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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:32 am

    GarryB wrote:T-90 tanks still sell... there is a market for them.

    The purpose of the Armata tank is for high threat situations like downtown grozny in conflict.

    Probably less than 20% of the MBTs in Russia will be armata based because less than 20% of divisions will be armata based divisions.

    Most of them will be Kurganets or Boomerang or Typhoon based divisions or Brigades and therefore will have Kurganets, Boomerang, or Typhoon based MBTs.

    For those units that retain older vehicle types the T-90AM will be a useful upgrade... but the goal is to move to the new vehicles as quickly as possible for purposes of standardisation and compatibility... in which case the upgraded T-72s will allow for the new net centric communications systems to be carried by all MBTs and of course the new thermal sights will mean they can fight in the dark too... there will be differences and of course the T-90AM will be a better machine, but also a more expensive machine... which is a very bad feature for a stopgap vehicle.
    Ah, so out of the 2300 armata by 2020, there would be about 400 mbts(80 per year = t-90 levels:pale:)
    and equal number of bmpts.dunno 
    And I remember they want 1200 mbts so if we go by 80 per year they would make that number in 2030.
    @ above: Cr@p maybe that was posted before and I wasnt being attentive.unshaven 
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    GarryB

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    Regarding talk of the T-90AM being the future backbone of the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:59 am

    I am pretty sure I have talked about this before... from memory I based my numbers on the CFE agreement which limits Russia to about 6,000 MBTs.

    Yes I know CFE is dead, but Russia seemed happy with those sorts of numbers so I used them as a base.

    The first thing we need to do is work out the proportion of the forces... armata is not a MBT, so if we assume that the structure of forces will be 20% heavy brigades or divisions, and say 50% medium brigades/divisions, that would leave 30% light brigades and divisions.

    If we therefore further break it down that means 20% of MBTs will be armatas, 20% will be kurganets MBTs and 30% would be boomerangs and in the light MBTs 30% would be typhoon MBTs.

    That would mean about 2/3rds would be wheeled vehicles which would be lighter and more mobile on hard ground and roads and also cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate.

    20% of 6,000 is 1,200, so 1200 armata MBTs, 1,200 Kurganets-25 MBTs, and 1,800 boomerang MBTs and 1,800 typhoon MBTs.

    And I remember they want 1200 mbts so if we go by 80 per year they would make that number in 2030.

    Why do you think they can only produce 80 tanks per year?

    UVZ has the production capacity to build thousands of vehicles per year... it just hasn't had the orders or the money...


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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  VladimirSahin on Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:22 am

    Here with a question,  Does anyone know how much tanks are in service for example list of how much t-72b3 or t-72ba's ect ect.  And is there a some sort of way to see how what we have and how much kinda like a inventory?
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:43 am

    VladimirSahin wrote:Here with a question,  Does anyone know how much tanks are in service for example list of how much t-72b3 or t-72ba's ect ect.  And is there a some sort of way to see how what we have and how much kinda like a inventory?

    Apparently around 4,000 T-72B's were built for the Russian Army, of which 800-1,000 were T-72BA's. As of last year's end, around 300 had been modified to BM's, 150 to B2's and 300 to B3's.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:28 am

    Not sure where you are getting those numbers from.
    UVZ built over 20,000 T-72s from 1974 to 1990. Only 4000 T-72Bs in total? Much more IMO.
    Assuming all plans were met like reported, there were 370 T-72B3 upgraded from 2012-2013.
    T-72BA was upgraded in several different variants, but at best there are a couple hundred of them, less than B3 at this point.

    Asf

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Asf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:43 am

    It's around 1500 T-72B(BA, B3) in an active service now. And around 7000 T-72 of all modifications are in reserve. Exact numbers are classified actually
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:19 pm

    TR1 wrote:Not sure where you are getting those numbers from.
    UVZ built over 20,000 T-72s from 1974 to 1990. Only 4000 T-72Bs in total? Much more IMO.
    Assuming all plans were met like reported, there were 370 T-72B3 upgraded from 2012-2013.
    T-72BA was upgraded in several different variants, but at best there are a couple hundred of them, less than B3 at this point.  

    I'm afraid that I acquired those numbers from many different sources over time. I was never able to determine if the BA's were included in that 4,000 T-72B total, so it has potential to be 800-1,000 higher (I always go conservative). Remember that the B / BA were the last production models, so 20-25% would not be out of the realm of possibility. I'm comfortable with the breakdown of Modified tanks, there are plans and there is actual. Noticed the other day that getting ready for the biathlon, they had been upgrading both BM's and B2's to B3's standard to use in the competition. I would have used the funds to upgrade some B's first.


    Last edited by franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:25 pm

    Asf wrote:It's around 1500 T-72B(BA, B3) in an active service now. And around 7000 T-72 of all modifications are in reserve. Exact numbers are classified actually

    It would actually be almost twice that amount in active units as the T-80 has been completely withdrawn from service. The twice would include training units and spares kept with operational units.

    Asf

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Asf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:56 pm

    It would actually be almost twice that amount in active units as the T-80 has been completely withdrawn from service.

    Russia has around 40 motorised rifle brigades with one tank batallion (around 40 tanks). It's about 1500-1600 tanks. Plus a limited number of tanks in naval infantry and 4 tank brigades (or now 3 ar one brigade was converted into a division), but don't forget about T-90. It's around 2000 in the active service at all

    spares kept with operational units.

    They are technically in reserve

     training units

    Those can have older T-72 models btw
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:33 pm

    My info shows 37 tank battalions in brigades of which 8 are T-90A's. A normal Russian tank bn has 41 tanks plus an unit generally has another company of older versions used for training.
    This would equal 1189 primary + 290 training T-72's.
    There are 4 tank bdes plus 1 regiment (18th MG div) with 94 tanks per plus a training company per bn all T-72's.
    This would equal 470 primary + 150 training T-72's.
    There are 4 training tank regiments plus 2 bns of which 1 bn is T-90.
    This would equal 417 training T-72's.
    This would equal 2516 total T-72's. If you include the 13 Reserve bde tank bns then it goes above 3,000.



    Not trying to argue my friend, just sharing what information that I have. Only the Russian MoD has the correct answer... we hope  Wink 

    Asf

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Asf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:31 pm

    plus 1 regiment (18th MG div)

    plus 2 regiments from Kantemirovskaya division

    Still we don't the exact numbers per model


    Last edited by Asf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:47 pm

    Asf wrote:Still we don't the exact numbers per model

    No, and probably never will. But the fun is in the searching in the interim  Smile 

    Asf

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Asf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:58 pm

    plus 1 regiment (18th MG div)

    I don't know about Tamanskaya motor rifle division, but there are 2 regiments from Kantemirovskaya tank division instead of 1 tank brigade. Btw they are 2th and 4th divisions, what is a 18th division?
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:06 pm

    Asf wrote:
    plus 1 regiment (18th MG div)

    I don't know about Tamanskaya motor rifle division, but there are 2 regiments from Kantemirovskaya tank division instead of 1 tank brigade. Btw they are 2th and 4th divisions, what is a 18th division?

    I have yet to see any proof that there was any actual increase in size of these two "divisions" being increased from "brigades" other then their Recon element increased from 200 to 500 men. Believe it was strictly to restore their historical names and honours. The 18th MG division is the unit defending the Kuriles.

    Vann7

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:40 am

    Zivo wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    Does russian MOD have said how many armata main battle tanks they will order for the army?

    The last figure I've heard was 2,500 Armata's in various configurations. I would guess they're aiming for around 500 MBT's over the next decade. Who really knows though...

    Thats actually not a bad number.. They should also keep their T-72s i think they have about 10,000 and upgrade/reinforce them.. They can be very useful in urban /guerrilla warfare ,as support tanks.. What i would also like to see is also many orders of Koalition -SV and Iskanders..

    You know how many Iskanders Russia have in inventory at the moment and how many ordered.?
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:19 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    Does russian MOD have said how many armata main battle tanks they will order for the army?

    The last figure I've heard was 2,500 Armata's in various configurations. I would guess they're aiming for around 500 MBT's over the next decade. Who really knows though...

    Thats actually not a bad number.. They should also keep their T-72s i think they have about 10,000 and upgrade/reinforce them.. They can be very useful in urban /guerrilla warfare ,as support tanks.. What i would also like to see is also many orders of Koalition -SV and Iskanders..  

    You know how many Iskanders Russia have in inventory at the moment and how many ordered.?

    No, Russia does not have anywhere near 10,000 operational, reserve, or even stored in barely decent condition T-72s. Not at this point.

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    Mike E

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Mike E on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:24 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    Does russian MOD have said how many armata main battle tanks they will order for the army?

    The last figure I've heard was 2,500 Armata's in various configurations. I would guess they're aiming for around 500 MBT's over the next decade. Who really knows though...

    Thats actually not a bad number.. They should also keep their T-72s i think they have about 10,000 and upgrade/reinforce them.. They can be very useful in urban /guerrilla warfare ,as support tanks.. What i would also like to see is also many orders of Koalition -SV and Iskanders..  

    You know how many Iskanders Russia have in inventory at the moment and how many ordered.?

    No, Russia does not have anywhere near 10,000 operational, reserve, or even stored in barely decent condition T-72s. Not at this point.

    That number is way inflated, so you are correct... They could simply upgrade the T-72's to the B2 and B3 standards, while producing both the T-90 (of some variant, at a slower pace) and Armata. That would leave them with a rather powerful ground force without breaking the bank, and it *shouldn't* take much time either... They still have a large number of -72's in reserve, right?
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    Zivo

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Zivo on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:25 pm

    The bulk of the T-72's in service will likely remain in service for a long time, but will be upgraded. Which isn't a bad thing, considering NATO has the same plan for their MBT's. The clock is ticking down for the older reserve vehicles though, T-80's are also on the chopping block.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:29 pm

    Zivo wrote:The bulk of the T-72's in service will likely remain in service for a long time, but will be upgraded. Which isn't a bad thing, considering NATO has the same plan for their MBT's. The clock is ticking down for the older reserve vehicles though, T-80's are also on the clopping block.

    Which is a mistake IMO. Even given their vulnerabilities, they are very advanced even today.

    Instead of wearing out their life as quick as possilble (T-64s or spare T-72s could be used for that instead), they should be retired but placed into the reserve and kept in good condition; while T-64s should make their way into training units.
    T-62s, T-55/T-54s should be scrapped or converted into civil or utility vehicles same as the current plan calls for.

    That way, Russia would easily have a pool of advanced MBTs on top of the T-72 pool under active exploitation, and as T-64s would be used for training, tank crews will end up acquainted with a lot of the same features that are present in the T-80s. In times of high military tension, those T-80s could be rapidly mobilized and would be highly effective even without further modernisation.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Mike E on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:32 pm

    Zivo wrote:The bulk of the T-72's in service will likely remain in service for a long time, but will be upgraded. Which isn't a bad thing, considering NATO has the same plan for their MBT's. The clock is ticking down for the older reserve vehicles though, T-80's are also on the chopping block.
    Figured that, and it seems like a good option both economically and militarily... Why are the T-80's going to get chopped when the T-72 is technically older?- I've been wondering this for a while now, and it doesn't make much sense.... I'd like to them get upgraded to some sort of export spec and sold. I'm sure that there are potential buyers, why not?
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:38 pm

    T-80 was "rejected" because of high fuel consumption. Army has not changed its opinion since then. The vulnerability issue is wildly overplayed and not that much of a factor.

    There are so many T-72s left, that rationalizing the force to one (well, almost one) type makes sense. T-64s are ancient and pointless, there are enough T-72s for training. They have bee dumped several years back from training, for good reason.
    While I would like to see T-80 live out its life, especially with proliferation of T-72B3 keeping them around is hard to justify. They are even more pointless to keep in reserve IMO. T-72 is a much more suitable reserve or mobilization tank, especially given the kind of crews reserve units would get in wartime.
    With mostly T-72s, training, large scale technical support in theater, and spare cannibalization becomes easier. Presumably they do have enough spares built up that continuing T-80 operations for years, but I guess they really want to narrow it down to one type.

    T-62 and T-55 are gone.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:41 pm

    akd wrote:I just did.  He stopped updating that site a long time ago.

    Please feel free to provide an original source for the report if you don't think Fofanov's doubts raise concerns about its veracity.  Everything I can find on this report points back to Fofanov's website, except some vague references to the original source being a post in a Russian language forum.

    Fofanov and others have discussed the trials on Russian forums. The consensus is it is not reliable data, and sadly should be dismissed.

    Vympel

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Vympel on Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:12 am

    Mike E wrote:
    Figured that, and it seems like a good option both economically and militarily... Why are the T-80's going to get chopped when the T-72 is technically older?

    That depends on what T-72 and what T-80 you're talking about. The T-80B series is not newer than the T-72B series by any significant degree. T-72Bs were built right up to the end of the USSR (and beyond I believe). The Russian force is clearly being rationalised to T-72B tanks - distinct from say T-72A tanks which you never see nowadays, and which are probably being exported to fight in Syria or something.

    EDIT: only a comparative handful of T-80Us exist. T-80UDs built in Ukraine have been withdrawn.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:58 am

    Vympel wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    Figured that, and it seems like a good option both economically and militarily... Why are the T-80's going to get chopped when the T-72 is technically older?

    That depends on what T-72 and what T-80 you're talking about. The T-80B series is not newer than the T-72B series by any significant degree. T-72Bs were built right up to the end of the USSR (and beyond I believe). The Russian force is clearly being rationalised to T-72B tanks - distinct from say T-72A tanks which you never see nowadays, and which are probably being exported to fight in Syria or something.

    EDIT: only a comparative handful of T-80Us exist. T-80UDs built in Ukraine have been withdrawn.
    No matter how you look at it, they are both of the same generation of MBT's. - If they retire some of the T-80's (in this case all of them) why not retire some T-72's along with it? I'm confused on why they'd retire the T-80 and not both when they are of the same age... The only explanation I can think of is that the T-72 is has more modified variants, but that's it...  The gas-guzzling problem could be fixed with a new, and/or upgraded engine and transmission etc.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:11 am

    Mike E wrote:
    No matter how you look at it, they are both of the same generation of MBT's. - If they retire some of the T-80's (in this case all of them) why not retire some T-72's along with it? I'm confused on why they'd retire the T-80 and not both when they are of the same age... The only explanation I can think of is that the T-72 is has more modified variants, but that's it...  The gas-guzzling problem could be fixed with a new, and/or upgraded engine and transmission etc.

    What part is confusing? The logic is rationalization of the tank fleet, that is basically it.
    Russia has more tanks that it needs, especially with increased emphasis on ready formations vs vast war stocks.
    Taking out parts of both tank fleets is pointless. You might as well get rid of one entirely and not complicate future operations. Simplifying your technical diversity is always a good thing.  

    There is no question of age- the T-80 is a fine tank (in fact you could easily argue it is better than T-72B without any upgrades). However the gas issue is there. Changing engine and transmission, well, you do not have a T-80 anymore, since it is very much designed to use a compact gas turbine. What other option is there, to buy 6TD from Ukraine Wink ? It is costly, there is no project to do so, and at the end of the day you might as well Kapremont a T-72 from storage (or even upgrade it, would probably cost no less then switching the T-80s turbine out) and slim your tank force down to one less vehicle.

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