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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

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    GarryB
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:14 am

    Not really. Having permanent tug escort is Kuz's special feat for more than a decade now, globally. Hence its uniquely bad position in that regard.
    Humor aside, this is a tough reality that the Russians are yet to address.

    Taking easy and false comfort in a NATO vessel having an incident is missing the point.

    Not taking any comfort in NATO vessels being crap designs... a destroyer should be able to operate in the Med without over heating, this super duper US stealth destroyer should be able to sort its shit out if a pipe leaks sea water inside the vessel... there was not plan B... it must have Windows 98...

    Clearly the US and UK need to reevaluate its plans... the Russian Navy does not wait for a problem and then deploy remedies... it takes any rescue systems with it in case they are needed... ie when Russian carrier planes operate they have SAR helos in the air ready to assist... because that is the sensible thing to do... western carriers do the same, but you turn such things around to make it seem like there is something wrong with Russian Naval equipment that they have to do that.

    As shown by Russian naval movements towards Syria where EU countries closed their ports to Russian vessels taking on fuel... the Russians can't rely on the Europeans to be civilised, they are heathens that cannot be trusted... so they take their own tugs and their own refuelling vessels and they go to Syria and kill actual terrorists unlike the west who pretends to fight but actually supports half the terrorist forces there... which is no surprise as their actions generally create terrorist forces.


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    hoom
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  hoom on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:42 am

    The picture is dated November 20th.
    Good point.
    The Mig-29k was lost on 13th so 7 days later, if the arrestors are still borked then they must be waiting on parts? Can K fit in Tartous if they need to crane stuff onboard?

    I guess the question is if they are still there later on or if they move back to K.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Not really. Having permanent tug escort is Kuz's special feat for more than a decade now, globally. Hence its uniquely bad position in that regard.
    Humor aside, this is a tough reality that the Russians are yet to address.

    Taking easy and false comfort in a NATO vessel having an incident is missing the point.

    Not taking any comfort in NATO vessels being crap designs... a destroyer should be able to operate in the Med without over heating, this super duper US stealth destroyer should be able to sort its shit out if a pipe leaks sea water inside the vessel... there was not plan B... it must have Windows 98...

    Clearly the US and UK need to reevaluate its plans...

    The UK sure, they screwed up their Navy. The US though, with over 60 ABs and 20 or so Ticos, well lets just say they fine. For instance Essen just broke its propeller wasting the shaft and all, ergo not many proper vessels in-theater to launch Kalibrs. That's what happens when you operate ridiculously low numbers, be it in carrier(s) or a handful of useful frigates. The later puts the RuN in close similarity to the RN.

    GarryB wrote:the Russians can't rely on the Europeans to be civilised, they are heathens that cannot be trusted...

    Nope. Algeria, Egypt, Cyprus, Syria and right now Greece and Turkey.
    No excuses my friend. Russia has the same if not more friendly ports than in USSR days.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:12 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Not really. Having permanent tug escort is Kuz's special feat for more than a decade now, globally. Hence its uniquely bad position in that regard.
    Humor aside, this is a tough reality that the Russians are yet to address.

    Taking easy and false comfort in a NATO vessel having an incident is missing the point.

    Not taking any comfort in NATO vessels being crap designs... a destroyer should be able to operate in the Med without over heating, this super duper US stealth destroyer should be able to sort its shit out if a pipe leaks sea water inside the vessel... there was not plan B... it must have Windows 98...

    Clearly the US and UK need to reevaluate its plans...

    The UK sure, they screwed up their Navy. The US though, with over 60 ABs and 20 or so Ticos, well lets just say they fine. For instance Essen just broke its propeller wasting the shaft and all, ergo not many proper vessels in-theater to launch Kalibrs. That's what happens when you operate ridiculously low numbers, be it in carrier(s) or a handful of useful frigates. The later puts the RuN in close similarity to the RN.

    GarryB wrote:the Russians can't rely on the Europeans to be civilised, they are heathens that cannot be trusted...

    Nope. Algeria, Egypt, Cyprus, Syria and right now Greece and Turkey.
    No excuses my friend. Russia has the same if not more friendly ports than in USSR days.

    and if there any issue between Russia and Algeria ?

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  kvs on Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:44 pm

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3629306/Royal-Navy-s-advanced-destroyers-break-Gulf-water-WARM-bungling-defence-chiefs-admit.html

    And all the fanboi NATO Russia haters wank themselves silly with images of smoke plumes from the Kuznetsov.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:28 pm

    kvs wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3629306/Royal-Navy-s-advanced-destroyers-break-Gulf-water-WARM-bungling-defence-chiefs-admit.html

    And all the fanboi NATO Russia haters wank themselves silly with images of smoke plumes from the Kuznetsov.  

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    #russiannavy Nov 7: "Admiral Essen" frigate transferred Baltiysk Naval Base >  Yantar Shipyard probably for repairs of steering-related gear



    Works both ways, so don't even start this.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  jhelb on Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:57 pm

    Flight around Admiral Kuznetsov via a GoPro strapped to a Ka-52K attack helicopter


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:58 pm

    Well, the MiGs are there. What are they waiting for?

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:16 pm

    OminousSpudd wrote:Well, the MiGs are there. What are they waiting for?

    Allegedly Migs are atm "grounded", and Su-33s are on Hymaumim airbase not on the carrier as arresting gear is not working yet and they cant land back after they are being launched.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:39 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Well, the MiGs are there. What are they waiting for?

    Allegedly Migs are atm "grounded", and Su-33s are on Hymaumim airbase not on the carrier as arresting gear is not working yet and they cant land back after they are being launched.

    Interesting, the K has four independent arresting wire.

    Is there a common system component that went wrong?


    Design error?
    I presume if one wire lost the airplane can land, they lose the plane only if all four arresting gear lost.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:45 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Well, the MiGs are there. What are they waiting for?

    Allegedly Migs are atm "grounded", and Su-33s are on Hymaumim airbase not on the carrier as arresting gear is not working yet and they cant land back after they are being launched.

    Interesting, the K has four independent arresting wire.

    Is there a common system component that went wrong?


    Design error?
    I presume if one wire lost the airplane can land, they lose the plane only if all four arresting gear lost.

    Not sure, but if whole arresting system is offline than means something went wrong that all arresting lines share. Probably some electric motor or something of a sort which cant be fixed and demands either replacement or spares that do not exist on the ship.

    If it was just snapped wire, they would remove it and land aircraft on remaining wires, that is not something unusual, that happened before even on US carriers.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:46 pm

    Militarov wrote:Allegedly Migs are atm "grounded", and Su-33s are on Hymaumim airbase not on the carrier as arresting gear is not working yet and they cant land back after they are being launched.

    That's a disaster much worse than the whole boiler-gate and tug-gate. Basically the carrier was/is disabled for many days.
    In the middle of a war deployment, great.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:52 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Allegedly Migs are atm "grounded", and Su-33s are on Hymaumim airbase not on the carrier as arresting gear is not working yet and they cant land back after they are being launched.

    That's a disaster much worse than the whole boiler-gate and tug-gate. Basically the carrier was/is disabled for many days.
    In the middle of a war deployment, great.

    Well yea, they made today video of Ka-52K flying around the carrier, probably to provide inflow of fresh videos from the carrier, MiG-29Ks were on the deck fixed.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:55 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Allegedly Migs are atm "grounded", and Su-33s are on Hymaumim airbase not on the carrier as arresting gear is not working yet and they cant land back after they are being launched.

    That's a disaster much worse than the whole boiler-gate and tug-gate. Basically the carrier was/is disabled for many days.
    In the middle of a war deployment, great.

    Well yea, they made today video of Ka-52K flying around the carrier, probably to provide inflow of fresh videos from the carrier, MiG-29Ks were on the deck fixed.

    Well, cable-gate it is then. The whole Kuz saga never ends scratch
    Heads should roll over this.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  kvs on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:01 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:

    Works both ways, so don't even start this.

    Ah shaddup. Your NATO fanbois are notorious for their racist pissing on everything Russian.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:06 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Well, the MiGs are there. What are they waiting for?

    Allegedly Migs are atm "grounded", and Su-33s are on Hymaumim airbase not on the carrier as arresting gear is not working yet and they cant land back after they are being launched.

    Interesting, the K has four independent arresting wire.

    Is there a common system component that went wrong?


    Design error?
    I presume if one wire lost the airplane can land, they lose the plane only if all four arresting gear lost.
    I was wondering the same. It must have been a pretty serious bungle, which is presumably why that poor fella had to ditch his bird earlier. I don't know what sort of accident could lead to all arrestors being put out of action, short of a total crash landing.

    The arrestor lines being out of action would make sense considering the Su-33s are at Hmeimim.
    Clearly they still want to test out the Su-33s in an A2G role, with Gefest and all... I just wonder why the '29s aren't stationed on land now as well, surely they need to be garnering combat experience from those aircraft?

    EDIT: I'd assume the MiG-29Ks are grounded due to the carrier, as opposed to being grounded due to the one that presumably ran out of fuel.


    Last edited by OminousSpudd on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

    kvs
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  kvs on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:08 pm



    the above is realistic, below is a photoshop fake:



    The image is of the 2011 BP Gulf of Mexico rig disaster modified to look like smoke from the Kuznetsov. Note the oil slick.

    A similar one:


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:27 pm

    kvs wrote:

    Well it can't be much worse than a navy's only 60,000 ton carrier sitting ashore of Latakia, in the middle of a war, with no working fixed-wing capability. Can't launch any planes as it won't be able to recover them. Think about it for a second. The context of the Zumwalt failure is having one new ship of a limited 3-ship class sorting out its kinks in basically friendly waters, near home. When possessing over 60 equivalent vessels (see below) in active duty. No comparison my friend.



    Also Admiral Essen just got banged and out-of-action for now, by its captain.  No

    The newest Russian frigate was damaged because of the mistakes of the commander

    The patrol ship project 11 356 “Admiral Essen” when reversing damaged one of its propellers. As writes “the Look” from-for strong blow was deposed and the line of the propeller shaft to be centred and one of the screws has to be replaced. To carry out repairs to groups of the screw and the shaft line, the frigate put to repair in dock JSC “Baltic shipyard “Yantar”. “Admiral Essen” was transferred to Russian Navy on 7 June 2016.

    http://all.true-news.info/the-newest-russian-frigate-was-damaged-because-of-the-mistakes-of-the-commander/

    Russian Navy needs to get its act together. It's been a tough month for them.


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:32 pm



    No need to photoshop alot tho, just minor alternations Very Happy

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:09 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:

    Also Admiral Essen just got banged and out-of-action for now, by its captain.  No

    The newest Russian frigate was damaged because of the mistakes of the commander

    The patrol ship project 11 356 “Admiral Essen” when reversing damaged one of its propellers. As writes “the Look” from-for strong blow was deposed and the line of the propeller shaft to be centred and one of the screws has to be replaced. To carry out repairs to groups of the screw and the shaft line, the frigate put to repair in dock JSC “Baltic shipyard “Yantar”. “Admiral Essen” was transferred to Russian Navy on 7 June 2016.

    http://all.true-news.info/the-newest-russian-frigate-was-damaged-because-of-the-mistakes-of-the-commander/

    Russian Navy needs to get its act together. It's been a tough month for them.
    That's his career down the tubes.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:58 am

    The later puts the RuN in close similarity to the RN.

    Please... the RN is going down in funding... it always has... any time they get things right and do the job some bean counters think they must be over funded and cut their funding. The Russian Navy in comparison have never been considered the primary arm of the Russian Military, but at least plans are in place to update and improve...

    Nope. Algeria, Egypt, Cyprus, Syria and right now Greece and Turkey.

    I said Europeans can't be trusted and you list African countries plus Greece and Cyprus and Turkey as countries they can... really?

    No excuses my friend. Russia has the same if not more friendly ports than in USSR days.

    How many of those countries have tugs that can tow the K? How many of those are available when needed?

    Well, the MiGs are there. What are they waiting for?

    If the arrester gear story is true, perhaps they are waiting to find out what the problem was and get it fixed.

    Allegedly Migs are atm "grounded", and Su-33s are on Hymaumim airbase not on the carrier as arresting gear is not working yet and they cant land back after they are being launched.

    Well then technically they are no more grounded than the Su-33s in the sense that they can take off but not land back on the carrier...

    Interesting, the K has four independent arresting wire.

    Is there a common system component that went wrong?

    You can't operate with one... the idea is that there are four lines that you can catch your hook on as you come in.

    It doesn't matter which you hook, but you do need a good hook on one line for it to stop your aircraft.

    All four lines are connected to geared cables that rapidly slow down the very fast rather heavy aircraft.

    I presume if one wire lost the airplane can land, they lose the plane only if all four arresting gear los

    Losing four lines is like a four engined aircraft losing all four engines... very very unlikely to happen naturally.

    A plane can try to land and hook no lines... in which case it powers up and flys around and tries again.

    If it was just snapped wire, they would remove it and land aircraft on remaining wires, that is not something unusual, that happened before even on US carriers.

    A snapped wire could be removed and the remaining three wires used to land the aircraft.

    It has to be something rather more than this.

    I suspect the gear mechanism that absorbs the energy of the aircraft as it lands.

    That's a disaster much worse than the whole boiler-gate and tug-gate. Basically the carrier was/is disabled for many days.
    In the middle of a war deployment, great.

    Yes, the sky is falling... now they have their super carrier in place and they are unable to launch devastating ground strikes with it to defeat ISIS... or wait a minute... they were never going to be able to do that with two MiGs anyway...

    Heads should roll over this.

    Yours first.

    Why no demands for heads to roll when UK ships overheat or US super cruisers become target barges... double standard for someone who claims to be unbiased...

    Well it can't be much worse than a navy's only 60,000 ton carrier sitting ashore of Latakia, in the middle of a war, with no working fixed-wing capability. Can't launch any planes as it won't be able to recover them. Think about it for a second. The context of the Zumwalt failure is having one new ship of a limited 3-ship class sorting out its kinks in basically friendly waters, near home. When possessing over 60 equivalent vessels (see below) in active duty. No comparison my friend.

    No comparison at all... the K is an old design that has been neglected for much of its life with quite a few design issues that really need to be addressed. It was never going to have a significant influence on the conflict in Syria... it is there for operational tests and training, so this problem is actually good experience for them. The US uber cruiser becoming immobile due to a leak of sea water... something the damn thing is supposed to operate on for its entire operational life is rather more disturbing... this is the future of the US Navy... it is the pinnacle of US technology and navy prowess... and it is junk.


    Russian Navy needs to get its act together. It's been a tough month for them.

    Of course it is the Russian Navys fault one captain made a mistake and a part of the arrester gear on the K failed... obviously their training is at fault an Putin should be held responsible and fired... dick head.


    That's his career down the tubes.

    When US subs surface into Japanese fishing boats and kill the fishermen their captains get no punishment. When AEGIS class cruiser captain enter the territorial waters of foreign powers and shoot down civilian airliners they get medals... surely for damaging a propeller he should get a medal too.


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:03 am

    The arrestor lines being out of action would make sense considering the Su-33s are at Hmeimim.
    Clearly they still want to test out the Su-33s in an A2G role, with Gefest and all... I just wonder why the '29s aren't stationed on land now as well, surely they need to be garnering combat experience from those aircraft?

    The weapons the Su-33s are testing are dumb bombs and likely AAMs... both of which will be present on land bases in Syria.

    The MiG-29s were probably going to be testing some of the new weapons like glide bombs and other new weapons which are probably not present at the land bases.

    the idea is likely to test the MiGs from the carriers because they have not had much time actually flying from carriers... the Su-33s have been the standard carrier based aircraft for the K since it started operations...


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  franco on Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:48 pm

    The only advantage to operating off the aircraft carrier is the practice.
    The disadvantage is the reduced lift off ability.
    So much more fuel and ordnance can be carried operating off the airfield.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:No comparison at all... the K is an old design that has been neglected for much of its life with quite a few design issues that really need to be addressed. It was never going to have a significant influence on the conflict in Syria... it is there for operational tests and training, so this problem is actually good experience for them. The US uber cruiser becoming immobile due to a leak of sea water... something the damn thing is supposed to operate on for its entire operational life is rather more disturbing... this is the future of the US Navy... it is the pinnacle of US technology and navy prowess... and it is junk.

    The Zumwalt was basically cancelled and those three entering service have reduced capabilities from the get go. The future of the USN will be AB for the next couple of decades, there's 11 Flight IIs and 3 Flight IIIs on the pipeline right now. And they plan for up to 24 Flight IIIs well into the mids 20s. Let those numbers sink in for a moment.

    Zumwalt will fit a niche.

    GarryB wrote:Of course it is the Russian Navys fault one captain made a mistake and a part of the arrester gear on the K failed... obviously their training is at fault an Putin should be held responsible and fired... dick head.

    lol1

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:19 pm

    I don't get why everyone make huge noise about the issues around the K.

    Up to 2008-2009 that carrier hasn't got any role in the RU MOD, that was considered as a reserve ship.

    They started to use it just few years ago, and this is the first time when the RU MOD actually considering any serious role for it.

    The issues with gears , engines and so on part of the learning curve, every system and organisation going through this.

    They lost an aircraft, that increased the deployment cost by 20% maybe? Sounds not as a good news, but it is an expected loss .

    Main problem is everyone comparing the ship to a "ideal" state, but that never exist anywhere.

    you try the equipment, that works or not, and based on your experience you modify it/ fix it.


    Example the K boilers can be fixed and it can be robust and fail safe if you replace the piping of the boilers.

    As a bonus you can install sensors and new PLCs to get rid of the smoke as well.

    That cost half year and means dismantling of half of the superstructure of the ship.

    The arresting gear never been used in rage, so now it is the first time when they can see the problems with it.

    It will be fixed, there will be a full FMEA ,and the probability of breakdown will be smaller in the future.


    The ideal "first time perfect" exist only in the ideal world.


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