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    If the White Army had won?

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    DostoevskyRasputin
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    If the White Army had won?

    Post  DostoevskyRasputin on Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:24 pm

    What if the White Army had won the Russian Civil war? What might Russia look like today, and how would it have fared in WW2?

    While the bolsheviks did some bad things, the whites weren't exactly saints either.

    They led massive pogroms against jews, and massacred/ horsewhipped peasents, or other leftist sympathizers.

    I do think if they had won though, there might be slightly more personal freedom in Russia, and not as much "thought crime" that got prosecuted.

    Could it have survived Hitlers attacks? Idk....

    Am I right in thinking it probably would have been similar to Chiang Kai Shek's China in the 1930s?

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:52 pm

    I think this thread would be better suited for the "USSR Military History" forum.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:35 pm

    My russian ancestors would live shittier lives being more exploitated.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:39 pm

    Hard to say, very loaded question.

    But a lot less people would have died between then and 1940.

    The problem with the Whites is it wasn't a legitimate, popular revolutionary opposition to the Bolshevik shitheads. It turned into the symbol of the Ancien Regime, and the population just wasn't going to support that.

    But yeah, the Bolsheviks coming to head during the 1917 revolution is one of the greatest tragedies for Russia.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:43 pm

    A major tragedy in creating in less than 20 years one of the most developed technolical superpowers from a backward monarchial illiterate shithole? A tragedy in providing tens of millions of people with basic rights, some of the best education pay and dignity? A tragedy in stopping foreign imperialist entente colonial invaders helping the former overlords to keep stealing and oppressing, and being against the basic interests of the working class?

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:46 pm

    In 1917 major economical and social improvements were made by the socialists until the start of the civil war in which the feudal landlords and their western imperialist puppeteers started pillaging the land.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:46 pm

    Lol @ you parroting Commie crap.

    A major tragedy is the utter rape of the peasants, the starving of millions, the establishment of a giant prison system for people who did nothing, the executions of hundreds of thousands, etc etc etc.

    Wake up.

    The story of the USSR is one of constant opression, on a scale and effectiveness far more than the Tsar ever achieved.

    Stalin also did a wonderful number with his wartime leadership. Russia lost millions more troops that it needed to because of the idiotic system we had.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:48 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:In 1917 major economical and social improvements were made by the socialists until the start of the civil war in which the feudal landlords and their western imperialist puppeteers started pillaging the land.

    Socialists =/= Bolsheviks.

    Pretty much every other revolutionary party in Russia would have been a huge improvement, but we got the WORST one of them all. One that was absolutely brutal and made no compromises in its retarded obsession with class struggle.
    It's too bad Lenin's train did not hit a mine while going through Germany.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:12 pm

    TR1 wrote:Lol @ you parroting Commie crap.
    wow being the typical internet tough guy Rolling Eyes 

    A major tragedy is the utter rape of the peasants, the starving of millions, the establishment of a giant prison system for people who did nothing, the executions of hundreds of thousands, etc etc etc.

    Wake up.
    Please bring me a historical source that shows communists raped peasents, or you actually mean by "rape" as in drastically improving standards of living, but if you mean by the former the peasents would've been raping themselves, since they were the communists, not some shekeling evil judeobolshevik banker.

    What do you mean the prison system did nothing? You mean it didn't keep criminals and saboteurs in? And keep in mind all east european countries of the time had a similar(or worse) prison systems of the time(including Bulgaria).

    The starving of millions was caused by lack of mechnisation because the god-saved tsar and baron's "traditionalist russian patriotic" policies exasperated by constant bad harvests as well as the leftover damage caused by the entente's and white's scorched pillaging during the civil war. It was only the bolsheviks who stopped this combiantion of reasons by 1937 by improving infastructure, giving agricultural workers a chance to live off the land instead of the landlords to hoard the harvest, and through the introduction of new machinery. There was not a famine in the USSR since even after WW2 the situation wasn't critical.

    To continue that cycle of famine that the tsar's authorities kept trying to make it continue through constant anti-peasent policies during the late 19th century.



    Stalin also did a wonderful number with his wartime leadership. Russia lost millions more troops that it needed to because of the idiotic system we had.
    Person=/= entire system and people in it.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:16 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:In 1917 major economical and social improvements were made by the socialists until the start of the civil war in which the feudal landlords and their western imperialist puppeteers started pillaging the land.

    Socialists =/= Bolsheviks.

    Pretty much every other revolutionary party in Russia would have been a huge improvement, but we got the WORST one of them all. One that was absolutely brutal and made no compromises in its retarded obsession with class struggle.
    It's too bad Lenin's train did not hit a mine while going through Germany.
    Why make compromises when your enemy(the white aristocrats) that want to kill you any chance they got because you rebbeled against there policies that was against your class interests? Obsession with class struggle? Your mistaking that one. It was the whites and western capitalists after all that started the civil war in order to rebond the working class back into their chains.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:21 pm

    That sure is some BS whitewashing of the fact that Bolshevik policies killed millions of peasants because of their incompetence, and the fact that the massive GULAG network had a hell of lot more political and class prisoners than it ever did real criminals.

    I am sure those peasants starving to death during collectivization were really appreciating "the improved standard of living".

    No, it was NOT due to Tsarism. That is baloney. Reform was happening before 1917, and somehow it did not lead to nearly the same number of dead, revolting, or imprisoned peasants.
    You know how unpopular collectivization was with peasants right? If even a slimmer of Commie propoganda was true, they would be welcoming it. The reality was different. It was forced, top down, it was opposed from the bottom until resistance was battered away. Then we had decades of on and off food shortages. Wooo!

    And even when the system "normalized" after Stalin died, what a wonderful paradise the USSR was. How ever did it fall apart? Let me guess- imperialists right?
    Surely not a retarded economy, a corrupt party with a history of mass murder, nah, everything was roses and honey.

    The USSR was a failed project that killed millions of its own citizens. End of story.


    Last edited by TR1 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:25 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:In 1917 major economical and social improvements were made by the socialists until the start of the civil war in which the feudal landlords and their western imperialist puppeteers started pillaging the land.

    Socialists =/= Bolsheviks.

    Pretty much every other revolutionary party in Russia would have been a huge improvement, but we got the WORST one of them all. One that was absolutely brutal and made no compromises in its retarded obsession with class struggle.
    It's too bad Lenin's train did not hit a mine while going through Germany.
    Why make compromises when your enemy(the white aristocrats) that want to kill you any chance they got because you rebbeled against there policies that was against your class interests? Obsession with class struggle? Your mistaking that one. It was the whites and western capitalists after all that started the civil war in order to rebond the working class back into their chains.

    You actually read Bolshevik literature?

    They were obsessed with class struggle from the start, and unlike all the other moderate, far better revolutionaries in Petrograd, they had no notions of compromising and negotiating with the various classes of Russia.

    Talking about chains is funny, since the Bolsheviks promptly put the whole country in chains. All the while blaring about being democratic, lol.

    If we ended up with pretty much any other revolutionary group in power, the standard of living would have raised eventually as well, but without the massive human rights violations in the process.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:03 pm

    If white army had won

    -either you would had a second revolution in WW2 and this time communists would finally had prevail

    -either you would follow the nazi road during the late 20s early 30s but this doesn't mean that the Germans wouldn't had attack anyway...

    In any case, I believe you couldn't avoid a successful revolution during this years, though I have to say that having followed the nazi path instead of the communist one might had been much better. Probably you would have been in a comparable system than the one you have now. I also think that for the rest of the world would have been a better path as well since due to Russia many tried to follow an unattainable economic system.

    But Russia following a liberal democracy all the way starting from the end of WW1 or ousting monarchy peacefully? No f@@ way!!!

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:14 pm

    Had it not been for world war I and the revolution would not have taken place. Before ww1 Russia was a fast developing country, both agricultural and industrial productions were flourishing. I don't know what would have happened had the whites won, it depends on their internal policy. Keeping on economic reforms would have been a better choice than fuelling fascist like nationalism.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:58 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:Had it not been for world war I and the revolution would not have taken place. Before ww1 Russia was a fast developing country, both agricultural and industrial productions were flourishing. I don't know what would have happened had the whites won, it depends on their internal policy. Keeping on economic reforms would have been a better choice than fuelling fascist like nationalism.

    The issue is the White leadership was terrible itself. It was the worst of the old guard, and their economic knowledge was dubious to say the least.

    What Russia needed was revolutionary leadership guided by more moderate forces. Mensheviks were much better people than the Bolshevik nuts (to be fair even the Bolsheviks became radicalized as the civil war went on, but from the start they were against any kind of conciliatory process for the new Russia).

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:16 am

    The White forces were just western and eastern colonial powers interfering and never really had much of a chance.

    I think TR-1 is confusing Stalinism with Communism... Stalin was brutal in his treatment of the Soviet people, but you could argue that without him it is unlikely that the German forces would have marched into the Soviet Union as an invading Army.

    It is very possible that without his hate for communism clouding his judgement and actions that cooperation up until 1933 might have continued and flourished and the Soviets might have joined the Axis... the Soviets had as much in common with Germany as they did with any of the western allies until German invaded.

    With all those reserves and all those resources behind his regime Hitler might have succeeded in isolating the UK so the US would never have had a reason to fight. Japan could have imported resources from the Soviet Union and not needed to invade Siberia or the Pacific to overcome the embargo imposed by the US and UK and commonwealth.

    the difference could have been quite profound, the western allies would have had to have fought much harder and much longer.


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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  dino00 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:22 am

    Embarassed Nonsense everywere...
    If the whites had won russia would be a puppet regime.
    Stalin was the best Soviet president and the people loved him, he gave the poors the best conditions in the world, USSR defeat nazi Germany, was not the cold or the Americans or whatever was the genius of Stalin and the great people of USSR.
    Have Stalin not been murdered and i can´t dream what a country will Soviet Union became.
    There is not Stalinism that doesn´t exist.
    Soviet Union was broken by people in the communist party pretending to be communists and...yes by the imperialists.
    All the things that TRI said was rubish.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:28 am

    Shocked Rolling Eyes 
    So in your opinion the goal of every country should not be maximizing it's prosperity but... not being a puppet. Even if it means hundreds of thousands of forced laborers dying in a single construction project. Rolling Eyes If you want to taste it, claim a refugee status in North Korea and live there for some time.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  BlackArrow on Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:28 pm

    dino00 wrote:Embarassed Nonsense everywere...
    If the whites had won russia would be a puppet regime.
    Stalin was the best Soviet president and the people loved him, he gave the poors the best conditions in the world, USSR defeat nazi Germany, was not the cold or the Americans or whatever was the genius of Stalin and the great people of USSR.
    Have Stalin not been murdered and i can´t dream what a country will Soviet Union became.
    There is not Stalinism that doesn´t exist.
    Soviet Union was broken by people in the communist party pretending to be communists and...yes by the imperialists.
    All the things that TRI said was rubish.  

    Portuguese irony - I love it!

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  dino00 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:33 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:Shocked Rolling Eyes 
    So in your opinion the goal of every country should not be maximizing it's prosperity but... not being a puppet. Even if it means hundreds of thousands of forced laborers dying in a single construction project. Rolling Eyes If you want to taste it, claim a refugee status in North Korea and live there for some time.

    The goal of every country should be improve the life of his citizens, all not just 1%.
    From your avatar i understand you have no problem with a governmant be a puppet.
    The hundreds of thousands of billions that Stalin kill and next eat...is just Nazi propaganda, that the Americans in the cold war repeat and exagerate.
    North Korea is a social fascist dictatership, i will not go there, but maybe you can made a tourism trip to Saudia Arabia or Somalia, it should be nice.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  dino00 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:38 pm

    Portuguese irony - I love it!

    That means a lot to me- Portuguese irony

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:04 pm

    dino00 wrote:
    As Sa'iqa wrote:Shocked Rolling Eyes 
    So in your opinion the goal of every country should not be maximizing it's prosperity but... not being a puppet. Even if it means hundreds of thousands of forced laborers dying in a single construction project. Rolling Eyes If you want to taste it, claim a refugee status in North Korea and live there for some time.

    The goal of every country should be improve the life of his citizens, all not just 1%.
    From your avatar i understand you have no problem with a governmant be a puppet.
    The hundreds of thousands of billions that Stalin kill and next eat...is just Nazi propaganda, that the Americans in the cold war repeat and exagerate.
    North Korea is a social fascist dictatership, i will not go there, but maybe you can made a tourism trip to Saudia Arabia or Somalia, it should be nice.
    What 1%? An unskilled laborer in the US was richer and had more freedom than even high ranking party members in the USSR. Even the land farmed by Soviet peasants did not belong to them but to the state. Countries that have a highly developed protection of private property are far more prosperous than countries where everything belongs to everyone or, in other words, no one possesses anything.

    It was the Soviet Union where the rich owned everything. Pretty much the entire country belonged to a group of maybe a few dozen top party members and a typical person from lower social strata had absolutely no chance of becoming rich on their own. Even apartments that people lived in didn't belong to them but "to the people" which de facto meant, to the state. The US was great not because all people were equally poor... The US was great because everyone who came there could live as they please, work as they please and earn as much money as they want to. That's why that country is filled with stories of people catapulting themselves from rags to riches while the Ssoviet Union was full of stories of millions of people killed just because they disagreed with the policies of commie lunatics.

    AIG from mp.net knows more about this than I... If anything, ask him.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  dino00 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:34 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:
    dino00 wrote:
    As Sa'iqa wrote:Shocked Rolling Eyes 
    So in your opinion the goal of every country should not be maximizing it's prosperity but... not being a puppet. Even if it means hundreds of thousands of forced laborers dying in a single construction project. Rolling Eyes If you want to taste it, claim a refugee status in North Korea and live there for some time.

    The goal of every country should be improve the life of his citizens, all not just 1%.
    From your avatar i understand you have no problem with a governmant be a puppet.
    The hundreds of thousands of billions that Stalin kill and next eat...is just Nazi propaganda, that the Americans in the cold war repeat and exagerate.
    North Korea is a social fascist dictatership, i will not go there, but maybe you can made a tourism trip to Saudia Arabia or Somalia, it should be nice.

    An unskilled laborer in the US was richer and had more freedom than even high ranking party members in the USSR.

    It was the Soviet Union where the rich owned everything. Pretty much the entire country belonged to a group of maybe a few dozen top party members.

    What of the above theorys is your truth, can´t be both.

    That's why that country is filled with stories of people catapulting themselves from rags to riches while the Ssoviet Union was full of stories of millions of people killed just because they disagreed with the policies of commie lunatics.

    The American dream... what a beautiful... if you work 25 hours a day 8 days a week 3 jobs, don´t eat,drink as litle as possible, in 40 years you earn money to send your childrens to college to be as dumb as the fathers, in debt as the fathers, be foolished as the fathers and follow the cicle.
    Work hard sniper 

    AIG from mp.net knows more about this than I... If anything, ask him.

    From what i read about your posts, not only in this topic i have nothing to learn from AIG.
    From what i read mp.net is a source to nothing.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  TR1 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:59 pm

    dino00 wrote:Embarassed Nonsense everywere...
    If the whites had won russia would be a puppet regime.
    Stalin was the best Soviet president and the people loved him, he gave the poors the best conditions in the world, USSR defeat nazi Germany, was not the cold or the Americans or whatever was the genius of Stalin and the great people of USSR.
    Have Stalin not been murdered and i can´t dream what a country will Soviet Union became.
    There is not Stalinism that doesn´t exist.
    Soviet Union was broken by people in the communist party pretending to be communists and...yes by the imperialists.
    All the things that TRI said was rubish.  

    Lol.

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    Re: If the White Army had won?

    Post  TR1 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:00 pm

    As Sa'iqa wrote:
    dino00 wrote:
    As Sa'iqa wrote:Shocked Rolling Eyes 
    So in your opinion the goal of every country should not be maximizing it's prosperity but... not being a puppet. Even if it means hundreds of thousands of forced laborers dying in a single construction project. Rolling Eyes If you want to taste it, claim a refugee status in North Korea and live there for some time.

    The goal of every country should be improve the life of his citizens, all not just 1%.
    From your avatar i understand you have no problem with a governmant be a puppet.
    The hundreds of thousands of billions that Stalin kill and next eat...is just Nazi propaganda, that the Americans in the cold war repeat and exagerate.
    North Korea is a social fascist dictatership, i will not go there, but maybe you can made a tourism trip to Saudia Arabia or Somalia, it should be nice.
    What 1%? An unskilled laborer in the US was richer and had more freedom than even high ranking party members in the USSR. Even the land farmed by Soviet peasants did not belong to them but to the state. Countries that have a highly developed protection of private property are far more prosperous than countries where everything belongs to everyone or, in other words, no one possesses anything.

    It was the Soviet Union where the rich owned everything. Pretty much the entire country belonged to a group of maybe a few dozen top party members and a typical person from lower social strata had absolutely no chance of becoming rich on their own. Even apartments that people lived in didn't belong to them but "to the people" which de facto meant, to the state. The US was great not because all people were equally poor... The US was great because everyone who came there could live as they please, work as they please and earn as much money as they want to. That's why that country is filled with stories of people catapulting themselves from rags to riches while the Ssoviet Union was full of stories of millions of people killed just because they disagreed with the policies of commie lunatics.

    AIG from mp.net knows more about this than I... If anything, ask him.

    AIG is an idiot.
    He is opposite side of the nonsense dino00 believes.

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