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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  franco on Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:52 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:Are the tank numbers really that low? That's disappointing.  Does anyone know the armor values the tanks in service have?

    It would seem to be that there are between 13 -15,000 Russian tanks in use and storage. That would seem to break down to T-72 (60%), T-80 (25-30%) T-90 and T-64 making up the rest.

    Active units would be;
    2 Tank regiments and 3 Tank brigades each of 95 tanks = 495 total
    40 tank battalions in Motor Rifle and Coastal units. Most at 41 tanks with a few at 31. For this argument all at 41 tanks = 1640 total
    4 tank training regiments (@95 per) and 1 tank training battalion (@41 per) = 421 total
    Each tank unit carries around 10 older models for training and spares x 50 = 500 total
    12 Motor Rifle (@41 per) storage brigades and 1 Tank (@95 per) storage brigade = 587 total

    Grand total = 2135 front line, 421 training, 500 spares, 587 reserves = 3643 plus the rest in storage.


    NOTE: for those that think the front line number is small. Do some research and see how many active M1 Abram battalions (@58 per) are employed in the US Army and Marine Corp?


    Last edited by franco on Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  VladimirSahin on Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:24 pm

    thanks for explaining,  Conscripts really did use 200 tanks that bad?  That doesn't sound right to me.  Were they not trained to use them...
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  franco on Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:30 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:thanks for explaining,  Conscripts really did use 200 tanks that bad?  That doesn't sound right to me.  Were they not trained to use them...

    We are talking the first production model in the mid-90's. There may also have been some design and manufacturing problems that they didn't want known, as they were trying to sell the tank to the Indians. So the poor conscripts took the heat, but who really knows. They must be in pretty bad shape or you would have thought that they would have been the first tanks refurbished.
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  VladimirSahin on Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:26 pm

    They probably didn't have enough funding for some parts during the 90s and built those batches with missing parts... And when the tankers started using it the way it was intended the tanks of course got messed up.
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    George1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:32 pm

    franco wrote:
    George1 wrote:Can anyone give us info about how many battle tanks are in service now with Russian ground forces?

    T-90:~500
    T-80:~100
    T-72B2/B3:~750
    T-72B/BA:~1,200

    The only unit that for sure still uses the T-80BV is the 18th MGA division, totals would include Coastal units under Navy control. Only a couple hundred T-80 were modernized, so rest would be in reserve. As far as I'm aware there were around 7-8,000 total T-72B's produced, so would expect that to be the cut off point for reserves.

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?99988-Russian-Photos-(updated-on-regular-basis)&p=7549164&viewfull=1#post7549164

    4th Guards Kantemirovskaya Tank Division with T-80 also. Only for Training?
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    franco

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    Russian Tank Force

    Post  franco on Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:43 pm

    franco wrote:"thanks for the numbers. What is MGA? Guards Tank Division??"

    Machine Gun Artillery - Coastal Defense unit guarding the Kuriles.

    Further to my figures, the T-80's figure could be 100 -200 higher depending on how many brigades have still not switched over. There are 3-4 MR/TK brigades that I have not seen confirmed. Of course this would result in a corresponding lower T-72B total. Another factor to consider is that Russian tank battalions generally keep an extra 10 older models around for training and spares. That would add another 500 to the total.

    I qualified my first comment with this one ^^.
    The 4th Tank brigade now division was one of the 4 units that I was not sure if they had switched over as planned. And it appears that they didn't by this and other information that I have seen since. Still not sure what type of organization that these two divisions are to end up with and how advanced they are in obtaining that. Rumors are 2 regiments and SOP is to keep the same type of equipment in each unit as possible. So at least 95 if not 190 T-80's added to the total and less T-72's.
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  franco on Sat May 16, 2015 10:01 pm

    UPDATED TANK TOTALS

    ~ 55 tank battalions in the combat units of the Ground and Coastal Forces
    ~ 10 tank battalions in the training centers

    ~ 725 T-72BA  (~ 16 battalions)
    ~ 50 T-72B1 (~ 1 battalion)
    ~ 360 T-72B3 (~ 8 battalions)
    ~ 400 T-80U (~ 9 battalions)*
    ~ 150 T-80BV (~ 3 battalions)*
    ~ 180 T-90 (~ 4 battalions)*
    ~ 315 T-90A (~ 7 battalions)

    This would leave ~ 17 battalions with the T-72B (~ 750)

    NOTES - The T-80's were all to have been withdrawn from service by 2015. It apparently was decided to keep the latest model (T-80U) and the few (T-80BV) that had been upgraded prior to the decision to phase the tank out, until the T-14 replaces.
             - It has been reported by different sources that the T-90's are in storage. If so the T-72B totals would be higher. Hopefully the T-90AM upgrade is for those tanks.
             - Tank battalions are either 3-companies (31 tanks) or 4-companies (41 tanks). Old Soviet Army procedures had another company of older tanks kept for training and spares. It appears that figure is probably down to 3-4 spares per battalion.
             - Tank brigades and regiments use the 3-company battalion while Motor Rifle brigades and regiments use the 4-company battalion. There are a few exceptions.


    2015 Equipment Acquisition plans are for around 300 Tanks, 20 will be T-14's for testing & evaluation purposes. The remainder are to be T-72B3's and T-90AM's with the breakdown not announced yet.
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  VladimirSahin on Sat May 16, 2015 10:14 pm

    Very dissapointed from low numbers, It appears the US has the advantage when it comes to tanks by a lot. I mean come on we only have 360 T-72B3? So assuming the T-90s have thermals and advanced FCS, And of course T-72B3s have them too that leaves 855 equipped with modern up to date optics... While the T-80Us have a decent FCS. While all US tanks in service have a advanced FCS and thermals. I my self didn't want to believe we lose to US in terms of tank forces but I think we do. If I am incorrect please someone fix it because its disappointing to see these numbers. While I am on this topic does anyone have the inventory list on how much tanks are in service with the US?
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 16, 2015 10:30 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:Very dissapointed from low numbers, It appears the US has the advantage when it comes to tanks by a lot. I mean come on we only have 360 T-72B3? So assuming the T-90s  have thermals and advanced FCS, And of course T-72B3s have them too that leaves 855 equipped with modern up to date optics... While the T-80Us have a decent FCS. While all US tanks in service have a advanced FCS and thermals. I my self didn't want to believe we lose to US in terms of tank forces but I think we do. If I am incorrect please someone fix it because its disappointing to see these numbers. While I am on this topic does anyone have the inventory list on how much tanks are in service with the US?

    Unfortunately that seems to be the case.  M1 inventory seems to be higher than Russia's total inventory of tanks in service as well.

    Pretty pathetic really on Russia's end.  With having an armed forces roughly in same size as US, they have a lot less of nearly everything than US. Although, Franko's numbers could be off by quite a bit. He didn't specify the sources.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Sat May 16, 2015 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 16, 2015 10:56 pm

    http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail-page-2.asp?armor_id=161

    According to this, 2015, Russia operates 930 T-90's. If this is the case, then how come Franco's numbers are not even close?
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:05 pm

    sepheronx wrote:http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail-page-2.asp?armor_id=161

    According to this, 2015, Russia operates 930 T-90's.  If this is the case, then how come Franco's numbers are not even close?

    Because I'm old and wise Very Happy

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-294.html

    The IISS World Military Balance has Russia operating around ~350 T-90's along with a number of experts. The link I gave you like to track production totals amongst other things.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  Werewolf on Sat May 16, 2015 11:08 pm

    Russia has over 3000-4000 T-72B not just 50, those numbers are far to low. Russia's stock along with stored and conserved tanks is to 22.500 tanks, cutting of T-55/62 models from that it leaves russia with 16.500 tanks of T-72,T-80,T-90.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 16, 2015 11:09 pm

    Interesting, wonder why the high degree of differences in numbers regarding reports.

    That said, they have not gained any new T-90 tanks since 2011/2? Ouch. Yet their numbers of T-72B3's are pathetically low since they would have had 2 - 3 years to acquire more of them. So tank purchases has been VERY low in last 4 years.

    I wonder why? Unless they are gearing up for new models and simply holding out till then.
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:18 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:Very dissapointed from low numbers, It appears the US has the advantage when it comes to tanks by a lot. I mean come on we only have 360 T-72B3? So assuming the T-90s  have thermals and advanced FCS, And of course T-72B3s have them too that leaves 855 equipped with modern up to date optics... While the T-80Us have a decent FCS. While all US tanks in service have a advanced FCS and thermals. I my self didn't want to believe we lose to US in terms of tank forces but I think we do. If I am incorrect please someone fix it because its disappointing to see these numbers. While I am on this topic does anyone have the inventory list on how much tanks are in service with the US?

    The US Army and Marine Corps between them have only 17 active tank battalions with 58 tanks per (~ 1000)
    Their strength is having almost the same number of trained National Guard and Army Reserve tank battalions ready to go at a short notice plus having predisposed equipment around the global only requiring the personnel to be flown in.


    Last edited by franco on Sun May 17, 2015 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:22 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Interesting, wonder why the high degree of differences in numbers regarding reports.

    That said, they have not gained any new T-90 tanks since 2011/2?  Ouch.  Yet their numbers of T-72B3's are pathetically low since they would have had 2 - 3 years to acquire more of them.  So tank purchases has been VERY low in last 4 years.

    I wonder why?  Unless they are gearing up for new models and simply holding out till then.

    The 360 T-72B3's and 50 T-72B1's are over the last 3 years as the final T-90A's arrived. I think they expected the T-14's to arrive sooner.
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:27 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Russia has over 3000-4000 T-72B not just 50, those numbers are far to low. Russia's stock along with stored and conserved tanks is to 22.500 tanks, cutting of T-55/62 models from that it leaves russia with 16.500 tanks of T-72,T-80,T-90.

    There are about 7-8,000 T-72B's of all types including those mentioned. The total of all tanks including those in storage would be around 15,000 presently. The 50 total was for the T-72B1 and T-72B in active units would be in the 700-900 range depending on the T-90 status.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 16, 2015 11:29 pm

    franco wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Interesting, wonder why the high degree of differences in numbers regarding reports.

    That said, they have not gained any new T-90 tanks since 2011/2?  Ouch.  Yet their numbers of T-72B3's are pathetically low since they would have had 2 - 3 years to acquire more of them.  So tank purchases has been VERY low in last 4 years.

    I wonder why?  Unless they are gearing up for new models and simply holding out till then.

    The 360 T-72B3's and 50 T-72B1's are over the last 3 years as the final T-90A's arrived. I think they expected the T-14's to arrive sooner.

    Highly possible, because Uralvagonzavod can produce a lot more than that in a single year (upwards to 1000 tanks per year).

    Probably the case, and they were going on small upgrades till then (predicted only 70+ B3 upgrades in 2015.....). So either they were waiting on new tanks, or something else. Because they said they wanted 2300 Armata's by 2020, but that isn't going to happen as Armata wont start trials till next year and I doubt they will go for full on production of the companies capacity for 4 years. So who knows how much money that is being allocated for procurement, is being stored till Armata is released.

    But you would think they would simply move the significant amount of stored tanks out of storage and in use till then. Because on warfare.be, they speculate about 8000 T-72 tanks are in storage.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  Werewolf on Sat May 16, 2015 11:34 pm

    I really hope they get more T-90A1 in production or maybe even some T-90AM as simply as it is the T-14 isn't finished and it will cost a shit load and they won't have 2300 Armata's untill 2025 so i guess they will extent the T-14 deadline further and buy T-90A/AM as current gap filler.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 16, 2015 11:37 pm

    Werewolf wrote:I really hope they get more T-90A1 in production or maybe even some T-90AM as simply as it is the T-14 isn't finished and it will cost a shit load and they won't have 2300 Armata's untill 2025 so i guess they will extent the T-14 deadline further and buy T-90A/AM as current gap filler.

    Maybe a T-90AM upgrade (something less costly but more modest) for all T-72A and b types that are in reserve/service. Something like a large amount that would be ready for active service and can be stored when Armata is released, or at least in active service along side Armata and quick service, while all other models are thrown in reserves.

    Because the tank counts are very low in active service. M1 active service is apparently higher, or maybe I am reading it wrong. But having a large amount is beneficial.
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:43 pm

    Werewolf wrote:I really hope they get more T-90A1 in production or maybe even some T-90AM as simply as it is the T-14 isn't finished and it will cost a shit load and they won't have 2300 Armata's untill 2025 so i guess they will extent the T-14 deadline further and buy T-90A/AM as current gap filler.



    There will be another ~300 T-72B3 and T-90AM's this year and most likely for the next two. The Army has stated they will be receiving 100 T-14's over the first 3 years for testing plus training and they seem to be on the 300 per year production thing right now.

    EDIT: this would give around 1600 T-72B3, T-90A and T-90AM's plus about 700 T-14's by the end of 2020 for a total of 2300 modern tanks.


    Last edited by franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:47 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:I really hope they get more T-90A1 in production or maybe even some T-90AM as simply as it is the T-14 isn't finished and it will cost a shit load and they won't have 2300 Armata's untill 2025 so i guess they will extent the T-14 deadline further and buy T-90A/AM as current gap filler.

    Maybe a T-90AM upgrade (something less costly but more modest) for all T-72A and b types that are in reserve/service.  Something like a large amount that would be ready for active service and can be stored when Armata is released, or at least in active service along side Armata and quick service, while all other models are thrown in reserves.

    Because the tank counts are very low in active service.  M1 active service is apparently higher, or maybe I am reading it wrong.  But having a large amount is beneficial.

    There would be around 3,000 active Russian tanks verses 1,200 active American tanks including training units but not reserve or storage units.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 16, 2015 11:48 pm

    franco wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:I really hope they get more T-90A1 in production or maybe even some T-90AM as simply as it is the T-14 isn't finished and it will cost a shit load and they won't have 2300 Armata's untill 2025 so i guess they will extent the T-14 deadline further and buy T-90A/AM as current gap filler.

    Maybe a T-90AM upgrade (something less costly but more modest) for all T-72A and b types that are in reserve/service.  Something like a large amount that would be ready for active service and can be stored when Armata is released, or at least in active service along side Armata and quick service, while all other models are thrown in reserves.

    Because the tank counts are very low in active service.  M1 active service is apparently higher, or maybe I am reading it wrong.  But having a large amount is beneficial.

    There would be around 3,000 active Russian tanks verses 1,200 active American tanks including training units but not reserve or storage units.

    How many are in storage total? Would you happen to know?

    I guess the 300 per year idea is to make sure they get some modern tanks while at the same time, keep the plant working and people paid. Smart idea I suppose.
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:53 pm

    A lot of old tanks are now gone. The total of active and stored tanks would be in the 13,500 -15,500 range.

    EDIT: see my edit above to werewolf.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 17, 2015 12:27 pm

    I would think the best option would be to adapt the new equipment going in the T-14 and T-15 into upgrades for the T-90AM and BMP-3M respectively so they can start producing those components now and there will be some parts unification between operational vehicles... it should also improve performance of upgraded vehicles and increase production numbers for components improving commonality and hopefully reducing costs and allowing operational testing to get the kinks out of the systems sooner...
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    franco

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    Tank totals

    Post  franco on Mon May 18, 2015 2:04 pm

    Related to the Tank Totals, these are the amounts listed by the IISS in their 2015 World Military Balance.

    MBT 2,600: 1,300 T-72B/BA; 400 T-72B3; 550 T-80BV/U; 350
    T-90/T-90A; (17,500 in store: 2,800 T-55; 2,500 T-62; 2,000
    T-64A/B; 7,000 T-72/T-72A/B; 3,000 T-80B/BV/U; 200 T-90)

    plus another 200 T-72/T-80's in the Navy Coastal Commands.

    The Russians announced several years back that all T-55's and T-62's were to be removed and scrapped.

    My figures vary slightly to this.

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