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    BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

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    d_taddei2
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    BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat May 31, 2014 9:15 pm

    Hi all, hope everyone is good.

    Having been in the British army, and been in a mechanised battalion, i was wondering what people thought of the BTR 60/70/80/82A vs western wheeled APC's?
    I personally thought that the Russians and other ex soviet nations using the BTR 60/70/80, had the better vehicle, and now with upgrades like the BTR 82A, this made the series a lot better and a very capable wheeled APC on the battlefield. When i was in the British we used the Saxon (brought into service in the early 80's) which to be honest wasnt up to the job, was really only suitable for riot control in N. Ireland. The Saxon was terrible for overturning and wasnt the greatest off road and the armour could handle upto 7.62mm providing it was beyond 100m, and the only weapon it had was a 7.62mm GPMG.
    Compaired to the BTR 60 which came out in 1959, same armour protection, but more space, better off road capability, fully amphibious, and had a 7.62mm and 14.5mm all this for a vehicle 20yrs older than the Saxon.

    So whats everyone elses view on the BTR 60/70/80/82A compaired to other western wheeled APC's?????????

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  medo on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:50 am

    Depend on the way of use of those wheeled APCs. Soviet/Russian army use them primarelly as armored BUS to bring troops to the battlefield and to operate behind the lines. Older BTRs never had any serious weapon and operated manually, so no one sane will use it in the armor battle. They have tanks and BMPs for this role. Even modernized BTR-82A, which have 30 mm gun with day/night FCS, stabilization and ballistic computer will be primarelly used for this role too together with Tayfun and other armored vehicles. That is why they develop Boomerang and Kurganec as wheeled and tracked IFV, although I'm very sceptical about wheeled IFV. in the West many armies use wheeled APCs as IFVs, so they have better armament and FCS, but still weak armor and have problems with offroad capabilities. They are good for western needs as they have good road network, but outside they are limited.

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  Asf on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:09 pm

    Soviet/Russian army use them primarelly as armored BUS to bring troops to the battlefield
    Direct fire support with HMG most of the time.
    Older BTRs never had any serious weapon and operated manually
    KPVT is a beast among HMGs


    The only BTR family is reported to be a side doors. Good mobility, even in a dense terrain or with up to a half of the wheels penetrated, though. Small inner space is a feature of the soviet design (less space to be armoured means less weigh). Protection is quite mediocre by modern standart, bad mine protection. Still quite good compared with stryker family (it had some bad relations from Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns as I heard).

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:12 pm

    No way, Stryker has better base protection then any BTR (bar 90, which has crap mine protection anwyays).

    It is a newer and heavier vehicle, no shocker.

    Lots of troops had very positive things to say about the Stryker in Iraq, even if it is not an ideal but only temporary solution.

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:21 pm

    TR1 wrote:No way, Stryker has better base protection then any BTR (bar 90, which has crap mine protection anwyays).

    It is a newer and heavier vehicle, no shocker.

    Lots of troops had very positive things to say about the Stryker in Iraq, even if it is not an ideal but only temporary solution.


    Actually the Stryker is hated among US soldiers, it has the same reputation as the Gavin (Coffin) how it is also called by some US soldiers.

    Watch the series of "The REAL Stryker" or "The REAL Abrams" from Blacktaildefense, the guy has served and has some insider knowledge also maintains connections with some soldiers.






    Last edited by Werewolf on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:24 pm

    I have spoken to friends who were deployed overseas, and had experience with the Stryker. Not all of the feedback was entirely positive, but for the most part, it was much better than the rabid Stryker hate online.

    If the Stryker sucks, then I wouldn't even want to talk about the BTR-80. Decent mobility, by other standards it is totally archaic otherwise.

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:26 pm

    Watch the video above and see how "mobile" the Stryker really is, it is among the worst designed APCs in service and has almost no advantage over even older models of APCs of foreign countries.

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:29 pm

    I meant the BTR-80s mobility.

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:36 pm

    TR1 wrote:I meant the BTR-80s mobility.

    The BTR 80 has quite a few disadvantages but still is a superior APC compared to the most APCs of its time, if you are still speaking of the basic model.

    The Strykers exterior, dimensional and hull and wheel arrangement has caused big problems for the mobility on OFF-ROAD, that is why i can't really heat up for the Boomerang "hype" like some others here, because this design is very well for paved roads but has proven to be bad in mobility on terrain, which they are designed for.

    Further the Stryker has some big problems like explained in 2 dozen videos of Blacktaildefense, which among is horrible visibility for the driver after a rainy day when the heated engine fogges the glas between 2 sheets and they have nothing to "cure" such little disease till this day.


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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:44 pm

    TR1 wrote:I have spoken to friends who were deployed overseas, and had experience with the Stryker. Not all of the feedback was entirely positive, but for the most part, it was much better than the rabid Stryker hate online.

    If the Stryker sucks, then I wouldn't even want to talk about the BTR-80. Decent mobility, by other standards it is totally archaic otherwise.

    The Stryker is in the same lines as Bradley IFV as far as quality goes, Europeans make far better and higher quality APC's and IFV's. BTR's are what you call a bargain buy and you get what you pay for, bargain buys usually tend not to come with all the bells and whisles. If the Soviet MOD wanted to create a $4/$5 million dollar APC they would of done so. BTW if your so quick to defend the Stryker APC, well that makes you one of the few that still want to:

    Army Stryker Brigade Won’t Take Strykers to Afghanistan

    Based out of Washington state, the Army’s the 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division is built around its intimidating Stryker armored vehicles. Weighing 19 tons and carrying troops on eight wheels, the Stryker is supposed to represent the Army’s best balance between armor protection and speedy transport. However, that balance is only struck when the vehicle goes to war. And while the 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry division will head to Afghanistan in December, its Strykers aren’t invited.

    The brigade, naturally, is downplaying the significance of leaving its Strykers back home. Its soldiers will ride in Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles instead. But it’s an embarrassing admission that the Army spent billions purchasing a vehicle that isn’t relevant to a major war. Think of it like the military’s version of Garfield Minus Garfield.

    The Stryker Brigade will go Stryker-less for two reasons. First, the Afghan terrain can’t handle a heavy wheeled vehicle that’s about the size of a school bus. You don’t want to take that thing up mountains or roll it through river valleys that lack paved roads. Second, the vehicle is too flimsy to handle homemade bombs. Unlike MRAPs, the flat bottom of a Stryker absorbs the brunt of a bomb impact, rather than deflecting it.

    The Stryker did well in Iraq — the brigade deployed three times there — earning the appellation “ghost riders” from President George W. Bush. But Iraq has paved roads, less rugged terrain (on the whole) and different kinds of homebrewed bombs.

    In 2009, the flat-bottom Stryker accompanied the 5th Stryker Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division to Kandahar. As 37 troops died and 238 were wounded, the brigade’s soldiers began to call the behemoth the “Kevlar Coffin.” The Stryker, retired Lt. Col. David Johnson of the Center for Advanced Defense Studies told Stars & Stripes, “isn’t perfectly suited for the environment in Afghanistan or a low-intensity conflict with IEDs.“


    It wasn’t supposed to be this way. Back when the Army had only acquired 800 of 1200 Strykers in 2004, the Government Accountability Office estimated that the vehicle cost $8.7 billion to develop and purchase. A decade ago, the Army’s Training and Doctrine Command, hot for Strykers, told Congress the vehicle would be “capable of operating in all types of military operations, from small-scale contingencies to a major theater of war.” Oops.

    And look at what its replacement vehicle is: an MRAP. That was a truck the Army was lukewarm on — until former Defense Secretary Robert Gates surged them into production for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Hard questions await the Army about the utility of the lighter, more mobile MRAP after the wars end. But for now, it can operate wherever soldiers do.

    The cost of an MRAP? Under $1 million per vehicle. Each Stryker, as of 2004, cost over $4 million.

    So what’s a Stryker Brigade without its signature vehicle — the vehicle that it trains around and forms the basis of its tactics? Infantrymen.

    “The important part is not about the vehicle for us,” Lt. Col. Wayne Brewster, the brigade’s deputy commander, told reporters. “Even though we’re a Stryker brigade with Stryker vehicles, the strength of the brigade is that we’ve got over 4,000 — it’s an infantry brigade — armed soldiers inside of it.” And those soldiers will be riding in a truck the Army never really wanted, rather than the one it wanted badly.

    http://www.wired.com/2011/10/army-strykers-afghanistan/


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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  Regular on Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:44 am

    Hey hey hey, You are comparing BTR series with Stryker? Sheesh, wait for new Russian APC..
    But what I'm talking about, Stryker isn't fresh, basically it is upgraded LAV III. Sure it's better when it comes to armour, mine protection, engine, modularity and weaponry (only in tests and paper)
    But at what cost? As You guys mentioned, cost is overbloated. And yes, Europeans are leading when it comes to APCs. No wonder, because it's wheeled fighting vehicle would be more useful than tracked. Patria AMV and German Boxer looks good and it's way more affordable than Stryker. Afaik average price of Patria AMV is 2mil, so it's almost twice cheaper than Stryker. Plus it's amphibious.
    Look at it's mobility... I do hope Russian Bumerang will be similar to AMV...
    Skip to 4:40

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:49 am

    Regular wrote:Hey hey hey, You are comparing BTR series with Stryker? Sheesh, wait for new Russian APC..
    But what I'm talking about, Stryker isn't fresh, basically it is upgraded LAV III. Sure it's better when it comes to armour, mine protection, engine, modularity and weaponry (only in tests and paper)
    But at what cost? As You guys mentioned, cost is overbloated. And yes, Europeans are leading when it comes to APCs. No wonder, because it's wheeled fighting vehicle would be more useful than tracked. Patria AMV and German Boxer looks good and it's way more affordable than Stryker. Afaik average price of Patria AMV is 2mil, so it's almost twice cheaper than Stryker. Plus it's amphibious.
    Look at it's mobility... I do hope Russian Bumerang will be similar to AMV...
    Skip to 4:40

    Exactly, this is the point I'm trying to make Patria and Boxer APC's are way better, of higher quality and more cost effective. The only reason why BTR's haven't been replaced was due to the Russian economic collapse and political turmoil of the 90's. Within the entirety of the massive military inventory of the U.S., Strykers and Bradley fighting vehicles are of the worst quality, and are on the lowest part of the totem pole.

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:45 am

    How exactly is Bradley the "worst" on the totem pole?
    Warrior is no better.

    BMP-3 has shit-ton of faults as an IFV itself.

    Stop looking at things with such extremes. It is more often than not wrong.

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  Asf on Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:28 am

    No way, Stryker has better base protection then any BTR
    Actually... I'm not quite sure. Stryker has more protection with some heavy additional armour. And still not an RPG-proof. In theory there is an additional armour for BTR too. So armour is not that important imho.

    If we talk about mine protection - BTR has none, only thin armoured bottom. That's why MoD wants Boomerang


    Last edited by Asf on Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:50 am; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:35 am

    TR1 wrote:How exactly is Bradley the "worst" on the totem pole?

    Because the Bradley program stunk so bad and it was so infamous that Hollywood made a movie mocking it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0144550/


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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  Asf on Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:39 am

    Because the Bradley program stunk so bad and it was so infamous that Hollywood made a movie mocking it:
    Irl US military cloned BMP class vehicles in their own way, as i think. Bradley isn't bad... isn't good either. Just an IFV. Not bad protection, good armament and cost. Not amphibious and relatively big

    Actually, F-35 suffered from "gimme-all-I-want-in-a-one-vehicle" syndrome more, than Bradley

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:52 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    TR1 wrote:How exactly is Bradley the "worst" on the totem pole?

    Because the Bradley program stunk so bad and it was so infamous that Hollywood made a movie mocking it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0144550/


    I could make a dark comedy about Soviet/Russian tank procurement. Easily too.


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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:17 am

    The BTR vehicles were designed to be cheap... if you want to compare them, then compare them with western troop transport of the time... trucks.

    In comparison the BTR was more mobile, had much better firepower, better protection, and were fully amphibious.

    The BTR-60 had two engines because those were widely available standard engines and it was cheaper to fit those two petrol driven engines than develop a new one.

    To say it was cheap to buy is not to say it was simple to operate as early models were tempermental with their twin engine designs and transmissions.

    Being wheeled however they were much cheaper and only slightly less mobile than tracked IFVs.

    The BTR-80 introduced a single diesel engine with enough power to make it a useful relatively reliable vehicle and the new BTR-82 has improved protection, introduced spall liners, improved the gun setup (continuous ammo belts for both weapons) with a powered stabilised gun mount and new night capable optics.

    The BTR was an APC built to a budget.

    Mine resistence wasn't terrible... quite often BTRs were seen in Afghanistan with 2 or more wheels blown completely off by mines, but other problems like lower grade metal in the wheel arches resulting in risk to the crew behind that armour.

    If looking at introducing into service for say... Scotland... I would suggest a BTR-80 or upgraded BTR-70 would be useful vehicles that would not be too expensive to buy and operate... there should be a few thousand extra on the arms market in a few years. With a bigger budget the BTR-82 looks like a useful vehicle too.


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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  Asf on Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:36 am

    The BTR vehicles were designed to be cheap... if you want to compare them, then compare them with western troop transport of the time... trucks.
    I don't think it was that cheap Smile It's the matter of war-time production in the first place, not a price. And maintainence, of course
    Mine resistence wasn't terrible... quite often BTRs were seen in Afghanistan with 2 or more wheels blown completely off by mines
    It could still move full speed Smile But it seems to be a relatively small charges compared to modern mine-resistance standards

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  Asf on Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:43 am

    TR1 wrote:
    I could make a dark comedy about Soviet/Russian tank procurement. Easily too.
    Did you work in one of the three rival tank-produsing companies in the USSR? Smile 

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:46 am

    TR1 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    TR1 wrote:How exactly is Bradley the "worst" on the totem pole?

    Because the Bradley program stunk so bad and it was so infamous that Hollywood made a movie mocking it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0144550/


    I could make a dark comedy about Soviet/Russian tank procurement. Easily too.


    I'm sure you can, but I can't make a comedy about Russian tank procurement and see no reason why I would want to.

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:15 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    TR1 wrote:How exactly is Bradley the "worst" on the totem pole?

    Because the Bradley program stunk so bad and it was so infamous that Hollywood made a movie mocking it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0144550/


    I could make a dark comedy about Soviet/Russian tank procurement. Easily too.


    Anti-Russian propaganda in Hollywood is at a premium, a glamorous script about Russian military incompetence would be quickly picked up in Hollywierd, all though you'll face fierce competition between movie recording studios who focus heavily on WW2 movies...regardless you'll make a killing in the box-office! Wink

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:59 am

    I don't think it was that cheap Smile It's the matter of war-time production in the first place, not a price. And maintainence, of course

    Cheap enough to be an affordable replacement for a troop transport truck, but with features like some protection from small arms fire and fragments, plus fully amphibious, and of course fairly decent support fire power mounted in a turret.

    Maintenance was likely a long slow process and its design is seriously compromised by the complicated drive train design with two motors.

    I remember reading a report written by a US officer who evaluated a BTR-60 and he said it was the ultimate RV (recreation vehicle) because of its mobility and easy driving performance.


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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:28 am

    Cheap enough to be an affordable replacement for a troop transport truck, but with features like some protection from small arms fire and fragments, plus fully amphibious, and of course fairly decent support fire power mounted in a turret.
    I think BTR-152 was supposed to replace trucks for cheap, and BTR-60 was supposed to have more firepower and mobility, than BTR-152. But you mostly right.
    Maintenance was likely a long slow process and its design is seriously compromised by the complicated drive train design with two motors.
    Still the engines were well known by technicians

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    Re: BTRs APC vs Western 8x8 APC

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:11 pm

    The Chinese ZBD09 is quite cool.
    The Austrian PANDUR II and the recent Brazilian upgrade of the old EE-11 are also interesting recent developments.
    If you're pockets are deep then the PATRIA AMV and BOXER are great.
    but from the 1980s stuff, I'd say the South African Ratel is the most interesting.

    The BTRs are really long in the tooth IMHO, access, armour, comfort, armament and SA are all below par.

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