weapons to form more units, but even forming and equipping that big force in few months is a big achievement so there is a hope for Novorussia.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  macedonian on Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:54 pm

    medo wrote:
    macedonian wrote:I think it's a tactical retreat. Or at least I hope it is...I really respect this Strelkov fellow, so you can pretty much call me biased.

    I'm sure it is, as retreat went organized with all heavy equipment it for sure is tactical retreat and not defeat. I always think, Novorussian forces have few thousand soldiers, but when I see they have around 12.000 soldiers, what is 1 infantry division, than situation is not that bad as it seems. Of course they need more weapons to form more units, but even forming and equipping that big force in few months is a big achievement so there is a hope for Novorussia.

    Wow 12.000 men?!
    That's quite a high estimate, even for a believer like me.
    I hope they do have that number of people in their ranks, but (for the time being, at least) paint me skeptical.
    Still hope you're right though...

     russia


    ------------------
    Edit:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Remember, vann7, when there are only two options- either it's you who's stupid, or the rest of the world, most likely it's the former Wink

    Perhaps it doesn't apply in the current situation, but there never was a genius in this world who hasn't heard that same sentence being said to him at least twice.
    Just sayin'.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  medo on Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:13 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    medo wrote:
    macedonian wrote:I think it's a tactical retreat. Or at least I hope it is...I really respect this Strelkov fellow, so you can pretty much call me biased.

    I'm sure it is, as retreat went organized with all heavy equipment it for sure is tactical retreat and not defeat. I always think, Novorussian forces have few thousand soldiers, but when I see they have around 12.000 soldiers, what is 1 infantry division, than situation is not that bad as it seems. Of course they need more weapons to form more units, but even forming and equipping that big force in few months is a big achievement so there is a hope for Novorussia.

    Wow 12.000 men?!
    That's quite a high estimate, even for a believer like me.
    I hope they do have that number of people in their ranks, but (for the time being, at least) paint me skeptical.
    Still hope you're right though...

     russia


    ------------------
    Edit:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Remember, vann7, when there are only two options- either it's you who's stupid, or the rest of the world, most likely it's the former  Wink

    Perhaps it doesn't apply in the current situation, but there never was a genius in this world who hasn't heard that same sentence being said to him at least twice.
    Just sayin'.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqJtZ7SuPRo

    From the video link I post before, they have around 2000 soldiers under Strelkov command in Slavyansk and Kramatorsk, around 1000 soldiers in Lisichansk under command of Mozgovov, in Lugansk they have 5000 soldiers under command of Bolotov, in Donetsk thay have more than 3000 soldiers under command of Hodorkovsk and around 500 soldiers in Gorlovka under command of Bezlev and count here troops around the border and there is around 12.000 soldiers. Number was quite surprising. I thought before they have only around 3000-5000 soldiers.

    They need to arm one or two more divisions and Ukrainian army will be in big trouble. I think they will. If they arm one division, they will also arm more divisions.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Austin on Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:14 pm

    Brzezinski calls to isolate Russia, urges US to arm Ukrainian military

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  medo on Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:18 pm

    Austin wrote:Brzezinski calls to isolate Russia, urges US to arm Ukrainian military

    There is also a rebellion in Saudi Arabia. I hope it will soon fall to Islamic Caliphate. Let me see, what US will do then?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:32 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:

    "Millions of times cheaper", you say?

    Then how come  that very few, if at all, militaries, border guard institutions, various other agencies seem to use these watchtowers on applications you suggest?
    And at the same time, same people are very happy to use drones, even more, billions of USD are being spent for their further improvements and wider introduction.

    Remember, vann7, when there are only two options- either it's you who's stupid, or the rest of the world, most likely it's the former  Wink

    LOL.. your problems is your slow on critical thinking , i even doubt you have any.. because you make comments without any thinking at all. .Why would Europe have no need for watchtowers at their borders? perhaps because they do not have enemies shelling their borders?

    You only need watchtowers , when your nation is attacked by artillery ,mortars or rockets in the borders. Israel have elevated watchtowers near Syria and lebanon spying deep inside their territories.




    http://palestinesolidarityproject.org/2011/06/05/israeli-soldiers-police-take-positions-at-entrance-to-beit-ommar/

    Now who is the stupid?

    An drone can survive machine gun attacks can cost $US 4 millions and toy drones can be shot by any machine gun. but drones do not fly 24 hours or can see everything at the same time . A a few watchtowers with cameras in Rostov near Ukraine should be more than enough to monitor who is doing what and from where come the attacks.

    here is cheaper watchtower near Golan heights in Syria by israel again...



    Now the question should be why Israel ,that have so many modern drones , an iron dome ,anti artillery weapons and every technology available from nato ,why they bother building watchtowers across all their border? Perhaps they know something you don't now.. and watchtowers are indeed very useful contrary to what you think.

    Russia have been attacked on its borders not one ,not two but about 4 times already in 4 different days and still
    they have no clue of who did it , no filmed evidence of who is attacking them , and worse of all civilians in hospital because their incompetence of not defending their territory. With a network of cheap high watchtowers with infra red cameras they could spot with accuracy from where came the attack and retaliate on that same spot.. while recording the attack for evidence to UN. and watch towers to do not crash as easily like drones ,you can repair them in hours if they attacked.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:50 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  macedonian on Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:38 pm

    Austin wrote:Brzezinski calls to isolate Russia, urges US to arm Ukrainian military

    Yes, I've read that when it first came out on the "The American Interest", and all I saw was a deep hatred for anything Russian by that man. Even his analysis is deeply flawed because of that (I want to believe) attitude.
    As an Orthodox Christian, it really pains me to see people who are nearing death having such hatred in their hearts. Not only for Russia, but for whomever.
    Can't write more (the article really merits a longer reply), but I'll leave you with the thought that when losers are losing - they're always pretending to be winning.
    Especially men who based their careers on hating someone or something...they would just be out of a job if it wasn't for Russia. They should be thankful.

    Oh, but they think they have their legacy to worry about...so that's that than...
    Sad, sad people. Hate is no way of leading a proper life. They never learn though, do they? One foot in the grave, and still it's hatred the driving force behind them.
    Such sorry bastards (if I may be honest).

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:40 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:

    "Millions of times cheaper", you say?

    Then how come  that very few, if at all, militaries, border guard institutions, various other agencies seem to use these watchtowers on applications you suggest?
    And at the same time, same people are very happy to use drones, even more, billions of USD are being spent for their further improvements and wider introduction.

    Remember, vann7, when there are only two options- either it's you who's stupid, or the rest of the world, most likely it's the former  Wink

    LOL.. your problems is your slow on critical thinking , i even doubt you have any.. because you make comments without any thinking at all. .What would Europe do not have watchtowers at their borders? perhaps because they do not have enemies shelling their borders?

    You only need watchtowers , when your nation is attacked by artillery ,mortars or rockets in the borders. Israel have elevated watchtowers near Syria and lebanon spying deep inside their territories.


    Now who is the stupid?

    An drone can survive machine gun attacks can cost $US 4 millions and toy drones can be shot by any machine gun. but drones do not fly 24 hours or can see everything at the same time . A a few watchtowers with cameras in Rostov near Ukraine should be more than enough to monitor who is doing what and from where come the attacks.

    here is cheaper watchtower near Golan heights in Syria by israel again...

    How hard can be for Russia to build such structure? Not even 1 day will take Russia to build one with enough altitude to observe 30km inside Ukraine territory. if the tower attacked it will be an act of war , with the difference that the authors of the attack will be know in detail ,recorded on video their attack.. And watch towers to do not crash like drones ,you can easily repair them if attacked.

    Smile

    Please read my and your comments again.
    I never said that watchtowers are not viable at all, I said that they're not viable precisely for the purpose you suggested.

    And that is a deep observation of foreign territory.
    You mentioned the observation range of 30km. For that, your watchtower needs to be about 150m high, and that is MUCH higher than the towers you linked here.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  TheGeorgian on Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:17 pm

    medo wrote:
    They need to arm one or two more divisions and Ukrainian army will be in big trouble. I think they will. If they arm one division, they will also arm more divisions.

    I hope not ! with all due respect .... I can respect that people choose sides etc, but this war has to end and not with further bloodshed. More divisions ? you want an all out war in Ukraine with tens of thousands of dead ? no Sir. I hope that rebellion ends and both them and the Ukrainian army can go home in peace. More compromises, more talks, more decent discussions, less pew pew and tears plse.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  medo on Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:26 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsVSq84R_Cw

    Novorussian army get some supplies from Ukrainian army (boots, armor vests, helmets, night vision binoculars, radios).


    TheGeorgian wrote:I hope not ! with all due respect .... I can respect that people choose sides etc, but this war has to end and not with further bloodshed. More divisions ? you want an all out war in Ukraine with tens of thousands of dead ? no Sir. I hope that rebellion ends and both them and the Ukrainian army can go home in peace. More compromises, more talks, more decent discussions, less pew pew and tears plse.

    This war and bloodshed will end only with defeat of Ukrainian army. In opposite, there will be a genocide against SE Ukrainans. Only defeat will bring Kiev to negotiations and peace with forming two independent states. Anything else means constant war.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Regular on Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:31 pm

    n7 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:

    "Millions of times cheaper", you say?

    Then how come  that very few, if at all, militaries, border guard institutions, various other agencies seem to use these watchtowers on applications you suggest?
    And at the same time, same people are very happy to use drones, even more, billions of USD are being spent for their further improvements and wider introduction.

    Remember, vann7, when there are only two options- either it's you who's stupid, or the rest of the world, most likely it's the former  Wink

    LOL.. your problems is your slow on critical thinking , i even doubt you have any.. because you make comments without any thinking at all. .Why would Europe have no need for watchtowers at their borders? perhaps because they do not have enemies shelling their borders?

    You only need watchtowers , when your nation is attacked by artillery ,mortars or rockets in the borders. Israel have elevated watchtowers near Syria and lebanon spying deep inside their territories.



    http://palestinesolidarityproject.org/2011/06/05/israeli-soldiers-police-take-positions-at-entrance-to-beit-ommar/

    Now who is the stupid?

    An drone can survive machine gun attacks can cost $US 4 millions and toy drones can be shot by any machine gun. but drones do not fly 24 hours or can see everything at the same time . A a few watchtowers with cameras in Rostov near Ukraine should be more than enough to monitor who is doing what and from where come the attacks.

    here is cheaper watchtower near Golan heights in Syria by israel again...


    Now the question should be why Israel ,that have so many modern drones , an iron dome ,anti artillery weapons and every technology available from nato ,why they bother building watchtowers across all their border? Perhaps they know something you don't now.. and watchtowers are indeed very useful contrary to what you think.

    Russia have been attacked on its borders not one ,not two but about 4 times already in 4 different days and still
    they have no clue of who did it , no filmed evidence of who is attacking them , and worse of all civilians in hospital because their incompetence of not defending their territory. With a network of cheap high watchtowers with infra red cameras they could spot with accuracy from where came the attack and retaliate on that same spot.. while recording the attack for evidence to UN. and watch towers to do not crash as easily like drones ,you can repair them in hours if they attacked.
    Listen, for Your own sake stop talking about such nonsense as new super idea. Like You were first one that came up with such groundbreaking mega construction. Stop enforcing it on people who have a doubts about it.
    Have You ever worked with border guards? Observation towers are already widely used by Russia. I seen shitloads of them from my country.
    Now You are trying to reinvent the bicycle. But take into account terrain, take into account constitutional weakness of mega tower You are proposing. 


    Now Russia is using UAVs too. One was downed in Ukraine 5 days ago. Downed by AK fire they say. I bet it was flying very low as it's very hard to get a hit on such small UAV

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  TheGeorgian on Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:38 pm

    medo wrote:
    This war and bloodshed will end only with defeat of Ukrainian army. In opposite, there will be a genocide against SE Ukrainans. Only defeat will bring Kiev to negotiations and peace with forming two independent states. Anything else means constant war.

    BS

    I can see why compromises with the separatists are not very fruitful if that is how they try to justify taking arms in order to translate their demands in action. Assumptions and predictions. What does the mighty oracle predict next ? meteor shower .... ?


    Last edited by TheGeorgian on Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Regular on Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:38 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:
    medo wrote:
    They need to arm one or two more divisions and Ukrainian army will be in big trouble. I think they will. If they arm one division, they will also arm more divisions.

    I hope not ! with all due respect .... I can respect that people choose sides etc, but this war has to end and not with further bloodshed. More divisions ? you want an all out war in Ukraine with tens of thousands of dead ? no Sir. I hope that rebellion ends and both them and the Ukrainian army can go home in peace. More compromises, more talks, more decent discussions, less pew pew and tears plse.
    x2 same here as this is getting really stretched out. I would rather see fast war with precision strikes than all out brawls as it is now

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  TheGeorgian on Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:46 pm

    Something else though. Is there a detailed briefing about that confrontation in Sloviansk ? Like the separatist leader claims they had to retreat because of massive artillery and air strikes. Was there also close quarter battle and such ? I can't imagine they only retreated because of shelling. I've heard they lost two of their tanks they had taken from one of the Ukr army bases and also one BMP-1/2. Is that right ?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:53 pm

    [quote="Regular"][quote="n7"]
    etaepsilonk wrote:

    Observation towers are already widely used by Russia.

    Now Russia is using UAVs too. One was downed in Ukraine 5 days ago. Downed by AK fire they say. I bet it was flying very low as it's very hard to get a hit on such small UAV

    Widely used ,but they are not deployed in the place they need to be used to monitor what happens at their border ... Reason why they have no fucking clue of who exactly attacked them And the drone being shot down clearly proof your idea is pretty useless ,im not suggesting giving free technology to Ukraine or NATO .A watchtower do not crash like a drone .and is pretty fucking cheap. Why you all dont get a fucking clue ,that watchtowers are super useful ,and Russia if they had them ,at the right place in Rostov bordern they could have spotted in the moment who is bombing them several times for more than a week.  WHen Israel its border is attacked ,they can immediately pin point the place the attack came and retaliate.. why Russia cannot know in detail who is bombing with artillery them? and needs to do "investigations".? Is not rocket science , Russia is being attacked ,people is at hospital and they do nothing to prevent any more attacks to continue  ,neither have a fucking clue the location of the attack ,is not filming either the Ukraine artillery activites in their border.. and drones is not going to solve the problems. period. GO and watch your own video ,proof my point that drones are not the best way to monitor their borders ,because they are heavily crowded with an enemy army ready to shoot down anything that enters their airspace. And several watchtowers in the other hand cannot be taken down by regular machine guns ,they need several artillery attacks on Russia territory that is an act of war. and will legitimize A retaliation from the place the attack comes. No one is asking for Re-invention of the wheel but more intelligent use of the tools they already have. that Russia monitor their fucking territory and prevent ANY other attack from Ukraine. is that too much to ask?  Rolling Eyes 

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:12 pm

    To vann7:

    Just to give you the idea about the size of your required watchtower
    Funkturm Berlin, 150m  Smile 


    And how many would be required to build in order to cover 1300km of Russia- Ukraine border?  Smile

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #5

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

    TheGeorgian wrote:
    medo wrote:
    This war and bloodshed will end only with defeat of Ukrainian army. In opposite, there will be a genocide against SE Ukrainans. Only defeat will bring Kiev to negotiations and peace with forming two independent states. Anything else means constant war.

    BS

    I can see why compromises with the separatists are not very fruitful if that is how they try to justify taking arms in order to translate their demands in action. Assumptions and predictions. What does the mighty oracle predict next ? meteor shower .... ?

    The people you defend , wants Russia to invade.
    They are doing everything to provoke Russia from burning russians alive as they did in Odessa , from oligarks paying per kill of every russia ,from bombing cities ,schools ,hospitals killing civilians womens and children. Is a plain genocide what the kiev army is doing. Even the american CNN media ,the people you support ,have reports of Ukrainian Airforce directly bombing civilians in parks.. with womens cut in parts. So i do not think there will be any peace at all if Rebels defeated. Thats when the ethnic cleansin will start. And all eastern Ukrainians deported to other cities and their properties taken.

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