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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

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    franco
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:27 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Russia has over 3000-4000 T-72B not just 50, those numbers are far to low. Russia's stock along with stored and conserved tanks is to 22.500 tanks, cutting of T-55/62 models from that it leaves russia with 16.500 tanks of T-72,T-80,T-90.

    There are about 7-8,000 T-72B's of all types including those mentioned. The total of all tanks including those in storage would be around 15,000 presently. The 50 total was for the T-72B1 and T-72B in active units would be in the 700-900 range depending on the T-90 status.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 16, 2015 11:29 pm

    franco wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Interesting, wonder why the high degree of differences in numbers regarding reports.

    That said, they have not gained any new T-90 tanks since 2011/2?  Ouch.  Yet their numbers of T-72B3's are pathetically low since they would have had 2 - 3 years to acquire more of them.  So tank purchases has been VERY low in last 4 years.

    I wonder why?  Unless they are gearing up for new models and simply holding out till then.

    The 360 T-72B3's and 50 T-72B1's are over the last 3 years as the final T-90A's arrived. I think they expected the T-14's to arrive sooner.

    Highly possible, because Uralvagonzavod can produce a lot more than that in a single year (upwards to 1000 tanks per year).

    Probably the case, and they were going on small upgrades till then (predicted only 70+ B3 upgrades in 2015.....). So either they were waiting on new tanks, or something else. Because they said they wanted 2300 Armata's by 2020, but that isn't going to happen as Armata wont start trials till next year and I doubt they will go for full on production of the companies capacity for 4 years. So who knows how much money that is being allocated for procurement, is being stored till Armata is released.

    But you would think they would simply move the significant amount of stored tanks out of storage and in use till then. Because on warfare.be, they speculate about 8000 T-72 tanks are in storage.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Werewolf on Sat May 16, 2015 11:34 pm

    I really hope they get more T-90A1 in production or maybe even some T-90AM as simply as it is the T-14 isn't finished and it will cost a shit load and they won't have 2300 Armata's untill 2025 so i guess they will extent the T-14 deadline further and buy T-90A/AM as current gap filler.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 16, 2015 11:37 pm

    Werewolf wrote:I really hope they get more T-90A1 in production or maybe even some T-90AM as simply as it is the T-14 isn't finished and it will cost a shit load and they won't have 2300 Armata's untill 2025 so i guess they will extent the T-14 deadline further and buy T-90A/AM as current gap filler.

    Maybe a T-90AM upgrade (something less costly but more modest) for all T-72A and b types that are in reserve/service. Something like a large amount that would be ready for active service and can be stored when Armata is released, or at least in active service along side Armata and quick service, while all other models are thrown in reserves.

    Because the tank counts are very low in active service. M1 active service is apparently higher, or maybe I am reading it wrong. But having a large amount is beneficial.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:43 pm

    Werewolf wrote:I really hope they get more T-90A1 in production or maybe even some T-90AM as simply as it is the T-14 isn't finished and it will cost a shit load and they won't have 2300 Armata's untill 2025 so i guess they will extent the T-14 deadline further and buy T-90A/AM as current gap filler.



    There will be another ~300 T-72B3 and T-90AM's this year and most likely for the next two. The Army has stated they will be receiving 100 T-14's over the first 3 years for testing plus training and they seem to be on the 300 per year production thing right now.

    EDIT: this would give around 1600 T-72B3, T-90A and T-90AM's plus about 700 T-14's by the end of 2020 for a total of 2300 modern tanks.


    Last edited by franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:47 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:I really hope they get more T-90A1 in production or maybe even some T-90AM as simply as it is the T-14 isn't finished and it will cost a shit load and they won't have 2300 Armata's untill 2025 so i guess they will extent the T-14 deadline further and buy T-90A/AM as current gap filler.

    Maybe a T-90AM upgrade (something less costly but more modest) for all T-72A and b types that are in reserve/service.  Something like a large amount that would be ready for active service and can be stored when Armata is released, or at least in active service along side Armata and quick service, while all other models are thrown in reserves.

    Because the tank counts are very low in active service.  M1 active service is apparently higher, or maybe I am reading it wrong.  But having a large amount is beneficial.

    There would be around 3,000 active Russian tanks verses 1,200 active American tanks including training units but not reserve or storage units.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 16, 2015 11:48 pm

    franco wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:I really hope they get more T-90A1 in production or maybe even some T-90AM as simply as it is the T-14 isn't finished and it will cost a shit load and they won't have 2300 Armata's untill 2025 so i guess they will extent the T-14 deadline further and buy T-90A/AM as current gap filler.

    Maybe a T-90AM upgrade (something less costly but more modest) for all T-72A and b types that are in reserve/service.  Something like a large amount that would be ready for active service and can be stored when Armata is released, or at least in active service along side Armata and quick service, while all other models are thrown in reserves.

    Because the tank counts are very low in active service.  M1 active service is apparently higher, or maybe I am reading it wrong.  But having a large amount is beneficial.

    There would be around 3,000 active Russian tanks verses 1,200 active American tanks including training units but not reserve or storage units.

    How many are in storage total? Would you happen to know?

    I guess the 300 per year idea is to make sure they get some modern tanks while at the same time, keep the plant working and people paid. Smart idea I suppose.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Sat May 16, 2015 11:53 pm

    A lot of old tanks are now gone. The total of active and stored tanks would be in the 13,500 -15,500 range.

    EDIT: see my edit above to werewolf.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 17, 2015 12:27 pm

    I would think the best option would be to adapt the new equipment going in the T-14 and T-15 into upgrades for the T-90AM and BMP-3M respectively so they can start producing those components now and there will be some parts unification between operational vehicles... it should also improve performance of upgraded vehicles and increase production numbers for components improving commonality and hopefully reducing costs and allowing operational testing to get the kinks out of the systems sooner...


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    Tank totals

    Post  franco on Mon May 18, 2015 2:04 pm

    Related to the Tank Totals, these are the amounts listed by the IISS in their 2015 World Military Balance.

    MBT 2,600: 1,300 T-72B/BA; 400 T-72B3; 550 T-80BV/U; 350
    T-90/T-90A; (17,500 in store: 2,800 T-55; 2,500 T-62; 2,000
    T-64A/B; 7,000 T-72/T-72A/B; 3,000 T-80B/BV/U; 200 T-90)

    plus another 200 T-72/T-80's in the Navy Coastal Commands.

    The Russians announced several years back that all T-55's and T-62's were to be removed and scrapped.

    My figures vary slightly to this.

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    tank totals

    Post  cracker on Mon May 18, 2015 3:41 pm

    a better idea would be to look data on all russian army brigades and look photos...
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Mon May 18, 2015 4:21 pm

    cracker wrote:a better idea would be to look data on all russian army brigades and look photos...

    I do check units and photos to confirm. It is a difficult job as a lot of planned or announced or reported changes don't occur. The other thing that I do is round the totals up per unit to allow spares. In the old Soviet army there was always an extra company (10 tanks) assigned per battalion for training and spares. I round up to 35 or 45 depending on the unit. A Tank brigade or regiment has a 3-company battalion or 31 tanks in total while a Motor Rifle brigade or regiment has a 4-company or 41 tanks in total. When the last 6 battalions switched to T-90A's, a total of 261 tanks were assigned initially or 43.5 tanks per battalion. I also attempt to determine how many were actually produced or are still in service to do a backwards count to confirm, ie 315 T-90A's reported delivered and I'm showing 7 battalions using = Bingo!
    Another example is the T-80 tank. Back in 1992 there were 440 T-80U's split between the Russian and Kazakh's. Would assume that most went to the Russian army and it looks like the Kazakh's don't use them anymore. So it looks like there would be about 400 in Russian service. For the T-80BV's, I have seen figures both of 115 and 155 as being upgraded, so is that a total of 270 BV's or 115. I use a total of 150 as a safe compromise until I get better data. And of course there is still the factor of attrition.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  collegeboy16 on Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:01 pm

    franco wrote:
    A good example of this would be the Armata MBT and how many are planned for by the end of 2020. Just on this site alone that is all over the place.
    crossposting this to try to reduce confucius.

    franco wrote:
    - some expect to see 2300 modern Armata MBT.
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t3691p30-official-armata-discussion-thread-2
    Armata is expected to be given to the army in 2017. Per presidents orders the Armata MBT's production will roughly number in 2300 units, with productions running into year 2020. This is just the MBT numbers, not counting all the other new armor fighting vehicles and etc.
    franco wrote:
    - some look and say that would not be possible production wise, so they must mean a total 2300 of the Armata modular weapons platform.
    pops up from time to time in searches, tho some use the term armata to refer to only the T-14. slightly more doable since more factories are working on different mission specific equipment in parallel, with the caveat that only two models are in the metal, and therefore can be tested which
    can eat a year.
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/armata.htm
    About 2,300 Armatas were expected to be delivered to the military by 2020. But too many problems exist in the defense sector and in tank building specifically. There is little confidence, therefore, that plans for the new tank and its mass production will be translated into reality, at least not in the timeline announced. "Armata" is a project for development of a universal platform for the various armored vehicles, including tank support combat vehicle, and self-propelled artillery.
    franco wrote:
    - I read it and believe it means 2300 modern MBT's, which would be T-72B3, T-90A and Armata.
    reading franco's earlier posts i kinda now believe this is more plausible. not to mention they just recently decided to modernize the T-72B3 and T-90A so that should fudge the rest.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:06 am

    - I read it and believe it means 2300 modern MBT's, which would be T-72B3, T-90A and Armata.

    How many actual MBTs in a tank or motor rifle division?

    Say about 30 in a motor rifle division and 90 in a tank division?

    The more important question is... how many other types of vehicles in each division?

    Because in an Armata tank division... 90 are MBTs... ie T-14s, but there will also be T-15s and other armata based vehicles... that is a lot of vehicles to produce... just to make each armata div.


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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    - I read it and believe it means 2300 modern MBT's, which would be T-72B3, T-90A and Armata.

    How many actual MBTs in a tank or motor rifle division?

    Say about 30 in a motor rifle division and 90 in a tank division?

    The more important question is... how many other types of vehicles in each division?

    Because in an Armata tank division... 90 are MBTs... ie T-14s, but there will also be T-15s and other armata based vehicles... that is a lot of vehicles to produce... just to make each armata div.

    A Tank Battalion in a Tank Brigade or Regiment has 31 tanks. Or 3 companies of 10 tanks plus the CO's tank. A Tank Battalion in a Motor Rifle Brigade or Regiment has 41 tanks. Or 4 companies of 10 plus the CO's tank. Round them up to 35 and 45 to allow spares (old Red Army carried 10 per unit as spares)
    There are 5 Tank Regiments or Brigades (94 each) and about 40 Motor Rifle / Coastal Defense / Machine Gun Brigades and Regiments (41 each). Plus another 10 or so Tank Battalions in the Training Units.
    A MT-LBV based brigade would have almost 300 armored vehicles including APC's, tanks, artillery, air defense, reconnaissance, engineer, C3 and support.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  George1 on Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:36 am

    On the border with Ukraine will be restored 10th Guards Tank Division


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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:05 am

    George1 wrote:On the border with Ukraine will be restored 10th Guards Tank Division

    Curious as to where all the bodies are coming from for all these new units but imagine we will soon find out.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:44 am

    franco wrote:
    George1 wrote:On the border with Ukraine will be restored 10th Guards Tank Division

    Curious as to where all the bodies are coming from for all these new units but imagine we will soon find out.

    Conscripts should be higher now that Russia managed to make half of its army contract based rather than mostly conscript like it was years ago.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:01 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    franco wrote:
    George1 wrote:On the border with Ukraine will be restored 10th Guards Tank Division

    Curious as to where all the bodies are coming from for all these new units but imagine we will soon find out.

    Conscripts should be higher now that Russia managed to make half of its army contract based rather than mostly conscript like it was years ago.

    The demographic crisis that Russia was experiencing peaks as in regards to lack of 18 year old's to conscript in 2016-2018. It isn't until after then, that there starts to be more 18 year old's each year.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:53 am

    franco wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    franco wrote:
    George1 wrote:On the border with Ukraine will be restored 10th Guards Tank Division

    Curious as to where all the bodies are coming from for all these new units but imagine we will soon find out.

    Conscripts should be higher now that Russia managed to make half of its army contract based rather than mostly conscript like it was years ago.

    The demographic crisis that Russia was experiencing peaks as in regards to lack of 18 year old's to conscript in 2016-2018. It isn't until after then, that there starts to be more 18 year old's each year.

    That is true, it will take a couple of years for them to have the amount of 18 year olds eligible for military service. But while previously, almost all 800,000 people were conscripts, it is now effectively almost half a million for both conscripts and contractors, as they were able to offshoot a lot of the tasks/positions to contractors. But if they were able to increase number of contractors as greatly as they have, I don't doubt they could easily muster up a couple more hundred thousand conscripts. Afterall, Russia is 146+ Million population, now added in Crimea as well.
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:07 pm

    The 10th Gds Tank Division is suppose to be staffed with contractors
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  franco on Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:05 am

    Another analysis of the Russian Tank force and projections;
    https://russiamil.wordpress.com/
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  BKP on Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:05 am

    Talks about the current state of the Russian economy and its effect on the future prospects of Armata, T-90AM & T-72B3.

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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:48 am

    BKP wrote:Talks about the current state of the Russian economy and its effect on the future prospects of Armata, T-90AM & T-72B3.


    Well Uralvagonzavod with German accent and statements that  T-90 is  worse then ukropskie tanki., I guess no more laugh this morning needed Smile

    BTW authors might maybe can check facts how many "oplots"  were delivered to Thailand for for years? 10! then is real danger for Russia export!

    and yesss till 2025 400 max. Damn next undisputed expertize?Smile
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    Re: Russia Tank Force: Present and Future

    Post  BKP on Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:28 pm

    ^ You think that's a German accent? I thought more like an ESL person who learned English in South England. Anyhow, her accent is weird, and difficult for me to understand sometimes.

    Regarding what was said in the video, I'm not no expert, but some of this seemed questionable. She says something like "T-90 is becoming rapidly outdated," and is basically being outclassed by Uke Oplot and Chinese Type 96A. Then it's claimed that this is the reason why Thailand chose Oplot over the T-90. I didn't personally follow the details of that deal, and am not familiar with the details and what factors played into Thailand's decision.

    Anyhow, I've generally thought South Front is a pretty good alternative news source, but I'm quite dubious about some of what is said in this video.

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