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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

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    Firebird
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  Firebird on Sun May 04, 2014 11:53 am

    Normally you avoid wars to save innocent lives.
    But this sort of junta vs innocents resistance war kills MUCH more innocents.

    Therefore there is no option except Russian intervention, as I see it.
    Moral, legal, historical, on every ground their is.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sun May 04, 2014 11:55 am

    Just dethrone the government and give to the german-polish minority in Western parts of the country a reality check! Since early November they don't compromise with anything! Enough is enough! You don't have Sukhoi and UVZ for nothing!
    Having said this, don't get me wrong. I am all in for referendums or split of the country if this is what it takes to keep peace, although I hope to keep all Ukraine and send western bitches back where they belong. Problem is western part has one motive to make russians/pro-russians/orthodox you name it to work hard for all,while the western part have enough free time to worship uncle Sam and plot against Russia. THIS IS NOT TO BE TOLERATED!

    PS Just don't repeat the mistakes of Georgia. If they went in Tbilisi and dethroned Saakashvili and kill them like Sadam they would had avoid a second operation. Now AMAZINGLY Georgians are again ready to join NATO. You don't negotiate with snakes. You smash them!


    Last edited by Hannibal Barca on Sun May 04, 2014 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

    macedonian
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  macedonian on Sun May 04, 2014 11:58 am

    Firebird wrote:Normally you avoid wars to save innocent lives.
    But this sort of junta vs innocents resistance war kills MUCH more innocents.

    Therefore there is no option except Russian intervention, as I see it.
    Moral, legal, historical, on every ground their is.

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Just dethrone the government and give to the german-polish minority in Western parts of the country a reality check! Since early November they don't compromise with anything! Enough is enough! You don't have Sukhoi and UVZ for nothing!
    Having said this, don't get me wrong. I am all in for referendums or split of the country if this is what it takes to keep peace, although I hope to keep all Ukraine and send western bitches back where they belong. Problem is western part has one motive to make russians/pro-russians/orthodox you name it to work hard for all,while the western part have enough free time to worship uncle Sam and plot against Russia. THIS IS NOT TO BE TOLERATED!

    No arguments from me.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  macedonian on Sun May 04, 2014 12:24 pm

    TASS

    TASS wrote:MOSCOW, May 04 /ITAR-TASS/. Forces in the east of Ukraine fighting for the federalization of the country have regained control over the cities and townships of Konstantinovka, Slavyansk, Andreyevka, and Kramatorsk, Russia-24 television channel said.

    As a result of an assault by the self-defense forces, Ukrainian military have had to pull back to the area of Kramatorsk airdrome, a report said.

    Good.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sun May 04, 2014 12:36 pm

    Sorry for intervening once again but this is the normal back and forth we are used to in such type of situations. Am afraid that this is not gonna stop this way, quite the opposite.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  macedonian on Sun May 04, 2014 12:38 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Sorry for intervening once again but this is the normal back and forth we are used to in such type of situations. Am afraid that this is not gonna stop this way, quite the opposite.

    I'm afraid you might be right:

    Ukraine's PM has blamed the country's security services for failing to stop violence in the southern city of Odessa that left more than 40 people dead.

    BBC wrote:Mr Yatsenyuk said of the Odessa violence: "I personally blame the security service and law enforcement office for doing nothing to stop this crackdown."
    Mr Yatsenyuk said: "These security forces are inefficient and they violated the law."

    I thinks this is a spin, so that he could move 'other' police forces to Odessa. If so, Russia will HAVE to react.

    BBC Link

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    horror....

    Post  arpakola on Sun May 04, 2014 2:10 pm

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d6e_1399200624


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  flamming_python on Sun May 04, 2014 2:29 pm

    For those who haven't seen, Watch

    This is the shameless beating and humiliation of injured, burnt survivors of the fire in the Odessa trade union building. Watch:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d6e_1399200624

    And also this:


    Here is the stream from inside the building, where the cameramen make fun of the dead (I think it's this vid anyway), talking about 'Romeo and Juliet' when they find the corpse of a man and a woman together


    And this fat fuck is shooting at the windows, while the building is burning. Think people would want to try and get out that way? Later this same murdered was caught talking on his phone about how he and his crew fended off the 'seperatists with their bare hands', while the seperatists were armed:



    Here's another pic of some of some of the Maidanist militia firing at the building:


    But even these vids don't capture some of the things I seen in the stream, where one of those lying on the ground battered tried to get on his knees and ask for something and in return some of the hooligans shouted a challenge in his face about whether he loves the Ukraine several times, his face was one of pure terror and then when he didn't answer in time he was battered some more.

    It's true that some of the people, bystanders, people on the pro-Maidan side, were trying to save lives. Some on the pro-Maidan side covered people with their own bodies, so that they wouldn't be beaten to death, some came to the aid of the people trapped inside and tried to form ropes, etc... for them to climb down (only for these survivors to be mercilessly beaten when they did escape). There were doctor volunteers there, trying to save people, with some people blocking their paths and preventing lives being saved.
    But on the whole, the mood was bloodthirsty, among the crowd - there were scant few voices of reason. In their majority - there were calls for 'jump back to Russia!' when people were climbing down, beatings of survivors and gloating over deaths. The same episode repeated even more fiercly in social media networks, many of the participants were boasting of their success, of the people they killed. One of the girls who took part, possibly mixing Molotov cocktails - said that on the one hand she is horrified by the faces of those killed, but that she also feels immense pride at her actions, saving the Ukraine (because the Ukr. government in fact encourages their country to be 'saved' in this way, by killing those who disagree with them).

    On youtube, vkontakte, etc... the comments were vile. Photo albums were put up about the 'Russian shashlik/BBQ', 'roasted meat, anyone hungry?', etc... Some of the comment on youtube, hailing the deaths of scum seperatists and praising the perpetrators, have been getting upwards of 100 likes.
    Here's a particularly vile example:

    I'm not going to translate it. Those who can read Russian will read it, those who can't - probably not worth reading anyway

    The first vid in particular, along with the vid of the Maidanist firing at the building, and all the molotov-cocktails being thrown - it all reminds me of an 80s Soviet WW2 movie called - Come and See (Idi i Smotri), about the partisan war in Belarussia; I saw it about 6-7 years ago for the first time.

    There was a scene in which the main character, a 13-14 year old boy, ends up in a village just as its being visited by a German Einsetzgrupen, who promptly round up all the women & children younger than 12 in one large wooden building, and burn it to the ground, firing machine-gun fire into the building simultaneously; while laughing and cheering demonically. The kid himself climbs out of the building shortly before the massacre, the Germans drag him around a bit, put him on his knees, pose around him in a big squad and put a pistol to his head and then smile for a group photo. Soon as the photo is done, they let him go and leave him, moving on to other business.

    At the time, I thought this whole scene was exaggerated. A typical Soviet-film art style; exaggeration for effect, and dehumanizing the Nazi enemy not necessarily for propaganda purposes (although that was part of it too), but for the artistic effect too. I mean I could understand how some people can be massacred like this, but surely not to the this jeering, and laughter, and celebration?
    But now I'm sure that it was real, that this is exactly how these sorts of things happened, and we saw it again a couple days ago in Odessa.
    No exaggeration, no hyperbole - just come and see the parallels for yourselves:




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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sun May 04, 2014 2:33 pm

    Since you mentioned...Belarus is the ideal place to start the pincher move while the other is Crimea. Kiev junta will paralyze completely being confronted with two overwhelming fronts that can act independently.
    From Belarus Kiev is REALLY close. Tell to Lukashenko to give a hand else most propably his Western partners have a place for him....near Kaddafi.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  sepheronx on Sun May 04, 2014 2:45 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Since you mentioned...Belarus is the ideal place to start the pincher move while the other is Crimea. Kiev junta will paralyze completely being confronted with two overwhelming fronts that can act independently.
    From Belarus Kiev is REALLY close. Tell to Lukashenko to give a hand else most propably his Western partners have a place for him....near Kaddafi.

    Lukashenko has been trying to play hardball for too long now with Russia. It would be in his best interest to side with Russia on this matter, as Russia would definitely not want to see the same thing happen in Belarus as it happened in Ukraine.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sun May 04, 2014 2:47 pm

    macedonian wrote:

    BBC wrote:Mr Yatsenyuk said of the Odessa violence: "I personally blame the security service and law enforcement office for doing nothing to stop this crackdown."
    Mr Yatsenyuk said: "These security forces are inefficient and they violated the law."
    jebus cripes, black hole calling the kettle black...

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  Firebird on Sun May 04, 2014 2:50 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Since you mentioned...Belarus is the ideal place to start the pincher move while the other is Crimea. Kiev junta will paralyze completely being confronted with two overwhelming fronts that can act independently.
    From Belarus Kiev is REALLY close. Tell to Lukashenko to give a hand else most propably his Western partners have a place for him....near Kaddafi.

    Yeah I'd thought of that back when the Crimea situation was happening. You also could have numbers coming from Transnistria, and use Donetsk etc as a staging post.

    Basically half of the Ukraine region is pro Russian already anyway.

    Having heavy choppers etc within range (as is the case Belarus to Kiev) is a big advantage.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  arpakola on Sun May 04, 2014 3:01 pm




    live>>>. http://www.ustream.tv/channel/newsfront

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  arpakola on Sun May 04, 2014 3:59 pm

    http://www.ustream.tv/channel/andriyfedotov#
    -----------------------------------------------

    Timoshenko openly planning provocation on May 9:
    http://vk.com/berkut_kiev?z=video244...254fb049be32bf

    "In order to anger Odessa, we need an attack on veterans, people who we will call veterans"

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  sepheronx on Sun May 04, 2014 4:26 pm

    arpakola wrote:http://www.ustream.tv/channel/andriyfedotov#
    -----------------------------------------------

    Timoshenko openly planning provocation on May 9:
    http://vk.com/berkut_kiev?z=video244...254fb049be32bf

    "In order to anger Odessa, we need an attack on veterans, people who we will call veterans"

    That woman is instigating the whole violence.  Someone should actually put her down.

    here is the flip side though. If she pushes for it, and someone does do something, expect flow blown hatred and a real show.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  arpakola on Sun May 04, 2014 4:35 pm




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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  Regular on Sun May 04, 2014 6:20 pm

    NSFW! I'M SPEECHLESS!




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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  Vann7 on Sun May 04, 2014 8:26 pm

    I still say that the massacre in odessa could have been avoided ,if there was a strong participation of citizens pro Russia.
    A city with 2 millions residents should have no problems to get a rally of at least 3,000 people everyday.. Simply the Pro Russian activist
    were just a few hundred and were overwhelmed by the 1,000 kahrkov neo nazis residents. Just think about that.. the neo nazis can mobilize 1,000 people far away to another city to attack Russians ..and the anti-kiev protesteros cannot get every day or weekend more than a few hundred in their own territory. The Total passiveness and lack of participation of pro Russian protesters is shameful at best.. they need to
    kick their own ass ,and start to organize and create local defenses forces...  if they want to protect their lives.. because as we saw ,the police in Odessa is afraid to fight the neo nazis and will not protect them. What happens is the Kiev junta only arm the people government or civilian that they are more or less sure will not betray them.. thats why most police that live in the Pro Russian zones are disarmed. While at the same time the allow the Euromaidan to get weapons and move freely any place.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  Firebird on Sun May 04, 2014 9:07 pm

    There's certain things that need to be remembered.

    Most of the decent Odessa people were in work. The scum from Lvov were freeloading off decent people in the S and East, who actually work for a living. The Maiden scum were obviously paid to intimidate anyone out of protesting v the govt. Whether it was Shite Sector or Tymoscum's mob.

    I saw one prick. Heavily built yet able to move very sharply for its frame. Armour underneath baggy clothing. I said "If that prick isnt some kind of junta special forces then I'm Ayatollah Knomeini".

    It was all planned. The cover of the so called "football". The tame/inffective cops and emergency services. The fact these scum travelloed large distances AND had weapons.

    The anti Maiden are currently fighting tanks and choppers all over the East. The Shite Sector recruited from all over the West and concentrated on Odessa as a surprise attack. Ofcourse they have tanks etc in support.

    Anti Maiden could do a "snap attack" in Lvov and cause immense slaughter. People woildnt say "where were Right Sector". Its just the nature of the situation. No one expected the Nazis to commit such atrocities in Odessa of all places, so they didnt prepare against it.
    There again, I thought Lvov would be looking like Nagasaki by now...

    I've seen some of the groteque pics AND some of the reports. It may very well have been chemical weapons and NOT CO poisoning.

    The war needs to be taken to Lvov etc.

    An eye for an eye. Otherwise the junta's parties will continue intimidating decent Anti maiden folk out of protesting.
    Russia needs to pull its finger out, IMO.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  medo on Sun May 04, 2014 9:43 pm

    I would say, that federalists in the east now have to start thinking strategically. Instead to occupy state buildings in their towns, they have to take control on a border with Russia at least in one point, that they could receive needed material as food, medicines, weapons, ammo and volunteers from Russia or Crimea. If they could not secure a point on border, than should at least part of coast in Azov sea to get supplies from sea. They have to form larger units, which could fight with RS and foreign mercs.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  flamming_python on Sun May 04, 2014 10:02 pm

    - News from the Western front!
    Apparently Pravyj Sektor and the local police have acted pre-emptively in the Zakarpatiya region, and seized the 'House of the Carpathian Rusyn's' building there, which was being rented out by one of the active Rusyn organisations.
    There is some chatter now, that the Rusyns/Hungarians might not wait until 11th May to start action, which was the deadline that their self-proclaimed leader Petro Getsko set for the Ukrainian government to start some negotiations or be kicked out.


    - Italy is stating that it's ready to send peacekeeping forces to the Ukraine if such a decision is taken in the UN
    http://ria.ru/world/20140504/1006495411.html

    - Avakov is raging about the pro-Russian protestors caught yesterday being set free by the police and local prosecutor, instead of them being transferred to Kiev as ordered, as well as the Odessa police laying down their arms and refusing to carry out any orders whatsoever (no surprise, they've been blamed yet again and this time by both the pro-Russians who lost 40 people 2 days but also the government which is shifting all the blame on them too)
    http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/05/4/7024348/

    - New head of police has just arrived 3 hours ago and gave a speech an hour ago in Odessa, thanked the Pravyj Sektor forces, shouted the fascist slogan 'Slava Ukraine!' 3x times, then gave a speech in Ukrainian about restoring order, catching seperatists, etc... he then repeated some important parts of his speech in Russian too. He is from Ivano-Frankovsk, a far Western region; one of the 3 most Bandera-supporting ones, and was a participant at Maidan. He's been in the forces for over 30 years and has held a number of positions in different regions of the Ukraine, mostly western and central ones (full details here: http://ria.ru/world/20140504/1006523298.html#ixzz30lxUW7dr).
    While he was wrapping up his speech some monkey climbed the door frame a few meters up of the building he was making a speech in front of, and switched off one of the light fixtures up there for no apparent reason. Then a bunch of Pravyj Sektor people in motorcycle helmets and knife-proof vests and camo, balaclavas - stepped up into the limelight and made speeches via the megaphone after he was done, well I didn't even pay attention honestly - they were just talking the regular BS.
    All this happened on the Odessa vid stream about 1 hour ago (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/new-odessa), hopefully someone will put up a youtube vid in the next couple of hours.

    - Ukrainian Pravyj Sektor (or perhaps Maidan hundreds) radicals calling to 'kill them all' earlier today. They are pissed off about the anti-Maidan protestors today:

    Seperately, many threats have been made to burn all the anti-Maidan protestors alive a 2nd time if they try to seize the regional administration building.

    - Loads of activity in Russia, from reports of Russian veterans of Chechnya and Afghanistan forming volunteer batallions and entering the Ukraine (http://rusvesna.su/news/1399211987), to Russian nationalist organisations forming their own groups and volunteers.
    In the past week we've already heard about the Israeli battallion of ex-Soviets that's ready to come and also the Crimean militia with its statement of entering and not taking any prisoners.
    Kadyrov has stated that thousands are ready to volunteer from Chechnya and are waiting for the order and Putin's decision.
    The Lugansk rebels have already broken the border today; they captured a border guard post or patrol and now have a cordon through which people and material could theoretically pass.
    It's another matter though whether the Russian border guards will let anything through, and I doubt they will. Russia will no doubt keep things under control and if it decides to intervene, it will do so either in full with the involvement of its own armed forces - or not at all.
    However, militias and volunteers could potentially make it to mainland Ukraine via a sea route from the Crimea

    - Donetsk announces the creation of the 1st republican army regiment (I presume of the south-east army). Today the military commission building in Donetsk was captured by the rebels, and yesterday the military commission building in Lugansk was captured, along with a bunch of Ukrainian Nats Guard who at first resisted but after a firefight, agreed to give up their weapons and leave.
    http://russian.rt.com/article/30548#ixzz30lIFSXrO
    I will also remind that yesterday the DPR announced the issuing of firearms to background-checked people with passports, etc... So far the amount of people that will be issued firearms is limited, but it's a marked step up from the previous situation; until now the employment and equipping of firearms has been monopolized only by a small cadre of rebels with military and police backgrounds. But now it seems that they are getting serious about their army and forming auxiliary forces.

    - Donetsk mayor has given up his powers to the anti-Maidan forces in the city, he has symbollically given the key to the building to the federalization supporters
    http://ria.ru/world/20140504/1006525604.html#ixzz30m4fOs5d

    - Some Lugansk or Donestk mines have shut-down operations yesterday and today. Apparently, miners from no less than 7 mines have risen to take up positions on checkpoints. A lot of these mines are still working so it seems that many of these miners will be doing this in their off-time
    http://russian.rt.com/article/30541#ixzz30kq6P1kM

    - Ukrainian military has ridden through Kramatorsk yesterday but it didn't capture it or dislodge the rebels, they pretty much just passed through, and the rebels took up their previous positions again. A CNN report even admited as much:

    Similar stories in Slavyansk, other towns. There was a shootout in Konstantinovka yesterday but not many details. And the Urkainian military arrived in Mariupol but then it was under the control of Kiev anyway.
    Looks like the latest (3rd) CTO operation has become bogged down again. I haven't heard of any Ukrainian progress or action today whatsoever, the initiative was with the rebels.
    A report has come in that the Kramatorsk SBU building has been taken under the control of the Ukrainian Nats Guard today. And now apparently - it's on fire: http://russian.rt.com/article/30570#ixzz30mBpgzvl

    - Big rally in Berlin yesterday (or perhaps the days prior?), with the Soviet anthem being played

    There was a smaller rally in Frankfurt too, protesting the Ukrainian actions and supporting Russia.


    - On the plus side it's expected that the Ukraine is expected to enter the top-5 in the Eurovision entries, possibly even win it due to the crisis. Bad news for Ukrainian government though - their Eurovision singer is a known anti-Maidan supporter; Maria Yaremchuk. She's from a central Ukrainian region not an eastern one, which makes it all the more embarassing I guess. Ukrainian government is reportedly trying to think up of a way to remove her.
    http://lifenews.ru/news/132594

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  Vann7 on Sun May 04, 2014 11:20 pm

    LOL more protest in Germany in support of Russia ,than in Ukraine eastern or southern regions..
    Perhaps people afraid of the neo nazis and the army.. still shocking. Because civilians totally unarmed in massive numbers can overthrow any government. Egypt counter coup is a perfect example of how HUGE rallies can overthrow a government. without firing a single shot. If Muslins can do it in the middle east as was Egypt ,that they had to fight not nazis but something worse.. Alqaeda fanatics. then ukrainians can do it. So many people was against Morsi that was backed by US and its NATO allies..that the Army that was in Power ,the same ones that Morsi placed in power..betrayed him and arrested the President ,siding with the side of civilians demanding a real democracy with a secular government and full freedom of religion.

    Even though Egypt population is twice of Ukraine.. even half of that participation against the Junta in kiev will totally collapse the army
    offense and create a chain of events that will provoke all cities to raise against the junta in kiev is most eastern ,south regions but also central Ukraine which Yakunoych got from 30% to 45% of the votes..

    This is the protest Pro Federalization that Ukraine needs. Compare this..



    with this..



    It just pathetic ,makes you wonder if it worth for RUssia to bother helping Ukrainians if they do nothing for themselves and do not participate in rallies against illegal junta in Kiev after the europe maidan massacre against Pro Russians in their city.




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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  zino on Sun May 04, 2014 11:35 pm

    Thank you flamming, much appreciated.
    IMHO news from Donetsk are really good, the oblast seems in total rebel's control, institution included. It's a huge step.
    Unfortunatly time is running fast, will not be easy to disrupt the 25th may election in more than two oblast, too few I think.
    The news is old but: Lukin is a badass liberal we have to say! If only all russian liberal would be like him...
    I wish to add some other thought but the news are faster than my English, so I greet you all right now.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun May 04, 2014 11:49 pm

    I really hope the rusyns have more willpower to support the antimaidan revolution

    BTW I heard in the Chernigov-Sumy regions there is a marcked communist resistance and maidan there don't have much local support. Is this true?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #3

    Post  gaurav on Mon May 05, 2014 6:23 am

    Komissar wrote:
    BTW I heard in the Chernigov-Sumy regions there is a marcked communist resistance and maidan there don't have much local support. Is this true?

    I dont know about the locations of these regions are they in Western Ukraine..?


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