Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #1

I think it is more connected to the expected role that the ship play.

The Kuz was designed for all out war, with all forces fight against similar sized enemy forces.

The Kuz designed or this purpose, but due to that it is not so fit to fight against weaker enemy.


The other is the US model, where the ship is designed / optimised to fight against enemy that is weaker than the attacker, and the carrier works in a protected environment.

Practically the US model is based on superior industrial / manufacturing base , that can make average/above average quality equipment for cheap in huge volume.


Actually that is the reason why it is so important to know the manufacturing cost in relationship to the country economic capability.

GarryB wrote:

There'll be plenty of them to last many years once other platforms switch to Kalibrs/Oniks.

Why would there be plenty of them? The major flaw in the big heavy supersonic anti ship missile concept is that only big heavy expensive platforms can carry them.

Their SSGNs & CGNs, after switching to Kalibrs/Onikses, etc. will free up dozens of Granits. Also, its airwing can carry other ASh/CMs, even if just 1 at a time, just like the Chinese J-15, USN F-18s, Italian, Indian & Iranian naval helos:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/moskit.htm
http://propro.ru/flankers/eng/su-33.htm  https://imgur.com/ULVm4QI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29K#Specifications_.28MiG-29K.29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-802#Variants
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F/A-18_Hornet#Specifications_.28F.2FA-18C.2FD.29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet#Specifications_.28F.2FA-18E.2FF.29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Killer
http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/113898/20170502/iran-s-revolutionary-guards-navy-receives-copies-chinese-c-704.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-35
http://pakdef.org/anti-ship-missiles-india-and-pakistan/

What I was trying to say was that before the only platforms that carried Granit were Kirov, Oscar, and Kuznetsov... the Slava class had Vulkans.

As the number of these vessels shrink the number of Granits that can be carried diminishes making the system rather less viable... Oscars are getting Onyx, Kirovs are getting UKSK launchers, which leaves the Granits in the Kuznetsov.

They likely would not have had an enormous stock of Granits in the first place and over time training and simply time will have reduced stocks to very low levels anyway.

If three Onyx missiles fit into one Granit tube in an Oscar class sub then the potential for Kuznetsov is simply to strap three Onyx missiles together, where one is a solid rocket booster to drag the two missiles out of the tube and up to flight speed to then fall away and leave the remaining two missiles still strapped together to double the flight range... one could be a standard missile and the other could just be liquid fuel burning in the ramjet engine of the other missile... the throttle being used to maintain a high speed but not top speed and to slowly climb... eventually the "extra" missile can be dropped leaving the remaining missile with two or three times the range and full fuel tanks already high in the air at supersonic speed.

Pretty soon there will just be the granits on the K and so it makes no sense to keep them... replace them with UKSK launcher bins... you should be able to get at least two or three in the space for the 12 Granits...

It means you can remove the Granits from the inventory and make more Onyx and other missiles that can be available at all russian ports for reloads.

Well, time will tell, but my gut feeling they want to have this refit done as fast as possible w/o undue risks, delays & within the budget. For more firepower, 1-2 extra ships/subs adequately armed could be included in the group to make up for the loss of organic long range ASh/CMs. Lastly, why can't they resume low-rate production of Granits?

Lastly, why can't they resume low-rate production of Granits?

Why can't they put the AKM back into production... both are old but still effective.

The point is that the Onyx was developed to replace the Granit.

It does not have the same range but it is faster and much more compact so with the same volume of space available you can have 4 times more Onyx missiles than Granits.

The 20 granit tubes in the Kirov are going to be replaced with 10 UKSK launchers... that means 80 tubes replacing 20.

More importantly all new missiles will be based on the UKSK tube dimensions so the Zircon can also be launched from these tubes without modification. A mach 8 missile in larger numbers... what is not to like?

The new Russian navy is going for multi purpose multi use... the current Kuznetsov can carry 12 Granits, which gave it a capability against ships. Recently a land attack capability has been added to the Granits, but UKSK launchers means land attack, anti ship, and anti sub capability and future expansion of the weapon range including hypersonic missiles.

Why go back to Granits?

Not that Granits are bad, but they are huge and heavy... they are also fast and have good range, but developments like Brahmos-M able to be carried by fighter aircraft suggests a similar development of Zircon has potential too... why go backwards for a missile no other ship will be carrying soon?

Having Granits only on the K means in 20 years time you still need Granits stored at all your naval bases... say the K is based in the Northern Fleet and heads to the Pacific fleet and fires a few missiles during tests... does it have to sail back to the northern fleet to rearm? Are you going to store Granits in bases where the K is not based just in case?

Are you going to truck or fly in missiles? remember these are 10m+ long 7 ton weapons...

Whereas with UKSK launchers every fleet will have those missiles because all their ships will use them too.

I doubt that it'll ever go to the Pacific while homeported in Severomorsk; but even if it does, Granits can be sent ahead of time by IL-76s, AN-22/124s &/ rail to Magadan, Petropavlovsk, & Vladivostok. If need be, they can be loaded at sea by a floating crane. For me, "the jury is still out" whether Granits will stay on it or not after this modernization.
BTW, 24 of them were recovered from scrapped Kursk SSGN & to my knowledge nothing replaced it. http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/oscar-submarine/
Perhaps this time they plan to put her to sea sooner but the next refit will include the change to Kalibrs. Besides, it's still unknown how successful the powerplant update is going to be- that alone may keep it in the yard longer & cost more than planned. Indeed, it makes more sense to spend extra time & $ on that (finally dispensing with that pathetic ocean tug escort every time it leaves port!) than putting newer armaments that other & newer platforms can carry.

I agree with the propulsion upgrade as being more important... they certainly did a great job of upgrading the propulsion on the ex-Gorshkov carrier...

Regarding the Granit by eliminating a whole family of missiles from the inventory they save a lot of money... remaining Granits can be used for air defence testing... on land and at sea...

Repair of "Adm. Kuznetsov" has risen in price, and no money on the new a/c carriers: http://www.ng.ru/news/583283.html?print=Y#
this corroborates the earlier leak, and it sounds like true to me.
A few years back, before those optimistic statements about building 6 nuclear carriers, someone in Russia said that "we won't be building huge carriers like the Americans have". Now the reality reasserted itself. IMO, Russia doesn't need them as much as China or even India. Update: http://www.newsweek.com/russia-china-military-cooperation-enormous-drills-south-china-sea-622267 Her geographical & geopolitical situation is different & she has other means to project enough power to defend her interests. RF & PRC are the 2 dominant powers in the "Heartland" of Eurasia- "The World Island", while W/N Europe, ME/W/S/SE Asia are "Rimlands". Once the New Silk Road project is fully operational, it'll be indisputable that, if not "whoever controls the World Island controls the World", at least the USA (& other American states) will become marginalized as never before! http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/whoever-controls-eurasia-controls-world/ri10549
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History#The_World-Island_and_the_Heartland

A Nimitz style carrier would not be useful for Russia...

A smaller lighter carrier makes more sense.

The role of their carrier is to defend a group of ships, not to bomb a country into submission.

If they need to attack ground targets it makes rather more sense to use Onyx or Kalibr.

Yes, like this 1 with STOVL fighters: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2280578.html

People miss the point when they say "a smaller aircraft carrier is good enough".
It doesn't cost much more for Russia to build a larger carrier. As a carrier gets bigger, its capacity gets exponentially larger. Its basic maths. Thats why oil tankers that don't have to navigate canals etc are absolutely huge. You get a bigger Ruble return ie more planes per Ruble by building a large carrier ie modernised Ulyanovsk than another Kuznetsov.

The big cost isn't the steel and size, its all the fancy electronics and stuff. Which would be of a very similar cost on a new Kuznetsov.

So its not about "cock measuring" its about getting better value.

And the fact "Russia is a land power" doesn't dispute the fact that carriers will be useful in many situations.

But in Russia's case, they'll need to refit & build many other small, medium, & large ships & subs, incl. nuclear icebreakers, possibly w/o access to Nikolaev shipyard, for years to come. Also, nuclear carriers are longer to build &, after 15-20 years, must spend 2-4 years while in midlife refueling and comprehensive overhaul (RCOH). So, it'll make sense to get a few smaller conventional carriers 1st in any case. That's what China is doing now, & her economy is in a lot better shape, to say the least!

Yes... one carrier is not good enough in the long term... they will need a few... so making them smaller makes them more affordable.

Most importantly these carriers are not the core that the fleet is built around like US carriers... a Russian Army is not built around the main airfield of Frontal Aviation that supports it...

An aircraft carrier in the Russian Navy is all about extending vision with anti sub helos and CAP support aircraft and AWACS type aircraft and extending reach with CAP with AAMs and flight ranges of 1,000km from the ships they operate from.

99% of their operational lives will be operations in peace time when a target on a radar screen cannot simply be destroyed because the commander is paranoid.

Without a carrier you wait and watch and guess.

With a carrier you can send out a group of fighter aircraft that are armed and they can investigate a suspicious target... if it turns out to be a threat then you can deal with it very very early.

Experience of US ships in the Persian Gulf where an AEGIS class cruiser shot down a civilian airliner... carrier aircraft could have been called in to investigate and save almost 300 lives.

The USS Liberty attack stopped when mayday requests were answered by a US carrier stating aircraft were on the way...

They aren't perfect and they aren't cheap, but they add so many capabilities and flexibility and options, and greatly increase the depth of air defences for any naval force.

Even just a cruise missile attack can be more effective if aircraft are used to engage enemy aircraft during the attack to reduce the number of intercepted cruise missiles.

http://russia-insider.com/en/military/fancy-13-billion-us-aircraft-carrier-not-so-good-carrying-aircraft/ri20137

So the Ford class aircraft carrier is having capture problems. All the bitching about the Kuznetsov and not a
peep about the fail by the self-anointed masters of the universe.

This post is not OT for this thread given the thread history. It serves as a reminder that instant gratification
for ships and other complex equipment is merely a fanboi delusion.

The same with recent Liman sinking off Turkey & USS Fitzgerald collision off Japan! But to be fair, the USN can always go back to Nimitz class design should Ford systems fail its expectations. Every new class of carriers has teething problems, & being 2nd to none in this business, the USN has/will be given enough reserves to make up for it, as long as USA is still on the map of N. America! However, the Russians have gained some valuable experience with modifying ex-Gorshkov for India & operating Adm.K in the Med. Sea, & will put it to good use modernizing the latter. After the refit, it'll be used again to hone their skills in exercises & real world ops, while also learning from others' mistakes!

the key is learning the right lessons from experience... your own experience and the experience of others.

Many of the lessons to be learned don't apply to Russia, because it has no colonies to support/control, like the US.

Some here talk as though Russia would be better off with a navy like the USN... and the fact of the matter is supporting the USN would kill Russia quicker than losing any conflict could.

Agreed, but to stay relevant in & around EurAsia, the Russian Navy widely separated fleets must be on a par with current & future RN, Dutch, French, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Finnish, Polish, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Greek, Turkish, Israeli, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Georgian, Azeri, Kazakh, Iranian, Pakistani, Chinese, Japanese, N/S. Korean, Thai, & Indian Navies, in addition to the USN & RCN, - if not in quantity, then in quality. Hence the more cost effective emphasis on submarines, missile boats, shore based naval aviation & missile batteries. Also, SSBN patrol areas & their approaches must be protected in the Arctic, around Kola & Kamchatka.

Some pics & vid of loading operations off Syria using the floating crane from Sevastopol http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2681361.html & http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2677921.html

I wonder if an Mi-6/-26, besides Mi-38, with supplies could safely land on it. They don't have C-2 (req. CAT) nor V-22 counterparts yet.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=283
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-6#Operators
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/milmi-26heavylifthel/
https://www.rbth.com/news/2016/09/12/russia-to-develop-military-version-of-mi-38-helicopter-by-2018_629081 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-38
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_C-2_Greyhound
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey

The V-22 is an accident waiting to happen and I am glad they don't have an equivalent... it just looks unbalanced and delicate.

The V-44 at least looked stable, but I still don't like it much.

Makes rather more sense to either use medium helos like Mi-38, or ships alongside with cranes.

Agreed, but to stay relevant in & around EurAsia, the Russian Navy widely separated fleets must be on a par with current & future RN, Dutch, French, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Finnish, Polish, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Greek, Turkish, Israeli, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Georgian, Azeri, Kazakh, Iranian, Pakistani, Chinese, Japanese, N/S. Korean, Thai, & Indian Navies, in addition to the USN & RCN, - if not in quantity, then in quality.

Those countries will never have their entire fleet up against one Russian fleet, so no.

The Russian fleet does not need to be anything it is not... it is getting better... the more important features being upgraded behind the scenes, like satellite communications and command and control systems all being upgraded, while weapons and sensors are also being vastly improved and standardised.

There is nothing else they need to do.

But they can combine elements of their respective fleets in the Baltic, Barents, Black, Med., Red, Arabian, E./S. China, & Japan Seas + the Arctic. This already happened many times: https://news.usni.org/2016/06/01/highend_baltic_ex_message_to_russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Mainbrace http://navaltoday.com/2015/07/07/snmg1-snmcmg2-to-train-in-the-black-sea/ http://navaltoday.com/2017/02/08/natos-new-operation-maps-mediterranean-sea-patterns-of-life/ http://www.maritime-executive.com/editorials/iranian-naval-capabilities-in-the-red-sea
http://en.trend.az/iran/politics/2767602.html http://en.trend.az/iran/politics/2764008.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ocean_Shield#Vessels_deployed http://navaltoday.com/2017/03/30/us-carrier-group-maneuvers-with-japanese-ships-in-east-china-sea/ http://www.scout.com/military/warrior/story/1643832-us-japan-counter-china-in-south-china-sea http://thehill.com/policy/defense/331236-strike-group-arrives-in-sea-of-japan https://www.rt.com/uk/339128-uk-submarines-deployed-arctic/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICEX:_US_Navy_Mission_in_Arctic
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/year-2015-news/january-2015-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/2313-french-navy-asw-frigate-conducted-rare-deployment-to-strategic-arctic-area.html http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-the-next-nato-russia-crisis-could-go-down-the-arctic-17861?page=show
The closed (so far) Caspian Sea is is the strategic body of water Russia can use to project power in the Transcaucasus, ME, & C./S. Asia as CM strikes by its flotilla so well demonstrated. Besides it, there are 4 naval forces present that 1 day may pose a threat, & Iran has mini subs there. http://www.eurasianet.org/node/83216
Even friendlies among all of them must be assured of new Russian naval might! http://georgiatoday.ge/news/6886/From-the-Caspian-Sea-to-the-Persian-Gulf%3F http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-great-russia-china-south-china-sea-naval-hook-why-it-17966?page=show http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/The-Hidden-Motives-Of-The-Chinese-Silk-Road.html
From another thread: Austin

interesting article As Russian "discreetly" deployed missile defense
http://politrussia.com/vooruzhennye-sily/kak-rossiya-laquo-nezametno-raquo-426/ http://politrussia.com/vooruzhennye-sily/kak-mozhet-vyglyadet-228/

To have a sea based BMD in the Indian Ocean may be another good excuse to build a new class of CGN!

Что касается авианесущего крейсера "Адмирал Кузнецов", то, по мнению эксперта, после модернизации за ним сохранятся определенные задачи.
"По мировой классификации "Адмирал Кузнецов" не является авианосцем, он является авианесущим крейсером, на нем есть ракетное вооружение. И, в соответствии с Конвенцией Монтре, он имеет право заходить в Черное море. Американские авианосцы, например, не имеют такого права, потому что они  юридически являются авианосцами. А на Черном море авианосец нам нужен для того, чтобы решать задачи на Ближнем Востоке, в Средиземном море", – пояснил Андрей Головатюк. https://ria.ru/radio_brief/20170628/1497473410.html

After the refit, Adm.K may change its home port to Sevastopol. It's ~5 times closer to E. Med. than transiting the English Channel & Gibraltar, & the weather is a lot better in the Black Sea to allow more training. They may also send it to the Indian Ocean. RF MOD: QE is a fat target for Adm.Khttp://www.ng.ru/news/585999.html?print=Y

New boilers for K http://nortwolf-sam.blogspot.co.nz/2017/08/blog-post_89.html



There was some stuff a while back that this won't be the big refit afterall, just the engines & minor other stuff.

hoom wrote:New boilers for K http://nortwolf-sam.blogspot.co.nz/2017/08/blog-post_89.html

Quite interestingly, in the second picture, the Admiral Chabanenko, Udaloy II destroyer is under work of some king, maybe retrofit or modernization.

Ok, it's on Wikipedia that it is in repairs since 2014 and that the repairs will last 3 years, are there any news on some kind of modernization?

miroslav wrote:

hoom wrote:New boilers for K http://nortwolf-sam.blogspot.co.nz/2017/08/blog-post_89.html

Quite interestingly, in the second picture, the Admiral Chabanenko, Udaloy II destroyer is under work of some king, maybe retrofit or modernization.

Ok, it's on Wikipedia that it is in repairs since 2014 and that the repairs will last 3 years, are there any news on some kind of modernization?

Ruskies said they will give it, Modern cannon, Calibers, Naval S-400 and redo all of the electronics of course if they actually are doing this remains to be seen we have heard them make pretty grand claims before only to see that was not the case.