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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

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    medo

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  medo on Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:???? So what you are saying is that an Su-33 is bloody useless and cannot find targets nor can it use a radio or data link to share information about targets other platforms have found....

    Don't you think it would be likely that if they gave it the ability to hit ground targets with dumb bombs, that they might also give it the capacity to find said targets or be passed target data while in flight?

    Modernization of Su-33 went quite quickly and all we know is, that they install Gefest SVP-24 complex in it, which is a targeting computer connected with weather sensors and satellite navigation for accuracy. Standard Su-33 is air superiority fighter like old Su-27, where radar have air targets modes only and IRST have only IR sensor and laser range finder. Old data link is also for air interceptions only and with very limited network capabilities. Without proper data link to receive data informations from others and without radar and IRST with capabilities to operate against ground targets, Su-33 Will not be of big help against ground targets, but could only work as air defense escort. I hope they modernize it at least to Su-30KN level if not to Su-27SM or Su-30M2 level. SVP-24 on Su-24M is supported with ground attack radar and Kaira EO complex as well as with data link. I hope we Will soon know more regarding Su-33.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:24 pm

    I see that the usual bias is present with folks like Garry especially. The point is still there though, the sole Russian CV is severely troubled and the RuN cannot yet (if ever, with such an asset and air group) reach the level of operational sophistication that MN does with the CdG and assorted Rafales/Hawkeyes. There's no point in mentioning the USN here.


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    medo

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  medo on Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:39 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:I see that the usual bias is present with folks like Garry especially. The point is still there though, the sole Russian CV is severely troubled and cannot, yet (if ever), reach the level of operational sophistication in that MN does with CdG. There's no point in mentioning the USN here.

    Kuznetsov itself is not troubled and a squadron of multirole MiG-29KR/KUBR could do any job in front of them. Same goes for Ka-52K. Problem is only with Su-33, which without deeper modernization is stil only an air superiority fighter with very limited air to ground capabilities. Su-33 need modernization to Su-27SM level to become truely multirole fighter like MiG-29K, which could do any job.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:45 pm

    medo wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:I see that the usual bias is present with folks like Garry especially. The point is still there though, the sole Russian CV is severely troubled and cannot, yet (if ever), reach the level of operational sophistication in that MN does with CdG. There's no point in mentioning the USN here.

    Kuznetsov itself is not troubled and a squadron of multirole MiG-29KR/KUBR could do any job in front of them. Same goes for Ka-52K. Problem is only with Su-33, which without deeper modernization is stil only an air superiority fighter with very limited air to ground capabilities. Su-33 need modernization to Su-27SM level to become truely multirole fighter like MiG-29K, which could do any job.

    The power-plant is a disaster which makes the ship troubled. Those MiGs could, sure, but that's no use if there's only four or six of them. And the dumped Ka-52K from the Mistral deal would seem oddly misused if they were to equip in numerous numbers such a CV. I get the feeling that they have no plan whatsoever in getting serious with this. Hopefully they'll manage to eventually operate in combat a good two dozen or so, of some modern strike fighter up there. Let it be the MiG-29K, it's a handier plane than the dated Su-33s.

    PS. the repeated word "could" in your post is the reason this discussion and points are made.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:48 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    The power-plant is a disaster which makes the ship troubled.  

    A disaster!.....Pump the brakes Kilo, this is gross exaggeration. There is too much unfair publicity on the Kuznetsov. The ship made several previous trips to the Mediterranean in the past. It always made it back home. Hardly a disaster.

    Those MiGs could, sure, but that's no use if there's only four or six of them.
    It took only 2x F16s and 2x A10s to inflict crtitical damage on the Syrian Army in Deir Al-Zor. You think the same number of MiG-29s are harmless to the bearded terrorists?
    The days of hundred bomber raids are long gone. In most cases one or two aircraft armed with PGMs are sufficient to achieve a given objective.

    And the dumped Ka-52K from the Mistral deal would seem oddly misused if they were to equip in numerous numbers such a CV.
    Dumped!... did you really say dumped? If the Ka-52K project was dumped, why are they building any?

    I get the feeling that they have no plan whatsoever in getting serious with this.
    Disaster!....Dumped!... Not serious!
    Your choice of words and adjectives really sucks!

    Hopefully they'll manage to eventually operate in combat a good two dozen or so, of some modern strike fighter up there. Let it be the MiG-29K, it's a handier plane than the dated Su-33s.
    And that is the plan... and they are serious about it.
    No more Su-33s will be built. Whatever they have will be retired in time and will be replaced gradually by your preferred MiGs

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Singular_trafo on Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What they saying is an active bombing system with unguided bombs works well up to 3 km height, above that the precision of it degrading .

    So some article writer for National Interest website tells us that the Russians are morons and liars and when they say their system is effective and they are adding the system to their theatre bombers (Tu-22M3M), and their long range tactical strike bombers (Su-24 and Su-34) and now to their naval fighters (Su-33) that obviously they must be idiots and don't know as much as America does.

    America tried it and failed so it is not possible that the Russians might have gotten it right.

    BTW making cheap dumb bombs effective is unAmerican... there is no profit margin there... it makes more sense to fit expensive guidance packages to cheap dumb bombs like Paveway...

    And actualy the manpads can shoot down an airplane that flying under 3km , so the system is effective only against enemy who doesn't has manpads.

    Yeah... of course... those dumb Russians don't know what they are talking about and their claims of being able to bomb from safe altitudes with the accuracy of guided weapons must all be made up... because some American said so.

    It is logical, considering that the normal, unguided air deffence guns are useless above 5-6 km.It is the inverse of the same reason why you need to use guided rockets to shoot down anything above 5-6km.

    It is as logical to expect good information about Russian equipment on that site as it is to expect good information about the US from the leader of North Korea... and for much the same reasons... countries that think they are at war have no reason to tell the truth.

    Do they replace its old IRST with more modern IRST like those on Su-30 with TV and laser designator channels inside for ground attacks and modernize radar with ground attack modes? Such modernizations will make Su-33 useful plane over Syria, without them it will be useless as it will not be able to share target informations with others and without capabilities to find targets by itself.

    ???? So what you are saying is that an Su-33 is bloody useless and cannot find targets nor can it use a radio or data link to share information about targets other platforms have found....

    Don't you think it would be likely that if they gave it the ability to hit ground targets with dumb bombs, that they might also give it the capacity to find said targets or be passed target data while in flight?

    Problem is if you need 4 bombs on 3 km, then you need 8 on 6 km and 16 pn 12 km.

    And if that were true what if they need 2 bombs at 12,000m?

    If the bombers were dropping bombs from 3km then where are all the videos of Tu-22M3s releasing bombs from the ground perspective... surely such an attack would be easily visible... unless they were bombing from over 10km altitude and targets on the ground didn't even know they were there until the bombs exploded on the ground.

    Relax : )

    A tu-160 will spread its bombs over 200 meter long area, doesn't matter what you do, simply because the bombs are hanging above each other.


    By the videos that they showed a tu-160 released 12 bombs onto one target, so the precision of the bombing can't be too good.Othervise one should be enough.

    The 12 bombs fallen onto roughtly 1-2 km long line.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  Singular_trafo on Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:28 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:I see that the usual bias is present with folks like Garry especially. The point is still there though, the sole Russian CV is severely troubled and the RuN cannot yet (if ever, with such an asset and air group) reach the level of operational sophistication that MN does with the CdG and assorted Rafales/Hawkeyes. There's no point in mentioning the USN here.

    These are different ships with different objectives.

    The US ships are parts of an invasion/agressor navy, that has the target to supress the ship trafic in one area, or to attack countries.

    Due to that the carriers are long range ones, with minimal protection but maximal aircraft number, and depending on the other parts of the invasion flotilla.

    The CCCP carriers flotilla was a protective force, to protect the shores and the submarines.

    Due to that those was dependent on the long range anti submarine/ awacs aircrafts, and doesn't needed any sophisticated power plants.


    If the CCCP wanted nuclear carriers with catapults then they should build them , instead of the Kirovs.But they wanted to protect the homeland, not invade other countries.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:42 pm

    Without proper data link to receive data informations from others and without radar and IRST with capabilities to operate against ground targets, Su-33 Will not be of big help against ground targets, but could only work as air defense escort.

    So with no radar or IRST or datalink old model Su-25s were useless for attacking ground targets?

    I guess flying to a ground coordinate and being told where to look for your target does not work any more?

    If the upgraded Su-33s will be useless except as dumb fighter escorts can I ask why you think they gave them navigation and computer bombing capabilities?

    Problem is only with Su-33, which without deeper modernization is stil only an air superiority fighter with very limited air to ground capabilities. Su-33 need modernization to Su-27SM level to become truely multirole fighter like MiG-29K, which could do any job.

    Why?

    Their job is to protect the fleet. They have been upgraded to allow them to drop dumb bombs on point targets... why waste money adapting them to carry more expensive bombs and missiles?

    If the CCCP wanted nuclear carriers with catapults then they should build them , instead of the Kirovs.But they wanted to protect the homeland, not invade other countries.

    Exactly... the US and to a lessor extent France have colonies to impress and impose their will upon with force... they need Nimitz type carriers... though in the case of the French they can't afford 100K bohemouths... they have to murder coloured people on a budget.

    The US knows it gets it money from being dominant so it spend the money knowing the effect is war and death with feeds their machine and pays for everything... though they have been over spending for some time, so obviously they will have to lower taxes and print more money.

    Personally I am predicting that the K will sit off Syria for a couple of months sending MiGs and Flankers into Syrian territory against a range of ground targets to test some tactics and weapons, and the Ka-52s will operate near the coast testing weapons and tactics.  After 3-4 months of that they will go back to Russia and absorb all the new found knowledge regarding what they can or can't do and what weapons and systems work and what don't work, and use that to decide on the shape of their future carrier and aircraft upgrade options.


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    par far

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  par far on Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:46 pm

    Anyone know how many and what types of Fighter Jets and Helicopters, Admiral Kuznetsov, will be carrying, when it goes to Syria? I think will be a very good time to see, what, Admiral Kuznetsov, can do.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  par far on Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:14 am

    This is for people like KiloGolf, first the F 35 was a lemon and now USS Gerald R. Ford can't fight.


    https://www.rt.com/usa/352639-us-carrier-gerald-ford-reliablity-problems/


    http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/25/politics/uss-gerald-r-ford-aircraft-carrier-delay/


    CNN is the Zionists own channel.

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:21 am

    par far wrote:Anyone know how many and what types of Fighter Jets and Helicopters, Admiral Kuznetsov, will be carrying, when it goes to Syria? I think will be a very good time to see, what, Admiral Kuznetsov, can do.

    word is it will bring some of its current SU's some of the new MIG-29K and some Naval based KA-52 attack Choppers, to test them out I guess.
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    A1RMAN

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  A1RMAN on Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:59 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    par far wrote:Anyone know how many and what types of Fighter Jets and Helicopters, Admiral Kuznetsov, will be carrying, when it goes to Syria? I think will be a very good time to see, what, Admiral Kuznetsov, can do.

    to test them out I guess.

    The whole trip to Syria is nothing but big test for Kuznetsov, planes, helos and crew. Kuznetsov goes for repairs and modernization in 2017, so there would  be no opportunity to use it for few years. So, in my opinion the whole point of this operation is to get all sorts of experience, so there would be something to base further plans on:

    - What Kuznetsov modernization should be like
    - How Su-33 and Mig29K gonna perform
    - How training program for naval pilots should look like

    Let's hope it goes without casualties. I'm kinda worried for new inexperienced pilots there. No
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:09 am

    A1RMAN wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    par far wrote:Anyone know how many and what types of Fighter Jets and Helicopters, Admiral Kuznetsov, will be carrying, when it goes to Syria? I think will be a very good time to see, what, Admiral Kuznetsov, can do.

    to test them out I guess.

    The whole trip to Syria is nothing but big test for Kuznetsov, planes, helos and crew. Kuznetsov goes for repairs and modernization in 2017, so there would  be no opportunity to use it for few years. So, in my opinion the whole point of this operation is to get all sorts of experience, so there would be something to base further plans on:

    - What Kuznetsov modernization should be like
    - How Su-33 and Mig29K gonna perform
    - How training program for naval pilots should look like

    Let's hope it goes without casualties. I'm kinda worried for new inexperienced pilots there. No

    For the most part they already know what they want to do with it.

    1. Replace the propulsion system.
    2. Expand it's flight deck.
    3. Maybe a Catapult.

    Still I have my doubts that ship will ever face a serious modernization chances are it will just be kept in shape enough to sail around Russia shores acting has a training ship until they can field something else
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:38 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    par far wrote:Anyone know how many and what types of Fighter Jets and Helicopters, Admiral Kuznetsov, will be carrying, when it goes to Syria? I think will be a very good time to see, what, Admiral Kuznetsov, can do.

    word is it will bring some of its current SU's some of the new MIG-29K and some Naval based KA-52 attack Choppers, to test them out I guess.

    Can't remember exactly where but I read a while ago that Kuz will be carrying 15 helicopters (Ka-52) and 15 fighters (Su-33 and Mig-29K) but I can remember how many of each.

    Looks like testing helicopters seem to be a priority.

    And I agree with Seg, most of it service life will be spent as training/tech-testing platform.

    Should bigger carriers enter the play, Kuznetzov will be used as strike carrier.

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  par far on Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:01 am

    A1RMAN wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    par far wrote:Anyone know how many and what types of Fighter Jets and Helicopters, Admiral Kuznetsov, will be carrying, when it goes to Syria? I think will be a very good time to see, what, Admiral Kuznetsov, can do.

    to test them out I guess.

    The whole trip to Syria is nothing but big test for Kuznetsov, planes, helos and crew. Kuznetsov goes for repairs and modernization in 2017, so there would  be no opportunity to use it for few years. So, in my opinion the whole point of this operation is to get all sorts of experience, so there would be something to base further plans on:

    - What Kuznetsov modernization should be like
    - How Su-33 and Mig29K gonna perform
    - How training program for naval pilots should look like

    Let's hope it goes without casualties. I'm kinda worried for new inexperienced pilots there. No

    If the Kuznetsob goes for for repairs and modernization, than Russia will not have a aircraft carrier, what will happen than?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:13 am

    par far wrote:.....

    If the Kuznetsob goes for for repairs and modernization, than Russia will not have a aircraft carrier, what will happen than?

    Nothing.

    Carriers are not vital component of Russian naval doctrine. Subs are.
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    A1RMAN

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  A1RMAN on Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:40 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    For the most part they already know what they want to do with it.

    1. Replace the propulsion system.
    2. Expand it's flight deck.
    3. Maybe a Catapult.

    Still I have my doubts that ship will ever face a serious modernization chances are it will just be kept in shape enough to sail around Russia shores acting has a training ship until they can field something else

    Any idea what propulsion system they gonna install?
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:04 am

    A1RMAN wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    For the most part they already know what they want to do with it.

    1. Replace the propulsion system.
    2. Expand it's flight deck.
    3. Maybe a Catapult.

    Still I have my doubts that ship will ever face a serious modernization chances are it will just be kept in shape enough to sail around Russia shores acting has a training ship until they can field something else

    Any idea what propulsion system they gonna install?

    If they are going to, Gas turbines I'd put my money on.

    I don't see them bothering to make this thing nuclear.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:55 am

    They have developed new compact nuclear power plants for large ships... this would be an ideal opportunity to test a few in the K.

    That would free up an enormous amount of space both in terms of the old boilers and old propulsion system but also in terms of on board fuel capacity... which could now focus on Avgas for the aircraft.

    There is no point deploying steam cats, it would make sense to have a early prototype EM cat which would benefit from large amounts of electrical power from a nuke propulsion system.

    Steam cats are dead technology and a technological dead end... if they are going to spend energy and resources on cats it makes sense to develop EM cats and maybe develop a heavier fixed wing aircraft for the AWACS role and transport and tanker roles...


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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  A1RMAN on Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:They have developed new compact nuclear power plants for large ships... this would be an ideal opportunity to test a few in the K.

    Who "they"? Rolling Eyes

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  par far on Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:21 pm

    "RUSSIAN AIRCRAFT CARRIER ‘ADMIRAL KUZNETSOV’ IS ON WAY TO SYRIA – PHOTO".


    https://southfront.org/russian-aircraft-carrier-admiral-kuznetsov-is-on-way-to-syria-photo/



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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:20 pm

    A1RMAN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:They have developed new compact nuclear power plants for large ships... this would be an ideal opportunity to test a few in the K.

    Who "they"? Rolling Eyes

    Rosatom

    http://www.rosatom.ru/en/
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    A1RMAN

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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  A1RMAN on Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:58 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    A1RMAN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:They have developed new compact nuclear power plants for large ships... this would be an ideal opportunity to test a few in the K.

    Who "they"? Rolling Eyes

    Rosatom

    Sorry, but I completely missed this news. So they just made a new reactor without testing it anywhere? Or just working prototype?
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:36 pm

    A1RMAN wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    A1RMAN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:They have developed new compact nuclear power plants for large ships... this would be an ideal opportunity to test a few in the K.

    Who "they"? Rolling Eyes

    Rosatom

    Sorry, but I completely missed this news. So they just made a new reactor without testing it anywhere? Or just working prototype?

    RITM-200 and of course they tested it. It is being installed on Arktika icebreaker right now:




    It will also be used on floating nuclear power plants and Lider class destroyers.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%98%D0%A2%D0%9C_200
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    Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News

    Post  A1RMAN on Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:17 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    RITM-200 and of course they tested it. It is being installed on Arktika icebreaker right now:


    It will also be used on floating nuclear power plants and Lider class destroyers.



    Thanks a lot! thumbsup

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