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    Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:49 pm

    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    SOSNA and Kornet and Vikhr are the same, but they are looking back at a laser and determining where they are in the beam in a similar way... they manouver themselves in to the centre of the beam..

    Is Russia going to introduce a GPS/GLONASS guided artillery shell, like the M982 Excalibur ? Satellite guided shells have benefits.
    GLONASS shells have existed since 2011, and they've been discussed in dozens of threads, and their 25 to 40 times cheaper than the US GPS equivalent shells.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:19 am

    They have developed a new nose mounted fuse system with control surfaces for 152mm and larger calibre artillery rounds that includes a GLONASS navigation system receiver and can be used to direct shells on to targets. CEP is reportedly 10m, which is pretty damn good.

    Note a CEP of 10m means a volley of shots fired by Coalition battery, means each gun could fire 6 or more shells at the target and all those shells will hit at once... with 6 vehicles that would mean the impact of more than 36 shells in a 10m circle... I would say most things in that circle are dead... but of course being guided they might just allocate one vehicle per target with perhaps 2-3 shells per target to be sure of the result.

    Of course they also have a range of guided gun launched missile shells from 120mm Gran, to 122mm Kitilov, and of course the 152mm Krasnopol, and also rounds for the larger calibres like 160mm, 180mm, 203mm and 240mm they still use.

    They also have guided Naval rounds in large calibres but technology in 57mm guided shells could probably be applied to larger calibre guns to allow larger HE payloads in those rounds.

    And while the US is busting their budget with guided shells like the very expensive Excalibur... which costs 10 times more than Metis BTW, they are also not even bothering with the new gun system on their new ships because their guided shells cost $800K each... so they aren't buying any ammo for their guns.

    Like I said... the Russians are well known for taking good ideas and solving problems without gold plating the solutions and making them affordable...
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:27 am

    They are developing a range of autonomous terminal guidance seekers for missiles like Hermes and this new air to ground missile on the Mi-28NM... one assumes something like that could be fitted to larger calibre artillery too.
    RTN
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    Post  RTN on Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:24 pm

    GarryB wrote:Note a CEP of 10m means a volley of shots fired by Coalition battery, means each gun could fire 6 or more shells at the target and all those shells will hit at once...

    CEP of 10m is not that great unless of course you are using 160mm, 180mm, 203mm and 240mm calibre shells. On the other hand Excalibur has a CEP < 4 meters. So a single 155mm shot ensures that the target is take out.

    BTW - Why is the Russian Army still using 160mm, 203mm and 240mm shells ? World has moved onto 155mm shells a long time ago. Makes perfect sense. You can use these shells with the M-777 light howitzers and PzH 2000 self propelled howitzers.

    GarryB wrote:And while the US is busting their budget with guided shells like the very expensive Excalibur... which costs 10 times more than Metis BTW,

    Granted that Excalibur is expensive. But why would you suggest that Russian GLONASS guided artillery shells will be much cheaper ?
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    Post  RTN on Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:38 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    GLONASS shells have existed since 2011, and they've been discussed in dozens of threads, and their 25 to 40 times cheaper than the US GPS equivalent shells.

    I could not find any thread dedicated to GLONASS guided artillery shell in this forum.

    Cheaper than US versions by 25 to 40 multiple ? That's not possible. Essentially the same tech. How come they are so cheap ?
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:33 am

    CEP of 10m is not that great unless of course you are using 160mm, 180mm, 203mm and 240mm calibre shells. On the other hand Excalibur has a CEP < 4 meters. So a single 155mm shot ensures that the target is take out.

    It is going to be the standard fuse for their 152mm shells, so all standard and long range shells will get this level of performance.

    There are targets a single 155mm shell is not good enough to take out on its own.

    BTW - Why is the Russian Army still using 160mm, 203mm and 240mm shells ?

    Why is the US Army using M113s?

    They returned 203mm and 240mm calibre weapons for specific roles, and AFAIK the 160mm mortars have never left their mountain unit arsenals.

    World has moved onto 155mm shells a long time ago. Makes perfect sense.

    Why would Russia adopt a foreign calibre? Their 152mm calibre guns are fine.

    You can use these shells with the M-777 light howitzers and PzH 2000 self propelled howitzers.

    Russia doesn't have or make either of those.

    Granted that Excalibur is expensive. But why would you suggest that Russian GLONASS guided artillery shells will be much cheaper ?

    Because they revealed the price a few years ago and they are much much cheaper... the fuse system is about $1,000 which is 50-80 times cheaper than Excalibur... but Excalibur is a complete round, while the Russian system is a fuse and guidance system that can be attached to the nose of any 152mm calibre round.

    Cheaper than US versions by 25 to 40 multiple ? That's not possible. Essentially the same tech. How come they are so cheap ?

    They developed a way of controlling the shell without having to stop it from spinning, and it is not a complete round... it is a fuse and control surface kit that attaches to the nose fuse position of standard rounds.

    You can attach it to already produced 152mm rounds or any type.

    This is off topic BTW so will likely move some or all of it somewhere else.
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:18 pm

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    Last edited by jhelb on Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:09 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Comment posted on the wrong thread, hence deleted)
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:27 pm

    RTN wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    GLONASS shells have existed since 2011, and they've been discussed in dozens of threads, and their 25 to 40 times cheaper than the US GPS equivalent shells.

    I could not find any thread dedicated to GLONASS guided artillery shell in this forum.

    Cheaper than US versions by 25 to 40 multiple ? That's not possible. Essentially the same tech. How come they are so cheap ?

    Are you seriously asking this question?

    Think hard for a moment.

    No, the bombs aren't the same. Because one is made in Russia and one is made in USA. Tack on a multiplier for US made one vs Russian. Plus Glonass and GPS tracking devices are rather cheap these days.
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:They are developing a range of autonomous terminal guidance seekers for missiles like Hermes and this new air to ground missile on the Mi-28NM... one assumes something like that could be fitted to larger calibre artillery too.

    And will these missiles be GLONASS guided ?
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:07 am

    There were plans to include Glonass in some of the seekers... the advantage of which is that a forward deployed unit could passively locate targets and pass their coordinates to HQ via the Ratnik super soldier system... with this information passed from HQ to a platform on the battlefield near those coordinates they could launch in this case a Hermes missile which will head to the target location... as it approaches it can turn on its TV or IIR seeker to find the target and then hit it directly. Or with a cheap optical guidance system it can look for a laser spot on the target from a nearby unit or UAV. Or it could scan with its MMW radar seeker and find the target and hit it that way.

    If the platform is a Coalition battery then firing off a salvo of cheap GLONASS guided shells... HQ could simply generate a grid around the target coordinates... which might be a platoon of enemy soldiers dug in to position or in buildings... the HQ creates a grid around that position with a 4m or 5m grid base and then order that Coalition battery to fire two rounds at each node of the grid all to impact at the same time, with airburst shells bursting at 2m altitudes for troops in the open or in open topped trenches, or delay fuses for buildings and trenches with roof cover...

    Excalibur would be far too expensive for such area targets because you will know the location and the extent of the trenches but you wont know where the people are, so you just need an even coverage on target to arrive together so there is no time to take cover.

    Once they take cover you will need thousands of rounds and days to get them all.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:57 am


    Mi-35P Fenix - newest upgrade. Please note this one has again longer wings and retractable landing gear ! new materials, avionics and new composite rotor blades (not in first example tho). Also , “Vitebsk” is an onboard defense system option.





    BTW here the author claims that GSh-23 - twin barrel gun has muzzle velocity 750m/s not 715m/s as in wiki.

    https://topwar.ru/48532-otechestvennye-poslevoennye-aviacionnye-pushki-kalibra-23-mm-chast-ii.html
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:29 am

    It is probably an upgrade of an older model Hind that retains the old larger wing and retractable undercarriage...

    Regarding the 23mm nose mounted cannon, it might be new ammo with plastic driving bands on the shells that increases muzzle velocity... either way the difference is not enormous and would have little practical effect on its effect on ground targets... I would assume the aiming fire control system would compensate for the muzzle velocity so rounds will still impact on target... the main round is a HE Frag so a minor increase in muzzle velocity wont effect performance very much.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:It is probably an upgrade of an older model Hind that retains the old larger wing and retractable undercarriage...

    Regarding the 23mm nose mounted cannon, it might be new ammo with plastic driving bands on the shells that increases muzzle velocity... either way the difference is not enormous and would have little practical effect on its effect on ground targets... I would assume the aiming fire control system would compensate for the muzzle velocity so rounds will still impact on target... the main round is a HE Frag so a minor increase in muzzle velocity wont effect performance very much.

    It's an upgrade of the Mi-24P

    And I wonder if it's not the new VDV 'flying BMP' that there was talk about modifying a Mi-24 into
    The VDV's new air mobile brigades are slated to be equipped with Mi-35s to transport troops, conduct recon and provide fire-support.
    This aircraft compared to the Mi-35M seems to focus on lighter armament and long-range optics/visuals.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:50 pm

    It has the old wings, instead of missile rails it carries pods with sensors for the self-defence suit. Much better then the ugly covers on the cheeks of the Mi-35M.

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    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:39 am

    They tried Hinds for troop transport but found access in and out meant they spend too long sitting on the ground vulnerable... an Mi8/17/38 is a much bigger target but with better access from side and rear access points for the number of troops involved they are much better.

    The armed helos can then do what they do... prowl around daring the enemy to poke their heads up so they can cut them off.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:52 am

    GarryB wrote:They tried Hinds for troop transport but found access in and out meant they spend too long sitting on the ground vulnerable... an Mi8/17/38 is a much bigger target but with better access from side and rear access points for the number of troops involved they are much better.

    The armed helos can then do what they do... prowl around daring the enemy to poke their heads up so they can cut them off.

    I heard, but the VDV is still planning to use Mi-35s in the airborne IFV role
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:47 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    GarryB wrote:They tried Hinds for troop transport but found access in and out meant they spend too long sitting on the ground vulnerable... an Mi8/17/38 is a much bigger target but with better access from side and rear access points for the number of troops involved they are much better.

    The armed helos can then do what they do... prowl around daring the enemy to poke their heads up so they can cut them off.

    I heard, but the VDV is still planning to use Mi-35s in the airborne IFV role
    I'd rather give that niche roll for the new Mi-38/Ka-62. Mi-24/35's 'troop' compartment to fit the transport role, I'd much rather have future modernizations focus on converting that compartment in to a belt feed/connect ammo storage, with the 57mm grenade launcher replacing the chin mounted gun. Not to be mistaken for the 57mm autocannon, the 57mm grenade launcher would have low enough recoil to be riggedly placed on the chin to be accurate enough for 3 round burst fire. Specially made shells could be made in to missiles, with laser guidance, should be absolutely devastating!
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:51 pm

    A good tribute to them: http://nvo.ng.ru/nvoevents/2020-02-19/100_200219news4.html?print=Y

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