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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

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    GarryB

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    In 2004 the design arm of the business was absorbed into Uralvagonzavod.

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:59 am

    I think the current priority with tanks is first to focus on what to do with the surplus which is something like 15,000 vehicles.
    Second will be to get the 6-8,000 tanks they will be left with organised so they all have the same engines and transmissions and electronics and sensors and guns etc etc.
    Third priority will be what comes into service in 2020 to replace them.

    I think number one is number one, with work on number two also being worked on and likely tested this year or next, which means they will be able to start doing something about the second thing from 2012 onwards...
    Number three is a direction for the Russian Tank industry to work on and there will be work that also takes into account technology developed for the T-95 but not implemented obviously... if it can't be made to work with the T-90 upgrade then it can be kept for the next gen replacement tank that will likely be called T-95 no matter when it arrives.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  ali.a.r on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:36 am

    Can anyone tell me how many armored vehicles are in a typical Russian batallion? Thanks in advance. Smile
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:27 am

    Typically a Russian tank battalion has 41 tanks, which can be broken down into one tank in the HQ unit, and 4 tank companies of 10 tanks each.

    AFAIK a Motor Rifle Brigade will have 3 Motor Rifle battalions and 1 Tank battalion, while a Tank Brigade will have 3 tank battalions and 1 motor rifle battalion.

    ali.a.r

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  ali.a.r on Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:41 am

    Thanks. What about repair vehicles and other support vehicles?

    So that means a Tank Brigade has approx. 120 MBT's, while a Motor Rifle Brigade will have around 40? AFAIK, there are 4 Tank Brigades and 35 Motor Rifle Brigades. So theoretically that means a total of around 1900 MBT's. Am I right?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:00 am

    That sounds about right, though I am no expert.

    Support vehicles will be part of the engineer battalions within the tank brigade.

    I have heard that engineer battalions are much larger in Motor Rifle brigades than in Tank brigades because MR brigade engineer units have a lot more sappers and mine laying and mine clearing and also field construction roles, whereas in Tank brigades mobility is more important so they don't have the mine laying capacity, or trench construction capacity.

    I found this on a website:


    Russian Independent Motor Rifle Brigade
    (about 4,500 personnel)

    Command Company

    Signal Battalion
    - HQ
    - 2 x Signal Companies

    1x or 2x Tank Battalion(s) (usually 1)
    - HQ: 1 x MBT
    - 4 x Tank Companies with each 10 x T72/T-80/T-90

    3 x Motor Rifle Battalions
    - HQ
    - 3 x Motor Rifle Companies: 10 x BMP or BTR or MT-LB
    - Mortar Company: 6 x 120mm Mortars 2B11/2S12 or 6 x 82mm Mortars 2B14
    - AGL platoon: 3 x BMP or BTR, 6 x AGS-30 AGL
    - Antitank platoon: 3 x BMP or BTR, 6 x AT4/AT13/AT14
    - Recon platoon: 1 x BMR-K, 2 BMP or 3 x BTR
    - Engineer platoon
    - Logistic platoon
    - Medical platoon

    Artillery Command and recon battery
    2 x SP howitzer battalions
    - HQ
    - 3 x SP Howitzer Batteries: 6 x 2S3M or 2S19 152mm SP Howitzers or 6 x 2S1 122mm Howitzers

    Rocket launcher battalion
    - HQ
    - 3 x MLRS Batteries: 6 x BM21

    Antitank Battalion
    - HQ
    - 1-2 AT Gun Batteries: 6 x 100mm MT-12 AT-Gun, should be replaced with 6 x 2S25 Sprut
    - 1-2 ATGM Batteries: 9-12 x 9P148 (AT-5) or 9-12 x 9P149 (AT-6), should be replaced with 12 x 9P162 (BMP3 with AT-14 Kornet)

    Air defence missile battalion
    - HQ
    - 3 x Heavy AD Batteries: 4 x SA-8 or 4 x SA-15 or 2 SA-11

    Air defence missile - artillery battalion
    - HQ
    - 1 x SP AD Gun Battery: 6 x ZSU-23-4 or 2S6
    - 1 x AD Battery: 6 x SA-13
    - 1 x AD Battery: 27 x SA-14

    Recon Company: 4 x BMR-K, 6 x BMP oder 10 x BTR

    NBC Defence Company

    Engineer Battalion
    - HQ
    - Engineer sapper company
    - Engineer construction company
    - Engineer technical company
    - Pontoon bridge company

    Maintenance battalion
    - HQ
    - Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Company
    - Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Company
    - Ordnance/Weapons Maintenance Company
    - Electronic Maintenance company
    - Combat Recovery Company

    Supply battalion
    - HQ
    - 3 x Transport Companies
    - Support Company

    Medical company

    + garrison services

    So of particular note is that a Motor Rifle Brigade normally has one, but can have two Tank battalions.
    Also it has fairly heavy fire support with 18 x 120mm mortars and 36 152mm or 122mm Self propelled howtizers, plus 18 Grads... soon to be replaced with Tornado-Gs
    Note the anti tank battalion is not present in the Tank Brigades.

    ali.a.r

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  ali.a.r on Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:51 am

    Thanks Garry. Why the huge reduction in the size of the Tank force?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:53 am

    Russia can't afford to have a Soviet sized armed force.

    But actually the old Soviet forces were split into three tiers of readiness.

    The high readiness units were near frontlines or based in Eastern Europe and had the latest stuff. They were pretty much ready to start fighting straight away.
    The Second tier units didn't have all their stuff and a lot of their stuff was older kit... the first tier had T-64s and then T-80s, while the second tier had T-72s and some upgraded T-62s, they were also not fully manned so they would take a couple of weeks to get conscripts with relatively recent service and equipment they most likely trained on when they were in service a few years back, while the third tier units had all their kit in long term storage and skeleton manning, and when formed up... which could take a month, had obsolete equipment like T-55/54 tanks and BTR-50 APCs.

    Basically the new revision has removed the tier 2 and tier 3 units and has begun the removal from storage of all the old stuff.

    The new units will the high readiness highly mobile and well equipped and well trained units.

    In comparison the new force will actually have more ready to use forces, but will not be able to fight a long sustained war, these forces are mainly for small or short conflicts... the bigger stuff will be covered by nukes.

    ali.a.r

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  ali.a.r on Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:13 am

    Thats a huge change. Whenever I think of the Russian Army, I always have this mental image of hundreds of tanks crashing through the enemy. But the new tank force of less than 2000 tanks, (to be honest) it just sounds wrong.
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    GarryB

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    Russia Announces 'Massive' Tank Scrappage Scheme

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:04 am


    Russia Announces 'Massive' Tank Scrappage Scheme

    Outmoded tanks and armored vehicles will be scrapped in a "massive" scheme launched by the defense ministry last year, a senior military official said on Friday.

    "From 2011 onward, in accordance with a government decree the Defense Ministry has begun taking outdated automobiles and armored vehicles out of service and getting rid of them," Gen Maj Alexander Shevchenko told reporters in Moscow.

    The scheme involves T-80, T-64, T-55, tanks as well as a number of army trucks.

    Shevchenko did not disclose the exact number of vehicles to be destroyed, but the Soviet Union produced thousands of these types of tanks from the 1950's to the 1990's and stored many of them.

    The ministry could not be reached for comment.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120323/172346264.html

    There will be a lot of vehicles they will want to get rid of because they are not domestic products anymore, or simply not worth upgrading.

    This should save a lot of money and perhaps generate some income depending on what they do with the scrap.

    gloriousfatherland

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:28 am

    Waste of time, money, human resources....Time for radical changes.....T-34-T55....we need smt like that with respect to fighting vehicles...The armor is crap, and its OUTDATED....It doesn't even conform to russia's current reform and milittary doctrine....Give some university engineers to come up with an innovative design...DARPA does projects like that, russia should try it...Time to give the recycling of soviet machinery a rest...Time for Russian Innovation.History proves you did it many times.Now do it again! russia
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:22 am

    There is simply not enough money or justification for throwing everything out and buying all new stuff.

    What they are basically doing is throwing out the really old stuff and the obsolete stuff and the stuff that was made outside Russia (ie T-80 and trucks and certain vehicle chassis).

    They will then look at the stuff that has potential... like the BMP-2, and upgrade it to a high level and spend the rest of their money on new stuff when it becomes available.

    The new stuff needs to go through thorough testing and then they need to tool up and start production which all takes time and money.

    Throwing out the obsolete stuff frees up space and saves a lot of money, upgrading stuff that is not obsolete takes the pressure off new vehicle production and allows existing service personel to get used to using thermal sights and modern communications and battle management systems etc etc.
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    medo

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  medo on Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:07 pm

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/03/23/getridof/

    Hm, here they say, they will scrap T-55, T-62 and T-64, not T-80, what make more sense to me. T-55, T-62 and T-64 are around half a century old, so it doesn't have sense to keep them in any reserve. T-72 and T-80 yes, but T-55 and T-62 are too old.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:26 am

    The critical thing is to get rid of the T-54/55 and T-62 because that eliminates two calibres... 100mm rifled tank gun and 115mm smooth bore tank gun. This means in terms of tank gun fired ammo they just have 125mm and perhaps a few 152mm for experimentation.

    The T-64s are probably quite worn out by now as most T-64s in Russia came from East Germany. The way it worked was that whatever stuff you had you kept so a lot of high tech quality stuff was forward deployed on Soviet Territory in the Ukraine and Belarus and the Eastern European states in Soviet units.

    I rather suspect the T-80s will be transferred to the Navy, and there are quite a few older models that should just be scrapped, but there is probably 1,500-2,000 that could be kept in service and used till they are worn out and then scrapped.

    Regarding the old model T-72s even if their turrets are obsolete (for the very early models) you can give the chassis a quick upgrade as use the chassis base for other things like a MSTA base for MSTAs that operate in units of T-72s so there is a commonality of components. They could even use them for BTRTs to replace BMP and BTR vehicles in heavy brigades equipped with T-72s.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:45 pm

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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Russian Patriot on Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:18 pm

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    Pugnax

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    T-90

    Post  Pugnax on Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:43 pm

    The hubbub about a 152mm gun means that the politburo is still trying to sell the KV-2.
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    Pugnax

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    Soviet Cold War Tanks

    Post  Pugnax on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:23 am

    If im wrong im sorry the t-55 ag info excites me because it is a survivable veteran,60 years old and still functional.Nevertheless remember maskirovka  et al....the ukrainians made out well,its a fact.Old t-72 was a mass  fast charge pig of a tank.Working from t-64 and t-80s the oplot is very good.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:12 am

    The T-55 was a simple cheap tank that has probably been produced in more numbers than any other tank in history... especially when taking into account T-54 and of course tens of thousands of Chinese knock offs.

    The fact remains that without a new gun the T-55 is a threat only to medium and light armoured vehicles and its armour can be penetrated by most ATGMs and RPGs in service.

    It is much better than nothing except when fighting a modern war against a well equipped opponent. For COIN ops or anti guerilla use it is fine, but it cannot be compared with a modern vehicle.

    The T-64 and T-80 were expensive tanks few could afford, while the T-72 was the cheap and simple mass production tank, which is really in the same boat as the T-55, though even in the reduced performance export models has better armour and a better gun than T-55s.

    Oplot fixes the main problem with the T-64 and T-80 and that was that their propellent stub cartridges were not protected in the underfloor autoloader... so even with just the ammo in the autoloader (22 rounds) any penetrating hit on the vehicle would send a shower of sparks and hot fragments onto the floor of the turret where the incredibly flammable propellent stubs were stored and they would inevidibly ignite all at once in a chain reaction to immediately kill the entire crew and take the turret off.

    The Oplot has its ammo moved to its turret rear AFAIK, which solves the problem, but makes the ammo exposed to enemy fire.

    The T-72 does not have exposed ammo stubs sticking up vertically unprotected, both the stubs and the projectiles are horizontal and under armour plate to sparks and hot fragments cannot reach the vulnerable propellent.

    This means that if you take the extra loose ammo out of a T-72 they are much harder to destroy and the crews survival chances increase dramatically.


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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:39 am

    Pugnax wrote:If im wrong im sorry the t-55 ag info excites me because it is a survivable veteran,60 years old and still functional.Nevertheless remember maskirovka et al....the ukrainians made out well,its a fact.Old t-72 was a mass fast charge pig of a tank.Working from t-64 and t-80s the oplot is very good.

    T-64 had way more issues than T-72 ever did in exploitation, don't let the hype fool you.

    If the T-64 was a success, both operationally and tactically, there would not have been a T-72.


    The T-55 upgrade is not that big of a deal, Russia has some very good T-55 upgrades as well.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:36 am

    The T-64 was a bit of a problem child, and the T-80 has an excessively thirsty engine arrangement.

    Both were high tech frontline tanks, while the T-72 was the cheap mass production tank that would make up the numbers.

    The T-72 was never meant to face frontline western tanks... it was the numbers tank that poured through the gaps created by the T-64 and T-80. Ove time its armour and capabilities improved but it was the numbers tank till Russia and the Ukraine split along with the rest of the Soviet Union.

    Once they were not longer trapped making the T-72 cheap and producible and had to compete with the T-80 as a quality tank... when they decided they couldn't afford two different tanks that had few compatible parts the T-72BA and T-80 went head to head and the Russian military chose the T-72BA, which became the T-90.

    The Russians had Omsk to produce the T-80 in huge numbers so it wasn't as if UVZ won the competition by default... the T-90 was just a better tank. Omsk couldn't make the new diesel engine for the T-80 but otherwise it was pretty much the T-80U vs T-90 and the T-90 won.


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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:35 pm

    T-72B also had thicker armor than T-64, and even T-80B, marginally. Wink
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:00 am

    Yes... most things were different and the T-64 was supposed to be better, but things like wheels... the T-64 went to small wheels but later changed to T-72 like wheels with comments about shedding tracks being a problem with the smaller wheels.

    As mentioned the T-64/80 have a different ammo arrangement in their autoloaders where the projectiles are horizontal but the propellent stubs are vertical and exposed which makes them vulnerable to armour penetrations. Whether it is a solid penetrator or HEAT plasma jet there are hot sparks and fragments flying round inside the compartment during a penetration and the exposed ammo is almost always ignited in the T-64/T-80 series, whereas the T-72 and T-90 have both the projectile and propellent stub horizontal under armour plate in the autoloader so fragments, sparks and even burning material in the crew compartment will not set it off.

    This means that penetrations are dangerous for all T-64 and T-80 vehicles, while with T-72 and T-90s only carrying ammo in the underfloor autoloader is safe... the main fire hazard is loose spare ammo in the crew compartment.

    Going into combat with 22 rounds in the autoloader is much much safer in the T-72 and T-90.


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    TR1

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    Soviet Tanks

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:09 pm

    http://zapret-no.livejournal.com/25893.html

    Not exactly Russia, but still interesting. Part of Kharkov tank factory, where a huge number of tanks was stored after Soviet army left Europe.
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:57 am

    IMO, having T-90AMs as main tank force in order to save money in the near future would be more expnsive for them in the future. First, armata mbts have much better modernization potential in the future than t-90(based on 50 year design). you can add as much fancy electronics and netcentric capabilities as you want but the other guy can either do the same in much higher numbers(china) or leapfrog straight to 4th gen(us once they see armata). 2nd getting rid of theolder tanks production and logistics would save more money the earlier it is done. 3rd, high tech tanks(especially those a gen ahead) have a much higher profit margin for export, and surely some big nation would chip in for improvements.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:23 am

    T-90 tanks still sell... there is a market for them.

    The purpose of the Armata tank is for high threat situations like downtown grozny in conflict.

    Probably less than 20% of the MBTs in Russia will be armata based because less than 20% of divisions will be armata based divisions.

    Most of them will be Kurganets or Boomerang or Typhoon based divisions or Brigades and therefore will have Kurganets, Boomerang, or Typhoon based MBTs.

    For those units that retain older vehicle types the T-90AM will be a useful upgrade... but the goal is to move to the new vehicles as quickly as possible for purposes of standardisation and compatibility... in which case the upgraded T-72s will allow for the new net centric communications systems to be carried by all MBTs and of course the new thermal sights will mean they can fight in the dark too... there will be differences and of course the T-90AM will be a better machine, but also a more expensive machine... which is a very bad feature for a stopgap vehicle.


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