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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

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    ali.a.r

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  ali.a.r on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:36 pm

    Can anyone tell me how many armored vehicles are in a typical Russian batallion? Thanks in advance. Smile
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:27 pm

    Typically a Russian tank battalion has 41 tanks, which can be broken down into one tank in the HQ unit, and 4 tank companies of 10 tanks each.

    AFAIK a Motor Rifle Brigade will have 3 Motor Rifle battalions and 1 Tank battalion, while a Tank Brigade will have 3 tank battalions and 1 motor rifle battalion.

    ali.a.r

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  ali.a.r on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:41 pm

    Thanks. What about repair vehicles and other support vehicles?

    So that means a Tank Brigade has approx. 120 MBT's, while a Motor Rifle Brigade will have around 40? AFAIK, there are 4 Tank Brigades and 35 Motor Rifle Brigades. So theoretically that means a total of around 1900 MBT's. Am I right?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:00 pm

    That sounds about right, though I am no expert.

    Support vehicles will be part of the engineer battalions within the tank brigade.

    I have heard that engineer battalions are much larger in Motor Rifle brigades than in Tank brigades because MR brigade engineer units have a lot more sappers and mine laying and mine clearing and also field construction roles, whereas in Tank brigades mobility is more important so they don't have the mine laying capacity, or trench construction capacity.

    I found this on a website:


    Russian Independent Motor Rifle Brigade
    (about 4,500 personnel)

    Command Company

    Signal Battalion
    - HQ
    - 2 x Signal Companies

    1x or 2x Tank Battalion(s) (usually 1)
    - HQ: 1 x MBT
    - 4 x Tank Companies with each 10 x T72/T-80/T-90

    3 x Motor Rifle Battalions
    - HQ
    - 3 x Motor Rifle Companies: 10 x BMP or BTR or MT-LB
    - Mortar Company: 6 x 120mm Mortars 2B11/2S12 or 6 x 82mm Mortars 2B14
    - AGL platoon: 3 x BMP or BTR, 6 x AGS-30 AGL
    - Antitank platoon: 3 x BMP or BTR, 6 x AT4/AT13/AT14
    - Recon platoon: 1 x BMR-K, 2 BMP or 3 x BTR
    - Engineer platoon
    - Logistic platoon
    - Medical platoon

    Artillery Command and recon battery
    2 x SP howitzer battalions
    - HQ
    - 3 x SP Howitzer Batteries: 6 x 2S3M or 2S19 152mm SP Howitzers or 6 x 2S1 122mm Howitzers

    Rocket launcher battalion
    - HQ
    - 3 x MLRS Batteries: 6 x BM21

    Antitank Battalion
    - HQ
    - 1-2 AT Gun Batteries: 6 x 100mm MT-12 AT-Gun, should be replaced with 6 x 2S25 Sprut
    - 1-2 ATGM Batteries: 9-12 x 9P148 (AT-5) or 9-12 x 9P149 (AT-6), should be replaced with 12 x 9P162 (BMP3 with AT-14 Kornet)

    Air defence missile battalion
    - HQ
    - 3 x Heavy AD Batteries: 4 x SA-8 or 4 x SA-15 or 2 SA-11

    Air defence missile - artillery battalion
    - HQ
    - 1 x SP AD Gun Battery: 6 x ZSU-23-4 or 2S6
    - 1 x AD Battery: 6 x SA-13
    - 1 x AD Battery: 27 x SA-14

    Recon Company: 4 x BMR-K, 6 x BMP oder 10 x BTR

    NBC Defence Company

    Engineer Battalion
    - HQ
    - Engineer sapper company
    - Engineer construction company
    - Engineer technical company
    - Pontoon bridge company

    Maintenance battalion
    - HQ
    - Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Company
    - Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Company
    - Ordnance/Weapons Maintenance Company
    - Electronic Maintenance company
    - Combat Recovery Company

    Supply battalion
    - HQ
    - 3 x Transport Companies
    - Support Company

    Medical company

    + garrison services

    So of particular note is that a Motor Rifle Brigade normally has one, but can have two Tank battalions.
    Also it has fairly heavy fire support with 18 x 120mm mortars and 36 152mm or 122mm Self propelled howtizers, plus 18 Grads... soon to be replaced with Tornado-Gs
    Note the anti tank battalion is not present in the Tank Brigades.

    ali.a.r

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  ali.a.r on Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:51 pm

    Thanks Garry. Why the huge reduction in the size of the Tank force?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:53 pm

    Russia can't afford to have a Soviet sized armed force.

    But actually the old Soviet forces were split into three tiers of readiness.

    The high readiness units were near frontlines or based in Eastern Europe and had the latest stuff. They were pretty much ready to start fighting straight away.
    The Second tier units didn't have all their stuff and a lot of their stuff was older kit... the first tier had T-64s and then T-80s, while the second tier had T-72s and some upgraded T-62s, they were also not fully manned so they would take a couple of weeks to get conscripts with relatively recent service and equipment they most likely trained on when they were in service a few years back, while the third tier units had all their kit in long term storage and skeleton manning, and when formed up... which could take a month, had obsolete equipment like T-55/54 tanks and BTR-50 APCs.

    Basically the new revision has removed the tier 2 and tier 3 units and has begun the removal from storage of all the old stuff.

    The new units will the high readiness highly mobile and well equipped and well trained units.

    In comparison the new force will actually have more ready to use forces, but will not be able to fight a long sustained war, these forces are mainly for small or short conflicts... the bigger stuff will be covered by nukes.

    ali.a.r

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  ali.a.r on Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:13 pm

    Thats a huge change. Whenever I think of the Russian Army, I always have this mental image of hundreds of tanks crashing through the enemy. But the new tank force of less than 2000 tanks, (to be honest) it just sounds wrong.
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    GarryB

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    Russia Announces 'Massive' Tank Scrappage Scheme

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:04 pm


    Russia Announces 'Massive' Tank Scrappage Scheme

    Outmoded tanks and armored vehicles will be scrapped in a "massive" scheme launched by the defense ministry last year, a senior military official said on Friday.

    "From 2011 onward, in accordance with a government decree the Defense Ministry has begun taking outdated automobiles and armored vehicles out of service and getting rid of them," Gen Maj Alexander Shevchenko told reporters in Moscow.

    The scheme involves T-80, T-64, T-55, tanks as well as a number of army trucks.

    Shevchenko did not disclose the exact number of vehicles to be destroyed, but the Soviet Union produced thousands of these types of tanks from the 1950's to the 1990's and stored many of them.

    The ministry could not be reached for comment.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120323/172346264.html

    There will be a lot of vehicles they will want to get rid of because they are not domestic products anymore, or simply not worth upgrading.

    This should save a lot of money and perhaps generate some income depending on what they do with the scrap.

    gloriousfatherland

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:28 pm

    Waste of time, money, human resources....Time for radical changes.....T-34-T55....we need smt like that with respect to fighting vehicles...The armor is crap, and its OUTDATED....It doesn't even conform to russia's current reform and milittary doctrine....Give some university engineers to come up with an innovative design...DARPA does projects like that, russia should try it...Time to give the recycling of soviet machinery a rest...Time for Russian Innovation.History proves you did it many times.Now do it again! russia
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:22 pm

    There is simply not enough money or justification for throwing everything out and buying all new stuff.

    What they are basically doing is throwing out the really old stuff and the obsolete stuff and the stuff that was made outside Russia (ie T-80 and trucks and certain vehicle chassis).

    They will then look at the stuff that has potential... like the BMP-2, and upgrade it to a high level and spend the rest of their money on new stuff when it becomes available.

    The new stuff needs to go through thorough testing and then they need to tool up and start production which all takes time and money.

    Throwing out the obsolete stuff frees up space and saves a lot of money, upgrading stuff that is not obsolete takes the pressure off new vehicle production and allows existing service personel to get used to using thermal sights and modern communications and battle management systems etc etc.
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    medo

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  medo on Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:07 pm

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/03/23/getridof/

    Hm, here they say, they will scrap T-55, T-62 and T-64, not T-80, what make more sense to me. T-55, T-62 and T-64 are around half a century old, so it doesn't have sense to keep them in any reserve. T-72 and T-80 yes, but T-55 and T-62 are too old.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:26 am

    The critical thing is to get rid of the T-54/55 and T-62 because that eliminates two calibres... 100mm rifled tank gun and 115mm smooth bore tank gun. This means in terms of tank gun fired ammo they just have 125mm and perhaps a few 152mm for experimentation.

    The T-64s are probably quite worn out by now as most T-64s in Russia came from East Germany. The way it worked was that whatever stuff you had you kept so a lot of high tech quality stuff was forward deployed on Soviet Territory in the Ukraine and Belarus and the Eastern European states in Soviet units.

    I rather suspect the T-80s will be transferred to the Navy, and there are quite a few older models that should just be scrapped, but there is probably 1,500-2,000 that could be kept in service and used till they are worn out and then scrapped.

    Regarding the old model T-72s even if their turrets are obsolete (for the very early models) you can give the chassis a quick upgrade as use the chassis base for other things like a MSTA base for MSTAs that operate in units of T-72s so there is a commonality of components. They could even use them for BTRTs to replace BMP and BTR vehicles in heavy brigades equipped with T-72s.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:45 am

    http://siloviki-ru.livejournal.com/66178.html

    Training of 200th OMSBr.
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:57 pm

    IMO, having T-90AMs as main tank force in order to save money in the near future would be more expnsive for them in the future. First, armata mbts have much better modernization potential in the future than t-90(based on 50 year design). you can add as much fancy electronics and netcentric capabilities as you want but the other guy can either do the same in much higher numbers(china) or leapfrog straight to 4th gen(us once they see armata). 2nd getting rid of theolder tanks production and logistics would save more money the earlier it is done. 3rd, high tech tanks(especially those a gen ahead) have a much higher profit margin for export, and surely some big nation would chip in for improvements.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:23 pm

    T-90 tanks still sell... there is a market for them.

    The purpose of the Armata tank is for high threat situations like downtown grozny in conflict.

    Probably less than 20% of the MBTs in Russia will be armata based because less than 20% of divisions will be armata based divisions.

    Most of them will be Kurganets or Boomerang or Typhoon based divisions or Brigades and therefore will have Kurganets, Boomerang, or Typhoon based MBTs.

    For those units that retain older vehicle types the T-90AM will be a useful upgrade... but the goal is to move to the new vehicles as quickly as possible for purposes of standardisation and compatibility... in which case the upgraded T-72s will allow for the new net centric communications systems to be carried by all MBTs and of course the new thermal sights will mean they can fight in the dark too... there will be differences and of course the T-90AM will be a better machine, but also a more expensive machine... which is a very bad feature for a stopgap vehicle.


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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:T-90 tanks still sell... there is a market for them.

    The purpose of the Armata tank is for high threat situations like downtown grozny in conflict.

    Probably less than 20% of the MBTs in Russia will be armata based because less than 20% of divisions will be armata based divisions.

    Most of them will be Kurganets or Boomerang or Typhoon based divisions or Brigades and therefore will have Kurganets, Boomerang, or Typhoon based MBTs.

    For those units that retain older vehicle types the T-90AM will be a useful upgrade... but the goal is to move to the new vehicles as quickly as possible for purposes of standardisation and compatibility... in which case the upgraded T-72s will allow for the new net centric communications systems to be carried by all MBTs and of course the new thermal sights will mean they can fight in the dark too... there will be differences and of course the T-90AM will be a better machine, but also a more expensive machine... which is a very bad feature for a stopgap vehicle.
    Ah, so out of the 2300 armata by 2020, there would be about 400 mbts(80 per year = t-90 levels:pale:)
    and equal number of bmpts.dunno 
    And I remember they want 1200 mbts so if we go by 80 per year they would make that number in 2030.
    @ above: Cr@p maybe that was posted before and I wasnt being attentive.unshaven 
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    GarryB

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    Regarding talk of the T-90AM being the future backbone of the Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:59 pm

    I am pretty sure I have talked about this before... from memory I based my numbers on the CFE agreement which limits Russia to about 6,000 MBTs.

    Yes I know CFE is dead, but Russia seemed happy with those sorts of numbers so I used them as a base.

    The first thing we need to do is work out the proportion of the forces... armata is not a MBT, so if we assume that the structure of forces will be 20% heavy brigades or divisions, and say 50% medium brigades/divisions, that would leave 30% light brigades and divisions.

    If we therefore further break it down that means 20% of MBTs will be armatas, 20% will be kurganets MBTs and 30% would be boomerangs and in the light MBTs 30% would be typhoon MBTs.

    That would mean about 2/3rds would be wheeled vehicles which would be lighter and more mobile on hard ground and roads and also cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate.

    20% of 6,000 is 1,200, so 1200 armata MBTs, 1,200 Kurganets-25 MBTs, and 1,800 boomerang MBTs and 1,800 typhoon MBTs.

    And I remember they want 1200 mbts so if we go by 80 per year they would make that number in 2030.

    Why do you think they can only produce 80 tanks per year?

    UVZ has the production capacity to build thousands of vehicles per year... it just hasn't had the orders or the money...


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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  VladimirSahin on Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:22 am

    Here with a question,  Does anyone know how much tanks are in service for example list of how much t-72b3 or t-72ba's ect ect.  And is there a some sort of way to see how what we have and how much kinda like a inventory?
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:43 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:Here with a question,  Does anyone know how much tanks are in service for example list of how much t-72b3 or t-72ba's ect ect.  And is there a some sort of way to see how what we have and how much kinda like a inventory?

    Apparently around 4,000 T-72B's were built for the Russian Army, of which 800-1,000 were T-72BA's. As of last year's end, around 300 had been modified to BM's, 150 to B2's and 300 to B3's.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:28 pm

    Not sure where you are getting those numbers from.
    UVZ built over 20,000 T-72s from 1974 to 1990. Only 4000 T-72Bs in total? Much more IMO.
    Assuming all plans were met like reported, there were 370 T-72B3 upgraded from 2012-2013.
    T-72BA was upgraded in several different variants, but at best there are a couple hundred of them, less than B3 at this point.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Asf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:43 pm

    It's around 1500 T-72B(BA, B3) in an active service now. And around 7000 T-72 of all modifications are in reserve. Exact numbers are classified actually
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:19 pm

    TR1 wrote:Not sure where you are getting those numbers from.
    UVZ built over 20,000 T-72s from 1974 to 1990. Only 4000 T-72Bs in total? Much more IMO.
    Assuming all plans were met like reported, there were 370 T-72B3 upgraded from 2012-2013.
    T-72BA was upgraded in several different variants, but at best there are a couple hundred of them, less than B3 at this point.  

    I'm afraid that I acquired those numbers from many different sources over time. I was never able to determine if the BA's were included in that 4,000 T-72B total, so it has potential to be 800-1,000 higher (I always go conservative). Remember that the B / BA were the last production models, so 20-25% would not be out of the realm of possibility. I'm comfortable with the breakdown of Modified tanks, there are plans and there is actual. Noticed the other day that getting ready for the biathlon, they had been upgrading both BM's and B2's to B3's standard to use in the competition. I would have used the funds to upgrade some B's first.


    Last edited by franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:25 pm

    Asf wrote:It's around 1500 T-72B(BA, B3) in an active service now. And around 7000 T-72 of all modifications are in reserve. Exact numbers are classified actually

    It would actually be almost twice that amount in active units as the T-80 has been completely withdrawn from service. The twice would include training units and spares kept with operational units.

    Asf

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Asf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:56 pm

    It would actually be almost twice that amount in active units as the T-80 has been completely withdrawn from service.

    Russia has around 40 motorised rifle brigades with one tank batallion (around 40 tanks). It's about 1500-1600 tanks. Plus a limited number of tanks in naval infantry and 4 tank brigades (or now 3 ar one brigade was converted into a division), but don't forget about T-90. It's around 2000 in the active service at all

    spares kept with operational units.

    They are technically in reserve

     training units

    Those can have older T-72 models btw
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    franco

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:33 pm

    My info shows 37 tank battalions in brigades of which 8 are T-90A's. A normal Russian tank bn has 41 tanks plus an unit generally has another company of older versions used for training.
    This would equal 1189 primary + 290 training T-72's.
    There are 4 tank bdes plus 1 regiment (18th MG div) with 94 tanks per plus a training company per bn all T-72's.
    This would equal 470 primary + 150 training T-72's.
    There are 4 training tank regiments plus 2 bns of which 1 bn is T-90.
    This would equal 417 training T-72's.
    This would equal 2516 total T-72's. If you include the 13 Reserve bde tank bns then it goes above 3,000.



    Not trying to argue my friend, just sharing what information that I have. Only the Russian MoD has the correct answer... we hope  Wink 

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