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    Verba MANPAD

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    GarryB
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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:05 am

    But at the end of the story, helicopters are one of the reason to create BMPT.

    Not really... BMPT would not be that effective at more than about 3km range against air targets and its gun mix of AP and HE rounds only means only the HE rounds would be very effective against aerial targets... and the incredibly low rate of fire along with the limited on board supply of 30mm ammo means air defence is a very secondary feature.

    AD complexes as Tor, Tunguska, Pantsir, etc, are usually few kilometers behind the tanks, so usually they very difficultly fire on low hovering helicopters, if they don't want to kill their own troop in front of them.

    The vast majority of targets will be engaged with missiles and operating a few kms behind the tanks means the 1km dead zone around the air defence vehicles is not so relevant as they will be defending vehicles operating inside their engagement zone.

    With modern fire control systems and guided gun launched missiles and excellent long range optics most helos would actually be under serious threat from tanks as well as air defence vehicles.

    Connected with IADS and C4I, BMPT could be well aware of AH-64D

    All vehicles in the battlespace will have a view of the battlefield and if an AH-64D apache is flying around it just needs to be detected and tracked by one air defence asset and it will appear on all the threat maps so BMPs perhaps with 57mm laser guided shells and all other vehicles will see it.

    BMPT will be far closer to Apache than Tunguska and far more dangerous.

    Kornets take 3 seconds to cover 1km... even the old model Sa-19s take less that 10 seconds to travel 8km and with a rather better optimised payload.

    To avoid this helos like the Apache follow a nap of the earth flight and terrain masking as this denies line of sight tracking and weapon aiming or guidance.

    Quite true, though the fact that the US standard short range SAMs are Chapparal and Stinger.... both with less than 6km range, while Soviet/Russian short range SAMs include SA-13, SA-8, Sa-19, SA-22, TOR... of which only SA-13 lacks the range of Hellfire... which is not to say it is vulnerable. Careful positioning of the system so that the likely direction the Apache will come from will mean the SA-13 is completely covered by a building or trees but that when the Apache is exposed to SA-13 fire (and vice versa) the distance is much shorter and gives the SA-13 no disadvantage... it is called an ambush and is much easier with ground forces than with aircraft.

    Proximity detonation will not destroy the AH 64D

    Small arms fire has proven able to bring down an Apache.. the HE power of the SA-19 is enormous compared with an RPG... it would likely blow off the main rotor blades.


    That being said ,existing radar based MAWS technology could be adapted to deal with RPGs as well .

    No it couldn't. An RPG moves at about 375m/s... and to track a target as small as an RPG that will be fired from the ground for any useful period of time... say 10 seconds would mean you are emitting a very powerful signal that could be used to track and engage you. A helicopter pilot would need an absolute minimum of 5 seconds warning of an incoming threat and even then he would need precise information on what manouver to perform... warning of an incoming threat is not enough... just a warning might lead to the pilot turning or changing course and actually flying into an RPG that was going to miss anyway.

    This is not a AH64 D specific problem .

    The Mi 28 , Eurocopter Tiger among others also have to face this challenge .

    Staying low and hiding behind cover protect all helos from threats, but the Mi-28N can fire on a Chapparal or a Stinger knowing their 8km range Ataka-M missiles put them outside the effective range of the threat. The AH64D Apache pilot has 8km range Hellfires to use against Tunguska with 10km range missiles, or Pantsir with 12km range missiles, or TOR with 12km range missiles... or new models with 20km range missiles.

    Used properly the Apache is a very effective attack helo, but it has not rendered Soviet air defence systems of the 1980s obsolete yet and this MANPAD will be useful against it too.

    The Ah 64D was able to drastically reduce direct missile hits in Af-Pak by combining

    (1) the ITT AN/ALQ 211 Suite of RF countermeasures comprising a lamp or laser directed IR jammer,

    (2) an ALE-47 dispenser and an AAR-57 passive UV Common

    (3) Missile Warning System,

    (4) pulse doppler and continuous wave warning receiver ,

    (5) a pulse and continuous wave jammer & RF expendable jammers

    the Apache never faced anything approaching the performance of Tunguska in Iraq or Afghanistan... of the 5 items you listed none of them would stop a SA-19 from 1985 let alone anything newer.

    I am therefore venturing to guess that RPGs will pose a bigger challenge to the Ah 64D than the Verba MANPAD

    I totally agree... simply because there are so many RPGs out there and the obvious fact that the US wont deploy the Apache anywhere where modern MANPADs might be operating... ie KOSOVO et al. Which is perfectly sensible for them to do BTW.

    Direct RPG hit would cause in 90% of the time less damage than a MANPAD or a 125mm HE-frag. RPG's are shaped charges that pierce holes through and as long they do not directly hit with the jetstream fuel tanks, engines, rotors, flightcontrol or pilot it will have much lower result than proximity fuzed weapons.

    Very true. RPGs are designed for penetration and the most widely deployed ones are HEAT and are designed to penetrate armour in the forward sector.

    Further the tactics used for RPG attack involve positioning lots of RPG launchers approximately 950m from where the aircraft are expected because the chance of a direct hit is incredibly low they rely on an air burst where its self destruct fuse sets off the warhead in the hope that fragments might hit the helo.

    Manpads on the other hand are likely to actually make contact with the target while 125mm shells carry rather more HE, and SA-19 has both features.

    the other part is only during NoE flights are RPG's even considered as a threat.

    For a while RPGs were very effective because the western habit of hovering to launch attacks from helicopters.... hovering behind a tree does not hide you from threats behind you or to one side or the other. Obvious tactics is to look around your main base for potential attack points suitable for helos to hide behind cover and then pop up to launch an attack. Send a few men to hide near these points and give them plenty of rockets... not that hard really.

    the Soviet and Russian tactic of diving on the target improves accuracy and reduces vulnerability to small arms fire and RPGs... just keep moving and the chance of getting a hit dramatically reduces.

    For the Soviets in Afghanistan the only time their helos were vulnerable to RPGs was landing troops or taking off with troops... the main victim of RPGs in Afghanistan for the Soviets will the Mi-8... but they soon learned tactics to reduce their vulnerability.


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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:34 am

    Guys, see what you have done with a perfectly good thread on Verba by starting to respond to a forum user like RTN that obviously has no idea about anything that he tries to talk about.

    Is RTN the same as the forum user named Deep Throat, by the way? Their posts are awfully similar.

    I think this thread needs to be cleaned up.

    RTN
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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  RTN on Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:38 am

    GarryB wrote:of the 5 items you listed none of them would stop a SA-19 from 1985 let alone anything newer.

    I didn't say they will act as standalone units . I said these 5 units will be used against an in coming missile . Most of the apaches that carried out operation in Af Pak were armed with all these 5 units .

    GarryB wrote:the Apache never faced anything approaching the performance of Tunguska in Iraq or Afghanistan

    The AH64D encountered Pakistani FK 1000 in the Af Pak region . And as you would recall the FK 1000 is a Chinese copy of the Pantsir S 1 .

    GarryB wrote:Staying low and hiding behind cover protect all helos from threats, but the Mi-28N can fire on a Chapparal or a Stinger knowing their 8km range Ataka-M missiles put them outside the effective range of the threat. The AH64D Apache pilot has 8km range Hellfires to use against Tunguska with 10km range missiles, or Pantsir with 12km range missiles, or TOR with 12km range missiles... or new models with 20km range missiles.

    GarryB , do not take this for rudeness but just like a number of individuals worldwide your vision has been clouded by the PR machinery of various Defense Vendors . And I ain't saying it's your fault . I too have been affected by this relentless publicity in the past . These Defense OEMs uses popular media to cook up stuff and yet fool impressionable folks that just because they repeat a lie a hundred times, the lie is truth.

    The only difference between the AH 64D and the Mi 28 is this . One is American the other is Russian . PERIOD .The rest is basically PR stuff that Boeing , Lockheed sells here in the US and their counterparts do the same in Russia .  

    Protecting helos ( like Mi 28 or AH 64D)  against the shoulder-fired threat is less an exercise in technology than economics: probability and expected-utility. You can't protect every aircraft against every MANPADS (not to mention other threats) in every circumstance. Understanding that specific countermeasures or modes of operation are effective against a finite range of threats, how do you pick the right one for the right platform?

    For US aircraft, in most instances, each has a classified System Threat Assessment Report (STAR), listing and prioritizing the most likely threats to be faced. CM techniques are developed and specified based on these threat lists.The seekers of most IR-guided missiles operate in the middle-IR range (3 µ to 6 µ), which is where hot targets emit most of their radiation.

    The most concern is with those new or upgraded missiles that have detector response in the mid-wave portion of the IR spectrum and that have been given CCM capability.Mid-wave IR response provides all-aspect capability, because the seeker doesn't have to rely on the hot tail pipe but can see adequate signature from the plume and often from the body. These latter signature sources are more difficult to mask with decoys than were the hot-tailpipe sources that earlier- generation threat missiles exploited.

    Warning receivers are definitely the weak link . Because it uses passive IR target acquisition and guidance, a MANPADS missile has left the launch tube before the pilot in the Mi 28  even has a chance to notice that he is under attack. And more often than not, his eyes will be elsewhere when the rocket motor ignites and the SAM begins its assent. Hence the importance of the MAWS in keeping a lookout. Most missile-warning systems use either an IR or an ultraviolet (UV) sensor. UV sensors have limitations with high levels of ozone in the atmosphere, particularly prevalent in urban environments and daylight operations, as ozone levels increase with air pollution and sunlight.

    With IR sensors, sensitivity is not a problem. The difficulty is dealing with a large amount of IR data. Strong background emissions have the potential to saturate detector elements and, even under the best of circumstances, will produce a large increase in detector "noise." Plus, too many things look like a missile, particularly in industrial areas. Furthermore, the problem of passively detecting, identifying, and accurately tracking a small IR/UV source against a highly variable background is not a trivial one to solve, for the makers of the Mi 28 either in terms of hardware or software.This raises the false-alarm problem.

    The false-alarm problem plays havoc with efforts to make IR countermeasures suites more effective. Pulse-Doppler radar is effective for detecting approaching missiles, although a continuously radiating set becomes a beacon to any radar receiver in range.

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:28 pm

    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:the Apache never faced anything approaching the performance of Tunguska in Iraq or Afghanistan

    The AH64D encountered Pakistani FK 1000 in the Af Pak region . And as you would recall the FK 1000 is a Chinese copy of the Pantsir S 1 .
    No, its more like a copy of Tunguska.

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  medo on Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:Not really... BMPT would not be that effective at more than about 3km range against air targets and its gun mix of AP and HE rounds only means only the HE rounds would be very effective against aerial targets... and the incredibly low rate of fire along with the limited on board supply of 30mm ammo means air defence is a very secondary feature.

    BMPT doesn't have only guns, although they are very effective, but also laser guided ATGMs. They will be mostly used against low flying UAVs and helicopters and in self defense against armored vehicles.



    RTN wrote:The AH64D encountered Pakistani FK 1000 in the Af Pak region . And as you would recall the FK 1000 is a Chinese copy of the Pantsir S 1 .

    FK-1000 is not Pantsir-S1 copy, but complex similar to Pantsir. It have tracking radar from Tor. Pakistan doesn't have any FK-1000.

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  Austin on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:40 pm

    MANPADS "Verba" entered the Eastern Military District

    A
    bout 30 of the newest portable air defense systems" Verba "motorized rifle entered service connection Eastern Military District stationed in Khabarovsk Krai", - said A. Gordeev.
    He added that before the end of the year on MANPADS "Willow" will be rearmed zenith division motorized infantry formations deployed in the Primorye Territory.


    MANPADS "Verba" its characteristics of its predecessor "Needle". The missile is equipped with the latest tri-band optical homing. Range from 500 to 6.4 thousand meters, the height of destruction - from 10 to 4.5 thousand meters, speed destroys targets up to 500 m / s.

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  Austin on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:42 pm

    It says verba can intercept target flying at speed of 500 m/s thats ~ Mach 1.5

    Isnt that too low just intercept target flying at M 1.5 what if the target flies slightly above that speed ?

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:02 pm

    Austin wrote:It says verba can intercept target flying at speed of 500 m/s thats ~ Mach 1.5

    Isnt that too low just intercept target flying at M 1.5 what if the target flies slightly above that speed ?

    How do you define "slightly"? 510m/s?

    Military hit probability is measured by 80% or above is counted as Effective evering beneath as uneffective, in other words if a target flies 550m/s or 600 m/s it would have beneath 80% hit probability, but still could hit its target.

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:17 pm

    Nice  thumbsup  - but even nicer thing would be to finally see the damn thing

    MANPADS "Verba" entered the Eastern Military District

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  medo on Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:32 pm

    Viktor wrote:Nice  thumbsup  - but even nicer thing would be to finally see the damn thing

    MANPADS "Verba" entered the Eastern Military District

    Excellent, I hope they integrate them with Barnaul-T complex into IADS.

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    Verba MANPADS

    Post  Austin on Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:48 pm

    I was expecting Verba would intercept a Mach 2-2.5 speed target.

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:05 pm

    The only difference between the AH 64D and the Mi 28 is this . One is American the other is Russian . PERIOD .The rest is basically PR stuff that Boeing , Lockheed sells here in the US and their counterparts do the same in Russia .

    Rubbish.

    Mi-28 is based on years of experience in combat. Ah-64 is something else.

    I have for years defended the tiny windows on the Mi-28 against US strong members on various forums. Footage of 14.5mm cannons placed 5m from the cockpit and fired directly at the windows show no penetrations.

    Claims of a lack of visibility from the small but very well protected canopies can be judged to negate the situational awareness for the pilot and gunner, yet the optical system for the pilot clearly has stereoscopic view ports on the operational models meaning a virtual view of the battlefield from the lower nose of the aircraft should be standard on the operational aircraft eventually.

    Equally DIRCMS systems have been seen on Ka-52 and will be fitted to Mi-28 making optically guided anti aircraft missiles ineffective.

    The AH64D encountered Pakistani FK 1000 in the Af Pak region . And as you would recall the FK 1000 is a Chinese copy of the Pantsir S 1

    Hahahaha... that is very funny... a bit like saying AH-64 is protected from R-77 because Japan has AMRAAM and hasn't shot down any US AH-64s.

    Why would Pakistani SAMs be a threat to US aircraft? ironically US drones are a serious threat to Pakistan, but they are operated by the CIA mostly.

    Excellent, I hope they integrate them with Barnaul-T complex into IADS.

    Verba is new enough to likely be designed to be integrated into IADS like Barnaul-T.


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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  medo on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:00 pm

    GarryB wrote:Verba is new enough to likely be designed to be integrated into IADS like Barnaul-T.

    I have no doubts about Verba itself, but I hope, that units, which receive Verba also receive Barnaul-T complex to fully integrate them in IADS. Also other units with Igla-S and Igla should receive Barnauls-T to improve their capabilities. There was not much news about them after the first complexes received in Caucasus.

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  George1 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:25 pm

    Russian armed forces took delivery of a new man-portable air defense system “Verba”
    Russian Aviaton » Friday August 29, 2014 21:28 MSK

    Russian armed forces took delivery of a new man-portable air defense system “Verba” developed by Kolomna-based Design Bureau of Machine Building (KBM, part of Vysokotochnye Kompleksy (stands for High Precision Systems) Holding Company). This system is unmatched, press-service of Rostec State Corporation reports.
    «State testing of the system was completed in 2011. Today Verba man-portable air defense system is operated by a division of Airborne Forces and an infantry brigade of the Eastern Military District. The personnel, who have already tried the system, say that it is the best one in the world. Verba features unmatched acquisition range and damage area. 9K333 Verba man-portable air defense system outmatches currently operated 9K310 Igla-1, 9K38 Igla and 9K38 Igla-S systems as well as their foreign analogues –Stinger-Block-I (USA) and QW-2 (China) in terms of performance», - said in the press-service’s statement.

    Verba is the next-generation man-portable air defense system. Its performance has been improved thanks to using a brand-new three-spectral seeker (Igla-S is fitted with two-spectral seeker) and a new instrument compartment. Sensitivity of the optical seeker has been increased multiple times and jamming protection was improved. As a result the damage area was expanded and the system’s efficiency was increased. One of the Verba’s main advantages is high probability of hitting a low-signature target: cruise missile, UAV, etc. These air targets are hard to detect and even harder to destroy.

    The system comprises:

    – 9M336 missile,
    – 9P521 launcher,
    – 1L229V ground-based interrogator (friend or foe),
    – 9V861 mobile control station,
    – 1L122 small-size radar detector,
    – 9C931 mission planning module,
    – 9C932-1 reconnaissance and control module,
    – 9C933 portable fire control module (brigade kit),
    – 9C933-1 built-in installation kit (divisional kit),
    – 9C935 automation facilities set for AA sniper,
    – training equipment.

    Moreover, the system’s quality and reliability have been improved and its maintenance has been eased. «Now there is no need to carry out periodic checks including cooling of the seeker with nitrogen. This fact allows the armed forces to stop using additional equipment, nitrogen storages and use less human resources. At the same time the high degree of commonality between Verba and older models has been kept in terms of combat performance, operation, maintenance and personnel training. KBM signed a long-term agreement with Russian Ministry of Defense for delivery of Verba systems and launched its mass production», - Rostec added.

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  Mike E on Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:28 pm

    Sweet! I can't wait to see just how good it really is... Very Happy cheers russia

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  George1 on Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:09 pm

    New Verba MANPADS will replace Russia’s legendary Igla-S

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  BlackArrow on Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:22 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    High ballistic tolerance? There's been at least one documented case of a 7.62x39mm rounds fired from an AK-47 and penetrating Apache window glass and hitting one of the pilots in the throat which occurred in Iraq:

    "...King and Tomblin's Apache was hit by a burst of AK-47 fire which penetrated the cockpit and struck the former in the throat as he was calling out fires..."

    http://tinyurl.com/nr592np

    The glass window panels of the AH-64 were never designed to withstand 7.62 mm rounds in the first place - the glass is only supposed to have the minimum ballistic protection - and why shouldn't it be enough? How many AH-64s were shot down with small arms fire anyway?

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:50 am

    BlackArrow wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    High ballistic tolerance? There's been at least one documented case of a 7.62x39mm rounds fired from an AK-47 and penetrating Apache window glass and hitting one of the pilots in the throat which occurred in Iraq:

    "...King and Tomblin's Apache was hit by a burst of AK-47 fire which penetrated the cockpit and struck the former in the throat as he was calling out fires..."

    http://tinyurl.com/nr592np

    The glass window panels of the AH-64 were never designed to withstand 7.62 mm rounds in the first place - the glass is only supposed to have the minimum ballistic protection - and why shouldn't it be enough? How many AH-64s were shot down with small arms fire anyway?

    And that is a big flaw for crew protection. Having "some ballistic protection" which can not stop anti aircraft or combat relative calibres such as 7.62mm is a waste of weight. It is like in the case of LCH which has suppossedly some "light transparency armor" of light weight too. Putting some BP glass against pistol calibres on aircraft is just waste of weight and money, no one is going to shot over 1km+ with pistols on aircrafts, if it is not some BP glass that at least can stop 7.62mm it is just dead weight.

    There are actually quite a few accidents of Apaches getting knocked out by small arms fire, the reports often just say were "shot down" without specifics but at least 4 Apaches were shot down in OIF with small arms fire.
    No recent reports found which specify more on it, most "reports" just say shot down and that is pretty vague.
    The point is why not putting at least for frontal windscreen BP glass that can stop 12.7mm or at least 7.62mm, it will surely not downgrade the helicopter.

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:33 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    High ballistic tolerance? There's been at least one documented case of a 7.62x39mm rounds fired from an AK-47 and penetrating Apache window glass and hitting one of the pilots in the throat which occurred in Iraq:

    "...King and Tomblin's Apache was hit by a burst of AK-47 fire which penetrated the cockpit and struck the former in the throat as he was calling out fires..."

    http://tinyurl.com/nr592np

    The glass window panels of the AH-64 were never designed to withstand 7.62 mm rounds in the first place - the glass is only supposed to have the minimum ballistic protection - and why shouldn't it be enough? How many AH-64s were shot down with small arms fire anyway?

    What a ridiculous excuse, the Apache helicopters are CAS aircraft, for them 'not' to have BP glass is like having a tracked MBT that lacks cross-country ability...that's a major contradiction of it's purpose either way you slice it.

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:56 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    What a ridiculous excuse, the Apache helicopters are CAS aircraft, for them 'not' to have BP glass is like having a tracked MBT that lacks cross-country ability...that's a major contradiction of it's purpose either way you slice it.

    I aggree that at least the frontal windshield should be BP glass since it ranges in operations like Escort and Close Air Support between 700m and 400m from its target, well within effective weapon range of small arms and at such ranges it is very well visible with naked eye, so the necessity for BP glass is there, it is out of question that that would be appreciated by the pilots.

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:08 am

    The curved canopy of the Hind was not bullet proof but the flat front windshield was able to stop 23mm cannon rounds.

    The all round protection on the Mi-28 is a response to fighting in Afghanistan with riflemen firing from the side from mountains with simple rifles, or indeed heavy calibre 12.7mm HMG calibre rifles supplied by the CIA.

    Knowing how thin the canopies are on the Apache even an SVD will do.


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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:30 am

    Knowing how thin the canopies are on the Apache even an SVD will do.

    A screw driver will do for the canopy sides and for the front side you will need more like a pistol maybe a M4.

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  Viktor on Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:42 pm

    New batch delivered thumbsup

    2014Latest Russian MANPADS "Verba" superior "Stinger"

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  marcinko on Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:The curved canopy of the Hind was not bullet proof but the flat front windshield was able to stop 23mm cannon rounds.

    The all round protection on the Mi-28 is a response to fighting in Afghanistan with riflemen firing from the side from mountains with simple rifles, or indeed heavy calibre 12.7mm HMG calibre rifles supplied by the CIA.

    Knowing how thin the canopies are on the Apache even an SVD will do.

    Regarding the Apache, if I remember correctly I think some of them were badly shot with ak-47, like gunner hit in the leg

    Maybe it was described in Lions of kandahar by Bradley

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    Re: Verba MANPAD

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:28 pm

    Even a screwdriver will do for the side windshields, the front will be penetrated by any rifle cartridge.

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      Current date/time is Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:36 pm