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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

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    miketheterrible
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:13 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    kvs wrote:You are just guessing.  You have no clue about the engineering specifics of these parts.

    I have a clue about Engineering then and now. Hence my comment.
    The specifics of these parts are irrelevant to my point. And judging by the result neither did the RuN have any clues about these ''specifics''.

    No you don't. That is for sure. And not on this specific topic either since we all know Greece doesn't operate a carrier or even a proper navy for that matter.

    So please, spare us. You haven't convinced anyone.
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:49 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    kvs wrote:You are just guessing.  You have no clue about the engineering specifics of these parts.

    I have a clue about Engineering then and now. Hence my comment.
    The specifics of these parts are irrelevant to my point. And judging by the result neither did the RuN have any clues about these ''specifics''.

    No you don't.  That is for sure.  And not on this specific topic either since we all know Greece doesn't operate a carrier or even a proper navy for that matter.

    So please, spare us.  You haven't convinced anyone.

    I am not trying to convince anybody about the Engineering part, it is a fact. Greece not operating a carrier is hardly relevant to the discussion and my points. If the cables were somehow flawed, Russia could have used certain tools and technologies at their disposal, so that a second, identical accident would not have occurred and definitely not so chronologically close to one another.


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:17 am

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:If somehow it is found the cables are "reconditioned" from Soviet stocks, heads will roll.

    I somehow highly doubt they made new arresting cables like... ever.

    ... the worst part is that I'm not even doubting this.

    Well see, i look at it like this. They probably made certain amount of spare wires at the time when carrier was made, probobably more than one set was on the carrier itself... so... they didnt launch many aircraft anyways so wear and tear was like minimal...

    Chances are wires that are used atm are sozdane v SSSR.

    Chances are you're right. Still very amazing on its own respect.
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    Lone Russian Aircraft Carrier is Being Misused in Syria

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:37 pm




    And Russian Jets Keep on Crashing.


    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/russian-jets-keep-crashing-%e2%80%94-and-it-may-be-an-aircraft-carrier%e2%80%99s-fault/ar-AAlbrgh?li=AAggFp5&ocid=SKY2DHP
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:12 pm

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:


    And Russian Jets Keep on Crashing.


    http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/russian-jets-keep-crashing-%e2%80%94-and-it-may-be-an-aircraft-carrier%e2%80%99s-fault/ar-AAlbrgh?li=AAggFp5&ocid=SKY2DHP

    It was the fault of the cable YET again. The pilots nor the plane are at fault that ship is the problem it needs to cut it's deployment shot and head back for modernization.
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:14 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:It was the fault of the cable YET again. The pilots nor the plane are at fault that ship is the problem it needs to cut it's deployment shot and head back for modernization.

    What's  interesting is that right now you have:

    1. FS Charles de Gaulle (R91) sailing between Cyprus and Israel, conducting aerial exercises till the 15th Dec. Hollande will visit it as well.
    2. USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69) sailing in the region just west off Cyprus, conducting aerial exercises till the 13th Dec.

    The Americans and French will also conduct joint drills and bring along a cruiser and destroyers with them.

    So you have the two global powers when it comes to carrier ops right now, witnessing the whole Kuz saga up close as it unfolds. No
    At least next time they have to ditch a 4th generation fast-jet into the Med, they could consider landing it on one of their partner's nearby CVs.
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  OminousSpudd on Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:24 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:It was the fault of the cable YET again. The pilots nor the plane are at fault that ship is the problem it needs to cut it's deployment shot and head back for modernization.

    What's  interesting is that right now you have:

    1. FS Charles de Gaulle (R91) sailing between Cyprus and Israel, conducting aerial exercises till the 15th Dec. Hollande will visit it as well.
    2. USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69) sailing in the region just west off Cyprus, conducting aerial exercises till the 13th Dec.

    The Americans and French will also conduct joint drills and bring along a cruiser and destroyers with them.

    So you have the two global powers when it comes to carrier ops right now, witnessing the whole Kuz saga up close as it unfolds. No
    At least next time they have to ditch a 4th generation fast-jet into the Med, they could consider landing it on one of their partner's nearby CVs.
    Landing on a NATO carrier... Kilo, you live in an alternate universe.
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:36 pm

    OminousSpudd wrote:Landing on a NATO carrier... Kilo, you live in an alternate universe.

    It's a joke chill tongue
    Putin likes the word partners.
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    miketheterrible
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:49 pm

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:


    And Russian Jets Keep on Crashing.


    http://msn.com/en-ca/news/world/russian-jets-keep-crashing-%e2%80%94-and-it-may-be-an-aircraft-carrier%e2%80%99s-fault/ar-AAlbrgh?li=AAggFp5&ocid=SKY2DHP

    Welcome to the discussion child. Hopefully you have the ability to read previous posts, no?

    That's OK, we hit nitwits here who have done nothing but blather on about th its they don't know and assume shit. While posting a ridiculous amount of times like some NEET loser.
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:32 pm

    Pace of launches is what snapped the cable. So real war was still needed. When USN started using this AC thing in war for real back in the 40's I doubt they got everything right on the fist go. Nobody does.
    It could also be the wrong weight entered to the arrestor system- such mistakes occurred there before. Or the arrestor, not the wire, itself malfunctioned. I'm sure the Russians analyzed decades worth of US, French, British & Japanese carrier ops from open sources as well as info. obtained from intell. OTH, some sailor(s) may have gotten tired being there & decided to sabotage the ship to go home sooner!
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:11 pm

    At least next time they have to ditch a 4th generation fast-jet into the Med, they could consider landing it on one of their partner's nearby CVs.

    I doubt a Russian navy pilot would hand their aircraft over to the enemy like that.

    I am sure there is a policy of not supplying high tech equipment to the side that beheads children and burns women alive.

    The whole point of this operation is testing, so finding this stuff out now is what it was all supposed to be about.

    Children bleating about accidents shouldn't happen should look up the definition of accidents.

    OTH, some sailor(s) may have gotten tired being there & decided to sabotage the ship to go home sooner!

    You mean like the gay sailor on the Iowa class battleship that changed the order of the propellant charges in the gun his ex lover worked in so that it exploded and killed him when they fired... possible.

    AFAIK the arresting system is not set up for different weights... only steam cat launches are.

    There are only max landing weight limits set for the aircraft.


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:I am sure there is a policy of not supplying high tech equipment to the side that beheads children and burns women alive.

    I thought Russia recently restarted business and were talking about deals with Turkey (S-400).

    Su-33 even with Gefest hardly qualifies as more cutting edge than S-400.
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:27 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I am sure there is a policy of not supplying high tech equipment to the side that beheads children and burns women alive.

    I thought Russia recently restarted business and were talking about deals with Turkey (S-400).

    Su-33 even with Gefest hardly qualifies as more cutting edge than S-400.

    SU-33 hardly qualifies as cutting edge by any means.
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:29 pm

    Militarov wrote:SU-33 hardly qualifies as cutting edge by any means.

    Start running now lol1
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:31 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:SU-33 hardly qualifies as cutting edge by any means.

    Start running now lol1

    Why, not like i said something that is not true. Come on, everyone here knows that Su-33s are long past their youth.
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:11 pm

    Maybe not so obivous to everyone , but the most expensive component of a carrier is the trained crew , shipyard workers and suppliers.


    What happens now is the RUN lear the methods how to operate,maintain, design, train and usa the carrier.


    It is an expensive training, and they are lucky because no pilot was lost.

    At the moment they haven't got experienced crew/pilots, and they lerning how to train them now.


    Few weeks ago there was a lot of noise about the fact there is more aircraft than trained pilot.


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:02 am

    GarryB wrote:
    At least next time they have to ditch a 4th generation fast-jet into the Med, they could consider landing it on one of their partner's nearby CVs.

    I doubt a Russian navy pilot would hand their aircraft over to the enemy like that. ..
    OTH, some sailor(s) may have gotten tired being there & decided to sabotage the ship to go home sooner!

    You mean like the gay sailor on the Iowa class battleship that changed the order of the propellant charges in the gun his ex lover worked in so that it exploded and killed him when they fired... possible.

    AFAIK the arresting system is not set up for different weights... only steam cat launches are.

    There are only max landing weight limits set for the aircraft.

    Neither Su-33 nor MiG-29K have the front landing gear designed &/ strong enough for CATs, so how would they get off those carriers even if they were cleared to recover on them? The J-15 is another matter- it now has a launch bar as Chinese r getting ready for CATOBAR ops on their future CVs. But even then they r a long away off, if ever, to crossdecking with the USN CVNs!
    «Под палубой стоят огромные барабаны – метров шесть диаметром. При зацепе они по специальной программе стравливают с себя трос – затормаживают в зависимости от посадочного веса машины. Этот вес может сильно отличаться в зависимости от объема топлива на борту. Всякий раз при посадке пилот сообщает на борт данные об остатке топлива. Тогда в зависимости от фактического веса машины ставятся «уставки» на тормозные барабаны, чтобы успеть остановить именно данный самолет на дистанции в 90 метров. Перед каждой посадкой конкретный матросик бегает и ставит «уставки». Если поставит неправильно, то барабан также будет тормозить неправильно, что может стать одной из причин обрыва троса, – пояснил собеседник. – И такие случаи бывали».http://www.vz.ru/politics/2016/12/5/666349.print.html
    Transl.: "Below deck are huge drums - six meters in diameter. When they trap, a special program with vented cable cause breaking action, depending on the landing weight of the plane. This weight can vary greatly depending on the amount of fuel on board. Before each landing, pilot reports data on remaining fuel. Then the "settings" depending on the actual weight of the plane are put on the brake drums in time to stop the aircraft at a distance of 90 meters. Before each specific landing sailor puts the "settings". If it's wrong, the drum will also slow down wrong, & it can be one of the causes of cable breakage, - he explained. - And such cases happened."
    I was not joking about possible sabotage- & it happened before in the Soviet Navy as well!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  kvs on Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:08 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Pace of launches is what snapped the cable. So real war was still needed. When USN started using this AC thing in war for real back in the 40's I doubt they got everything right on the fist go. Nobody does.
    It could also be the wrong weight entered to the arrestor system- such mistakes occurred there before. Or the arrestor, not the wire, itself  malfunctioned. I'm sure the Russians analyzed decades worth of US, French, British & Japanese carrier ops from open sources as well as info. obtained from intell. OTH, some sailor(s) may have gotten tired being there & decided to sabotage the ship to go home sooner!

    That is just fluffy unicorns fantasy. The Russian parts are not the US parts. They have their own physical characteristics
    so they have their own design learning curves.

    Exhibit A:

    China's knockoff of Su fighters the J-15. Even though they got their hands on the engines, they could not copy them after 15 years of
    trying.
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:16 am

    I'm talking about ops in general, not parts; pl. see my prev. post. BTW, where is Canuckistan? Pl. clarify it on ur profile. Thx!
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:28 am

    kvs wrote:China's knockoff of Su fighters the J-15.   Even though they got their hands on the engines, they could not copy them after 15 years of
    trying.  

    Correct. But your sentence is missing one key word: yet. It will happen by the 2020s. High performance and efficient gas turbines are probably the most difficult aircraft assembly the Chinese can ever embark on reverse engineering. Hence it takes time, high quality R&D and money, all of which China has in abundance.
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:25 am

    Not likely. Hence why they are trying to convince the Russians for sale of 6 engines to each Su-35 rather than traditional 4.
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:37 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Not likely. Hence why they are trying to convince the Russians for sale of 6 engines to each Su-35 rather than traditional 4.

    Not really selling anything that is the current generation to china is a HUGE mistake. They only reverse engineer it and sell it at a cheaper price. One would think after the SU-27 deal they would have learned about this.

    China is very capable of applying stolen tech just ask the United States, you can easily spot stolen US tech on their shit now.

    Honestly, I would have refused to sell them any SU-35's the defense agency isn't stupid they know the second they hand it over the tech will get stolen. Russia must be rather desperate for cash because they used to refuse china access to the new good toys because of this very reason now all of a sudden they are cool with it?.

    Now if they sell China Armata's/S-400's/T-50's that will be the single biggest blunder of they have ever made.
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  hoom on Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:26 am

    how would they get off those carriers even if they were cleared to recover on them?
    That was apparently recently covered in Military Acceptance episode on K: (can't find the direct quote for some reason) Russian pilot visiting a CV back in 04 or something had actually suggested testing it to US crew, Su-33 weight is well within US arrestor limit & he believed could get enough speed despite no ski-jump by starting the takeoff run from the back of the carrier.

    Speaking of which


    Edit: not just any pilot but the great Victor Pugachev (~20mins in)


    Last edited by hoom on Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:43 am

    hoom wrote:
    how would they get off those carriers even if they were cleared to recover on them?
    That was apparently recently covered in Military Acceptance episode on K: (can't find the direct quote for some reason) Russian pilot visiting a CV back in 04 or something had actually suggested testing it to US crew, Su-33 weight is well within US arrestor limit & he believed could get enough speed despite no ski-jump by starting the takeoff run from the back of the carrier.

    Speaking of which

    This got me thinking. Wouldn't thrust vectoring actually help an Su-33 taking off with more load?
    Maybe this (below) wasn't such a bad idea after all:



    Last edited by KiloGolf on Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:06 am

    The 2 Big Reasons Why Russia's Only Aircraft Carrier is Having So Many Problems

    Dave Majumdar
    December 6, 2016



    The Russian Navy has lost two carrier-based fighters onboard its sole remaining carrier Admiral Kuznetsov in the span of only a few weeks. On both occasions, technical problems with Kuznetsov’s arresting gear played a central role in the accidents—which have cost the Kremlin a Mikoyan MiG-29KUBR Fulcrum-D and a Sukhoi Su-33 Flanker-D. While Kuznetsov’s hardware is old, the bigger issue is Russia’s relative lack of experience in naval aviation and insufficient proficiency with launching and recovering combat aircraft onboard a carrier at sea.

    In the case of the first crash on Nov.14—where a MiG-29KUBR ran out of fuel and crashed into the Mediterranean—the aircraft was orbiting while deck crews attempted to fix a broken arresting cable that had become entangled with one or the three remaining wires. The cable had snapped when another MiG-29KR had landed safely onboard Kuznetsov—however, that aircraft had caught the fourth and last cable on deck. Meanwhile, the second crash on Dec. 5—this time involving a Su-33 Flanker—was also due to a snapped arresting gear cable.

    Naval aviation is an inherently dangerous business, but many of Russia’s naval aviation mishaps are due to a lack of experience and proficiency in carrier-based operations. While some of the Russian Navy’s problems can be attributed to the elderly Kuznetsov’s many inherent flaws, the Russians have not developed the proper procedures or practices to operate carrier-borne aircraft safely at sea.

    Kuznetsov—commissioned on Dec. 25, 1990—is an older ship, but the vessel’s age is not the real issue. There are a good number of U.S. Navy carriers that are far older than Kuznetsov that operate perfectly well. Nimitz, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Carl Vinson, Theodore Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln—are all older than the Russian ship. Moreover, USS Enterprise (CVN-65)—which was retired on Dec. 1, 2012, after more than 50 years in service—was just as ready to launch and recover aircraft on the day she was pulled out of service as she was the day she was first deployed in 1962.

    The reason the U.S. Navy can operate a carrier for more than half a century is because the service maintains the material condition of its ships and has superbly trained crews. The Russians—especially over the past 25 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union—have not always properly maintained Kuznetsov. Nor has Kuznetsov’s crew been given enough of a chance to gain the requisite proficiency to safely conduct carrier operations at sea.

    Cables break—it happens even onboard the U.S. Navy’s fleet of supercarriers. Indeed, one particular incident I recall was when an old acquaintance of mine was nearly killed when a cable snapped onboard USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63) in 2005. His Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornet fell into the water and the ship nearly ran him and his weapons systems officer over. Meanwhile, there was chaos onboard Kitty Hawk as the ends of the cable thrashed across the flight deck—damaging aircraft and injuring crew members. Accidents happen—but a broken cable leading to a mishap is exceedingly rare onboard U.S. Navy carriers. Two accidents in less than three weeks is indicative of serious problems onboard.

    “Cables separate/break at some interval—and that's big news usually leading to injury, death or mishap. The cable system breaking does happen regularly and they usually just remove it and work with less wires—two or three now with the new design,” one senior naval aviator told me. “The bottom line is that it's very rare, sometimes preventable (settings, maintenance, etc.) and it’s big news when it happens.”


    Meanwhile, the earlier loss of the MiG-29KUBR is indicative of poor decision making on the part of the Russian commander—who should probably have diverted the jet to a shore base in Syria. U.S. Navy carriers—when operating close to shore—will designate divert airfields in case there is a serious emergency where the ship cannot recover its aircraft. Indeed, the carrier usually launches recovery tankers—aerial-refueling-configured Super Hornets—to ensure that jets have enough fuel to operate safely. While Kuznetsov does not have the ability to launch a tanker—or even buddy-refueller configured fighters—the Russians should have designated a divert field for emergencies.

    “When the carrier and air wing team first put to sea they are considered to be in divert ops until they pass their Combat Operations Efficiency (COE) evaluation, which is also called ‘blue water certification.’  We also use divert ops if there is an engineering casualty on the carrier, for example if we’re only using one reactor… whether by necessity or by choice,” another senior U.S. naval aviator told me. “Typically, a ship-based limitation that could put the recovery of fixed-wing aircraft at risk leads to a divert ops situation, so we’d need to be in relatively close proximity to land—say, 200 nautical miles or so.”

    As a force designed to project American power across the globe, the U.S. Navy has designed its procedures to enable safe carrier operations even in the middle of the ocean—far from any land bases.  “Blue water ops enable the carrier and air wing to conduct flight operations anywhere, anytime,” the second naval aviator said. “We utilize tankers to provide the required gas — ‘front side’ gas to give us more to train with, with ‘back side’ gas available as required when an aircraft’s fuel state gets low.”

    Ultimately, it is not the age of its ships or the capabilities of its hardware that makes the U.S. Navy the globe-spanning titan that it is. It is the quality of its training and the soundness of its procedures that make the service what it is. Russia has long way to go before it ever comes close to matching American naval aviation prowess.

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-2-big-reasons-why-russias-only-aircraft-carrier-having-18643

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