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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

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    Militarov
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:44 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    AB is far from old. It's a brilliant class.


    It is a brilliant milking cow for the manufacturer.


    Wartime capability never proved.

    Surely Slava, Kirovs and Kuz are wartime proven? lol1

    AB is atm worlds most numerous capital ship with very good service record, what else you can ask from it.


    Very good observation.


    So, what is the better ship based on the wartime experiences against capable enemies :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Abraham_Lincoln_(CVN-72)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_aircraft_carrier_Admiral_Kuznetsov
    ?

    The best that we can say is "we don't know" , unless you know a lot of classified information.



    I will go with Nimitz class. Unless Kuz overnight tripled in size, quadrupled its airwing and got nuclear propulsion.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:53 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    AB is far from old. It's a brilliant class.


    It is a brilliant milking cow for the manufacturer.


    Wartime capability never proved.

    Surely Slava, Kirovs and Kuz are wartime proven? lol1

    AB is atm worlds most numerous capital ship with very good service record, what else you can ask from it.


    Very good observation.


    So, what is the better ship based on the wartime experiences against capable enemies :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Abraham_Lincoln_(CVN-72)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_aircraft_carrier_Admiral_Kuznetsov
    ?

    The best that we can say is "we don't know" , unless you know a lot of classified information.



    I will go with Nimitz class. Unless Kuz overnight tripled in size, quadrupled its airwing and got nuclear propulsion.

    Shtorm?!

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:50 am

    another momentous facepalm moment here...

    Russian Su-33 crashed in the Mediterranean while attempting to land on Kuznetsov aircraft carrier



    By David Cenciotti
    Dec 05 2016

    Less than three weeks after losing a MiG-29, it looks like the Russian Navy has lost another aircraft during Admiral Kuznetsov operations: a Su-33 Flanker.
    Military sources close to The Aviationist report that a Russian Navy Su-33 Flanker carrier-based multirole aircraft has crashed during flight operations from Admiral Kuznetsov on Saturday, Dec. 3.

    According to the report, the combat plane crashed at its second attempt to land on the aircraft carrier in good weather conditions (visibility +10 kilometers, Sea State 4, wind at 12 knots): it seems that it missed the wires and failed to go around falling short of the bow of the warship.

    The pilot successfully ejected and was picked up by a Russian Navy search and rescue helicopter.

    Considered that on Nov. 14 a MiG-29K crashed while recovering to the aircraft carrier, if confirmed this would be the second loss for the air wing embarked on Admiral Kuznetsov in less than three weeks and a significant blow for the Russian Naval Aviation during its combat deployment off Syria.

    https://theaviationist.com/2016/12/05/russian-su-33-crashed-in-the-mediterranean-while-attempting-to-land-on-kuznetsov-aircraft-carrier/

    Good thing the pilot is alright. They really need to get better at this. No


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:52 am

    Well....that is pretty dam sad.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  hoom on Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:37 pm

    https://ria.ru/syria/20161205/1482849302.html
    The incident occurred due to the breakage of a cable arresting gear.
    dunno

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Honesroc on Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:54 pm

    hoom wrote:https://ria.ru/syria/20161205/1482849302.html
    The incident occurred due to the breakage of a cable arresting gear.
    dunno

    They should sell that ship to the Indians along with a couple more Akula's.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:08 pm

    Yeah... where is Admiral Kuz defence panel to post something encouraging coz i have nothing...

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:10 pm

    Militarov wrote:Yeah... where is Admiral Kuz defence panel to post something encouraging coz i have nothing...

    There's nothing to defend here, the Kuznetsov isn't suited at those birds, and there is no denying it. And hell it will not be suited even if it gets a catapult.
    Massive PR failure.

    Also they doubled the operational cost for december already. I guess there's only two things to do now, get the ship back and out, and try with an actual adapted carrier instead of this.


    Last edited by KoTeMoRe on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:11 pm

    Militarov wrote:Yeah... where is Admiral Kuz defence panel to post something encouraging coz i have nothing...

    #boilergate #cablegate #Kuzgate #godknowswhatelsegate

    unshaven

    Russia is winning that war with or without that carrier, they might as well call it a day. Kuz is drunk, time to go home.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:13 pm

    Militarov wrote:Yeah... where is Admiral Kuz defence panel to post something encouraging coz i have nothing...

    I GOT IT.

    "Admiral Kuznecov Ka-27 CSAR crews performing with an excellence".

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:25 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Yeah... where is Admiral Kuz defence panel to post something encouraging coz i have nothing...

    There's nothing to defend here, the Kuznetsov isn't suited at those birds, and there is no denying it. And hell it will not be suited even if it gets a catapult.
    Massive PR failure.

    Also they doubled the operational cost for december already. I guess there's only two things to do now, get the ship back and out, and try with an actual adapted carrier instead of this.

    Well i said at the start, Kuz is there on PR mission which liked we it or not is failing. Well i dont know if there is going to be much point in it, as they said they would just overhaul and modernise existing layout and systems, there wont be any major concept changes so...

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:31 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Yeah... where is Admiral Kuz defence panel to post something encouraging coz i have nothing...

    There's nothing to defend here, the Kuznetsov isn't suited at those birds, and there is no denying it. And hell it will not be suited even if it gets a catapult.
    Massive PR failure.

    Also they doubled the operational cost for december already. I guess there's only two things to do now, get the ship back and out, and try with an actual adapted carrier instead of this.

    Well i said at the start, Kuz is there on PR mission which liked we it or not is failing. Well i dont know if there is going to be much point in it, as they said they would just overhaul and modernise existing layout and systems, there wont be any major concept changes so...

    Which is logical there's no point starting by these designs, if they want a carrier they will have to go the US way. It's as easy as that.
    Also we are in total agreement, it's a nightmare PR disaster. But what scares me the most is that they have managed to play it nice for many weeks, although I suspect there have been a lot more hairy situations. So Holy F*** why do they keep doing this.

    Eastern Europeans just don't know the boundary between brave and irresponsibly stupid.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Ned86 on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:46 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Eastern Europeans just don't know the boundary between brave and irresponsibly stupid.
    That is why they won second world war, and now they don't speak German....

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:49 pm

    Ned86 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Eastern Europeans just don't know the boundary between brave and irresponsibly stupid.
    That is why they won second world war, and now they don't speak German....

    ... You're talking to an Eastern European...

    What is good for SHTF situations is disastrous for care-taking situations. Basically it's always switch mode. Only extremes.

    I don't think that doing the same old is helping anyone here.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:55 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Yeah... where is Admiral Kuz defence panel to post something encouraging coz i have nothing...

    There's nothing to defend here, the Kuznetsov isn't suited at those birds, and there is no denying it. And hell it will not be suited even if it gets a catapult.
    Massive PR failure.

    Also they doubled the operational cost for december already. I guess there's only two things to do now, get the ship back and out, and try with an actual adapted carrier instead of this.

    Well i said at the start, Kuz is there on PR mission which liked we it or not is failing. Well i dont know if there is going to be much point in it, as they said they would just overhaul and modernise existing layout and systems, there wont be any major concept changes so...

    Which is logical there's no point starting by these designs, if they want a carrier they will have to go the US way. It's as easy as that.
    Also we are in total agreement, it's a nightmare PR disaster. But what scares me the most is that they have managed to play it nice for many weeks, although I suspect there have been a lot more hairy situations. So Holy F*** why do they keep doing this.

    Eastern Europeans just don't know the boundary between brave and irresponsibly stupid.

    Well i can only imagine how many "danger close" situations they had...


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Ned86 on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:59 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:

    ... You're talking to an Eastern European...

    What is good for SHTF situations is disastrous for care-taking situations. Basically it's always switch mode. Only extremes.

    I don't think that doing the same old is helping anyone here.
    Particular Accident happened right after they replaced cable with "new" one. Probably crew haven't done it properly or cable was in bad condition or something else.....we will know soon....

    So this was surprising even for Russian navy....
    anyway accident happens...
    There is no need that because of stupid cable, or broken mechanism offend all eastern Europeans.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:21 pm

    Ned86 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:

    ... You're talking to an Eastern European...

    What is good for SHTF situations is disastrous for care-taking situations. Basically it's always switch mode. Only extremes.

    I don't think that doing the same old is helping anyone here.
    Accident happened right after they replace cable with "new" one. Probably crew haven't done it properly or cable was in bad condition or something else.....we will know soon....

    So this was surprising even for Russian navy....
    anyway accident happens...
    There is no need that because of stupid cable, or broken mechanism offend all eastern Europeans.

    Once again, I'd be offending myself. Second the fact that they are having known issues bite back, is no mistake, it's lack of foresight. Third this is the typical "let's do it and see how it pans out improvisation" I've been witnessing all my life, including personal choices, like my own.

    I can list at least a dozen cases (starting by my marriage and my migration out of the Balkans). We're always facing situations we know are hairy, ill-thought, half planned, irrationally designed, and we go on with them. And guess what, most of the time we have to devote twice the work to make them run. That's the definition of inefficiency. And that's how it is in Eastern Europe. Don't take me wrong, I wouldn't change my life, my opinions, my experience with anything else in this world, but let's not pretend we're super accurate and super brainiac people when it comes to life or death choices. That's why we usually compensate with bravery and(or) hard work.




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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:25 pm


    I ain't defending anything here, they clearly suck, but a few things to consider:

    - This is first time in it's history that Russian Navy is doing carrier ops in actual war. First time that non-NATO navy is doing it since end of Cold War in fact.

    - The are doing it with only vessel of the type, that was never good from the get go and that was supposed to be in overhaul ATM.

    - They never stopped carrier operation like some suggested after MiG-29 splash.

    - PR aspect is overblown because after ''aborted invasion of UK'' month ago nobody is even reporting on this and when it does get reported is is quickly replaced with next big thing 6 hours later. Last time I checked, Mordor is still winning this war so that particular PR will be way more important down the road.

    - As long as nobody is killed they might as well chuck all the birds overboard Saigon-style, it doesn't matter as long as the data is collected.

    - If they stayed in port then there would be no embarrassment but they would also have zero clue about what specific areas they suck at.

    - Cable snapped twice. So they suck at all things cable related. But this also means that pilots did not fuck up and that aircraft operate properly. Hell, other than cable you can say that even that ship operates properly (for now that is...).

    - Russian carrier ops suck. They suck so hard. But how much exactly? They will finally know after this. And it is better to learn those things in BS excuse for war like Syria than at some later war that might actually be relevant unlike this one.  

    Or should they start designing and building next AC platform under assumption that they know all this, that they are super awesome at AC ops, and that they just need to keep doing the same thing as before?


    Keep flying, keep splashing if you have to, keep not dying and most important of all, keep gathering data.



    Additional tip: Someone should really look into that cable thingy...  lol1

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:40 pm

    If somehow it is found the cables are "reconditioned" from Soviet stocks, heads will roll.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:43 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:If somehow it is found the cables are "reconditioned" from Soviet stocks, heads will roll.

    I somehow highly doubt they made new arresting cables like... ever.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  hoom on Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:49 pm

    Its not like arrestor cable snapping is especially rare, there is plenty of footage of US arrestor wires snapping on Youtube.

    Twice in a short time is not good though, could be systematic but could just be bad luck.

    Apparently the Mig-29K lands faster than Su-33 so could be overstressing the design, though haven't heard of India having arrestor issues.
    Maybe a batch of cables below spec?
    Also if it was out of order waiting for parts then possibly something temp-fixed re-broke?

    Aside from the pilots surviving it's somewhat impressive there are no reports of injury or death to deck crew.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:55 pm

    hoom wrote:Its not like arrestor cable snapping is especially rare, there is plenty of footage of US arrestor wires snapping on Youtube.

    Twice in a short time is not good though, could be systematic but could just be bad luck.

    Apparently the Mig-29K lands faster than Su-33 so could be overstressing the design, though haven't heard of India having arrestor issues.
    Maybe a batch of cables below spec?
    Also if it was out of order waiting for parts then possibly something temp-fixed re-broke?

    Aside from the pilots surviving it's somewhat impressive there are no reports of injury or death to deck crew.

    When we are at it, my favourite snap


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:03 pm

    hoom wrote:.............

    Aside from the pilots surviving it's somewhat impressive there are no reports of injury or death to deck crew.

    About that, I noticed that there are barely any crew on the deck during takeoffs and landings, so that is one upside to whatever approach they seem to be using on Kuz.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:09 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:If somehow it is found the cables are "reconditioned" from Soviet stocks, heads will roll.

    I somehow highly doubt they made new arresting cables like... ever.

    ... the worst part is that I'm not even doubting this.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Kimppis on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:11 pm

    (Posting for the first time in a while, but anyway...)

    Yeah, a PR disaster for sure, but it also could have been worse. Pilots are OK and the ship is still afloat and operational. It also seems that it's not the fault of the aircraft, or pilot training, or even crew training (atleast for the most part...). But man... they must have been aware of the issues, really risky.

    The negative PR is countered by the fact that most people, who obviously don't know much about military matters or follow the Syrian conflict regularly, are probably not too aware of the scale of casualties that a country is "supposed" to suffer during an intervention. Sure, they kinda know that for Murica they have been low overall since the Gulf War, but they don't know the exact numbers. So a few aircraft here and there... doesn't matter in one way or another, and they're of course right. And in general the Russian casualties have been low. If this ends up being the last loss for Kuznetsov (and to be honest, it really should be), then who will remember it even a few years down the line?

    Now the question is: are they going to actually continue operations or are they going to send the carrier back home? If they keep this up, they might lose a third jet, which would be... well, really bad and arguably a much worse PR disaster than just giving up carrier operations in Syria altogether. If losing a single Mig-29K wasn't a huge deal (and it wasn't), then this was 10x more embarrassing, but still sort of manageable... losing a third one would be 100x or worse. Idk...

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