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    Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

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    Vladimir79
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    Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:08 am

    Rostvertol: Defense Ministry plans to supply 22 helicopters Mi-35M at 10-12 billion rubles.

    Rostvertol Defense Ministry plans to supply 22 helicopters Mi-35M, totaling 10-12 billion rubles, said General Director Boris Slusar at the annual meeting of shareholders in 2009.

    "The Ministry of Defence ordered the Mi-35M for the first time for myself. Do the math, it turns 10-12 billion rubles. We are obliged to execute this program," - he said.

    B. Slusar noted that preliminary agreement regarding the supply of helicopters have been achieved during the visit of Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov to the company in December 2009.

    http://www.avia.ru/news/?id=1275923472

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:15 am

    That is unusual as the Mi-35M is a for export model.

    I believe it is the latest model with features of the Mi-28N on it like new main and tail rotor and wing, and a chin mounted turret with a twin barrel 23mm cannon as fitted to the last model production Hinds.

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:17 am

    GarryB wrote:That is unusual as the Mi-35M is a for export model.

    It isn't unusual when we are experiencing issues with Mi-28N. If we can't get that helicopter mass produced we have little choice.

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:40 am

    Let me rephrase that then... it is unusual for them to call the Hind they are ordering by its export designation rather than the Russian designation used, which is Mi-24xx.

    It doesn't surprise me that they are having issues with the Mi-28N, it is a very ambitious design.

    I would be happier to hear the decision that the army aviation forces were handed back to the control of the Army where they belong.

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    Mi-35 Modernization

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:59 pm

    That sounds interesting.

    Mi-35M2 modernisation programm

    Currently, a comprehensive program is being carried out to modernize mass-production helicopters Mi-35 (the Mi-35M2 program). The modernization program is aimed at enhancing the helicopter's flight performance and combat capabilities, involving:

    day/night combat employment of guided and unguided weapons in VFR and IFR weather conditions;
    day/night flying at extremely low altitudes;
    en-route low-altitude flight with a target approach in the assigned area with a required accuracy.

    As to its airframe design, flight performance characteristics and weapon complement the Mi-35M2 is identical with the Mi-35M.

    The modernized version is powered with upgraded altitude engines TV3-117VMA-SB3. Armor protection can be enhanced at customer's request. A 12.7mm machine gun is installed at the cargo compartment door opening.

    The modernized helicopter's avionics includes:

    a multifunctional display;
    a satellite navigation station;
    a 3D electronic terrain map;
    a night surveillance and fire control radar; a helmet-mounted target designator;
    night goggles.

    The Mi-35M2 program envisages a stepwise enhancement of the helicopter combat capabilities, as well as installation of offered equipment and system components in any combination at customer's request.

    http://www.jetdiscovery.com/wiki/mi-35m2-modernization

    This side looks just like a information database, so i guess this are russian modernisation, the odd thing is what i heared is that Mi-35M3 will recieve all sensor packages with MAWS,LWR and RWR like Mi-28N, but never heared of a radar, i'll need more informations.

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:24 pm

    In this case it might just mean an upgraded Shturm/Ataka guidance transmitter that allows the use of Krisantema, rather than a mast mounted radar system.

    Of course if they have successfully designed a mast mounted radar system that works there is no reason not to put it on Hinds as well as Havocs.

    Keep in mind that attack helos have gone for decades without radars and even the US did not fit Longbow radars to all AH-64D Longbow Apache helos because of the cost.... and the fact that they didn't actually all need them.

    It just makes sense for them to transfer all the new stuff they have developed for the Mi-28N and Mi-28NM to the older helos as it increases production numbers, improves commonality and training and maintainence issues and also increases performance.

    BTW has anyone got any footage of a Hind firing its chin turret mounted twin 23mm gun?

    I have seen the twin 30mm cannon (very impressive as it is a very powerful weapon), but I don't remember seeing the GSh-23 being used... it has much smaller propellent capacity and would be of a lower velocity than the 30mm guns but it fires at a very high rate with heavy projectiles for the calibre that should be devastating on target.


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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:50 pm

    In this case it might just mean an upgraded Shturm/Ataka guidance transmitter that allows the use of Krisantema, rather than a mast mounted radar system.

    Of course if they have successfully designed a mast mounted radar system that works there is no reason not to put it on Hinds as well as Havocs.

    There was already a project for equipping Mi-24's with Fire Control Radar of the type Scorpion an ukrainian made radar in MMW-bandwith with about 5km effective classification and guidance by year 1988/89 and in same year funds were stopped through cuts.

    Link here
    http://lreri.tripod.com/
    Download the 3.8 mb file of their products and on page 8 of the modernisation of Cobra and Ataka missiles through miniature radio guidance command to page-10 describes:

    ENTERPRISEFrom the early eighties the LRERI began to work on creation of the millimeter-wave band (MMW) radar aids designed for search, detection and high-precision measurement of coordinates of ground targets as a component of ground and onboard weapon complexes; navigation safety control of ground aids, helicopters, sea and river vessels, ballistic preparation fire support.These aids expand the high-precision weapon combat capabilities by:

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:50 pm

    In this case it might just mean an upgraded Shturm/Ataka guidance transmitter that allows the use of Krisantema, rather than a mast mounted radar system.

    Of course if they have successfully designed a mast mounted radar system that works there is no reason not to put it on Hinds as well as Havocs.

    There was already a project for equipping Mi-24's with Fire Control Radar of the type Scorpion an ukrainian made radar in MMW-bandwith with about 5km effective classification and guidance by year 1988/89 and in same year funds were stopped through cuts.

    Link here
    http://lreri.tripod.com/
    Download the 3.8 mb file of their products and on page 8 of the modernisation of Cobra and Ataka missiles through miniature radio guidance command to page-10 describes:

    ENTERPRISEFrom the early eighties the LRERI began to work on creation of the millimeter-wave band (MMW) radar aids designed for search, detection and high-precision measurement of coordinates of ground targets as a component of ground and onboard weapon complexes; navigation safety control of ground aids, helicopters, sea and river vessels, ballistic preparation fire support.These aids expand the high-precision weapon combat capabilities by:all-day and all-weather application unlike the optical and infra-red band aids high security and noise immunity unlike the RF longer-wavelength means small dimensions and weight of the equipment, allowing to install it on carriers of all classes (ground vehicles, airborne and missile, ammunition)Integration with optical and infrared band means.
    ENTERPRISEThe Institute has developed production of the MMW short wavelength (SW) radar equipment. To this end:wide co-operation of developers and manufacturers of base components and metrological support has been created widespread investigations of the characteristics of the ground target and background radar portraits for the radar equipment construction optimization have been carried out principles of construction and technology of solid-state coherent pulse, pulse and Doppler radars and their components (antenna-feeder devices, transceiver paths, signal and control processor modules) have been developed large-size anechoic chamber (AEC) for developing the MMW radars and their components (50 х12 х8 m) has been created and equipped.

    Further on page 16:
    ENTERPRISEThe LRERI developments for the last years are as follows: creation of the prototype of the small-base passive complex for space radio monitoring and positioning of radio-frequency radiation sources of air and ground objects and the MMW radar-seeker for the aircraft air-to-surface missiles.

    Page 61 has pictures of the "miniature radio command link for anti-tank complexes" and on Page 62 you see it is the Mi-28 Ataka radio command link aswell the recievers for ATGM's launched from various vehicles.

    So indeed what you've suggested this LRERI radars like scorpion version for Hinds were also intented for radar guided missiles


    This data file contains also few informations about radar self-guided ammunition such as 120mm Mortars (page 38) and Shtora and Arena sensoring and radars. (page 87-102) there are lot of other products described for all who are interested.



    Keep in mind that attack helos have gone for decades without radars and even the US did not fit Longbow radars to all AH-64D Longbow Apache helos because of the cost.... and the fact that they didn't actually all need them.

    And on page 68 starting the MMW radar prototypes, it doesn't give lot of information about the specific MMW radars which were during that state under tests,however i personally doubt the MMW radar such of version scorpion were mast-mounded radars,since Hinds would had during 88/89 hard time to proper functional through non composite blades, which also were reason why Apaches had mostly used Laser guided Hellfires rather than FCR, through reliability issues which were unsolved till 2012/13 same goes for Arbalet for Mi-28N.

    It just makes sense for them to transfer all the new stuff they have developed for the Mi-28N and Mi-28NM to the older helos as it increases production numbers, improves commonality and training and maintainence issues and also increases performance.

    I also think it's mostly more effecient to further upgrade existing Hinds with new technologies, they are by far better plattforms for upgrades than the most helicopters and there is always room for special equipment or for reduction of weight through more modern materials like they did with VM/PM models from prior models reducing weight about 1-1.2tones empty weight.

    BTW has anyone got any footage of a Hind firing its chin turret mounted twin 23mm gun?

    Unfortunatley, i couldn't find much.

    PS: Don't know what went wrong by first post tried to edit it and came twice to a double post... dunno


    Last edited by Werewolf on Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:08 am

    Oops mate, they are talking about the command control system already developed and in standard use.

    The first was AT-2 Swatter missiles (Falanga) that uses a radio command signal to direct the missile in flight.

    This results in a higher flight speed than if it dragged a wire for commands, but is also means the launching helo is free to manouver while engaging targets as the wire wont snag on things and break.

    Shturm and Ataka are the next two command guidance missiles and both use a radio command frequency in the 35GHz range which is MMW radar frequency.

    The companys range of equipment in the link you gave is outdated Soviet stuff, the Russian company that makes the radio command missiles (ie ataka and now Kristantema) is this one: http://www.kbm.ru/production/ptrk/

    KBP is also working on MMW radar seekers for HERMES missiles too.


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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:30 am

    I've heard that the soviet MCLOS missiles had worthless chances of a hit(20% at most) but that largely depended on the experience of the operator. Did western operators of MCLOS missiles have better training using them?

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  medo on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:46 am

    Mi-24 and Mi-28 have radio missile guiding antenna in black radome. Krizanthema have similarly big radar antenna and this radar is used to search for targets, tracking targets and guiding Krizanthema missiles on the target. They could replace Sturm/Ataka missile guiding antenna on Mi-28N with krizanthema type radar, that it could be able to search targets with radar and guide missiles with it. Very useful for heavy smoke or fog.

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:44 pm

    The companys range of equipment in the link you gave is outdated Soviet stuff, the Russian company that makes the radio command missiles (ie ataka and now Kristantema) is this one:

    Of course it's outdated GarryB, i was refering to the Mi-24 programm in 1988/89 which was "officially" cut off from funding, but the Scorpion radars of Ukrainian company where used instead of radio command link for Ataka/Shturm ATGM, with limited capability of 3-5km.

    You were refering that they could possibly use masst mounted radar, but i rather doubt it since mast mounted radars have disadvantages in flight performance and the doctrine for "mast mounting sights and radars" are for helicopters with small size and more maneuverable that they can hide more easily behind obstecales, which is even for Mi-35M (Mi-24VM2) not the so easy like for Tigers,Apaches,Havocs or even Black Sharks and Alligators. So this is why i refered to the project of 88/89 which would definitley fit more to a Hind.

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:09 am

    Mast mounted sights are not only for small and manouverable helos... the Mi-40 which was a model of a design they were looking at that combined the Mi-24 with the Mi-28N would have been a very big and heavy helo but it had a MMS.

    To use a MMS you don't need manouverability... any helo can hover behind cover and use a mast mounted system to observe targets.

    Very simply the radar system on Hinds was a command link to guide missiles... anything they might have had in the late 80s would be seriously inferior to what they are fitting to their Mi-28Ns now. There would be no point in resurrecting an old system when new systems have been developed.

    It makes rather more sense to update Hinds with Havoc equipment in terms of cost and commonality.

    I've heard that the soviet MCLOS missiles had worthless chances of a hit(20% at most) but that largely depended on the experience of the operator. Did western operators of MCLOS missiles have better training using them?

    Western operators were just as susceptable to problems like enemy fire putting them off their aim. The US Army missile called Dragon was particularly awful as its propulsion consisted of about 60 odd side thrusting jet modules... as the missile slowly rolled in flight a rocket pointing down and forward was used to keep the missile in the air and on its way to its target and movements by the operator would result in a side thruster firing to get the missile on target. Obviously if you moved the sight around a lot it would run out of thruster modules and the missile would plow into the ground short of the target.

    I have some CNN footage of Mujahadeen forces trying to fire a Milan ATGM at a T-54 tank from a ridgeline a km or so away... they kept missing. The CNN reporter called it artillery.

    The Soviets pioneered the widespread use of guided anti tank missiles and also unguided weapons like RPG etc. Their weapons were very widely deployed and constantly updated... at a time when their performance was low they were at least in widespread service unlike the very expensive western equivalents which were not generally better. Shillalagh is probably the only missile system that has entered and left service, seen several conflicts where it could have been used, yet never used effectively in combat.


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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  medo on Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:05 pm

    Very simply the radar system on Hinds was a command link to guide missiles... anything they might have had in the late 80s would be seriously inferior to what they are fitting to their Mi-28Ns now. There would be no point in resurrecting an old system when new systems have been developed.

    It makes rather more sense to update Hinds with Havoc equipment in terms of cost and commonality.

    I think Hind will no more do the job of tank killer, which will be now in hands of Mi-28N and Ka-52. Hind still poses capability to transport 8 soldiers, so it will be more used in anti insurgent roles or to transport and support small groups of scouts or specials in their missions. For that job it doesn't need radar, but modern night optics for night operations, what Mi-35 have. In case of emergency it could still fight with tanks with Ataka ATGMs.

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:15 am

    Soviet experience with the Hind was that you shouldn't mix troop capacity with gunship capacity.

    The Mi-8/17 can carry a more useful number of troops that can get in and out much much faster and more easily, yet still carry enough firepower to "suppress" the enemy before or after troops are deployed/picked up.

    The Hind on the other hand can not really use its firepower very effectively when coming in and hovering to pick up or deploy troops. It made rather more practical sense for the Hind to shoot and the Hip to pick up or drop off in real combat situations.

    For police operations or anti terrorist missions or deploying a small group of special forces the Hind was a good choice, but most of the time the rear cabin contained reserve ammo.


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    Mi-24/Μi35 Hinds

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:45 am

    Anyone know what this unusual version ofthe Mi-24 is? First time I see it. Looks like it's new...

     Arrow http://russianplanes.net/ID137853

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:51 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Anyone know what this unusual version ofthe Mi-24 is? First time I see it. Looks like it's new...

     Arrow http://russianplanes.net/ID137853

    If i am not mistaken, then this should be the Mi-35M2 (Mi-24VM3) testbed installing scorpion radar in the nose section and like it seems, LWR + jamming pods on wingtip.

    I could be wrong but that seems to be.

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:06 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:Anyone know what this unusual version ofthe Mi-24 is? First time I see it. Looks like it's new...

     Arrow http://russianplanes.net/ID137853

    If i am not mistaken, then this should be the Mi-35M2 (Mi-24VM3) testbed installing scorpion radar in the nose section and like it seems, LWR + jamming pods on wingtip.

    I could be wrong but that seems to be.

    Yes it seems like a prototype/testbed, a serial production Hind would at the very least have a front mounted cannon.

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:09 am

    It might not be meant to have a cannon up front. The bulge on the nose is in the way

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:54 am

    Strange mix of old and new.

    New fixed undercarriage... lighter but more drag, but more safety in crash.

    New radar that looks about the size of the weather radars fitted to Mi-8s.

    Old wings with wing tip pods that appear to contain sensors to detect incoming missiles like the wingtip pods on the Mi-28.

    IR turret.

    Vibration dampners on the main rotor.

    Enlarged windows.

    I would guess VIP transport.


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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:12 pm

    This must be a testbed, look at all the VHF antennas or whatever kind of antennas that are on the tail section, to many to be just UHF/VHF antennas, also a TACAN near the suppossed Radar.

    Some time ago i searched for Mi-24 prototypes, because of Stinrays forum, and found a little article that a project started in 1987 to install a scorpion radar with both weapon guidance as an exhange for the Radio commanding pod of Ataka/Shturm missiles but also with a target search (MMW wave) radar, the projected was closed 1989 due the fall of Soviet Union. This radar was addressed in one borchure of some Ukrainian company stated this radar as "Scorpion-V" with also 3-4km range, heliborne.

    Later i read an article stating an upgrade for Mi-24VM3 (Mi-35M2), that it should get an mast mounted radar specifically designed for Mi-24, with just a little bit lower performance than the Arbalet.

    There will not be any combat Mi-24 without a cannon, not even for a "commanding" vehicle, this is just a testbed.

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:41 pm

    If it is a testbed for new ATGMs then why would it have the old pylons that would only allow two to four Shturm/Ataka missiles per pylon instead of the new stub wings that allow 8 missiles on two pylons?

    Plus all those antennas on the tail would also suggest VIP transport with multichannel communications likely a priority too.

    I suspect work on the Scorpion radar/missile complex would be dead and currently replaced with the Arbalet/Krisantema combination. Better range, more powerful and faster missile that is already in production and service in its ground vehicle version... and rather cheap command guidance.


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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:21 pm

    From this one picture that is really hard to argue for any version we presented or any alternative, from the painting it looks rather unfinished, which also the failing IRCM let us believe, but like you have seen before me, which i really don't like to admit, that this version has indeed a rotor vibration reductor system and that clearly states that this is more of a civil version than anythin for military purposes. Giving that the stubbed wings would be better in this older configuration than the new VM configuration, this gives them the right place for the LWR pods, most likely this will be used for further sensoric upgrades.

    The other thing that bugs me is this little fin right after the pilots seat, where usually the old soviet MAW sensors via active radar illumination are installed. From the shadow it throws onto the fuselage it looks rather rectangle shaped and the white thing, be it just paint that runs straight over it and ends on fuselage or be it a bulb-like shaped housing for newer Radar Warning Reciever.

    And what bugs me is this TACAN like fin next to the Radar, little bit of odd place but seems to be good when no FLIR and nor Turret is needed.

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    Mi-24V 'Hind': News

    Post  George1 on Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:16 pm

    All planned 2014 state defense order Mi-35M delivered to Southern Command

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:58 pm

    Nice but amateurish footage of Mi-24V operating in Dagestan.





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