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    Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:00 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:


    Is news of few days ago that the Norwegian Kongsberg "Naval Strike Missile" has been selected as the future cruise missile selected for this US class of ships attempting to apply the "distributed lethality" concept (large cruise missile initialization and separation from ships of similar tonnage, in particular Буян-М one, is an incredibly complex feat that US engineers have to still to master) ,anyone can easily understand the crushing difference, even under a strategical, not merely tactical point of view, with a Буян-М armed with Калибр.

    I believe that is not necessary, for what said until now, point out how the idea of barges with high number of offensive weapons would contradict the basis trend of medern naval requirements and doctrine, producing the effects opposites of what previously highlighted : substantial reduction of the survivability of the sea-based offensive pontential and the facilitation of the enemy ISR efforts.

    LCS and Buyan has different tasks arent they ? To me is  has little sense to keep building Buyans  since 22800 i already there.






    Hole wrote:But would violate the INF treaty so max. range of 500km.

    Cancel the purpose-build barges. Just use the containers on river ships.

    update software in existing missiles is simpler inst it? Anyway Kiznahls will take roles in point attacks in 2000 radius
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  Hole on Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:12 pm

    As long as the INF treaty is there you can´t just put long-range cruise missiles on land. My idea with the barges or container on river ships was an answer to glorious mike who wanted more missiles.

    Hypersonic missiles are a different topic. If the russians want to piss on "our friends and partners" in the west they cpuld just put some Zircons or a Version of the Kinzhal on trucks. No mention of hypersonic missiles in the INF treaty. Twisted Evil
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:30 pm

    Hole wrote:

    No mention of hypersonic missiles in the INF treaty. Twisted Evil

    No.

    Anything (Ballistic, cruise, sonic, hypersonic, parabolic, trumponic, melancholic etc.) that has a range from 500km to 5,500km is banned to be placed on land by the INF treaty.

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    Isos

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  Isos on Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:39 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    Hole wrote:

    No mention of hypersonic missiles in the INF treaty. Twisted Evil

    No.

    Anything (Ballistic, cruise, sonic, hypersonic, parabolic, trumponic, melancholic etc.) that has a range from 500km to 5,500km is banned to be placed on land by the INF treaty.


    Deployed.


    Those kalibr with 2500km range before going in ths ships are made and moved on land. You can stock them on a naval base and say it's for the ships but the first day just put them on truck.

    Russia won't care about INF if war starts against USA. Same with US vls in Romania. The first day of a war they can just send some tomahawks inside that were stocked " for ship use only". There is no modification to do. Justload them in their tubes.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:01 pm

    Isos wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:
    Hole wrote:

    No mention of hypersonic missiles in the INF treaty. Twisted Evil

    No.

    Anything (Ballistic, cruise, sonic, hypersonic, parabolic, trumponic, melancholic etc.) that has a range from 500km to 5,500km is banned to be placed on land by the INF treaty.


    Deployed.


    Those kalibr with 2500km range before going in ths ships are made and moved on land. You can stock them on a naval base and say it's for the ships but the first day just put them on truck.

    Russia won't care about INF if war starts against USA. Same with US vls in Romania. The first day of a war they can just send some tomahawks inside that were stocked " for ship use only". There is no modification to do. Justload them in their tubes.

    Agreed.
    My choice of word was incorrect.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:09 pm

    Hole wrote:As long as the INF treaty is there you can´t just put long-range cruise missiles on land. My idea with the barges or container on river ships was an answer to glorious mike who wanted more missiles.

    Not hypersonic but aeroballistic. Avangard/Rubezh is hypersonic but still ballistic. Kiznah, or Kh-50nor GUZR are not into those categories Smile And USA wants INF dead so INF is in fact dead. I am sure Russians ar prepared.
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  Hole on Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:54 pm

    The INF treaty only bans ballistic or cruise missiles. It doesn´t matter of a hypersonic missile flies a semi-ballistic trajectory or could count as a cruise missile. It is not in the text of the treaty. This is typical thinking of the people in Washington. Lawyers that put every word under scrutiny if it helps their task. Like "enhanced interrogation" instead of torture. Russia should just start and do the same.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:57 pm


    Guys knock it off with containers, barges and treaties, there are separate topics for all 3 angry

    hoom

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  hoom on Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:41 am

    The INF treaty only bans ballistic or cruise missiles. It doesn´t matter of a hypersonic missile flies a semi-ballistic trajectory or could count as a cruise missile. It is not in the text of the treaty.
    Yes it says nothing about speed, a Hypersonic missile that uses aerodynamic lift would be a Cruise Missile, if it doesn't use lift its a Ballistic missile.
    INF treaty definition wrote:For the purposes of this Treaty:

    1. The term "ballistic missile" means a missile that has a ballistic trajectory over most of its flight path. The term "ground-launched ballistic missile (GLBM)" means a ground-launched ballistic missile that is a weapon-delivery vehicle.

    2. The term "cruise missile" means an unmanned, self-propelled vehicle that sustains flight through the use of aerodynamic lift over most of its flight path. The term "ground-launched cruise missile (GLCM)" means a ground-launched cruise missile that is a weapon-delivery vehicle.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:17 pm

    hoom wrote:
    INF treaty definition wrote:For the purposes of this Treaty:

    1. The term "ballistic missile" means a missile that has a ballistic trajectory over most of its flight path. The term "ground-launched ballistic missile (GLBM)" means a ground-launched ballistic missile that is a weapon-delivery vehicle.

    2. The term "cruise missile" means an unmanned, self-propelled vehicle that sustains flight through the use of aerodynamic lift over most of its flight path. The term "ground-launched cruise missile (GLCM)" means a ground-launched cruise missile that is a weapon-delivery vehicle.

    then

    1) Kinzhal is not GLBM

    2) armed drones are withing definition of cruise missiles


    lol1 lol1 lol1
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  Hole on Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:23 pm

    In the end it doesn´t matter if they are included or not. The Trumpster will scrap the INF treaty (the idiots in congress already past a bill in that regard), because the "friends and partners" think they would have an advantage. Boy, will they be surprised. Twisted Evil

    hoom

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  hoom on Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:00 am

    At Sevastopol with radars reconnected already


    hoom

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:50 pm

    All done.

    Back in the thread I was hunting around for close up pics to prove the mast was demountable & came to the conclusion that they weren't actually easily demountable, I'm pleased to be proven completely wrong pwnd

    hoom

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  hoom on Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:19 am

    Well so much for guarding the World Cup, they are out the Bosphorus Suspect



    Combat stars for Kalibr launches?


    hoom

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  hoom on Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:45 pm

    12th Buyan-M to be laid down on 12th July
    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%97%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B412/
    google translate wrote:On Thursday, July 12, at the Zelenodolsk plant named after Gorky, part of the Ak Bars shipbuilding corporation, a solemn ceremony of laying the twelfth small missile ship of project 21631 "Buyan-M" will take place. This was announced on Tuesday, July 10, in the press service of the enterprise.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  Isos on Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:09 pm

    hoom wrote:12th Buyan-M to be laid down on 12th July
    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%97%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B412/
    google translate wrote:On Thursday, July 12, at the Zelenodolsk plant named after Gorky, part of the Ak Bars shipbuilding corporation, a solemn ceremony of laying the twelfth small missile ship of project 21631 "Buyan-M" will take place. This was announced on Tuesday, July 10, in the press service of the enterprise.

    What for ? They moved on karakurt, why keep building this outdated ship ?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:14 pm

    Isos wrote:
    hoom wrote:12th Buyan-M to be laid down on 12th July
    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%97%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B412/
    google translate wrote:On Thursday, July 12, at the Zelenodolsk plant named after Gorky, part of the Ak Bars shipbuilding corporation, a solemn ceremony of laying the twelfth small missile ship of project 21631 "Buyan-M" will take place. This was announced on Tuesday, July 10, in the press service of the enterprise.

    What for ? They moved on karakurt, why keep building this outdated ship ?

    For it's original purpose: rivers and Caspian Sea

    Just because Buyans are now used to fill the numbers of Black Sea and Baltic fleets does not mean they will stay there forever

    Once Karakurts​ are delivered Buyans will be going back to their original posts and I think that there will be lot more than three of them in Caspian, that place is too good of a location to throw missiles across Mid East from safe location

    Several will stay in Black Sea Fleet for convenience sake and because Azov Sea is really shallow


    hoom

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  hoom on Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:24 am

    What for ? They moved on karakurt, why keep building this outdated ship ?
    Because there is an existing contract.
    Because Buyan-M is one combat ship thats been able to be put out consistently pretty fast & its better to keep building something thats been humming along than to change to a new type.
    Because its rumored the last 3 will be upgraded version with Pantsir-M.
    Because there is plenty of need for shallow water ops.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:28 am

    hoom wrote:
    What for ? They moved on karakurt, why keep building this outdated ship ?
    Because there is an existing contract.
    Because Buyan-M is one combat ship thats been able to be put out consistently pretty fast & its better to keep building something thats been humming along than to change to a new type.
    Because its rumored the last 3 will be upgraded version with Pantsir-M.
    Because there is plenty of need for shallow water ops.

    Karakurt are able to do this in better way. They can also go further in open ocean.

    Contract could have been changed for a karakurt with no problem. That was the initial plan, replacing small units with karakurt.

    They also have few patrol boats with uksk vls for shallow waters.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:34 am

    Several will stay in Black Sea Fleet for convenience sake and because Azov Sea is really shallow

    Who cares about this sea ? They can control it with much smaller ships than buyan. Ukraine navy is not a threat. The other navies can't go inside because you need a small boat so there is no big threat.

    walle83

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  walle83 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:28 am

    If a vessel has been laid down it should be finished. This is just the thing Russia has problems with, comitment and long term planning.
    What if in a few years a new project comes along that is "better" then the Karakurts, will they stop building them to?

    This is such a waist of money and time. And Russia desperatly needs more naval vessels.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  hoom on Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:00 pm

    Another reason to complete the order is traditionally you want ships in multiples of 3: 1 in dock/repair, 1 in training/workup, 1 available/on missions.
    12 total gives option for 2 squadrons of 6* or 1 squadron of 6* & 2 groups of 3*.
    IMO they have a place in Baltic, BSF & Caspian so maybe even 3 groups of 4*.

    Nameplate Stavropol


    Possibly first official confirmation of Pantsir-M upgrade http://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=485789
    Interfax-AVN was told in the Department of Information and Mass Communications of the Russian Defense Ministry on Thursday.
    "The ship is armed with the Caliber-NK missile system, the Pantsir-M air defense complex, and artillery armament," the report said.

    **taking as excuse to repost my crappy photoshop**
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:15 pm


    Moral of the story: finish what you started.

    These are fine boats that have proven themselves in war and as Pantsir situation shows they have very decent upgrade potential.

    Just imagine if they had this attitude with other ships they were building?

    Or at least if they made an effort to finish ones they started building instead of scraping them in favor of "promising new projects without foreign analogues" (that they never built anyway)
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    Luq man

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  Luq man on Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:08 pm

    Seventh serial Pr.21631 ship - "Orekhovo-Zuevo"
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    Luq man

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    Re: Project 21631: Buyan-M corvette

    Post  Luq man on Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:13 pm

    More images





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