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    Indian MMRCA competition: News

    Mike E
    Mike E


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    Post  Mike E Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:21 am

    EKS wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    Finally, the deal is just a proposal.

    I would suggest that it is not a proposal... it is a threat to France regarding the price of the 126 Rafales (ie 22 billion is too much)... it would be cheaper to use that money and create a new joint venture with MiG to develop a new light 5th gen fighter, but instead they will end up with 126 largely obsolete fighters that eventually get into service.

    They are proposing it as we speak, which means for now that it is a proposal. It could go farther than that though...

    Losing those aircraft would be a large blow to an already weakened German AF.

    The question is why the indian top brass want to buy 4th gen european fighters. In the near term i would understand that you want to have different supply routes (russian and western fighters) when your own industry laks the expertise to build a comparible aircraft. Also in the near term, these aircraft have enough capabilities to match current threats. In the mid term, these aircraft can play a significant role. But it depends on strategy (why to use them) and also on tactics (how to use them). In the mid term they will have a heavy stealth fighter (FGFA). But for defence at the home base. There will be no need for a ´stealthy´ medium fighter. The indian defence is like a version of the russian airspace defence strategy.

    But on the other hand. I would love to see the indians spend their money on russian tech. Maby we will see an medium MIG stealth figher in the future. Very Happy
    India really hasn't expressed "much" interest yet... Hopefully they avoid the EF and find a more advanced (5th gen?) alternative.
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:59 am

    Mike E wrote:
    EKS wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    Finally, the deal is just a proposal.

    I would suggest that it is not a proposal... it is a threat to France regarding the price of the 126 Rafales (ie 22 billion is too much)... it would be cheaper to use that money and create a new joint venture with MiG to develop a new light 5th gen fighter, but instead they will end up with 126 largely obsolete fighters that eventually get into service.

    They are proposing it as we speak, which means for now that it is a proposal. It could go farther than that though...

    Losing those aircraft would be a large blow to an already weakened German AF.

    The question is why the indian top brass want to buy 4th gen european fighters. In the near term i would understand that you want to have different supply routes (russian and western fighters) when your own industry laks the expertise to build a comparible aircraft. Also in the near term, these aircraft have enough capabilities to match current threats. In the mid term, these aircraft can play a significant role. But it depends on strategy (why to use them) and also on tactics (how to use them). In the mid term they will have a heavy stealth fighter (FGFA). But for defence at the home base. There will be no need for a ´stealthy´ medium fighter. The indian defence is like a version of the russian airspace defence strategy.

    But on the other hand. I would love to see the indians spend their money on russian tech. Maby we will see an medium MIG stealth figher in the future. Very Happy
    India really hasn't expressed "much" interest yet... Hopefully they avoid the EF and find a more advanced (5th gen?) alternative.

    Indian militarly have a tradition of creating child with five fathers and three mothers. Even in the Su-30MKI you can see devices from various countries.

    If using carefully, this tactics can significantly increase the stuff's capability and increase the amount of technology for the host country. But then, the incompatibility between difference brands cause mechanical problems... that's why we frequently witness accidents and crashes in Indian army.

    Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:28 am


    Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    Obviously a western website and the Su-35 has its TVC turned off... it simply wouldn't matter what sort of fly by wire software you had or what sort of flight control surfaces you have, or their size, thrust vectoring engines means post stall manouver capability.

    The MiG-35 will be on the list with Su-35 before you see any other aircraft... third would probably be the F-22 or a eurocanard...

    The Typhoon is an impressive aircraft... as is the Rafale... which is why the Indians want it, but 22 billion for 126 planes...  that is about 175 million per plane... the FFGA likely wont cost that much... 9.8 billion for 126 is much better 78 million per aircraft.. vastly more sensible and reasonable.

    Losing those aircraft would be a large blow to an already weakened German AF.

    What do you mean losing? The contract is for delivery of 16 and domestic production in India of the rest... I am sure the other partners in the program will accept that if it means a work share for them and profits for them... and they would likely love a chance to stick it to France for beating them in the original competition...

    The fact is that India is a mix of religions and bias... in terms of bias some look to the west and some look to the Russians. at the end of the day their policy of diversity keeps both groups happy... the pro Russians can fly around in their MiGs and Sukhois, while the pro west guys flew around in Jaguars and Mirage 2000s.

    the problem was created when India wanted more Mirage 2000s and France refused to sell them or production rights to them. they demanded India buy Rafales for a ridiculous price. India refused and created the MRCA program to get France to deliver 126 aircraft for 10 billion dollars. France won the competition but India is paying 175 million dollars per aircraft so France really did win that competition.

    The idea of aircraft diversity makes sense but it is supposed to make aircraft supply reliable... not horrendously expensive and now with France threatening sanctions more unreliable than products from the Soviet Union or Russia have ever been.

    Personally I think they would be better off buying 400 MiG-29M2s, which would fully replace most light fighters and multirole aircraft like MiG-23 and Jaguar and the Mirage 2000, and in 10 years time decide whether they need a medium or light stealth fighter or if they should go for more drones.
    medo
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    Post  medo Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:46 pm

    I'm all for India to buy 126 ex-German AF Eurofighters. This will be big and important disarmament of NATO in Europe.
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:50 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    Obviously a western website and the Su-35 has its TVC turned off... it simply wouldn't matter what sort of fly by wire software you had or what sort of flight control surfaces you have, or their size, thrust vectoring engines means post stall manouver capability.

    The MiG-35 will be on the list with Su-35 before you see any other aircraft... third would probably be the F-22 or a eurocanard...

    The Typhoon is an impressive aircraft... as is the Rafale... which is why the Indians want it, but 22 billion for 126 planes...  that is about 175 million per plane... the FFGA likely wont cost that much... 9.8 billion for 126 is much better 78 million per aircraft.. vastly more sensible and reasonable.

    Losing those aircraft would be a large blow to an already weakened German AF.

    What do you mean losing? The contract is for delivery of 16 and domestic production in India of the rest... I am sure the other partners in the program will accept that if it means a work share for them and profits for them... and they would likely love a chance to stick it to France for beating them in the original competition...

    The fact is that India is a mix of religions and bias... in terms of bias some look to the west and some look to the Russians. at the end of the day their policy of diversity keeps both groups happy... the pro Russians can fly around in their MiGs and Sukhois, while the pro west guys flew around in Jaguars and Mirage 2000s.

    the problem was created when India wanted more Mirage 2000s and France refused to sell them or production rights to them. they demanded India buy Rafales for a ridiculous price. India refused and created the MRCA program to get France to deliver 126 aircraft for 10 billion dollars. France won the competition but India is paying 175 million dollars per aircraft so France really did win that competition.

    The idea of aircraft diversity makes sense but it is supposed to make aircraft supply reliable... not horrendously expensive and now with France threatening sanctions more unreliable than products from the Soviet Union or Russia have ever been.

    Personally I think they would be better off buying 400 MiG-29M2s, which would fully replace most light fighters and multirole aircraft like MiG-23 and Jaguar and the Mirage 2000, and in 10 years time decide whether they need a medium or light stealth fighter or if they should go for more drones.
    Ok. I didn't have that information at the time... Embarassed 16 is a lot for the German Airforce, but I guess they do rely on NATO...

    I agree, they need a larger number of lighter weight aircraft! (MiGs...)
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:50 am

    medo wrote:I'm all for India to buy 126 ex-German AF Eurofighters. This will be big and important disarmament of NATO in Europe.
    Unfortunately only 16 will be ex-German, but your point still stands.

    lol!
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:54 am

    higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.
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    Indian MMRCA competition: News - Page 5 Empty India Considers Buying 126 Eurofighters From Germany

    Post  ricky123 Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:29 am

    MOSCOW, September 8 (RIA Novosti) – India may acquire 126 Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft from Germany, Deutsche Presse-Agentur reported Monday.
    Indian and German officials are once again negotiating a multibillion-dollar deal for the delivery of 126 German-made fighter jets to India, the agency reported, citing German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier.
    India and Germany previously discussed a similar deal, but India decided against the Eurofighter jets in 2012 and chose to acquire French-produced Dassault Rafale combat aircraft instead. However, an agreement has not been reached so far.
    The value of the possible contract is estimated at 7.6 billion euro (about $9.8 billion), according to the agency. Eurofighters are produced by the Bavaria-based Eurofighter GmbH company.
    Steinmeier is currently in India, where he has been in talks with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj. The topics under discussion were trade, investment, high tech cooperation and renewable energy collaboration, according to the Indian Ministry of External Affairs.
    Source : RIA Novosti

    http://defenceradar.com/2014/09/09/india-considers-buying-126-eurofighters-from-germany/

    there are many other sources reporting this news ....
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:34 am

    So they may not get the Rafale and instead get the Eurofighter?

    God India, just choose already.
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:38 am

    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

    And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.
    medo
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    Post  medo Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:02 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    medo wrote:I'm all for India to buy 126 ex-German AF Eurofighters. This will be big and important disarmament of NATO in Europe.
    Unfortunately only 16 will be ex-German, but your point still stands.

    lol!

    Maybe Austria will sell their 15 Eurofighters as they don't have money to operate them.
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    Post  Mike E Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:38 pm

    medo wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    medo wrote:I'm all for India to buy 126 ex-German AF Eurofighters. This will be big and important disarmament of NATO in Europe.
    Unfortunately only 16 will be ex-German, but your point still stands.

    lol!

    Maybe Austria will sell their 15 Eurofighters as they don't have money to operate them.
    Germany is the one proposing the deal, but who knows!
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    Post  Mike E Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:39 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

    And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

    That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:45 pm

    sepheronx wrote:So they may not get the Rafale and instead get the Eurofighter?

    God India, just choose already.
    Yep, unfortunately...

    Yeah India, hurry up and buy some MiGs!
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    Post  ricky123 Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:22 pm

    sepheronx wrote:So they may not get the Rafale and instead get the Eurofighter?

    God India, just choose already.

    the thing is they say Germany is giving some 50% discount . which makes the offer very tempting

    according to EFT consortium every country is supposed to order certain number of fighters .if they dont they will have to pay a fine .

    all of the countries involved in EFT have cut down on the orders .but if they get the indian order they can save the money . hence the discount .

    does any1 else has any related news ?
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:43 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

    And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

    That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.

    Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:

    1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.

    2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:39 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

    And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

    That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.

    Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:

    1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.

    2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!

    I'm 100% with you on both points, even more so on the second one... MiGs are excellent platforms for upgrading, and India already has not only the planes in their inventory, but the knowledge for good maintenance as well.
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    Post  Mike E Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:18 pm

    ricky123 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:So they may not get the Rafale and instead get the Eurofighter?

    God India, just choose already.

    the thing is they say Germany is giving some 50% discount . which makes the offer very tempting

    according to EFT consortium every country is supposed to order certain number of fighters .if they dont they will have to pay a fine .

    all of the countries involved in EFT have cut down on the orders .but if they get the indian order they can save the money . hence the discount .

    does any1 else has any related news ?

    16 will be "used", so that helps lower the cost. Also, as these units will be downgraded (export models), the price better be cheaper!

    That is unusual, but I assume that Germany already ordered all of the required planes.

    I've seen news on the subject, but nothing new...
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    Post  Viktor Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:55 pm

    Considering Paris upped offer by 10 or 20 bin Euros Im not surprised India is looking for something else. Perhaps now should be the perfect time to again offer 10bin $ MiG-35 deal to India

    considering India currency droped and they are not swimimng in money. They need to optimize and perhaps MiG-35 still has some chances. Funny thing however is that French

    still dont have the deal in their hands after so many years.
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    Post  ricky123 Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:50 pm

    Viktor wrote:Considering Paris upped offer by 10 or 20 bin Euros Im not surprised India is looking for something else. Perhaps now should be the perfect time to again offer 10bin $ MiG-35 deal to India

    considering India currency droped and they are not swimimng in money. They need to optimize and perhaps MiG-35 still has some chances. Funny thing however is that French

    still dont have the deal in their hands after so many years.
    WELL it is the french fault

    first they dint want hal as a partner cuz they already had some deals with reliance .then they made some issues with TOT and then with the price again
    plus refusing to deliver the ships to russia has also put thier credibilty at risk as a reliable supplier

    India was ready to sign this deal but last ditch effort from germany has complicated things . if germany really gives a discount of 3-4 billion dollars , india cannot say no ..cuz if u look EFT and rafael both had been selected ,only on the life cycle cost rafael got the upperhand as been cheaper and got L1 status , but if germany can offer a better Deal .then EFT which also had cleared all the IAF trails can also be preffered ...
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    Post  ricky123 Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:51 pm



    Mig was not rdy at that time .. and i am not sure what mig can offer which rafael or EFT cannot ..so i really dont think MIG35 has any chance in this ..
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    Post  Viktor Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:36 pm

    If the price thing is what counts again than we are back to MiG-35 again and its a winner. With full ToT and all.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:12 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Furthermore, the euro-canard model are quite capable 4th gen. As far as I know, EU Typhoon is the plane with highest maneverability in the West. Some website put the Typhoon in the 1st position. The 2nd of course is Russia's idol Su-35.

    I never said it wasn't good, but as you said, it is a 4th gen aircraft with limited upgrade capabilities... At least the MiG-35 and SU-35 have that capability.

    And MiG and Su are fairly cheap. This is the talent of Russia, they manage to create things with very good capability but much less cost, i.e. very cost-effective.

    That is just one of their advantages... MiG and Sukhoi have both shown how quickly and efficiently they can upgrade those planes so they remain effective, the EF has not.

    Ironically enough India stands to lose more than gain by going with either Rafales or Typhoons, the Mig-35's true advantages:

    1.) Hundreds of millions of Dollars saved in logistics (bare minimum), many of the parts and spares could be shared between Mig-35's and existing Mig-29's in the inventory of the IAF.

    2.) Massive modernization potential for existing Mig-29's in IAF inventory, 75-90% chance that many of the Mig-35's advancements could be installed on their Mig-29's so the potential of having one of the largest AESA and TVC equipped fighter inventories in the world is quite possible if India goes this route!

    LOL, was down voted for this post, I don't know why because it's pretty much true.
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:58 am

    Hmm, probably RTN or a different troll...

    The news about the Vladivostok is pretty big... It seems like Russia will receive the ships, and at a lowered cost!
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:00 am

    Viktor wrote:If the price thing is what counts again than we are back to MiG-35 again and its a winner. With full ToT and all.
    Cost plus the fact that India already has MiGs, and is familiar with them.

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