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    Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

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    Vladimir79

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    Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:08 am

    Rostvertol: Defense Ministry plans to supply 22 helicopters Mi-35M at 10-12 billion rubles.

    Rostvertol Defense Ministry plans to supply 22 helicopters Mi-35M, totaling 10-12 billion rubles, said General Director Boris Slusar at the annual meeting of shareholders in 2009.

    "The Ministry of Defence ordered the Mi-35M for the first time for myself. Do the math, it turns 10-12 billion rubles. We are obliged to execute this program," - he said.

    B. Slusar noted that preliminary agreement regarding the supply of helicopters have been achieved during the visit of Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov to the company in December 2009.

    http://www.avia.ru/news/?id=1275923472
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:15 am

    That is unusual as the Mi-35M is a for export model.

    I believe it is the latest model with features of the Mi-28N on it like new main and tail rotor and wing, and a chin mounted turret with a twin barrel 23mm cannon as fitted to the last model production Hinds.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:17 am

    GarryB wrote:That is unusual as the Mi-35M is a for export model.

    It isn't unusual when we are experiencing issues with Mi-28N. If we can't get that helicopter mass produced we have little choice.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:40 am

    Let me rephrase that then... it is unusual for them to call the Hind they are ordering by its export designation rather than the Russian designation used, which is Mi-24xx.

    It doesn't surprise me that they are having issues with the Mi-28N, it is a very ambitious design.

    I would be happier to hear the decision that the army aviation forces were handed back to the control of the Army where they belong.

    Austin

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    Nice Write up of Mi-24/35 operation is SriLanka Airforce , Trial by fire

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:21 pm

    Nice Write up of Mi-24/35 operation is SriLanka Airforce , Trial by fire Smile

    http://vpk.name/news/51811_dyavolskie_kolesnicyi_shrilanki.html
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    TR1

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:05 pm

    Not exactly Mi-28 news, but from same plant, also couldn't find a Mi-24 thread in RuAF section.
    Apparently the first order for 22 mi-24BMs has been followed up by another contract for 26 airframes. So that's 48 Mi-24BMs on order today.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:32 pm

    Can someone remind me why they are ordering Mi-24 (35) still. Is it cost reasons?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:56 am

    Well, pretty much the Mi-35M is a mature and fully operational aircraft that is ready to produce right now.

    It also has the advantage of combining the Mi-24 airframe which the service is used to and familiar with, but it adds lots of bits from the Mi-28N for commonality and standardisation.

    It has the night vision and laser rangefinder night and all weather capability that improves the performance of guided and unguided weapons, while at the same time is fully ready to go.

    The Mi-28N on the other hand is rather better optimised and better armoured but I suspect its self defence suite is a little limited to wing tip pods with basic sensors and chaff and flare launchers.

    They are producing the Mi-28 in numbers, but really it is a bit like making Su-30s, or upgraded T-72s... it gets a new capability (night and all weather operations) into service faster on a platform that is not totally different to what they already have.

    I actually like the twin barrelled 23mm chin mounted cannon... in many ways an equivalent to the Apaches 30mm gun.

    The 30mm gun of the Havok and Hokum uses a very powerful high velocity 30 x 165mm shell, whereas the 23mm gun of the last model Hinds uses the shell case of the 14.5 x 114mm HMG round used as an anti tank rifle round during WWII, but necked out and fitted with the 23mm HE cannon shell originally used in the Il-2 shturmovick and later used in the high velocity 23 x 152mm round used by the Shilka and ZU-23.

    The result is a very heavy HE shell fired at moderate velocities (about 700m/s), which is very similar to the 30mm gun of the Apache. When shooting against ground targets the muzzle velocity and rate of fire is not important as shell weight for effect on target, though I would think the rate of fire of the Russian gun would make it pretty devastating against another helo.

    The same 23mm round is used as a standard air to air round by the Mig-21, Mig-23, and Mig-31. The latter uses it in a gatling gun that fires at between 9,000 and 12,000 rpm and is rated as the fastest firing gun in service.
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    medo

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  medo on Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:08 am

    I think this is good new, that RuAF will buy 48 Mi-35M helicopters. I don't think, they will be used in the same way as attack helicopter as Mi-28N, but more with recce and special forces, because it could also carry 8 soldiers as well as heavy armament.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:41 am

    Indeed, the Mi-35s will offer a flexibility that the Mi-28N lacks.

    I wonder how India are feeling about their decisions to adopt all that US made stuff after this:

    U.S. May Sanction India Over Level of Iran-Oil Imports

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-15/u-s-may-sanction-india-over-level-of-iran-oil-imports.html



    It seems that India not only has to adhere to UN rullings, it now has to abide by US law.

    The enormous joke of the whole matter is that most of Americas wealth came directly from oil sales through US banks in US dollars, and throwing their weight around like this is actually more likely to backfire and make Iran and other oil producing countries to bypass US banks when it comes to selling their oil to their customers... and if they are not using US banks why use US currency?

    I wonder if this will be enough to make India rethink some of its choices regarding weapons purchases?

    For the price they are paying for C-17s they could get brand new factory fresh An-124s and Il-476s, and for the price of the Apaches they could get Tigers or a range of other helos that are mature and ready to make right now...
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    TR1

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:03 am

    medo wrote:I think this is good new, that RuAF will buy 48 Mi-35M helicopters. I don't think, they will be used in the same way as attack helicopter as Mi-28N, but more with recce and special forces, because it could also carry 8 soldiers as well as heavy armament.

    I am not sure how well the Mi-24 can carry a heavy armament+ a squad of troops at the same time, let alone in any sort of altitude. Have read that it was not used in the dual role too much in actual Russian service.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:52 am

    AFAIK combat experience with the Mi-24 found that it was not as good at being a transport helicopter as an Mi-8 or Mi-17, and that when it was transporting troops it was less effective as an assault helo.

    The result was that in conflicts the cabin usually carried extra ammo and weapons, and a couple of door guns and door gunners.

    The Mi-24 actually has a crew of three and that is from the front the gunner/weapon officer, the pilot and then behind the pilot in a small tunnel that joins the pilots cockpit with the main cabin is an engineer.
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    medo

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  medo on Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:07 pm

    Mi-35M will not be alone attack helicopter as old Mi-24 was. There are Mi-28N and Ka-52 here for that role. Mi-35M will work with small recce or special groups, delivered them to given position, give them needed fire support and collect them and defend their evacuation with its armament. It doesn't need to be heavy loaded with ATGMs for that job, but twin 23 mm gun and unguided 80 mm rockets could be just fine for that job. To send somewhere 3 or 5 soldiers you wont take Mi-8 or Mi-26, Mi-35M will be fine for that job.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:48 pm

    Exactly, to recover small teams of special forces, or dare I say it ...new long range sniper teams, or even to recover downed air crew.

    Another mission/use to recover a small team that had been operating behind enemy lines... which could be anywhere in Chechnia.

    With night flying capability they will be much safer and with laser range finder and stabilised optics and ballistic computers even unguided weapons will be significantly more accurate to longer ranges.
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    TR1

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    Not exactly Mi-28 news, but from same plant, also couldn't find a Mi-24 thread in RuAF section.

    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:43 pm

    Another 4 Mi-35 due for delivery to Budennovsk.
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    Werewolf

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    Mi-35 Modernization

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:59 pm

    That sounds interesting.

    Mi-35M2 modernisation programm

    Currently, a comprehensive program is being carried out to modernize mass-production helicopters Mi-35 (the Mi-35M2 program). The modernization program is aimed at enhancing the helicopter's flight performance and combat capabilities, involving:

    day/night combat employment of guided and unguided weapons in VFR and IFR weather conditions;
    day/night flying at extremely low altitudes;
    en-route low-altitude flight with a target approach in the assigned area with a required accuracy.

    As to its airframe design, flight performance characteristics and weapon complement the Mi-35M2 is identical with the Mi-35M.

    The modernized version is powered with upgraded altitude engines TV3-117VMA-SB3. Armor protection can be enhanced at customer's request. A 12.7mm machine gun is installed at the cargo compartment door opening.

    The modernized helicopter's avionics includes:

    a multifunctional display;
    a satellite navigation station;
    a 3D electronic terrain map;
    a night surveillance and fire control radar; a helmet-mounted target designator;
    night goggles.

    The Mi-35M2 program envisages a stepwise enhancement of the helicopter combat capabilities, as well as installation of offered equipment and system components in any combination at customer's request.

    http://www.jetdiscovery.com/wiki/mi-35m2-modernization

    This side looks just like a information database, so i guess this are russian modernisation, the odd thing is what i heared is that Mi-35M3 will recieve all sensor packages with MAWS,LWR and RWR like Mi-28N, but never heared of a radar, i'll need more informations.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:24 pm

    In this case it might just mean an upgraded Shturm/Ataka guidance transmitter that allows the use of Krisantema, rather than a mast mounted radar system.

    Of course if they have successfully designed a mast mounted radar system that works there is no reason not to put it on Hinds as well as Havocs.

    Keep in mind that attack helos have gone for decades without radars and even the US did not fit Longbow radars to all AH-64D Longbow Apache helos because of the cost.... and the fact that they didn't actually all need them.

    It just makes sense for them to transfer all the new stuff they have developed for the Mi-28N and Mi-28NM to the older helos as it increases production numbers, improves commonality and training and maintainence issues and also increases performance.

    BTW has anyone got any footage of a Hind firing its chin turret mounted twin 23mm gun?

    I have seen the twin 30mm cannon (very impressive as it is a very powerful weapon), but I don't remember seeing the GSh-23 being used... it has much smaller propellent capacity and would be of a lower velocity than the 30mm guns but it fires at a very high rate with heavy projectiles for the calibre that should be devastating on target.


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    Werewolf

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:50 pm

    In this case it might just mean an upgraded Shturm/Ataka guidance transmitter that allows the use of Krisantema, rather than a mast mounted radar system.

    Of course if they have successfully designed a mast mounted radar system that works there is no reason not to put it on Hinds as well as Havocs.

    There was already a project for equipping Mi-24's with Fire Control Radar of the type Scorpion an ukrainian made radar in MMW-bandwith with about 5km effective classification and guidance by year 1988/89 and in same year funds were stopped through cuts.

    Link here
    http://lreri.tripod.com/
    Download the 3.8 mb file of their products and on page 8 of the modernisation of Cobra and Ataka missiles through miniature radio guidance command to page-10 describes:

    ENTERPRISEFrom the early eighties the LRERI began to work on creation of the millimeter-wave band (MMW) radar aids designed for search, detection and high-precision measurement of coordinates of ground targets as a component of ground and onboard weapon complexes; navigation safety control of ground aids, helicopters, sea and river vessels, ballistic preparation fire support.These aids expand the high-precision weapon combat capabilities by:
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:50 pm

    In this case it might just mean an upgraded Shturm/Ataka guidance transmitter that allows the use of Krisantema, rather than a mast mounted radar system.

    Of course if they have successfully designed a mast mounted radar system that works there is no reason not to put it on Hinds as well as Havocs.

    There was already a project for equipping Mi-24's with Fire Control Radar of the type Scorpion an ukrainian made radar in MMW-bandwith with about 5km effective classification and guidance by year 1988/89 and in same year funds were stopped through cuts.

    Link here
    http://lreri.tripod.com/
    Download the 3.8 mb file of their products and on page 8 of the modernisation of Cobra and Ataka missiles through miniature radio guidance command to page-10 describes:

    ENTERPRISEFrom the early eighties the LRERI began to work on creation of the millimeter-wave band (MMW) radar aids designed for search, detection and high-precision measurement of coordinates of ground targets as a component of ground and onboard weapon complexes; navigation safety control of ground aids, helicopters, sea and river vessels, ballistic preparation fire support.These aids expand the high-precision weapon combat capabilities by:all-day and all-weather application unlike the optical and infra-red band aids high security and noise immunity unlike the RF longer-wavelength means small dimensions and weight of the equipment, allowing to install it on carriers of all classes (ground vehicles, airborne and missile, ammunition)Integration with optical and infrared band means.
    ENTERPRISEThe Institute has developed production of the MMW short wavelength (SW) radar equipment. To this end:wide co-operation of developers and manufacturers of base components and metrological support has been created widespread investigations of the characteristics of the ground target and background radar portraits for the radar equipment construction optimization have been carried out principles of construction and technology of solid-state coherent pulse, pulse and Doppler radars and their components (antenna-feeder devices, transceiver paths, signal and control processor modules) have been developed large-size anechoic chamber (AEC) for developing the MMW radars and their components (50 х12 х8 m) has been created and equipped.

    Further on page 16:
    ENTERPRISEThe LRERI developments for the last years are as follows: creation of the prototype of the small-base passive complex for space radio monitoring and positioning of radio-frequency radiation sources of air and ground objects and the MMW radar-seeker for the aircraft air-to-surface missiles.

    Page 61 has pictures of the "miniature radio command link for anti-tank complexes" and on Page 62 you see it is the Mi-28 Ataka radio command link aswell the recievers for ATGM's launched from various vehicles.

    So indeed what you've suggested this LRERI radars like scorpion version for Hinds were also intented for radar guided missiles


    This data file contains also few informations about radar self-guided ammunition such as 120mm Mortars (page 38) and Shtora and Arena sensoring and radars. (page 87-102) there are lot of other products described for all who are interested.



    Keep in mind that attack helos have gone for decades without radars and even the US did not fit Longbow radars to all AH-64D Longbow Apache helos because of the cost.... and the fact that they didn't actually all need them.

    And on page 68 starting the MMW radar prototypes, it doesn't give lot of information about the specific MMW radars which were during that state under tests,however i personally doubt the MMW radar such of version scorpion were mast-mounded radars,since Hinds would had during 88/89 hard time to proper functional through non composite blades, which also were reason why Apaches had mostly used Laser guided Hellfires rather than FCR, through reliability issues which were unsolved till 2012/13 same goes for Arbalet for Mi-28N.

    It just makes sense for them to transfer all the new stuff they have developed for the Mi-28N and Mi-28NM to the older helos as it increases production numbers, improves commonality and training and maintainence issues and also increases performance.

    I also think it's mostly more effecient to further upgrade existing Hinds with new technologies, they are by far better plattforms for upgrades than the most helicopters and there is always room for special equipment or for reduction of weight through more modern materials like they did with VM/PM models from prior models reducing weight about 1-1.2tones empty weight.

    BTW has anyone got any footage of a Hind firing its chin turret mounted twin 23mm gun?

    Unfortunatley, i couldn't find much.

    PS: Don't know what went wrong by first post tried to edit it and came twice to a double post... dunno


    Last edited by Werewolf on Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:08 am

    Oops mate, they are talking about the command control system already developed and in standard use.

    The first was AT-2 Swatter missiles (Falanga) that uses a radio command signal to direct the missile in flight.

    This results in a higher flight speed than if it dragged a wire for commands, but is also means the launching helo is free to manouver while engaging targets as the wire wont snag on things and break.

    Shturm and Ataka are the next two command guidance missiles and both use a radio command frequency in the 35GHz range which is MMW radar frequency.

    The companys range of equipment in the link you gave is outdated Soviet stuff, the Russian company that makes the radio command missiles (ie ataka and now Kristantema) is this one: http://www.kbm.ru/production/ptrk/

    KBP is also working on MMW radar seekers for HERMES missiles too.


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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:30 am

    I've heard that the soviet MCLOS missiles had worthless chances of a hit(20% at most) but that largely depended on the experience of the operator. Did western operators of MCLOS missiles have better training using them?
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    medo

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  medo on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:46 am

    Mi-24 and Mi-28 have radio missile guiding antenna in black radome. Krizanthema have similarly big radar antenna and this radar is used to search for targets, tracking targets and guiding Krizanthema missiles on the target. They could replace Sturm/Ataka missile guiding antenna on Mi-28N with krizanthema type radar, that it could be able to search targets with radar and guide missiles with it. Very useful for heavy smoke or fog.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:44 pm

    The companys range of equipment in the link you gave is outdated Soviet stuff, the Russian company that makes the radio command missiles (ie ataka and now Kristantema) is this one:

    Of course it's outdated GarryB, i was refering to the Mi-24 programm in 1988/89 which was "officially" cut off from funding, but the Scorpion radars of Ukrainian company where used instead of radio command link for Ataka/Shturm ATGM, with limited capability of 3-5km.

    You were refering that they could possibly use masst mounted radar, but i rather doubt it since mast mounted radars have disadvantages in flight performance and the doctrine for "mast mounting sights and radars" are for helicopters with small size and more maneuverable that they can hide more easily behind obstecales, which is even for Mi-35M (Mi-24VM2) not the so easy like for Tigers,Apaches,Havocs or even Black Sharks and Alligators. So this is why i refered to the project of 88/89 which would definitley fit more to a Hind.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:09 am

    Mast mounted sights are not only for small and manouverable helos... the Mi-40 which was a model of a design they were looking at that combined the Mi-24 with the Mi-28N would have been a very big and heavy helo but it had a MMS.

    To use a MMS you don't need manouverability... any helo can hover behind cover and use a mast mounted system to observe targets.

    Very simply the radar system on Hinds was a command link to guide missiles... anything they might have had in the late 80s would be seriously inferior to what they are fitting to their Mi-28Ns now. There would be no point in resurrecting an old system when new systems have been developed.

    It makes rather more sense to update Hinds with Havoc equipment in terms of cost and commonality.

    I've heard that the soviet MCLOS missiles had worthless chances of a hit(20% at most) but that largely depended on the experience of the operator. Did western operators of MCLOS missiles have better training using them?

    Western operators were just as susceptable to problems like enemy fire putting them off their aim. The US Army missile called Dragon was particularly awful as its propulsion consisted of about 60 odd side thrusting jet modules... as the missile slowly rolled in flight a rocket pointing down and forward was used to keep the missile in the air and on its way to its target and movements by the operator would result in a side thruster firing to get the missile on target. Obviously if you moved the sight around a lot it would run out of thruster modules and the missile would plow into the ground short of the target.

    I have some CNN footage of Mujahadeen forces trying to fire a Milan ATGM at a T-54 tank from a ridgeline a km or so away... they kept missing. The CNN reporter called it artillery.

    The Soviets pioneered the widespread use of guided anti tank missiles and also unguided weapons like RPG etc. Their weapons were very widely deployed and constantly updated... at a time when their performance was low they were at least in widespread service unlike the very expensive western equivalents which were not generally better. Shillalagh is probably the only missile system that has entered and left service, seen several conflicts where it could have been used, yet never used effectively in combat.


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    medo

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    Re: Mi-24/Mi-35M Hinds: News

    Post  medo on Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:05 pm

    Very simply the radar system on Hinds was a command link to guide missiles... anything they might have had in the late 80s would be seriously inferior to what they are fitting to their Mi-28Ns now. There would be no point in resurrecting an old system when new systems have been developed.

    It makes rather more sense to update Hinds with Havoc equipment in terms of cost and commonality.

    I think Hind will no more do the job of tank killer, which will be now in hands of Mi-28N and Ka-52. Hind still poses capability to transport 8 soldiers, so it will be more used in anti insurgent roles or to transport and support small groups of scouts or specials in their missions. For that job it doesn't need radar, but modern night optics for night operations, what Mi-35 have. In case of emergency it could still fight with tanks with Ataka ATGMs.

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