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    Liana reconnaissance system

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    Vladimir79
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    Cosmos-2455 - a new generation electronic intelligence satellite

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:54 am

    Cosmos-2455 - a new generation electronic intelligence satellite


    On November 20, 2009 at 13:44 MSK (10:44 UTC) the Space Forces performed a successful launch of a Soyuz-U rocket from the launch pad No. 2 of the launch complex No. 16 of the Plesetsk launch site. The spacecraft delivered into orbit, designated Cosmos-2455, is a new generation electronic reconnaissance satellite of the Lotos-S type.

    Cosmos-2455 received international designation 2009-063A and NORAD catalog number 36095. According to NORAD data, Cosmos-2455 was deployed in an initial orbit with inclination of 67.2 degrees, orbital period of about 96 minutes, apogee of 905 km, and perigee of 200 km (the perigee will most likely be raised to make the orbit closer to circular).

    This is the first launch of a satellite of the Lotos-S type. It has been reported that these satellites, with their not yet flown counterparts known as Pion, will work as part of the Liana electronic reconnaissance system. This system is being designed to replace the Tselina electronic intelligence and US-PU/Legenda naval reconnaissance systems. Cosmos-2421, which operated from June 2006 to February 2008, apparently was the last US-PU satellite. The launch of Cosmos-2428 in June 2007 was reported to be the last launch of a Tselina-2 satellite.

    The launch was initially planned for July 28, 2009, but was cancelled because of problems with one of the satellite components. The spacecraft was returned to the manufacturer, Arsenal Machine Building Plant in St-Petersburg, which worked on the spacecraft together with the TsSKB-Progress Design Bureau in Samara.

    sepheronx
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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:13 am

    what exactly is the satellite though? Never heard of it, and the description is pretty vauge.

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  milky_candy_sugar on Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:52 am

    COSMOS 2455
    NORAD ID: 36095
    Int'l Code: 2009-063A
    Perigee: 910.5 km
    Apogee: 913.9 km
    Inclination: 67.1°
    Period: 103.1 min
    Semi major axis: 7,283.2 km
    Launch date: November 20, 2009
    Source: Commonwealth of Independent States (former USSR) (CIS)
    Comments: COSMOS 2455 could be a next-generation electronic intelligence mission. The satellite was named Kosmos 2455 after the launch as part of the Russian defense ministry's naming system for spacecraft. The payload was the sixth Russian military satellite launched in 2009.

    http://www.n2yo.com/satellite/?s=36095

    That's what i found


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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:11 pm

    milky_candy_sugar wrote:COSMOS 2455
    NORAD ID: 36095
    Int'l Code: 2009-063A
    Perigee: 910.5 km
    Apogee: 913.9 km
    Inclination: 67.1°
    Period: 103.1 min
    Semi major axis: 7,283.2 km
    Launch date: November 20, 2009
    Source: Commonwealth of Independent States (former USSR) (CIS)
    Comments: COSMOS 2455 could be a next-generation electronic intelligence mission. The satellite was named Kosmos 2455 after the launch as part of the Russian defense ministry's naming system for spacecraft. The payload was the sixth Russian military satellite launched in 2009.

    http://www.n2yo.com/satellite/?s=36095

    That's what i found

    That still does not help in terms of what I am asking. Is it an optical spy sattilite? Like the ones that US use to read the license plate on the back of your car? Or is it just to watch for missiles flying around? Because Russia needs more of the earlier for Reccon.

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:18 am

    sepheronx wrote:what exactly is the satellite though? Never heard of it, and the description is pretty vauge.

    This is the first launch of a satellite of the Lotos-S type. It has been reported that these satellites, with their not yet flown counterparts known as Pion, will work as part of the Liana electronic reconnaissance system. This system is being designed to replace the Tselina electronic intelligence and US-PU/Legenda naval reconnaissance systems. Not much else is known.

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:06 am

    This system is being designed to replace the Tselina electronic intelligence and US-PU/Legenda naval reconnaissance systems. Not much else is known.

    WOW.

    Lots of western "experts" I have discussed Soviet and Russian stuff with have called Legenda dead.
    This makes the Russian naval forces much more capable.. attack

    Very simply if you are in an OSCAR II cruise missile attack submarine with this satellite and others like it in operation you just need to move to near the surface and gather the data from the nearest satellite. After processing the information it will give you radar scans of the sea within a 1,000km radius of your position or so.
    If there is a US carrier battle group nearby and it is wartime you can fire a full 24 missile salvo of Granits from your sub, though it would probably be coordinated with other platforms like Kirov class vessels (20 Granits) or the Kuznetsov (12 Granits) or Slava (16 Vulkans (I think from memory)) and all launch volleys of missiles.
    In flight your 24 missiles will fly below 300m at about mach 2.5 with one designated leader missile that will communicate with the satellite for target movement updates. When the pack get near radar horizon the lead missile will climb and scan with radar the target carrier group dropping down to process the target date and then it communicates with the other missiles in the flight handing off targets to each missile making sure that for instance the very large return that is the carrier gets 4-5 missiles targetted on it and at least one is nuclear armed, while smaller targets might get one or two missiles aimed at it. The target data is transmitted to the satellite and can be received by the launching sub (in case only half missiles were fired, or only non nuke missile were fired and a follow up shot is necessary) and can be picked up by other platforms in the area... note the radar information from the lead missile will be rather better than the initial target data from 200km up, which might be radar or IR.
    If the lead missile is shot down another missile will assume that role as leader of the pack.
    All missiles will have active jammers and decoy dispensers, but not all will get through.

    A very impressive system that should be even better now several decades after the earlier version entered service.

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  Viktor on Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:50 pm

    Im wondering if Russia intends to replace Granit with 300km Yakhont/Onix or what?
    I mean 700km trade with 300km is does not sound good and I dont think its so mutch trouble once the missile is being developt (like increasing Onix range etc)

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:05 am

    Increasing the range of Oniks shouldn't be too hard, I would expect increasing its speed might also be a goal.

    For a while without a space based system operational having 300km range missiles instead of 700km range weapons is not actually much of a handicap simply because detecting carrier groups at 700km would be rather problematic for a vessel carrying these weapons.

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:24 pm

    @ airframe of Yakhont

    Tell me people (by the looks of it) Yakhont I assume (may be wrong) has a movable nosecone. What is the significance of this design which I believe must be phased out in favour of 'Gas dynamics' maneuvering technology

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:48 am

    Should also point out that Yakhont is the export version of the Onyx... the Yakhont is limited by international treaties to have a range limit of 300km, but Onyx has no such limits and is probably longer ranged and with a heavier warhead.

    The land based ballistic missile that replaces the Scud in the Russian inventory is the Iskander-M, though it is sometimes called Tender. The Russian missile is reported to have a range of about 480 kms while the export model has a range limited at 280km because of range restrictions on exported weapons.

    Regarding the movable nosecone on Yakhont, most jet engines burn fuel subsonically and will choke on supersonic airflow so most supersonic aircraft with a jet engine will have adjustable intakes to change the airflow so the air enters the engine subsonically. A moveable nosecone on the Yakhont would be used the same way the radar is moved on a Mig-21 to control airflow to the engine at different air speeds.

    Of course the Yakhont is a ramjet powered missile so air goes in the front and is compressed by the tube getting narrow, fuel is added and burnt and it exits faster than it went in generating thrust. A ramjet still needs subsonic airflow to operate.
    A Scramjet, or supersonic combustion ramjet can burn fuel at supersonic speeds and ironically needs an adjustable intake even more to control the airflow so that the supersonic air and fuel mix properly and are ignited properly to generate thrust.

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  nightcrawler on Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:40 am

    @GarryB

    Thnx 4 your explanation.

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    Liana satellite targeting system

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:54 am

    Interesting read about Liana satellite targeting system

    From Russian missiles no longer hide even the U.S. aircraft carriers

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    Liana satellite targeting system

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:54 am

    Viktor wrote:Interesting read about Liana satellite targeting system

    From Russian missiles no longer hide even the U.S. aircraft carriers

    If Liana goes as planned, it is huge. Legenda 2.0.

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    Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  dionis on Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:32 am

    Wanted to make a dedicated topic for this .. and possibly anything related to the Uspekh and Legenda systems.

    Given this system's importance in future naval warfare for Russia's armed forces... please feel free to post your latest news and opinions.

    Lotos-S satellites (part of the ELINT system) - 1 deployed currently.

    Pion-NKS satellites (naval system with passive/active radar) - none deployed currently.

    A good post regarding the previous and current system is here with some news updates (in Russian):

    http://www.fea.ru/FEA_news_3071.html

    ---------

    For discussion, some interesting questions might be:

    1) How well integrated will this system become with legacy or upgraded legacy systems (Tu-22M3, Tu-95MS, Tu-160 ... ground-attack capable fighters, Orlans/Atlants, Anteis, etc).

    2) How safe is this system at 1500KM orbit against US-designed anti-satellite weapons (marketed to reach 2000KM as per the SM-3?)





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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:06 am

    Seems like a thread with lots of "potential"...

    Here is a RSW article on the Liana system; http://www.russianspaceweb.com/liana.html

    1) I'd expect that while it could work with older systems, it would work much better with newer ones... The older systems could be upgraded to "Liana spec" which shouldn't be much of a hurdle.

    2) The absolute maximum range of the SM-3 is 1500 km, so any higher and it won't be a problem... Thing is, I doubt that the US would risk the possibility of the Kessler effect by hitting a satellite a that kind of orbit. The space trash produced by a hit would be enormous and devastating to every country involved in space. That orbit also could block off a lot of GEO and elliptical orbits as well. If anything, they'd try to disrupt the system via ECM.

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:41 am

    I agree... start shooting down satellites and the US has rather more to lose than Russia does.

    The new automated battle management system fitted to all new and upgraded Russian Navy ships, called Sigma will likely integrate data from a range of satellites and under sea, sea surface and air sensors and systems.


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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:I agree... start shooting down satellites and the US has rather more to lose than Russia does.

    The new automated battle management system fitted to all new and upgraded Russian Navy ships, called Sigma will likely integrate data from a range of satellites and under sea, sea surface and air sensors and systems.
    +1

    That is what I was hoping.... This makes me excited about the next couple decades...

    russia russia

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:10 am

    Indeed... the enormous proliferation of land attack cruise missiles and the sensors and network to be able to use them... even a relatively small Russian Navy will become very potent.


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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:Indeed... the enormous proliferation of land attack cruise missiles and the sensors and network to be able to use them... even a relatively small Russian Navy will become very potent.

    Not only the number of missiles, but the precision and accuracy in which they would attack... IMHO, it's best use is to guide AShM's.

    I just want to see these things getting launched, and in large numbers unlike their predecessors!

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:30 am

    Indeed, the main criticism from the west of Soviet and Russian anti ship missiles was their size limited their numbers and deployment to a few platforms.

    Harpoon on the other hand could be carried in larger numbers... often 8 per vessel.

    Now Russian corvettes will carry 8 launch tubes for missiles too...


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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  Mike E on Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:37 am

    GarryB wrote:Indeed, the main criticism from the west of Soviet and Russian anti ship missiles was their size limited their numbers and deployment to a few platforms.

    Harpoon on the other hand could be carried in larger numbers... often 8 per vessel.

    Now Russian corvettes will carry 8 launch tubes for missiles too...
    Not like the Harpoon could do anything anyway... Plus, 8 missiles isn't that many considering that the Harpoon isn't very large by AShM standards.

    UKSK is also a huge improvement to go along with larger numbers.

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  Rmf on Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:05 pm

    by now liana satelite program is too far behind, that it should be cancelled and efforts concentrated on modified liana= pion.
    not that its such a bad thing naval assets and new combat systems with them are lagging too.

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:05 am

    I suspect the current focus will be to ensure all the components are Russian made and therefore secure, while still able to do the job required.

    Then upgrades and new systems can be developed within the framework of new domestic electronic developments.


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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:36 am

    Rmf wrote:by now liana satelite program is too far behind, that it should be cancelled and efforts concentrated on modified liana= pion.
    not that its such a bad thing  naval assets and new combat systems  with them are lagging too.

    The Pion is part of the Liana system, it needs the entire system to function properly... Why cancel the project and continue a part of it? They will arrive soon enough, the lack of funding under Yeltsin absolutely murdered the project. The SIGMA naval system will be part of Liana, and work on that is beginning to warp up.

    GarryB wrote: I suspect the current focus will be to ensure all the components are Russian made and therefore secure, while still able to do the job required.

    Then upgrades and new systems can be developed within the framework of new domestic electronic developments.

    Yep, and finishing up that pain in the butt known as software! Production on the Lotos satellites has already started, so that is next...

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    Re: Liana reconnaissance system

    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:41 am

    this system also is a replacement of Tselina electronic intelligence system? except US-PU/Legenda

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