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    Russia pre and post Οctober Revolution

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    Khepesh

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    Re: Russia pre and post Οctober Revolution

    Post  Khepesh on Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:14 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:Excuse me for necroposting, but I see an aspect not discussed here.
    Had the revolution failed and the Whites won, then of course no emigration from Russia. This would have meant that the Aufbau organisation would not have been formed and consequently no very valuable collaboration with Hitler in the very early years 1920-23. I would point out that perhaps a majority of senior Aufbau members did not have Russian family names, but German, Baltic and Ukranian ones, Bork, Vinberg, Scheubner-Richter, Poltavets-Ostranitsa etc. However, they saw themselves politically as Russian and wanted revenge against the Bolsheviks and, as the strong Jewish element at top of Bolsheviks is undeniable, also against Jews. Hitler, even in those very early years, was clearly the man to assist, and they did. I do not say that without Aufbau there would not have been an NSDAP, but without their help things may have turned out differently, and I suggest anything different to what eventually did happen could hardly have been worse. So, in very general and arguable terms, a White victory and Hitler may not have gained power.
    How would a few displaced aristocrats give hitler enough financing and influence? The reason NSDAP rose to power was by the will and funding of the capitalist colonial empires banking loans, corporations and the nonjewish german bourgeois industrialist familes like krupp who saw hitler as a tool to crush worker's rights movements and anticapitalist dissent.
    Aufbau exerted a strong influence on Hitler, creating a stronger dynamic in his views. Alfred Rosenberg was a prominent member of Aufbau, so tho as an organisation they dissapeared after 1923, people like Rosenberg did not, and in 1923 became editor of Volkischer Beobachter. While it is known that before WWI Hitler was not anti-semitic, these ideas appeared after he had contact with Aufbau. This is not insignificant, and without such virulent anti-semitism coupled with anti-Bolshevism/Russophobia, then Hitler may not have been as we know him. Hitler was a sort of socialist, Goebbels had in the early days proposed that left and right should join forces against capitalism, so they had no specific reason, other than nationalism, to be so anti Bolshevik and anti Russian, except when the anti-semitism and massive butthurt of the dispossed Aufbau is added. As I mentioned before, most of Aufbau were not really Russians, but people from areas with butthurt, Rosenberg was from Estonia, many others Galicians, and people in OUN and UPA looked to Rosenberg as a sort of philosophical father figure, like this caricature from 1936. Remove the anti Jew/Bolshevik/Russian elements from Hitler, and not much is left, and those elements are strongly from Aufbau proto banderas and maidanuts. btw, this is not to excuse Hitler at all, more an attack on banderas....
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russia pre and post Οctober Revolution

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:02 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Yes, to both posts above. There would still have been war as Versailles saw to that, and war in the Pacific would have happened regardless. The point I want to make is that tho a war in Europe would have happened eventually, if it happened without Hitler and without the extreme ideological divide between Left and Right, then perhaps it may have been a "normal" war without the nazi nightmare we got. Tho Aufbau was not the creator of NSDAP and faded from the scene in 1923, it may just be possible that without their help at the very beginning, things may have turned out differently as regards Hitler. If he still came to power, which is likely, then maybe without the early help perhaps a bit later than he did, and giving allied powers more time to prepare. Tho with a Russia, not a Soviet union, seriously damaged and struggling to recover from the war, maybe in 1939, if it still happened then, no Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and not likely an equivalent, and maybe Hitler invaded Poland and did not stop until the Volga, or Urals...

    I agree that the dogmatic element made the war a real nightmare, however, while the whole Jews+Commies=Evul idea added a special flavour, Jews alone were quite the culprits in the eyes of the (some) Junkers. The German Imperial army ordered a central inquiry on the roles the Jews had in the breakdown of the German forces. This, while Adlof Hitter was a nobody. The various little groups that would make the Stahlhelm a competitor (for a while) of the NSDAP would be all full of antisemites, believing hard as hell that Joos were to blame. The whole banking=Joo bloodsucker zentral is a recurring theme of the 19th century. Before the commies, you had Free-Masons, before them you had Jewish-controlled socialists. In other words the Jews were going to get some, regardless on the tomfoolery that was Adlof the mono-balled idiot.

    The biggest challenge was the Soviet Union that stood by the Weimar Republic and arguably helped built the ground that saw Adolf claim the fruits of in the mid 30's. The biggest challenge was the fact that the SSSR offered Germany a breathing space, before Germany became all crazy, through cheaper than dirt cotton, grain and iron ore. DAT was the inherent scare of the "Allies" a freakish multiton, multi headed behemoth with brains and people to spare, combining the two menaces to the "civilized world". German philosophical madness (alternative thinking system) and Russian brutal resilience (endless ressources). It was already a de facto situation prior to the war, with an intertwined family relationship (yay for inbreds). And it was a dead-on relationship after. This point, that is often neglected in "official" historiography, (because you know we can't confess that favoring a murderous asshole was in order to split a real world competitor), is a real hindsight to the long game that is still being played today.


    Now there is also another problem, without CCCP, Turkey wouldn't be able to rally and recover the way it did. In that Sense Mustafa Kemal had the best luck of the world that The Soviet Union was out to get Das Kapital, because it allowed Turkey to crush the Armenians, flip the bird to the treaty of Sèvres and reclaim through open warfare pretty much every little speck of ground it could without getting Freedomized from the competing Empires. Furthermore, it kinda protected the SSSR quite well on its underbelly given the "Allies" would have to go through Iran to get to "Russia". And we know how that ended before even starting with a chaotic Reza Shah interregnum and then a rather hostile new "emperor" in Persia.

    So while anti-Soviet sentiment among numerous exiles (and on this one I am with you, Ukro-bullshit was a strong engine behind British propaganda during the 20's and 30's) really provided a fertile ground for anti-Russian garbage, the real aims for any Führer out there were the ressources of Russia, this is certain. And whatever dressing it took, we can all rest assured that it would be quite the carnage.

    On a side note, I hope no Turkish posters would mind, but the Turks took out the Armenian millyet on purely spot-made BS. No need for millenarist hatred a la Anti-semitism. Pure hato-cracy. You side with my enemy, I feed you to the pigs. The British went on the Boers without much problem. The US issued a properly genocidary order in the Philippines. The US wasn't a wholly crazy country either.

    So no war is "normal", the Turks set out to purify a lot of Anatolian cities of their Greek populations (and some Albanian too with other Albanians help). The same Turks(Ottomans) emptied Morea of their Griko/Arvanit (Albanian) inhabitants again, while some Albanians and Greeks were helping them.

    So the atrocities don't need to be purely dogmatic, sometimes they are simply set up by stiff, stubborn resistance. And I believe that the Russian man and woman are the prototypical "easterners", capable of enduring DPRK-style x1000 regimes, if the foreigner comes to knock on the door. And them gratify them with double the pain.

    This is why Russia is what it is. A giant better not gotten worked up. Shuravi Shaytan etc.



    So we can rest assured that had the war broken with any other big ensemble of nations, it would have been maybe a bit longer, but ended with my signature anyway.
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    Khepesh

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    Re: Russia pre and post Οctober Revolution

    Post  Khepesh on Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:16 pm

    ^ Well, I'll go with that, and perhaps suggest the cause is all down to Kerensky, or Lvov, or Churchill? hm, complicated.

    andrewlya

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    Russia pre and post Οctober Revolution

    Post  andrewlya on Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:58 pm

    Hi all,
    I wanted to know is

    1.what the life was like for Russians before Bolsheviks came to power and what was it like for them under the Tsars, was it better or worse?

    2.Did the majority of Russians want a revolution and topple the monarchy?

    3.Did Communists improve the lives of Russians during Soviet times?

    4.What would Russia have been like if communists had never taken it over?

    Thanks
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia pre and post Οctober Revolution

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:54 pm

    Ill address purely based upon my family perspective:
    1) if you werent a land owner or had a high position, life was not very good. My great grandfather owned land and was cossack.

    2)Not all Russians. Like my great grandfather.

    3)Depends which era. Apparently under Breznev and Kruschev it was pretty decent. Everyone had a roof over their head, food on the table, most of the infrastructure was still new(ish) and maintained. Education was good and such. Some personal freedoms of lets say ease of getting a new car was more difficult but transit system was leaps and bounds better than most western countries.

    4) I imagine it wouldnt be different. Eventually the people would have gotten rid of the monarchy or monarchy would have lost all power and be a figure head like everyone else. Industrial revolution would have happened anyway so I imagine a lot of similar industries they have now would have existed. Maybe there would be even more poorer people and average person may be heavily in debt and not own their own homes. Soviet times gave nearly everyone their own flat. So in todays times, most people have their own home.

    andrewlya

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    Re: Russia pre and post Οctober Revolution

    Post  andrewlya on Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:59 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Ill address purely based upon my family perspective:
    1) if you werent a land owner or had a high position, life was not very good. My great grandfather owned land and was cossack.

    2)Not all Russians. Like my great grandfather.

    3)Depends which era. Apparently under Breznev and Kruschev it was pretty decent. Everyone had a roof over their head, food on the table, most of the infrastructure was still new(ish) and maintained. Education was good and such. Some personal freedoms of lets say ease of getting a new car was more difficult but transit system was leaps and bounds better than most western countries.

    4) I imagine it wouldnt be different. Eventually the people would have gotten rid of the monarchy or monarchy would have lost all power and be a figure head like everyone else.  Industrial revolution would have happened anyway so I imagine a lot of similar industries they have now would have existed. Maybe there would be even more poorer people and average person may be heavily in debt and not own their own homes. Soviet times gave nearly everyone their own flat.  So in todays times, most people have their own home.
    Are you Russian?
    I was born in Russia and my Mum told me that my great grand dad had to flee from his farm (he was a wealthy man) as the Bolsheviks were coming to confiscate all what he had worked for and would have probably arrested him.

    I really wonder how it would have worked out for Russia had it not been for the Communist regime. On one hand it was a cruel regime on the other they were a great power with some amazing technological advances. I am not a fan of Communism or Soviet regime but there were a few achievements one could be proud of such as space advancement and the victory over Germans as well as everyone had a job back then, there were no homeless people at all.

    Would you say life in Russia are much better now than it was in Soviet times?
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia pre and post Οctober Revolution

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:13 pm

    Some family is from areas of Russia, or former Russian empire (funny enough, Novorussian territory) while some others are from Lviv (so former Polish territory). I was born here in Canada. Still here in Canada and cannot leave till my Wife more or less is ready.

    Some will view their lives worst now than before.  Some will see their lives much better than before.  It all depends on the people really.  There are the liberal Russians who just hate themselves no matter how good they may got it. You can find these people anywhere though and not just Russians (they just get most of the media attention compared to the other national ones with the same attitude).  There are Russians who are happy with even little.  There are Russians who seem to have everything and want more, etc etc etc.  Would I say the system is better now? Yes and No.  I would say yes in the pretext that you can pretty much buy whatever you want, and go wherever you want so long as you have the money to do so.  Life can be very similar to anywhere else so long as you have the money.  The no aspect would be that there isn't the same security as before.  In other words, there are homeless people in Russia, there are really hungry people in Russia.  There are people who can barely obtain the basic necessities.  Most of these issues were not evident till the end of the soviet union (mostly just hungry).  These days, it almost seems like a dog vs dog world like the USA which I am totally against and I think the fellow man is supposed to help their neighbor out, and vice versa.   But this is a byproduct of the glorification of the west.  That also said, the 90's brought a lot of disaster and only in the resent years (maybe decade) has Russia really been trying to fix the issues.  So many issues though are leftovers that it will take decades more to fix.  They are on the right track though.

    Soviet Union though, for countries like Ukraine, would have been a ton better than it is now.  Just look what they have done to themselves in the last year.  Absolutely disgusting.  Kinda sad when my own family members whom are from Ukraine state that it is just a loser country.  Soviet times is what really helped change that country for the better.  And now they squandered it away.

    Svyatoslavich

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    Re: Russia pre and post Οctober Revolution

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:41 pm

    There was a previous thread ("History of Imperial Russia") where the same question was asked, I will just copy the same post I placed there:
    [Imperial Russia] was a mostly rural, peasant country for sure, but with the fastest industrial growth in the world in the late 19th-early 20th centuries. Serfdom was abolished around 1860, and this improved the conditions of many peasants. Most peasants were very poor compared to Western Europeans, but anyway there were a few who were rich, others who could be considered middle class (small landowners), and literacy was also growing fast among peasants and workers. I know a woman whose parents were Byelorussians (Russian-speaking) and moved to Argentina in the 1920's - they were peasants, literate and owned their land, and had good cultural and material life conditions before the revolution. The reforms put in practice by prime-minister Stolypin in the early 20th century gave arable lands in Southern Siberia and low-interest credits for peasants, which also improved their condition. Revolutionaries were so afraid of Stolypin's reforms because, if successful, it would delay or simply abort the revolution they were fighting for (revolutionaries, either liberal or socialist, are evil because they necessarily need the conditions of the people to be extremely bad, otherwise no revolution will ever occur), and he was assassinated by an anarchist in Kiev. Last, there was a thriving middle class in cities, consisting of traders, doctors, professors, lawyers, etc.
    Does this mean that everything was perfect in Russia, that everyone was happy before the Revolution? Of course not, there was a lot of injustices, inequalities and oppression, from which revolutionary feelings bred. But the Bolsheviks, striving for a "perfect" society, only made things worse, and a terrible terror regime under Lenin and Stalin came upon Russia that caused dozens of millions to die, many of the brightest people to emigrate, a situation much worse than anything the previous tsars and emperors had ever done, even those considered the bloodiest ones, like Ivan IV. Russia is nowadays in a current difficult demographic situation mostly due to the Bolsheviks - not only the terror from 1917-1953, but also legal abortion and low birth rate have decimated Russian population. Before the Revolution, Russia had a very fast growing population.

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