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    Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

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    Viktor

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    Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  Viktor on Sat May 31, 2014 8:31 pm

    It may cause some delays but in general terms it will stengthen Russian defense capabilities

    Ukraine introduces ban on Russian military products supplies - Russian military official

    on the other hand it will cause Ukraine loose billions of $ and lots of jobs - good luck with nazi party
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat May 31, 2014 9:14 pm

    Viktor wrote:It may cause some delays but in general terms it will stengthen Russian defense capabilities

    Ukraine introduces ban on Russian military products supplies - Russian military official

    on the other hand it will cause Ukraine loose billions of $ and lots of jobs - good luck with nazi party

    Those military industries in Ukraine will revolt against Kiev, Antonov's chief leader (Dmitry Kiva) was fired because he was Pro-Russian and he opposed the Kiev coup govt...I wonder if Ukrainian MIC will start supplying Pro-Russian rebels with asymmetrical weaponry.
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    mack8

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  mack8 on Sat May 31, 2014 9:27 pm

    Long expected, the neo-nazi puppets in US service at work. What would be a rough list of the items affected, i can think of the Yak-130 engines, the Mi-8/17/24/28/Ka-52 engines, Antonov aircraft of various types etc. (unless i'm mistaken and at least some helicopter engines are made in Russia - i know about plans for domestic production of VK-2500). I seem to remember reading something to the effect that Ukraine was also delivering certain ballistic missile parts to Russia? Plus, what about air to air missiles, is there any ukrainian involvement in current russian air to air and air to ground missile programs?

    It will be a headache in the short term, particularly in regards to exports. I hope the russians will retaliate by withdrawing all licences for repairing aircraft, helicopters etc., (surely the ukrainian companies would have needed some kind of licence from the parent OKB) and also aggressive lobbying to users of russian weaponry to not award any contracts to Ukraine anymore, but to Russia or Belarus instead (judging by the iraqi headaches with the BTR-4s or An-32s, the quality of ukrainian production is s*it anyway). Actually, this is a golden opportunity for Belarus, i do not agree with REDUCING cooperation with them nowadays in military production, but increasing it, of course in such a way that Russia still have a back-up option for anything that might be affected.

    Clearly the US coup in Ukraine had impending the current russian rearmament program (which did relied on certain items from ukrainian companies) as one of it's main objectives. I wonder if the ukrainian US puppets will cancel all contracts with China too. I won't be surprised.

    Oh and yeah, f*** the US, looking forward to see the bastards finished in my lifetime.



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    Viktor

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:04 am

    Joining in your wishes.

    As far as I know:

    1. Helicopter engines might be a problem in the short term (1-2 years)

    2. Parts for ballistic missiles and maintenance would be replaced in a matter of few montsh (as I read today)

    3. Engines for ships (this might also be a problem in a short term, I dont know how long but I read that Saturn will need to do its utmost)

    4. I did not heard anything about air to air missiles
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    TR1

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:36 am

    Try 4-5 years for all engines. Not sure how reliable these news are. Waiting for motor sich confirmation.

    Also enough with the constant US bashing, christ.

    calripson

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    Nonsense

    Post  calripson on Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:38 am

    Anything the Ukrainians produce can be reverse engineered and produced in multiple volumes by the Chinese. Just hand them those helicopter engines and let them get to it. I have done lots of business in China and have seen them go from dirt to state of the art factory in 6 months. Nobody is better at copying technology than they are.
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    TR1

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:08 am

    And yet it took them years to make a half-viable Al-31 copy.

    Not to mention that would be a terrible idea for the future of the Russian defense industry.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:54 am

    TR1 wrote:And yet it took them years to make a half-viable Al-31 copy.

    Not to mention that would be a terrible idea for the future of the Russian defense industry.

    Then maybe they should work with the Russians. They can help modernize facilities then.
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    medo

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  medo on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:23 am

    Belarus will replace many Ukrainian components and don't forget on Kazakhstan. UVZ will produce BMPT together with Kazakhstan, so maybe Russia will develop some military industry in Kazakhstan too. Russia already produce helicopter engines, so they only have to increase production. Migs and Sukhois are fully domestic as well as Tupolev. AGAT is from Belarus. Maybe ship engines are problematic, but engines could be bought in South Korea in the mean time.

    Anyway, Russian industrial production will well increase in coming years to replace imports from Ukraine and from EU, what will bring more jobs and money to citizens and more money will stay at home. Exports will increase too as many places in the World see the West as unreliable partner with heavy shadow of US sanctions behind. Russia will export no less oil and gas as to now as well as food, which is mostly sold to Arabs. Export of industrial products will increase.

    Stopping cooperation with Russia will bring Ukraine in bankruptcy in following months. They could not export their products to the West as well as to other customers as unreliable partner.

    etaepsilonk

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:42 am

    medo wrote:Belarus will replace many Ukrainian components and don't forget on Kazakhstan. UVZ will produce BMPT together with Kazakhstan, so maybe Russia will develop some military industry in Kazakhstan too. Russia already produce helicopter engines, so they only have to increase production. Migs and Sukhois are fully domestic as well as Tupolev. AGAT is from Belarus. Maybe ship engines are problematic, but engines could be bought in South Korea in the mean time.

    Anyway, Russian industrial production will well increase in coming years to replace imports from Ukraine and from EU, what will bring more jobs and money to citizens and more money will stay at home. Exports will increase too as many places in the World see the West as unreliable partner with heavy shadow of US sanctions behind. Russia will export no less oil and gas as to now as well as food, which is mostly sold to Arabs. Export of industrial products will increase.

    Stopping cooperation with Russia will bring Ukraine in bankruptcy in following months. They could not export their products to the West as well as to other customers as unreliable partner.

    Huh, south korea? Aren't they themselves using "general electric" stuff?
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    mack8

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  mack8 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:26 pm


    Also enough with the constant US bashing, christ.

    Why? This whole Ukraine mess is the bastards' show, they want to create another Syria right in the middle of Europe, f*** them and their whole genealogical tree. And any spineless puppets in their service.

    And yet it took them years to make a half-viable Al-31 copy.

    You mean WS-10? That is not an AL-31 "copy".

    Regarding China, of course increasing cooperation between the two can only be beneficial for both, they have a common enemy. I think one area where China could actually help is naval construction, if i'm not mistaken they are churning out warships for PLAN at a very respectable rate. So imo outsourcing several types of warships for the VMF (a la Mistral) to China will considerably increase the re-equipping pace. In the short/medium term this will free the russian shipyards to concentrate on really badly needed vessels and modernizing/expanding the existing facilities.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:29 pm

    TR1 wrote:Try 4-5 years for all engines. Not sure how reliable these news are. Waiting for motor sich confirmation.

    Also enough with the constant US bashing, christ.

    US bashing is a reaction to all the criminal,genocidal and warmongering actions of the US.

    The bashing will stop when the evil empire is gone.

    calripson

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    Chinese

    Post  calripson on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:58 pm

    It might be a terrible idea but a helicopter engine is not a jet engine. Also, when it comes to shipbuilding, the Chinese could easily triple Russian naval ship production as subcontractors. China is also very good at mass producing electrical subsystems. China has roughly ten times the labor force of Russia (30 times Ukraine). China graduates 350,000 engineers per annum. (As an aside 54% of US Phds in engineering are foreign born with the majority coming from - China).
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    TR1

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:10 pm

    mack8 wrote:
    Also enough with the constant US bashing, christ.

    Why? This whole Ukraine mess is the bastards' show, they want to create another Syria right in the middle of Europe, f*** them and their whole genealogical tree. And any spineless puppets in their service.

    Oh yes, Russia has no game here.

    We all know Russian policy in the frmer-USSR is driven by love compassion and desire for human rights.

    LOL
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:05 pm

    calripson wrote:It might be a terrible idea but a helicopter engine is not a jet engine. Also, when it comes to shipbuilding, the Chinese could easily triple Russian naval ship production as subcontractors. China is also very good at mass producing electrical subsystems. China has roughly ten times the labor force of Russia (30 times Ukraine). China graduates 350,000 engineers per annum. (As an aside 54% of US Phds in engineering are foreign born with the majority coming from - China).

    We know that Russia is cooperating with South Korea to modernize a shipyard (most likely in Vladivostok), but I think Russia and China should cooperate in creating modular ships and carriers and create large mechanized modern ship yards to create and support them. I think they should cooperate to make a mega shipyard in Sakhalin (if the weather permits), may'be India could cooperate and possibly even South Korea.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:18 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    mack8 wrote:
    Also enough with the constant US bashing, christ.

    Why? This whole Ukraine mess is the bastards' show, they want to create another Syria right in the middle of Europe, f*** them and their whole genealogical tree. And any spineless puppets in their service.

    Oh yes, Russia has no game here.

    We all know Russian policy in the frmer-USSR is driven by love compassion and desire for human rights.

    LOL

    The whole purpose of the war is to kick the Russian's out of the Middle East, the Pentagon has always had a position that they should be the only major military power  in the ME, just like when they advised Anwar Sadat to kick out all the Soviet/Russian advisors out of Egypt. It has nothing to do with humanitarian reasons either way but to do with national interests, however Russia 'does' have the moral high ground because Russia did stop arms deliveries to Syria on request while the Pentagon is still illegally trafficking arms to Syria despite the fact that John Kerry representing the U.S. just recently signed a U.N. declaration to prevent and minimize the worlds black market of arms trafficking.
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    TR1

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:36 pm

    No it didn't. The "Syrian express" of large landing ships has been steadily going to Syria since the early in the war.

    Russia has zero point zero moral ground.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:57 pm

    TR1 wrote:No it didn't. The "Syrian express" of large landing ships has been steadily going to Syria since the early in the war.

    Russia has zero point zero moral ground.

    The actual military deliveries to Syria have been severally drawn down due to economic sanctions on Syria. BTW a lot of those ships were delivering food, water, and medicine and also they were there to ship the chemical weapon stockpiles out of Syria, getting rid of the chemical weapon stockpiles was in fact a solution on the Russian side not from the American side, hence the moral high ground. unshaven

    a89

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  a89 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:58 am

    Engine technology is hard to master, as you cannot replace an engine factory within a few weeks.

    In any case it is better to wait. The Russian market is the most important one for most of those companies. Maybe Ukraine is putting pressure to get a discount in the gas. Russia wants to charge a very large sum which will drive the country to bankruptcy.

    OTOH, a few days ago Motor Sich announced an upgrade proposal for Russian Mi-2...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:48 am

    OTOH, a few days ago Motor Sich announced an upgrade proposal for Russian Mi-2...

    There are thousands of upgrade proposals for Mi-2... but one of the heaviest users is Russia who clearly wont be allowed to buy it anyway.

    the problems with motor sich go back for more than a decade... or should I say problems created for Motor Sich by its stupid Ukrainian government go back more than a decade.

    the simple comparison is that Russia is happy to buy Ukrainian engines, while the EU probably has lots of companies that would love to buy Motor Sich and then strip it of assets and skilled labour and then close it down.

    The reliance on Ukrainian engines was a decision made by the Russians to help the Ukraine... now that the Ukraine are turning away from Russia then Russia can spend a little more on engines and buy Russian made engines with a little investment in expanding production capacity. They are already making lots of helicopters so production of engines should be quite lucrative for them.


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    TR1

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:56 am

    It had little to do with helping Ukraine.
    Klimov is happy to buy the engines from Ukraine because M-S can do it quickly and cheaply. No need to invest mass money into making domestic production. The Russian mil is happy because they get to buy at the current prices.

    Let's not make the Russian gov out to be some kind of saint here, looking out for our wayward Slavic brothers.
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    navyfield

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  navyfield on Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:30 pm

    actually im on Russia side on this one.

    If EU was really honest about integrating Ukraine and cooperation and help ,it would support An-70 program then help with credits for production line and buy it from Ukraine,.

    Instead it went into joint venture steal technology and inovations and patents ,and create its own clown A-400M (much more expensive) , china style , and then it bailed out.

    Actually only Russia has supported An-70 program ,on and off depending on regime in charge  Smile ,and thats just 1 military program on top of my head ,a beutiful, excellent, and useful aircraft, victim of politics like many other things in ukraine ,unfortunately.
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    TR1

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:53 am

    Why would EU buy An-70? They have their own A-400.
    Economic integration does not mean throwing your economic interests out the window and funding a competing plane.

    An-70 is a tiny part of the mess that is the Ukranian economy. A mess they have themselves (well, a small elite) to blame for.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:50 am

    Oh yes, Russia has no game here.

    We all know Russian policy in the frmer-USSR is driven by love compassion and desire for human rights.

    LOL

    Yeah... innocent US supporting an illegal coup and supporting the violent suppression of any counter coup.

    Evil Russia not promoting violence and suggesting talks between the upset parties... the self interested bastards.

    Basically the US and the EU are clearly the bad guys, but that is really nothing new in my opinion... what I am wondering is why you are supporting and defending them TR-1?

    Is your blind hatred for Putin colouring your judgement or are you a CIA plant?

    It had little to do with helping Ukraine.
    Klimov is happy to buy the engines from Ukraine because M-S can do it quickly and cheaply. No need to invest mass money into making domestic production. The Russian mil is happy because they get to buy at the current prices.

    Let's not make the Russian gov out to be some kind of saint here, looking out for our wayward Slavic brothers.

    They could have easily invested in their own production of these engines... and considering the aircraft are largely only made in Russia with Ukrainian production of such aircraft practically no longer existing they could keep all the production and profits themselves. More expensive engines... maybe initially, but they would pass those extra costs to the customer and eventually the costs would go down as they introduced modern production tools/robots.

    They didn't have to buy Ukrainian engines but they chose to because they know if Ukraine collapses then they have to live next door to chaos.

    The US has no such concerns.

    If EU was really honest about integrating Ukraine and cooperation and help ,it would support An-70 program then help with credits for production line and buy it from Ukraine,.

    Exactly... investment instead of loans.

    There are plenty of countries around the world who will never be able to afford a C-17 or A400, but an An-70 is a capable aircraft that should be rather affordable.

    There is plenty of potential in that aircraft...

    But the EU just sees it as competition and will kill it the first chance it gets... and in 10 years time when the Ukraine is still a burden on the EU they will wonder why they bothered.

    Instead it went into joint venture steal technology and inovations and patents ,and create its own clown A-400M (much more expensive) , china style , and then it bailed out.

    They did the same with the Yak-130... makes you wonder why the Russians bother most of the time with Europe and the US.

    Economic integration does not mean throwing your economic interests out the window and funding a competing plane.

    Nor does it mean economic starvation and crushing all their products and productivity and making them buy everything from you.

    An-70 is a tiny part of the mess that is the Ukranian economy. A mess they have themselves (well, a small elite) to blame for.

    A mess that has two ways out... the EU/US who seem to want living space in the East but don't want cheap skilled labour to threaten their own production industries, or Russia who wants a stable developing neighbour...

    The US and EU probably want a civil war... it will reduce the population and damage Russia all at the same time...


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    sheytanelkebir

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    Re: Ukraine halts all military cooperation with Russia

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:00 am

    I am guessing that "export" customers for Mil/kamovs will end up buying engines from Ukraine and airframes from Russia until Russian production ramps up.

    But that still affects Russia's domestic production needs for new helos.

    AFAIK the chinese are investing in "western" helo engine tech in the form of WZ16.

    Whatever "shortfall" in VK2500 engines Russia suffers in 2014-2015 will be quite minimal I am guessing (maybe delay the delivery of a couple of dozen new helos at most)... but sadly Ukraine will most probably suffer a brain drain as many employees from these arms factories move to Russia...

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