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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

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    A1RMAN
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  A1RMAN on Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:33 pm

    hoom wrote:
    The snag cables were damaged in the previous 2 landings. The pilot was told to circle while they got fixed... took too long and he had to eject when he ran out of fuel.
    If thats what happened it is actually pretty embarrassing.
    Kinda almost prefer a mechanical issue with the plane silent

    No. All this is experience. Better now without human casualties, then epic fail during hard military operation in the future.

    par far
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  par far on Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:58 pm

    A1RMAN wrote:
    hoom wrote:
    The snag cables were damaged in the previous 2 landings. The pilot was told to circle while they got fixed... took too long and he had to eject when he ran out of fuel.
    If thats what happened it is actually pretty embarrassing.
    Kinda almost prefer a mechanical issue with the plane silent

    No. All this is experience. Better now without human casualties, then epic fail during hard military operation in the future.


    This. It is better to get the experience now, this is real life war and things will go wrong. Now they can find solutions to it.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:27 pm

    hoom wrote:
    The snag cables were damaged in the previous 2 landings. The pilot was told to circle while they got fixed... took too long and he had to eject when he ran out of fuel.
    If thats what happened it is actually pretty embarrassing.
    Kinda almost prefer a mechanical issue with the plane silent

    If it's the truth, it's much much worse than initially thought.
    It's a waste of money (among other things) and people should loose their jobs over such a momentous clvsterfvck.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:38 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    franco wrote:Here is a more detailed version. The snag cables were damaged in the previous 2 landings. The pilot was told to circle while they got fixed... took too long and he had to eject when he ran out of fuel.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2273357.html

    That's terrible. Planes can't carry enough fuel/payload on this carrier and it really shows with incidents like that.

    Oh shut up already.  You don't give a crap.  Shed your tears for your next economic meltdown.

    Because you didn't see it, you don't even know what kind of armament the things can carry.  Since you know, you nor I seen the MiG-29KR or alike with all its armament.

    Yeah well, there's a valid point there. Sorry for being too cynic and realist for your taste.

    The same realist who believes you should fight $15k technicals whith $80k missiles... Wink

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:13 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:The same realist who believes you should fight $15k technicals whith $80k missiles... Wink

    The same realist that doesn't skew and alter people's points. Or make stuff up like you just did  study
    What I said before is still valid about the Javs, they are a perfect fit for a niche market. That is for the select few that can operate them.

    Going back on-topic. Basically the USNI theory of loosing both engines, reported by Gazeta.ru.

    Why did a Russian MiG-29K crash into the Mediterranean?
    November 23, 2016 MIKHAIL KHODORENOK, GAZETA.RU

    On Nov. 13, the day of the accident, three MiG-29KRs took off from the aircraft carrier. After completing their flight missions the planes returned to the ship. The landings were to be conducted at an interval of three-four minutes.

    The first fighter landed without any complications. The second MiG-29KR caught the second arresting cable, tore it and in the end caught the fourth, reserve cable. The torn second cable got tangled up with the third cable and incapacitated it for a plane's landing.

    For some time it was basically impossible for the planes to land on the aircraft carrier. At that time the third MiG-29KR was approaching. Since the aircraft carrier's team needed some time to fix the arresting cables, the flight supervisor told the pilot of the third plane to land after circling the ship a second time.

    While the plane was waiting to land both of its engines broke down. According to a preliminary theory, fuel had stopped entering the engines. In such cases, a jet plane plummets like a rock and the pilot can do only one thing: eject.

    http://rbth.com/defence/2016/11/23/why-did-a-russian-mig-29k-crash-into-the-mediterranean_650231

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:57 am

    Militarov wrote:Yes, thermal barriers are also very important part of whole thing tho i consider them part of whole metalurgical complex.

    Yeah, stainless steel was for quite a while big time material for engines, even turbine blades of "later" stages. GE engine i mentioned above had some type of stainless steel turbine blades (first 7 were titanium, others steel).  MiG-25 engines had stainless steel components actually it was almost whole made from it with, however most heat intensive parts were "silverised" to increase durability.

    Makes sense for the Foxbat given it was 60s tech. But anything developed in the 80s and later makes little sense to make use of steel rotors and so on. My Metallurgy Professor who was a Co, Ni, Mo and Nb alloy expert praised the Soviet metallurgists as leading the world in the 80s, but they were being let down by poor manufacturing practices and inability to basically scale up the good stuff, esp when it came to gas turbines for aerospace (commercial aircraft).

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:22 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Yes, thermal barriers are also very important part of whole thing tho i consider them part of whole metalurgical complex.

    Yeah, stainless steel was for quite a while big time material for engines, even turbine blades of "later" stages. GE engine i mentioned above had some type of stainless steel turbine blades (first 7 were titanium, others steel).  MiG-25 engines had stainless steel components actually it was almost whole made from it with, however most heat intensive parts were "silverised" to increase durability.

    Makes sense for the Foxbat given it was 60s tech. But anything developed in the 80s and later makes little sense to make use of steel rotors and so on. My Metallurgy Professor who was a Co, Ni, Mo and Nb alloy expert praised the Soviet metallurgists as leading the world in the 80s, but they were being let down by poor manufacturing practices and inability to basically scale up the good stuff, esp when it came to gas turbines for aerospace (commercial aircraft).

    They had some good metalurgical practices, but very few ever fruited into production due to being expencive. MiG-25 engine was constructed from steel due state wish to reduce cost of production per aircraft at the time. They however used some great solutions for their submarines, titanium welding, welding in vacoom, in various gasses, titanium forging etc.

    And ye, even tho they had some exceptional solutions "in the lab", industry had habit to underperform and fail to deliver.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:02 am

    Meanwhile in other embarrassing news... http://www.defensenews.com/articles/zumwalt-breaks-down-gets-tow-in-panama-canal sunny

    On topic: Here's some older footage wandering around inside K

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Ned86 on Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:57 am

    In the meantime, those who were creating fun in the media, about smoky Kuznetsov and "towing Kuznetsov", had to tow its newest Destroyer after he broke down shortly after leaving harbor and going to the sea for a exercises.

    HMS Duncan has been towed back to the base on november 23, shortly after leaving its base on november 21 to participate in the military exercises together with four other NATO warships.

    HMS Duncan, Daring class destroyer, is newest destroyer in Royal navy and it has been commissioned 2013.

    more on link
    https://defence.ru/article/britanskii-esminec-sledivshii-za-kuznecovim-vernuli-v-port-na-buksirovali/

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    and don't forget about this

    Post  Arctic_Fox on Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:51 am

    Ned86 wrote:In the meantime, those who were creating fun in the media, about smoky Kuznetsov and "towing Kuznetsov", had to tow its newest Destroyer after he broke down shortly after leaving harbor and going to the sea for a exercises.

    HMS Duncan has been towed back to the base on november 23, shortly after leaving its base on november 21 to participate in the military exercises together with four other NATO warships.

    HMS Duncan,  Daring class destroyer, is newest destroyer in Royal navy and it has been commissioned 2013.

    more on link
    https://defence.ru/article/britanskii-esminec-sledivshii-za-kuznecovim-vernuli-v-port-na-buksirovali/

    and don't forget about this:
    Not again! US Navy ‘stealth’ destroyer towed into port after another breakdown
    https://www.rt.com/usa/367866-uss-zumwalt-stealth-break-down/

    Read the comment section, is just priceless.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:28 am

    Going back on-topic. Basically the USNI theory of loosing both engines, reported by Gazeta.ru.

    Engines don't break down when they are not fed fuel... they just stop running.

    They however used some great solutions for their submarines, titanium welding, welding in vacoom, in various gasses, titanium forging etc.

    They made decisions based on requirements... for instance the mesh around the MiG-25s used to help cool it were made of Silver... which was not cheap but was not as expensive as gold which would have been slightly more efficient but also rather more expensive. They made a choice... just like the decision to go with steel rather than titanium where aluminium was simply not an option due to heat requirements.

    Both steel and Titanium could do the job... the latter was lighter but also more expensive and they wanted a lot of them so they went for the steel option.


    Last edited by GarryB on Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:52 pm

    Ned86 wrote:In the meantime, those who were creating fun in the media, about smoky Kuznetsov and "towing Kuznetsov", had to tow its newest Destroyer after he broke down shortly after leaving harbor and going to the sea for a exercises.

    HMS Duncan has been towed back to the base on november 23, shortly after leaving its base on november 21 to participate in the military exercises together with four other NATO warships.

    HMS Duncan,  Daring class destroyer, is newest destroyer in Royal navy and it has been commissioned 2013.

    more on link
    https://defence.ru/article/britanskii-esminec-sledivshii-za-kuznecovim-vernuli-v-port-na-buksirovali/

    No comparison, but nice try at propaganda.
    A better source follows.

    HMS Duncan Towed Back To Port

    "HMS Duncan experienced technical issues and will resume operations once a full assessment has taken place."
    It's understood tug assistance was used during berthing as a ship-handling precaution.

    http://forces.tv/92165949#.WDbSNIQBNZM.twitter

    During berthing is the important part.

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    HMS Duncan towed into Plymouth yesterday. Burst salt water pipe cause, NOT Gas Turbines failure that’s been root of most Type 45 problems

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Ned86 on Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:12 pm



    Anyway if we saw picture like this, showing any russian warship surrounded by three tugboats, there would be all bunch of propaganda news about how everything from russia is rubbish and unreliable.
    What actually happen doesn't matter. Technics will always break down at some pint.....
    The Things is, that western medias create such a cheap propaganda news even when russian tugboat is sailing normally together with battle group, which is nevertheless common practice in all navies.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:15 pm

    Ned86 wrote:russian tugboat is sailing normally together with battle group, which is nevertheless common practice in all navies.

    No it's not. Had you read and news and appreciated the image (near the port) you'd realize the Kuz vs. Duncan incidents have nothing in common. With the former being more embarrassing and troubling (forced to sail with a tug alongside, from Murmansk to Latakia).

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Going back on-topic. Basically the USNI theory of loosing both engines, reported by Gazeta.ru.

    Engines don't break down when they are not fed fuel... they just stop running.

    They however used some great solutions for their submarines, titanium welding, welding in vacoom, in various gasses, titanium forging etc.

    They made decisions based on requirements... for instance the mesh around the MiG-25s used to help cool it were made of Silver... which was not cheap but was not as expensive as gold which would have been slightly more efficient but also rather more expensive. They made a choice... just like the decision to go with steel rather than titanium where aluminium was simply not an option due to heat requirements.

    Both steel and Titanium could do the job... the former was lighter but also more expensive and they wanted a lot of them so they went for the steel option.


    It was silverised steel actually, so it was cheaper than well...cheaper solution.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Singular_Transform on Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:58 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Ned86 wrote:russian tugboat is sailing normally together with battle group, which is nevertheless common practice in all navies.

    No it's not. Had you read and news and appreciated the image (near the port) you'd realize the Kuz vs. Duncan incidents have nothing in common. With the former being more embarrassing and troubling (forced to sail with a tug alongside, from Murmansk to Latakia).


    Duncan hasn't got to sail with tug because it is always close to a NATO port with tugs.

    If Duncan broken there is a port/friendly tug in close proximity, if K then it won't get help soon.

    The Zumwalt is the same.

    Broken twice, it was lucky for the US navy to has a friendly port close.

    Maybe they had metallurgical problems : )


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:04 pm

    Am i the only one noticing those are not ocean going tugs... but port tugs?

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Ned86 on Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:55 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Ned86 wrote:russian tugboat is sailing normally together with battle group, which is nevertheless common practice in all navies.

    No it's not. Had you read and news and appreciated the image (near the port) you'd realize the Kuz vs. Duncan incidents have nothing in common. With the former being more embarrassing and troubling (forced to sail with a tug alongside, from Murmansk to Latakia).
    it is not forced to sail with tugboat, it is standard procedure for long time deployment.
    Much more embarrassing is for Duncan to broke down on 2 day, although it was in "shallow" waters close to its home port.
    Kuznetsov needs to travel half of Atlantic ocean, from cold North seas to the "warm" Mediterranean........
    AND I repeat, there is nothing wrong with ocean going tugboat sailing together with battle group. It is there for just in case that something happen like it was happen to Duncan, Zumwalt....

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:30 am

    Am i the only one noticing those are not ocean going tugs... but port tugs?

    Well in the spirit of humorous jabs... that is because when NATO vessels break down they don't make it to the open ocean... Twisted Evil

    The shore looks pretty distant to me in that photo...


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:50 am

    Despite all the badmouthing of the Kuznetsov, the ship is still sailing with its own powerplant and did not need a tug on this long voyage.

    USS Zumwalt and HMS Duncan both needed to be towed by tugboats this week.

    I suggest that the US and Royal navies have tugs escort their overpriced problematic junk from now on.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  hoom on Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:34 am

    During berthing is the important part.
    No, tugs during berthing is entirely normal & wouldn't have generated any articles.
    Towed back to port is the important part.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Militarov on Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Am i the only one noticing those are not ocean going tugs... but port tugs?

    Well in the spirit of humorous jabs... that is because when NATO vessels break down they don't make it to the open ocean...  Twisted Evil

    The shore looks pretty distant to me in that photo...

    Its Portsmouth, judging by background port is some 2-3 miles away probably.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:41 pm

    Militarov wrote:Am i the only one noticing those are not ocean going tugs... but port tugs?

    No. I pointed that out, when tugs were used for berthing HMS Duncan.
    But of course for some here, a permanent ocean-going tug escort = two port tugs to facilitate berthing, once after an incident. Go figure.

    TheArmenian wrote:overpriced problematic junk from now on.

    Overpriced junk like e.g. sixty 9000 t AB destroyers. Love it lol1

    GarryB wrote:Well in the spirit of humorous jabs... that is because when NATO vessels break down they don't make it to the open ocean...  Twisted Evil

    The shore looks pretty distant to me in that photo...

    Not really. Having permanent tug escort is Kuz's special feat for more than a decade now, globally. Hence its uniquely bad position in that regard.
    Humor aside, this is a tough reality that the Russians are yet to address.

    Taking easy and false comfort in a NATO vessel having an incident is missing the point.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  hoom on Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:42 am

    Taking easy and false comfort in a NATO vessel having an incident is missing the point.
    The point I see is that it's a timely reminder even the latest high tech Best Western Engineering propulsion systems can have issues, not just ageing Soviet era stuff.

    Re: Tugs, I'm coming round to the idea of multi-purpose tug/supply ship(/icebreaker) as standard procedure especially looking at a bunch of the new auxiliaries in-build/coming online.
    Also notable that many Western navies are recently going for ships that aren't much different but based off Oil industry supply ships rather than tugs.


    Meanwhile at Hmeymim Suspect http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2282635.html

    A sympathetic reading would be that the arrestors on K are still borked -> sent the Su-33s over so they can drop bombs while waiting for spares/fix?

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:59 am

    The picture is dated November 20th. It is the 26th as of now. 6 days ago. So there is a good chance that they moved the jets to land after the failure due to fuel running out and to fix the issues and find possible solution. Better this way.

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