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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

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    Pugnax
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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Pugnax on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:08 am

    Guys kharkhiv was the premiere soviet tank factory,lets not rub salt in old wounds.With the dissolution of the 3cp some thing were lost,including the kiev armour school.
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    Post  Pugnax on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:23 am

    If im wrong im sorry the t-55 ag info excites me because it is a survivable veteran,60 years old and still functional.Nevertheless remember maskirovka  et al....the ukrainians made out well,its a fact.Old t-72 was a mass  fast charge pig of a tank.Working from t-64 and t-80s the oplot is very good.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:36 am

    Guys kharkhiv was the premiere soviet tank factory,lets not rub salt in old wounds.With the dissolution of the 3cp some thing were lost,including the kiev armour school.

    Kharkov had nothing to do with the development or construction of the T-90 tank... any data they have is either estimates or speculation, and we have seen videos to prove their data is wrong.

    They were the premier tank makers of the Soviet Army, because that was their role... develop and produce expensive but state of the art tanks for breakthrough operations... T-64 and then T-80.

    The problem is a lack of funding for the last 25 years and separation from the rest of the Soviet Union republics.

    Generally new diesel engines came from the Ukraine, but most optics came from Belarus and plenty of components came from Russia.

    With the breakup of the Soviet Union the systems were broken up too, and Russia is really the only part of the Former Soviet Union that came has come out of the crisis with a functioning MIC. There were lots of areas they needed to work on themselves and they invested a lot of money on diesel engines and other components. For Thermal Imagers they were so far behind and the Soviet states were also so far behind they purchased French technology to catch up.

    Now they are making third gen Russian thermal imagers and investing on QWIP technology and moving forward themselves.

    Kharkov has been starved of funds and work and while their ability with modern armours and modern ERA is still better than many countries... they are falling behind because of a lack of investment by their own government.

    The sudden investment by the Russian military in late 2008 proved that years of neglect and prototypes don't prepare an MIC for mass production of modern products... that costs extra and takes time.

    I would suggest that details released by Kharkov regarding T-90s... Which they don't make nor have access to, is largely for the purposes of marketing, rather than a real comparison of performance, and their numbers are clearly wrong.

    BTW most tanks have a range of traverse speeds including backup manual speeds, and 16 degrees per second means over 20 seconds to turn the turret around once. I doubt even the manual speed is that slow, but for precise aiming a slow rate of turn allows the gunner to follow real world targets... a target doing 50km/h that is 3km away could easily be followed with a turn rate of 16 degrees per second.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:12 am

    The T-55 was a simple cheap tank that has probably been produced in more numbers than any other tank in history... especially when taking into account T-54 and of course tens of thousands of Chinese knock offs.

    The fact remains that without a new gun the T-55 is a threat only to medium and light armoured vehicles and its armour can be penetrated by most ATGMs and RPGs in service.

    It is much better than nothing except when fighting a modern war against a well equipped opponent. For COIN ops or anti guerilla use it is fine, but it cannot be compared with a modern vehicle.

    The T-64 and T-80 were expensive tanks few could afford, while the T-72 was the cheap and simple mass production tank, which is really in the same boat as the T-55, though even in the reduced performance export models has better armour and a better gun than T-55s.

    Oplot fixes the main problem with the T-64 and T-80 and that was that their propellent stub cartridges were not protected in the underfloor autoloader... so even with just the ammo in the autoloader (22 rounds) any penetrating hit on the vehicle would send a shower of sparks and hot fragments onto the floor of the turret where the incredibly flammable propellent stubs were stored and they would inevidibly ignite all at once in a chain reaction to immediately kill the entire crew and take the turret off.

    The Oplot has its ammo moved to its turret rear AFAIK, which solves the problem, but makes the ammo exposed to enemy fire.

    The T-72 does not have exposed ammo stubs sticking up vertically unprotected, both the stubs and the projectiles are horizontal and under armour plate to sparks and hot fragments cannot reach the vulnerable propellent.

    This means that if you take the extra loose ammo out of a T-72 they are much harder to destroy and the crews survival chances increase dramatically.


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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:39 am

    Pugnax wrote:If im wrong im sorry the t-55 ag info excites me because it is a survivable veteran,60 years old and still functional.Nevertheless remember maskirovka et al....the ukrainians made out well,its a fact.Old t-72 was a mass fast charge pig of a tank.Working from t-64 and t-80s the oplot is very good.

    T-64 had way more issues than T-72 ever did in exploitation, don't let the hype fool you.

    If the T-64 was a success, both operationally and tactically, there would not have been a T-72.


    The T-55 upgrade is not that big of a deal, Russia has some very good T-55 upgrades as well.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:36 am

    The T-64 was a bit of a problem child, and the T-80 has an excessively thirsty engine arrangement.

    Both were high tech frontline tanks, while the T-72 was the cheap mass production tank that would make up the numbers.

    The T-72 was never meant to face frontline western tanks... it was the numbers tank that poured through the gaps created by the T-64 and T-80. Ove time its armour and capabilities improved but it was the numbers tank till Russia and the Ukraine split along with the rest of the Soviet Union.

    Once they were not longer trapped making the T-72 cheap and producible and had to compete with the T-80 as a quality tank... when they decided they couldn't afford two different tanks that had few compatible parts the T-72BA and T-80 went head to head and the Russian military chose the T-72BA, which became the T-90.

    The Russians had Omsk to produce the T-80 in huge numbers so it wasn't as if UVZ won the competition by default... the T-90 was just a better tank. Omsk couldn't make the new diesel engine for the T-80 but otherwise it was pretty much the T-80U vs T-90 and the T-90 won.


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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:35 pm

    T-72B also had thicker armor than T-64, and even T-80B, marginally. Wink
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:00 am

    Yes... most things were different and the T-64 was supposed to be better, but things like wheels... the T-64 went to small wheels but later changed to T-72 like wheels with comments about shedding tracks being a problem with the smaller wheels.

    As mentioned the T-64/80 have a different ammo arrangement in their autoloaders where the projectiles are horizontal but the propellent stubs are vertical and exposed which makes them vulnerable to armour penetrations. Whether it is a solid penetrator or HEAT plasma jet there are hot sparks and fragments flying round inside the compartment during a penetration and the exposed ammo is almost always ignited in the T-64/T-80 series, whereas the T-72 and T-90 have both the projectile and propellent stub horizontal under armour plate in the autoloader so fragments, sparks and even burning material in the crew compartment will not set it off.

    This means that penetrations are dangerous for all T-64 and T-80 vehicles, while with T-72 and T-90s only carrying ammo in the underfloor autoloader is safe... the main fire hazard is loose spare ammo in the crew compartment.

    Going into combat with 22 rounds in the autoloader is much much safer in the T-72 and T-90.


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    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:09 pm

    http://zapret-no.livejournal.com/25893.html

    Not exactly Russia, but still interesting. Part of Kharkov tank factory, where a huge number of tanks was stored after Soviet army left Europe.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  ali.a.r on Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:34 am

    Question guys. Whats the difference between the "cassette" loader and the "basket" loader, as in the difference between the ones used on the T-64/80 and the T-72/90?
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Zivo on Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:32 pm

    The T-72's autoloader stores both the projectiles and propellant charges horizontally, underneath a firewall. Both the projectile and the propellant are raised into position by an elevator simultaneously then rammed separately into the breech.

    Like this.



    The T-80 stores the projectiles horizontally, and the propellant charges vertically.

    Here's a hard to find image of the T-80's magazine. It's actually a T-84, but it's the same setup.



    However, unlike the T-72, the T-80 loads in one smooth motion. This is why the T-80 has a slightly faster rate of fire.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:55 pm

    Nice vids Zivo.

    Basically cassette and basket generally refer to both or either system... which are basically automated ammo handling systems.

    The T-80 system evolved from the system from the T-64, and the T-72 system was developed separately.

    The T-80 system is faster but is fatally flawed.

    The whole reason the Black Eagle had a rear turret bustle autoloader and removed all the under floor ammo is because in the T-80 autoloader the ammo stubs are positioned vertically and are exposed... and are made of propellent impregnated cardboard. They are supposed to combust completely in the chamber during firing so all that is left is a small stub steel shell case.

    The problem is that any penetration in the crew compartment will send a shower of sparks and hot fragments and any contact with the propellent stubs on the floor will start a fierce fire and explosion of propellent with all the stubs igniting each other together.

    In the T-72 they are horizontal and separated from the crew compartment by steel armour plate, which means any fragments or hot sparks that enter the crew compartment can't contact the propellent stubs and will fairly rapidly burn out.

    Experience in Chechnia is that a penetration with a T-80... boom. Penetration of the T-72 with the loose ammo in the crew compartment removed and no boom.

    Only solution for T-80 was to move the autoloader to the turret bustle.

    For the T-72/90 move the extra ammo to an armoured box between the turret and engine and the rear turret bustle in a separated protected position.


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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Zivo on Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:34 pm

    Absolutely

    Another issue with the vertical propellant storage is that it produces a significantly larger target vs the T-72/90's magazine. By being cylindrical in form, any hit on the T-80's lower hull could result it a catastrophic detonation of the ammunition.

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    Post  ali.a.r on Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:54 pm

    Thanks a for the explanations Zivo and Garry.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:39 am

    Tank on a platform of "Armata" will receive a brand new layout with an uninhabited combat module - CEO "Uralvagonzavod"

    MOSCOW, March 12. (ARMS-TASS). Tank based on currently being developed combat platform "Armata" will receive a brand new layout, which has no analogues in the world, in particular, an uninhabited "tower." This was the general director of the Scientific and Production Corporation (NGOs) "Uralvagonzavod" Oleg Sienko.

    "It is a new machine, which has a new layout, which no one," - he said on the radio station "Echo of Moscow", adding that the new tank on the basis of "Almaty was" will, in particular, uninhabited combat compartment.

    Sienko said that this universal platform can be created about 30 machines for different purposes, it involves a different placement of the engine - both front and back, depending on what type of combat vehicle will be "installed" on this platform - BMP or such as SAM. For the main battle tank (MBT), which will be produced at its base, developing new ammunition and a set of dynamic protection of the new generation. In the "Armata" will be used "a totally different technology on the armor, all cars will increase survivability in the real battle," said Sienko.

    CEO NGOs stressed that the importance of the new MBT is also the engine. "It needs only a new engine: a fundamentally different, easy to me, - he said. - Engine, which can be changed in a matter of minutes, which is extremely important in certain conditions." "Of course power also plays a role," - said the head of the corporation, adding that now the tanks came to those performance results that correspond to wheeled vehicles. In "Almaty was" in particular, will be "very different performance results, making this car the pride of Russian tank production, although it can not be called a pure tank," added the CEO.

    Sienko said he hoped that by the end of this year, the corporation will be able to complete the main work on the "Armata" will continue to be refined only individual nodes. He informed that "Armata" will not be on display at an international exhibition in Nizhny Tagil in September, not least because it is still secret development.

    The platform is developed rapidly, the parameters that you specify "Uralvagonzavod" in the Defense Ministry, he seeks to accomplish, Sienko said. CEO emphasized that "nothing in the world is not done on a universal platform, all platforms are different," and Russia is the only country which today is going to release a new series armored vehicles, and other countries are on the path of modernization.

    In the case of MBT based on the platform, "Armata", "Uralvagonzavod" hopes to produce a certain time "tank-dream," joked Sienko.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Regular on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:03 pm

    ^^ That is amazing. Russians will be first to create universal platform when Americans and other countries were talking about this concept way before but it didn't see the light. I hope that unmanned turret will be more sophisticated than Falcon turret. I bet it will be.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:54 pm

    Regular wrote:^^ That is amazing. Russians will be first to create universal platform when Americans and other countries were talking about this concept way before but it didn't see the light. I hope that unmanned turret will be more sophisticated than Falcon turret. I bet it will be.
    It is, with all its fancy sensors, a more powerful 2a82 gun, NERA/ERA, lighter armor, APS that can deal even against APFSDS, and stealthy shaping and materials. Also, ammo vertically stored under the turret ring that is not exposed to enemy fire.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Austin on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:56 am

    Here is the Fully Interview with Oleg Sienko

    Arsenal: Russian Heavy Tank. Existing patterns and perspectives platform "Armata"
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    Armata platform

    Post  Zivo on Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:34 am

    Sienko said he hoped that by the end of this year, the corporation will be able to complete the main work on the "Armata" will continue to be refined only individual nodes. He informed that "Armata" WILL NOT be on display at an international exhibition in Nizhny Tagil in September, not least because it is still secret development.

    MF Mad

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  VladimirSahin on Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:22 am

    Here with a question,  Does anyone know how much tanks are in service for example list of how much t-72b3 or t-72ba's ect ect.  And is there a some sort of way to see how what we have and how much kinda like a inventory?
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:43 am

    VladimirSahin wrote:Here with a question,  Does anyone know how much tanks are in service for example list of how much t-72b3 or t-72ba's ect ect.  And is there a some sort of way to see how what we have and how much kinda like a inventory?

    Apparently around 4,000 T-72B's were built for the Russian Army, of which 800-1,000 were T-72BA's. As of last year's end, around 300 had been modified to BM's, 150 to B2's and 300 to B3's.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:28 am

    Not sure where you are getting those numbers from.
    UVZ built over 20,000 T-72s from 1974 to 1990. Only 4000 T-72Bs in total? Much more IMO.
    Assuming all plans were met like reported, there were 370 T-72B3 upgraded from 2012-2013.
    T-72BA was upgraded in several different variants, but at best there are a couple hundred of them, less than B3 at this point.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Asf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:43 am

    It's around 1500 T-72B(BA, B3) in an active service now. And around 7000 T-72 of all modifications are in reserve. Exact numbers are classified actually
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:19 pm

    TR1 wrote:Not sure where you are getting those numbers from.
    UVZ built over 20,000 T-72s from 1974 to 1990. Only 4000 T-72Bs in total? Much more IMO.
    Assuming all plans were met like reported, there were 370 T-72B3 upgraded from 2012-2013.
    T-72BA was upgraded in several different variants, but at best there are a couple hundred of them, less than B3 at this point.  

    I'm afraid that I acquired those numbers from many different sources over time. I was never able to determine if the BA's were included in that 4,000 T-72B total, so it has potential to be 800-1,000 higher (I always go conservative). Remember that the B / BA were the last production models, so 20-25% would not be out of the realm of possibility. I'm comfortable with the breakdown of Modified tanks, there are plans and there is actual. Noticed the other day that getting ready for the biathlon, they had been upgrading both BM's and B2's to B3's standard to use in the competition. I would have used the funds to upgrade some B's first.


    Last edited by franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:25 pm

    Asf wrote:It's around 1500 T-72B(BA, B3) in an active service now. And around 7000 T-72 of all modifications are in reserve. Exact numbers are classified actually

    It would actually be almost twice that amount in active units as the T-80 has been completely withdrawn from service. The twice would include training units and spares kept with operational units.

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