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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

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    Asf

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Asf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:31 pm

    plus 1 regiment (18th MG div)

    plus 2 regiments from Kantemirovskaya division

    Still we don't the exact numbers per model


    Last edited by Asf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:47 pm

    Asf wrote:Still we don't the exact numbers per model

    No, and probably never will. But the fun is in the searching in the interim  Smile 

    Asf

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Asf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:58 pm

    plus 1 regiment (18th MG div)

    I don't know about Tamanskaya motor rifle division, but there are 2 regiments from Kantemirovskaya tank division instead of 1 tank brigade. Btw they are 2th and 4th divisions, what is a 18th division?
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:06 pm

    Asf wrote:
    plus 1 regiment (18th MG div)

    I don't know about Tamanskaya motor rifle division, but there are 2 regiments from Kantemirovskaya tank division instead of 1 tank brigade. Btw they are 2th and 4th divisions, what is a 18th division?

    I have yet to see any proof that there was any actual increase in size of these two "divisions" being increased from "brigades" other then their Recon element increased from 200 to 500 men. Believe it was strictly to restore their historical names and honours. The 18th MG division is the unit defending the Kuriles.

    Vann7

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:40 am

    Zivo wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    Does russian MOD have said how many armata main battle tanks they will order for the army?

    The last figure I've heard was 2,500 Armata's in various configurations. I would guess they're aiming for around 500 MBT's over the next decade. Who really knows though...

    Thats actually not a bad number.. They should also keep their T-72s i think they have about 10,000 and upgrade/reinforce them.. They can be very useful in urban /guerrilla warfare ,as support tanks.. What i would also like to see is also many orders of Koalition -SV and Iskanders..

    You know how many Iskanders Russia have in inventory at the moment and how many ordered.?
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:19 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    Does russian MOD have said how many armata main battle tanks they will order for the army?

    The last figure I've heard was 2,500 Armata's in various configurations. I would guess they're aiming for around 500 MBT's over the next decade. Who really knows though...

    Thats actually not a bad number.. They should also keep their T-72s i think they have about 10,000 and upgrade/reinforce them.. They can be very useful in urban /guerrilla warfare ,as support tanks.. What i would also like to see is also many orders of Koalition -SV and Iskanders..  

    You know how many Iskanders Russia have in inventory at the moment and how many ordered.?

    No, Russia does not have anywhere near 10,000 operational, reserve, or even stored in barely decent condition T-72s. Not at this point.

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    Mike E

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Mike E on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:24 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    Does russian MOD have said how many armata main battle tanks they will order for the army?

    The last figure I've heard was 2,500 Armata's in various configurations. I would guess they're aiming for around 500 MBT's over the next decade. Who really knows though...

    Thats actually not a bad number.. They should also keep their T-72s i think they have about 10,000 and upgrade/reinforce them.. They can be very useful in urban /guerrilla warfare ,as support tanks.. What i would also like to see is also many orders of Koalition -SV and Iskanders..  

    You know how many Iskanders Russia have in inventory at the moment and how many ordered.?

    No, Russia does not have anywhere near 10,000 operational, reserve, or even stored in barely decent condition T-72s. Not at this point.

    That number is way inflated, so you are correct... They could simply upgrade the T-72's to the B2 and B3 standards, while producing both the T-90 (of some variant, at a slower pace) and Armata. That would leave them with a rather powerful ground force without breaking the bank, and it *shouldn't* take much time either... They still have a large number of -72's in reserve, right?
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    Zivo

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Zivo on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:25 pm

    The bulk of the T-72's in service will likely remain in service for a long time, but will be upgraded. Which isn't a bad thing, considering NATO has the same plan for their MBT's. The clock is ticking down for the older reserve vehicles though, T-80's are also on the chopping block.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:29 pm

    Zivo wrote:The bulk of the T-72's in service will likely remain in service for a long time, but will be upgraded. Which isn't a bad thing, considering NATO has the same plan for their MBT's. The clock is ticking down for the older reserve vehicles though, T-80's are also on the clopping block.

    Which is a mistake IMO. Even given their vulnerabilities, they are very advanced even today.

    Instead of wearing out their life as quick as possilble (T-64s or spare T-72s could be used for that instead), they should be retired but placed into the reserve and kept in good condition; while T-64s should make their way into training units.
    T-62s, T-55/T-54s should be scrapped or converted into civil or utility vehicles same as the current plan calls for.

    That way, Russia would easily have a pool of advanced MBTs on top of the T-72 pool under active exploitation, and as T-64s would be used for training, tank crews will end up acquainted with a lot of the same features that are present in the T-80s. In times of high military tension, those T-80s could be rapidly mobilized and would be highly effective even without further modernisation.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Mike E on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:32 pm

    Zivo wrote:The bulk of the T-72's in service will likely remain in service for a long time, but will be upgraded. Which isn't a bad thing, considering NATO has the same plan for their MBT's. The clock is ticking down for the older reserve vehicles though, T-80's are also on the chopping block.
    Figured that, and it seems like a good option both economically and militarily... Why are the T-80's going to get chopped when the T-72 is technically older?- I've been wondering this for a while now, and it doesn't make much sense.... I'd like to them get upgraded to some sort of export spec and sold. I'm sure that there are potential buyers, why not?
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:38 pm

    T-80 was "rejected" because of high fuel consumption. Army has not changed its opinion since then. The vulnerability issue is wildly overplayed and not that much of a factor.

    There are so many T-72s left, that rationalizing the force to one (well, almost one) type makes sense. T-64s are ancient and pointless, there are enough T-72s for training. They have bee dumped several years back from training, for good reason.
    While I would like to see T-80 live out its life, especially with proliferation of T-72B3 keeping them around is hard to justify. They are even more pointless to keep in reserve IMO. T-72 is a much more suitable reserve or mobilization tank, especially given the kind of crews reserve units would get in wartime.
    With mostly T-72s, training, large scale technical support in theater, and spare cannibalization becomes easier. Presumably they do have enough spares built up that continuing T-80 operations for years, but I guess they really want to narrow it down to one type.

    T-62 and T-55 are gone.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:41 pm

    akd wrote:I just did.  He stopped updating that site a long time ago.

    Please feel free to provide an original source for the report if you don't think Fofanov's doubts raise concerns about its veracity.  Everything I can find on this report points back to Fofanov's website, except some vague references to the original source being a post in a Russian language forum.

    Fofanov and others have discussed the trials on Russian forums. The consensus is it is not reliable data, and sadly should be dismissed.

    Vympel

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vympel on Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:12 am

    Mike E wrote:
    Figured that, and it seems like a good option both economically and militarily... Why are the T-80's going to get chopped when the T-72 is technically older?

    That depends on what T-72 and what T-80 you're talking about. The T-80B series is not newer than the T-72B series by any significant degree. T-72Bs were built right up to the end of the USSR (and beyond I believe). The Russian force is clearly being rationalised to T-72B tanks - distinct from say T-72A tanks which you never see nowadays, and which are probably being exported to fight in Syria or something.

    EDIT: only a comparative handful of T-80Us exist. T-80UDs built in Ukraine have been withdrawn.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:58 am

    Vympel wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    Figured that, and it seems like a good option both economically and militarily... Why are the T-80's going to get chopped when the T-72 is technically older?

    That depends on what T-72 and what T-80 you're talking about. The T-80B series is not newer than the T-72B series by any significant degree. T-72Bs were built right up to the end of the USSR (and beyond I believe). The Russian force is clearly being rationalised to T-72B tanks - distinct from say T-72A tanks which you never see nowadays, and which are probably being exported to fight in Syria or something.

    EDIT: only a comparative handful of T-80Us exist. T-80UDs built in Ukraine have been withdrawn.
    No matter how you look at it, they are both of the same generation of MBT's. - If they retire some of the T-80's (in this case all of them) why not retire some T-72's along with it? I'm confused on why they'd retire the T-80 and not both when they are of the same age... The only explanation I can think of is that the T-72 is has more modified variants, but that's it...  The gas-guzzling problem could be fixed with a new, and/or upgraded engine and transmission etc.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:11 am

    Mike E wrote:
    No matter how you look at it, they are both of the same generation of MBT's. - If they retire some of the T-80's (in this case all of them) why not retire some T-72's along with it? I'm confused on why they'd retire the T-80 and not both when they are of the same age... The only explanation I can think of is that the T-72 is has more modified variants, but that's it...  The gas-guzzling problem could be fixed with a new, and/or upgraded engine and transmission etc.

    What part is confusing? The logic is rationalization of the tank fleet, that is basically it.
    Russia has more tanks that it needs, especially with increased emphasis on ready formations vs vast war stocks.
    Taking out parts of both tank fleets is pointless. You might as well get rid of one entirely and not complicate future operations. Simplifying your technical diversity is always a good thing.  

    There is no question of age- the T-80 is a fine tank (in fact you could easily argue it is better than T-72B without any upgrades). However the gas issue is there. Changing engine and transmission, well, you do not have a T-80 anymore, since it is very much designed to use a compact gas turbine. What other option is there, to buy 6TD from Ukraine Wink ? It is costly, there is no project to do so, and at the end of the day you might as well Kapremont a T-72 from storage (or even upgrade it, would probably cost no less then switching the T-80s turbine out) and slim your tank force down to one less vehicle.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:26 am

    TR1 wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    No matter how you look at it, they are both of the same generation of MBT's. - If they retire some of the T-80's (in this case all of them) why not retire some T-72's along with it? I'm confused on why they'd retire the T-80 and not both when they are of the same age... The only explanation I can think of is that the T-72 is has more modified variants, but that's it...  The gas-guzzling problem could be fixed with a new, and/or upgraded engine and transmission etc.

    What part is confusing? The logic is rationalization of the tank fleet, that is basically it.
    Russia has more tanks that it needs, especially with increased emphasis on ready formations vs vast war stocks.
    Taking out parts of both tank fleets is pointless. You might as well get rid of one entirely and not complicate future operations. Simplifying your technical diversity is always a good thing.  

    There is no question of age- the T-80 is a fine tank (in fact you could easily argue it is better than T-72B without any upgrades). However the gas issue is there. Changing engine and transmission, well, you do not have a T-80 anymore, since it is very much designed to use a compact gas turbine. What other option is there, to buy 6TD from Ukraine Wink ? It is costly, there is no project to do so, and at the end of the day you might as well Kapremont a T-72 from storage (or even upgrade it, would probably cost no less then switching the T-80s turbine out) and slim your tank force down to one less vehicle.
    I guess, it just seems counter intuitive to myself....
    "Too many? is true, but there can never be "too many in good shape" (or order).
    Simplifying is great, but simply throwing away tanks that run fine isn't... Like I said earlier, I'm sure that there are countries that would love to get their hands on a T-80 at bargain-bin prices. - They could give em' to Syria for all I care!
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:35 am

    Nobody wants to buy T-80. Well, ok. Maybe one or two countries do. Yemen has been the only one to buy used T-80s. A few nations bought T-80U.

    But the point is it has been barely pushed for export and with good reason. The gas turbine consumption. It is pricier to operate. T-72 has been the big export commodity for both Russia and Ukraine, as far as used tanks go.
    And we are not talking about them just taking fully functional tanks and cutting them up. They operate them until they run out of service life, then the plan is to get rid of them (though they seem to be soldiering on for now).

    So anyone looking to get the tank would have to pay to get it Kapremonted, and then deal with a vehicle fundamentally more expensive to run than T-72. Pointless to do, if they can just...get a T-72.
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    George1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  George1 on Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:47 am

    I have a question. Russian tank troops wear the standard Russian ground forces green beret or black beret??
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    Werewolf

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    I have a question. Russian tank troops wear the standard Russian ground forces green beret or black beret??

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:47 am

    George1 wrote:I have a question. Russian tank troops wear the standard Russian ground forces green beret or black beret??

    Black barret.

    Here russian tank crew from the Tank biathlon recieving golden tank trophey.

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    George1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  George1 on Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:47 am

    Can anyone give us info about how many battle tanks are in service now with Russian ground forces?

    T-90:
    T-80:
    T-72B2/B3:
    T-72:
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Kimppis on Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:43 pm

    Are they going to keep modernizing T-72s even after the Armata production starts? If my numbers are correct, now they have 700+ T90s, 700 modernized T-72s (previous post) and they are going to produce over 2000 Armatas/T-14/whatever by 2020. That would be close to 4000, and they probably continue building Armatas after 2020, right? In any case, impressive numbers.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:26 pm

    1.) There are less than 500 T-90s- and far from all of them are T-90As. Some are early T-90s from the 1990s.
    2.) There won't be anywhere near 2000 T-14s by 2020, let's be realistic. That might be the eventual goal but it is more long term.
    3.) They are going to continue with the T-72B3(?) modernization, but supposedly this upcoming year it will be the "Biathlon" model with the panoramic sight, new engine, transmission etc. I am mixed on this- the upgrade is fairly thorough but one wonders how expensive it is. Also they are paying for tanks that have essentially no improvement on protection from T-72s made in 1989...25 years ago.
    4.) Mind you they are withdrawing the T-80 from the inventory, so the "new" T-72s are not indicative of any increase in tank strength.

    By the time the Armata MBT numbers are filled out the oldest T-90s and T-72s will be ripe for withdrawal.
    Potentially there will be a large stock of used, cheap T-72s with a decent fire control system....especially if they can put a decent protection package on it, might be a good export item.
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    George1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:37 am

    TR1 wrote:1.) There are less than 500 T-90s- and far from all of them are T-90As. Some are early T-90s from the 1990s.
    2.) There won't be anywhere near 2000 T-14s by 2020, let's be realistic. That might be the eventual goal but it is more long term.
    3.) They are going to continue with the T-72B3(?) modernization, but supposedly this upcoming year it will be the "Biathlon" model with the panoramic sight, new engine, transmission etc. I am mixed on this- the upgrade is fairly thorough but one wonders how expensive it is. Also they are paying for tanks that have essentially no improvement on protection from T-72s made in 1989...25 years ago.
    4.) Mind you they are withdrawing the T-80 from the inventory, so the "new" T-72s are not indicative of any increase in tank strength.

    By the time the Armata MBT numbers are filled out the oldest T-90s and T-72s will be ripe for withdrawal.
    Potentially there will be a large stock of used, cheap T-72s with a decent fire control system....especially if they can put a decent protection package on it, might be a good export item.

    I think T-90s production should have been continued, at least until next year that production of armata will start
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Kimppis on Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:54 am

    Well, according to Wiki they have 900 T-90As as of 2014 (last time I checked it was around 700). I guess wiki sucks lol, but atleast 2 sources are included with that number. Question

    2300 sure is an impressive number, but according to an interview that was posted here like a month ago (?) that's what they are seriously planning, by 2020. And the re-armament program is on schedule atm, so... Not that I know anything about their tank production capability. Still, it would make perfect sense to have over 2000 new tanks when they are planning to re-equip 70% of the army as a whole.

    And yeah, T-80 is gone but they still had like 20k tanks left a few years ago... So if they can build 2300 T-14s and then have 2000+ additional T-90s + modernized T-72s, it will be an adequate tank fleet, even when you compare it to the likes of US and China, IMO. Both have something like 6000 MBTs each, IIRC.


    Last edited by Kimppis on Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Zivo

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Zivo on Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:27 am

    Kimppis wrote:

    2300 sure is an impressive number, but according to an interview that was posted here like a month ago (?) that's what they are seriously planning, by 2020. And the re-armament program is on schedule atm, so... Not that I know anything about their tank production capability. Still, it would make perfect sense to have over 2000 new thanks when they are planning to re-equip 70% of the army as a whole.


    Don't hold your breath. Armata is an ambitious project whose closest realistic analogue, the GCV program in the US, was canned earlier this year. Armata's more mature than the GCV, but these kind of modular fighting machines have complex development processes especially when implemented on such a large scale. There's going to be speedbumps along its path to procurement.

    If they manage to crank out half that number by 2020, I'll be ecstatic.

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