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    If the White Army had won?

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    Khepesh
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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  Khepesh on Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:14 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:Excuse me for necroposting, but I see an aspect not discussed here.
    Had the revolution failed and the Whites won, then of course no emigration from Russia. This would have meant that the Aufbau organisation would not have been formed and consequently no very valuable collaboration with Hitler in the very early years 1920-23. I would point out that perhaps a majority of senior Aufbau members did not have Russian family names, but German, Baltic and Ukranian ones, Bork, Vinberg, Scheubner-Richter, Poltavets-Ostranitsa etc. However, they saw themselves politically as Russian and wanted revenge against the Bolsheviks and, as the strong Jewish element at top of Bolsheviks is undeniable, also against Jews. Hitler, even in those very early years, was clearly the man to assist, and they did. I do not say that without Aufbau there would not have been an NSDAP, but without their help things may have turned out differently, and I suggest anything different to what eventually did happen could hardly have been worse. So, in very general and arguable terms, a White victory and Hitler may not have gained power.
    How would a few displaced aristocrats give hitler enough financing and influence? The reason NSDAP rose to power was by the will and funding of the capitalist colonial empires banking loans, corporations and the nonjewish german bourgeois industrialist familes like krupp who saw hitler as a tool to crush worker's rights movements and anticapitalist dissent.
    Aufbau exerted a strong influence on Hitler, creating a stronger dynamic in his views. Alfred Rosenberg was a prominent member of Aufbau, so tho as an organisation they dissapeared after 1923, people like Rosenberg did not, and in 1923 became editor of Volkischer Beobachter. While it is known that before WWI Hitler was not anti-semitic, these ideas appeared after he had contact with Aufbau. This is not insignificant, and without such virulent anti-semitism coupled with anti-Bolshevism/Russophobia, then Hitler may not have been as we know him. Hitler was a sort of socialist, Goebbels had in the early days proposed that left and right should join forces against capitalism, so they had no specific reason, other than nationalism, to be so anti Bolshevik and anti Russian, except when the anti-semitism and massive butthurt of the dispossed Aufbau is added. As I mentioned before, most of Aufbau were not really Russians, but people from areas with butthurt, Rosenberg was from Estonia, many others Galicians, and people in OUN and UPA looked to Rosenberg as a sort of philosophical father figure, like this caricature from 1936. Remove the anti Jew/Bolshevik/Russian elements from Hitler, and not much is left, and those elements are strongly from Aufbau proto banderas and maidanuts. btw, this is not to excuse Hitler at all, more an attack on banderas....

    KoTeMoRe
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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:02 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Yes, to both posts above. There would still have been war as Versailles saw to that, and war in the Pacific would have happened regardless. The point I want to make is that tho a war in Europe would have happened eventually, if it happened without Hitler and without the extreme ideological divide between Left and Right, then perhaps it may have been a "normal" war without the nazi nightmare we got. Tho Aufbau was not the creator of NSDAP and faded from the scene in 1923, it may just be possible that without their help at the very beginning, things may have turned out differently as regards Hitler. If he still came to power, which is likely, then maybe without the early help perhaps a bit later than he did, and giving allied powers more time to prepare. Tho with a Russia, not a Soviet union, seriously damaged and struggling to recover from the war, maybe in 1939, if it still happened then, no Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and not likely an equivalent, and maybe Hitler invaded Poland and did not stop until the Volga, or Urals...

    I agree that the dogmatic element made the war a real nightmare, however, while the whole Jews+Commies=Evul idea added a special flavour, Jews alone were quite the culprits in the eyes of the (some) Junkers. The German Imperial army ordered a central inquiry on the roles the Jews had in the breakdown of the German forces. This, while Adlof Hitter was a nobody. The various little groups that would make the Stahlhelm a competitor (for a while) of the NSDAP would be all full of antisemites, believing hard as hell that Joos were to blame. The whole banking=Joo bloodsucker zentral is a recurring theme of the 19th century. Before the commies, you had Free-Masons, before them you had Jewish-controlled socialists. In other words the Jews were going to get some, regardless on the tomfoolery that was Adlof the mono-balled idiot.

    The biggest challenge was the Soviet Union that stood by the Weimar Republic and arguably helped built the ground that saw Adolf claim the fruits of in the mid 30's. The biggest challenge was the fact that the SSSR offered Germany a breathing space, before Germany became all crazy, through cheaper than dirt cotton, grain and iron ore. DAT was the inherent scare of the "Allies" a freakish multiton, multi headed behemoth with brains and people to spare, combining the two menaces to the "civilized world". German philosophical madness (alternative thinking system) and Russian brutal resilience (endless ressources). It was already a de facto situation prior to the war, with an intertwined family relationship (yay for inbreds). And it was a dead-on relationship after. This point, that is often neglected in "official" historiography, (because you know we can't confess that favoring a murderous asshole was in order to split a real world competitor), is a real hindsight to the long game that is still being played today.


    Now there is also another problem, without CCCP, Turkey wouldn't be able to rally and recover the way it did. In that Sense Mustafa Kemal had the best luck of the world that The Soviet Union was out to get Das Kapital, because it allowed Turkey to crush the Armenians, flip the bird to the treaty of Sèvres and reclaim through open warfare pretty much every little speck of ground it could without getting Freedomized from the competing Empires. Furthermore, it kinda protected the SSSR quite well on its underbelly given the "Allies" would have to go through Iran to get to "Russia". And we know how that ended before even starting with a chaotic Reza Shah interregnum and then a rather hostile new "emperor" in Persia.

    So while anti-Soviet sentiment among numerous exiles (and on this one I am with you, Ukro-bullshit was a strong engine behind British propaganda during the 20's and 30's) really provided a fertile ground for anti-Russian garbage, the real aims for any Führer out there were the ressources of Russia, this is certain. And whatever dressing it took, we can all rest assured that it would be quite the carnage.

    On a side note, I hope no Turkish posters would mind, but the Turks took out the Armenian millyet on purely spot-made BS. No need for millenarist hatred a la Anti-semitism. Pure hato-cracy. You side with my enemy, I feed you to the pigs. The British went on the Boers without much problem. The US issued a properly genocidary order in the Philippines. The US wasn't a wholly crazy country either.

    So no war is "normal", the Turks set out to purify a lot of Anatolian cities of their Greek populations (and some Albanian too with other Albanians help). The same Turks(Ottomans) emptied Morea of their Griko/Arvanit (Albanian) inhabitants again, while some Albanians and Greeks were helping them.

    So the atrocities don't need to be purely dogmatic, sometimes they are simply set up by stiff, stubborn resistance. And I believe that the Russian man and woman are the prototypical "easterners", capable of enduring DPRK-style x1000 regimes, if the foreigner comes to knock on the door. And them gratify them with double the pain.

    This is why Russia is what it is. A giant better not gotten worked up. Shuravi Shaytan etc.



    So we can rest assured that had the war broken with any other big ensemble of nations, it would have been maybe a bit longer, but ended with my signature anyway.

    Khepesh
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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  Khepesh on Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:16 pm

    ^ Well, I'll go with that, and perhaps suggest the cause is all down to Kerensky, or Lvov, or Churchill? hm, complicated.

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