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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

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    runaway
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  runaway on Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:34 pm

    I dont think the Kutznetsov is in any danger, no big deal if she wont go to an upgrade the most important is a good air wing and escort ships.
    The Nahkimov is badly needed in the pacific when the Mistrals get there, and after that Peter the great will need the same upgrade.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:56 pm

    dionis wrote:The fact that there is only one dry dock large enough to work on ships of that size is pretty pathetic. Neutral
    How many ships of that size does Russia operate?

    Not so pathetic anymore.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:34 am

    The only thing i know about the mig-29k is that the delivery started in 2010 but i think there will be enough for an entire airwing.
    According to this article:

    http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20131022/184294872/MiG-Begins-Testing-New-Russian-Navy-Fighter-Jets-.html

    Mig has just started testing the Mig-29Ks ordered by the Russian Navy.

    The contract was signed Feb 2012 for 20 single seat and 4 two seat aircraft, the first four of which will be delivered by the end of this year (2013).

    The 2010 contract was for Indian Migs which were delivered on time.

    I rather doubt they will take them to syrian waters in such a case... they will use them at their new carrier training facility and then start landing them on the Kuznetsov, though I suspect they likely took the opportunity to give some of their pilots experience with the Indian Migs for landing and flight experience.

    Don't the SS-N-19s have nuclear warheads, or were those removed or dearmed?
    Removing them from their tubes would be trivial and it is very unlikely the missiles would be loaded for a complete refit that includes replacing the missile tubes anyway.

    And of course the other reason... why would 12 Granits in tubes stop the K upgrade when the ship they are upgrading instead carries 20 Granits and has part nuclear propulsion already?

    I know of at least two flying around Yeysk this summer.
    They will likely be Mig test birds checking the different equipment for the Russian Navy is working before handing them over to the RuN.

    The fact that there is only one dry dock large enough to work on ships of that size is pretty pathetic.
    Who said they only have one?

    There is a world of difference between only having one and only having one available.

    The Nahkimov is badly needed in the pacific when the Mistrals get there, and after that Peter the great will need the same upgrade.
    Exactly, and the second upgrade should be easier with the experience of the first under their belt... at the end of the day the Russian Navy doesn't need the day to day use of a fixed wing carrier as it only makes the occasional long voyage... once its Kirovs are patched up and fully upgraded however they will be formidable ships to base a carrier group around... that will be when a carrier will be vastly more useful.



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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  SOC on Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:06 am

    GarryB wrote:And of course the other reason... why would 12 Granits in tubes stop the K upgrade when the ship they are upgrading instead carries 20 Granits and has part nuclear propulsion already?
    No, I was wonering if the Granits might be enough to prevent Kuznetsov from using the Baltic facilities for upgrade work while Nakhimov is in Severodvinsk.

    GarryB wrote:They will likely be Mig test birds checking the different equipment for the Russian Navy is working before handing them over to the RuN.
    Maybe, but they may also be part of an operational unit sent there for local workup while the ski-jump is finished, there was an Su-25UTG with them at the time.

    EDIT: nevermind, no they aren't, not if the report that the first VMF birds are entering flight test is accurate.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:11 pm

    Which docks could build or upgrade an aircraft carrier in Russia?

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:05 am

    AFAIK the Granits are to be removed as part of the upgrade so I rather doubt they would go to an upgrade with missiles in the tubes.


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  TR1 on Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:43 am

    The Granits have been removed from Kuzya a long time ago in any case.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:22 pm

    They should cancel the mistrals...
    I do not see in what way they will be needed in the pacific with Ka-52 helicopters?
    So expensive transport ship cannot is purely for attack purpose and there are no pirates in the pacific .

    with the money  they could better ..

    -Fully modernize Peter the great too, with latest kalibr missiles and S-400 and pantsir defenses ,naval version.
    -or fully repair modernize the Aircraft Carrier to in transport more planes and include a few helicopters too.
    -or have budget for another 2-3 brand new stealth destroyer. with latest sams and missiles.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:00 am

    Vann7 wrote:They should cancel the mistrals...
    I do not see in what way they will be needed in the pacific with Ka-52 helicopters?
    So expensive transport ship cannot is purely for attack purpose and there are no pirates in the pacific .

    with the money  they could better ..

    -Fully modernize Peter the great too, with latest kalibr missiles and S-400 and pantsir defenses ,naval version.
    -or fully repair modernize the Aircraft Carrier to in transport more planes and include a few helicopters too.
    -or have budget for another 2-3 brand new stealth destroyer. with latest sams and missiles.
    Sounds like a nice force for a nuclear war

    But the Mistrals have the advantage of being rather more versatile for the same amount of money

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  TR1 on Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:17 am

    He makes a good point though, Mistrals+ Ka-52 won't be doing much of anything in the Pacific. Emergency relief maybe, but Ka-52s are useless for that.

    Black Sea is a more convincing location in this case, or piracy patrols. That is assuming you are going to strike inland bases.

    The whole concept is funky and I am still critical of the whole program.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:04 am

    They should cancel the mistrals...
    I do not see in what way they will be needed in the pacific with Ka-52 helicopters?
    So expensive transport ship cannot is purely for attack purpose and there are no pirates in the pacific .
    Perhaps you should do a little research first... there are plenty of pirate attacks in the Pacific and Pacific rim... in the area around Indonesia there are probably more pirates than around Africa, but in any case a helicopter landing vessel would not be the ideal vessel for anti piracy missions anyway.

    The Mistrals strengthen Russian forces in the Pacific and guarantee the security of the Kurile Islands.

    As a secondary mission they can be used for humanitarian purposes like the earthquake in Myanma... the Pacific Rim is notorious for seismic activity and floods and hurricanes and other natural disasters are quite likely events in the future... especially with warming conditions.

    As an added bonus... the non nuclear powered Mistrals can be sent to Pacific countries on missions to meet and greet and its onboard hospital could be utilised by going to the various island nations of the pacific and offering healthcare to people who would otherwise just suffer in silence. Such good will visits earn the US a lot of brownie points despite the damage they have done in the region with their nuclear testing and other short sighted adventures.


    The money spent developing the naval Ka-52 could lead to countries like Indonesia adopting small ships with a few (3-5) helos on board to support island hopping operations.

    -Fully modernize Peter the great too, with latest kalibr missiles and S-400 and pantsir defenses ,naval version.
    The two Kirov class vessels are likely to get major upgrades anyway.

    -or fully repair modernize the Aircraft Carrier to in transport more planes and include a few helicopters too.
    The Kuznetsov already carries a few dozen helos... to carry transports with any meaningful transport capacity they will need cats... the upgrade is already planned for and budgeted for too.

    -or have budget for another 2-3 brand new stealth destroyer. with latest sams and missiles.
    They are already making such vessels and it is production that is the problem not money... cancelling the Mistrals would leave them with a huge penalty for the already largely complete vessel and likely another financial penalty for stopping the other vessel and they will not end up with any freed up cash... and even if they did that freed up cash would not put any stealth destroyers into service any quicker.

    Emergency relief maybe, but Ka-52s are useless for that.
    Naval Ka-52s will have powerful radar and likely very good optical search systems which would be ideal for search and rescue in bad weather. The four weapons pylons could carry rescue equipment that could be dropped to survivors or just extra fuel to extend the operational range of the aircraft.

    Black Sea is a more convincing location in this case, or piracy patrols. That is assuming you are going to strike inland bases.
    Mistrals in the Black Sea would be like a shark in a gold fish bowl... over such short ranges air dropping would be much faster.

    In the Pacific there is Japan, and China that can be belligerent to Russia... there is also a few countries Russia could improve relations with like Vietnam and Indonesia. Had Russia had a few Mistrals when the flooding occurred in Myanma a couple of years back a lot could have been done to save lives and build stronger ties with a country that has no love or trust of the west.


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  medo on Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:57 pm

    Ka-52 is not a plane, but helicopter. This is true. But still not every navy have carriers, but big majority have corvettes, frigated and destroyers equipped with helicopters. Ka-52K will be well equipped helicopter to defend Mistral group and support marines in their operation. New radar and excellent ESM equipment will give impressive armament to Ka-52K with AA misiles, antiship missiles, antiradar missiles, ATGMs and other armament. They could well protect fleet against enemy helicopters with AA armament, attack enemy ships, attack enemy AD on the shore and give CAS to marines in battles on the shores.

    Main task of Mistrals in Pacific and maybe as well in Northern fleet will be to protect Sakhalin and Kuril islands as well as northern naval route in Arctic sea. There are not many ground forces, so Mistrals will have important role to deploy forces in this region.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:34 pm

    Ka-52K is a powerful asset in naval warfare.

    - It can use Kh-35 missiles for anti-ship strikes just as well as a MiG-29K can.
    - It can use Ataka, Vikhr, Khrizantema, Hermes  and other precision guided weapons against both naval and ground targets just as well as a MIG-29K can.
    - It can use unguided rockets and bombs just as well as a MiG-29K can.

    In fact, in the air to sea or air to ground roles, it can do everything a naval fighter like MiG-29K can (it just flies slower and has a shorter range).
    The only mission it is not as effective as a naval fighter is air to air.

    In addition, the Ka-52K has the flexibility to take off from the Mistral type mother-ship, land and refuel on destroyer sized ship a few hundred miles away, and take off to strike at naval or sea targets. Aircraft can not do that.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:23 pm

    TR1 wrote:He makes a good point though, Mistrals+ Ka-52 won't be doing much of anything in the Pacific. Emergency relief maybe, but Ka-52s are useless for that.

    Black Sea is a more convincing location in this case, or piracy patrols. That is assuming you are going to strike inland bases.

    The whole concept is funky and I am still critical of the whole program.
    In the Pacific they have a whole lot to do:

    Humanitarian assistance to disaster areas (no need to use the Ka-52s here; just the Mistral will be enough)
    Support any sort of UN military or peacekeeping operations that might crop up anywhere along the Pacific coast of Asia or the Americas
    Landing operations in case the Jips take the Kurils by surprise
    Anti-ship and ASW warfare (Ka-52s armed with the appropriate missiles + Ka-31s)
    Hospital ship for the Pacific Fleet, both while at home port and for away missions (they could probably use some modern extra capacity)

    Even in the roles here where the Ka-52 doesn't have a place; it can still stick around to defend the ship from threats.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  dionis on Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:51 am

    TR1 wrote:
    dionis wrote:The fact that there is only one dry dock large enough to work on ships of that size is pretty pathetic. Neutral
    How many ships of that size does Russia operate?

    Not so pathetic anymore.
    Ahem ahem... they sure WANT to operate more ships of that size. At this rate, there's never going to be any real progress in having a sizable force of larger ships.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:41 am

    Ka-52 is not a plane, but helicopter.
    The Ka-52K is certainly not a plane, but with its AESA radar and 2.5 ton weapon capacity it would be very much a Harrier type asset for the Mistrals as it will have excellent air and surface detection capabilities in all weathers down to the wave tops, which will reduce the effectiveness of enemy anti ship missile attacks or low flying aircraft.

    Its ability to carry next generation AAMs will likely make it as potent as many previous generation fighters.

    Air cover would ideally be provided by a fixed wing carrier like the K or land based aircraft, but in an emergency a Ka-31 could provide AEW support and the Ka-52K a limited CAP.

    There are not many ground forces, so Mistrals will have important role to deploy forces in this region.
    Mistrals would be the most efficient way of moving troops with their equipment in the north and the pacific.

    The only mission it is not as effective as a naval fighter is air to air.
    Quite true, though in air to air engagements it will be in serious trouble against an F-35 or F/A-18, but against a EP-3 Orion or MPA it would actually be rather dangerous armed with R-73s and R-77s.

    In addition, the Ka-52K has the flexibility to take off from the Mistral type mother-ship, land and refuel on destroyer sized ship a few hundred miles away, and take off to strike at naval or sea targets. Aircraft can not do that.
    Excellent point. It could also do the same via ice breakers... most of the Russian icebreakers having helicopter landing spots and support equipment.

    Even in the roles here where the Ka-52 doesn't have a place; it can still stick around to defend the ship from threats.
    Nothing says stop being a pirate like this:



    The Ka-52 in its land based form is largely an armed recon helo and for many humanitarian missions searching for survivors is critical... monitoring air space to prevent collisions and direct helos... those weapon pylons don't have to carry death and destruction... life rafts, survival equipment, even UAV dispensors used to deliver medical supplies... even to deal with looters or unrest if need be.


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:03 pm

    I like those ka-52k helo's cant they put a few on the K?

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:07 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:I like those ka-52k helo's cant they put a few on the K?
    Sshhhhhh.....don't say it so loud. You are revealing a tightly kept secret.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:08 am

    I would expect the Ka-52K would be an excellent addition to the K, and I also think that a few Ka-31s from the K would be a useful addition to Mistral class carriers... and I suspect France might even consider such aircraft for their Mistrals too...


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:48 pm

    Haha Nice. I heard that The british were going to put apaches on the queen Elizabeth so i thought why The russians not?
    Will there be à deal between the french and russian about the KA-52K? Or Will the french probably design their own?

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:04 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Haha Nice. I heard that The british were going to put apaches on the queen Elizabeth so i thought why The russians not?
    Will there be à deal between the french and russian about the KA-52K? Or Will the french probably design their own?
    Germany and France were planning to equip the EC665 Tiger with all measurements for Naval use, so i don't think so.
    Also i would not wish that any NATO member and actually that Iraq will not recieve Ka-52, since Iraq has today a US bitch as its government.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:21 am

    Actually having a little think about it... they probably would only be interested in the Ka-64 as the other aircraft have such high main rotor systems they wont fit on French Mistrals anyway.

    A foreign country that is on friendly terms with Russia might order an altered Mistral to carry Russian aircraft however... depends on how successful they are.


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually having a little think about it... they probably would only be interested in the Ka-64 as the other aircraft have such high main rotor systems they wont fit on French Mistrals anyway.

    A foreign country that is on friendly terms with Russia might order an altered Mistral to carry Russian aircraft however... depends on how successful they are.
    Wont happen.

    Politics, and economics stands in the way. France would be more interested in getting their Tigers up on the Mistral before they would be willing to buy Ka helicopters from Russia. Simply put, NATO high command would go apeshit over it, Politicians in France and elsewhere would go nuts as well saying things like "You are financially aiding the enemy" and "Why not support domestic European designs?". It would be political suicide if they did.

    The only thing France purchased from Russia was laser guided artillery shells with some of mixed quality. I believe it was a good will deal as they purchase something while Russia purchase something. Now, it is just Russia purchases something.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:37 pm

    As I mentioned in my previous post France wont buy them because they wont fit in the hangars of the French Mistral.

    The main chance for export would be for a country to want a Mistral class vessel to be equipped from the outset with Kamovs which would mean they could buy the Mistrals modified the way the Russians had them modified, then they would be compatible... and likely be much better armed in terms of self defence too.


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:52 pm

    The KA-52 will be very vulnerable for naval operations.. Any pirate with a fishing boat could pull a manpad and blow
    the aligator in pieces when they facing another direction. They are too slow and easy targets for man pads with lazer guidance.
    Too slow to cover long distance fast ,
    too small for humanitarian use.. can only carry 2 passenger or perhaps 3..  The mistral is too expensive for an humanitarian ship,
    for mas evacuation you could simply develop a civilian ship that will be far cheaper.  you all can say what you want but even
    others Top ranked Russian generals/ministers have complained about how useless are this mistral for Russia.

    What is even more questionable is they buying 2-4.. Biggest waste of money ever . The mistrals with Ka-52s will not become
    a deterrent to anyone other than pirates ,because any decent combat plane can detect the Ka-52 and shut it down from very large
    distances . helicopters were never intended to 1 vs 1 combat jets ,even if they can do it.In my opinion they buying the
    mistrals only to lure France away of Syria. To buy their cooperation with them. And Helicopters like Ka-52 its place belong
    to the army ,for close combat support to infantry. If they ever used in the sea close to insurgents they will be fall like flies
    from the air. Contrary to Ground fights in Urban zones ,in close combat support to infrantry ,In the open sea there is nothing blocking the view of anyone with a manpad. and the will be no infantry protecting it ,they will be alone vs terrorist. and they will be  will be an easy prey to any combat plane. THey werent designed for air superiority but for close ground support.

    For humanitarian missions again wrong helicopter.  for that a transport helicopter like mi-8 will be far more useful.
    To rescue people when their boat sinks. with the money they will spend in mistrals they could also modernize but also expand  
    their ship buildings facilities that they seriously need. So that they can produce more warships at the same time and
    significantly speed their production.

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