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    Indian MMRCA competition: News

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    Austin


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    Post  Austin Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:12 am

    One of the reason why Russia wont win many but just few contracts if at all , is because the current ruling government is very pro-US to the extent that they even risked Government to sign 123 Agreement with the US and others.

    I personally do not see russia winning many deals with the present government in power , even if these products are good and cheap.

    As far as pakistan goes they are already selling then transport helicopters , RD-93 engines for JF-17 etc , Russia want to have a relationship with Pakistan because once US/NATO leaves Afganistan , Pakistan will play a major role there and a bad relationship with Russia would mean more of Afganistan Drugs and Terrorism problem lying in CIS/Russia foot steps.

    Russia also wants to balance its relationship with Pakistan becuase its a nuclear power and after reallignment of relationship between India and US , Moscow is willing to talk to pakistan without the Indian angle bothering them.
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    Post  nightcrawler Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:01 pm

    As far as pakistan goes they are already selling then transport helicopters , RD-93 engines for JF-17 etc , Russia want to have a relationship with Pakistan because once US/NATO leaves Afganistan , Pakistan will play a major role there and a bad relationship with Russia would mean more of Afganistan Drugs and Terrorism problem lying in CIS/Russia foot steps.

    Russia also wants to balance its relationship with Pakistan becuase its a nuclear power and after reallignment of relationship between India and US , Moscow is willing to talk to pakistan without the Indian angle bothering them.

    Great post Austin even the Moscow think tanks believe that Pakistan must be given due concentration from Moscow in its role in South East Asia which also extends to Middle East. I don't know why people keep recalling Cold war thing again & again; when we have learnt that their were mistakes the result of which we have been facing since 9/11. We need Moscow support in building infra-structure & such...
    Be it not defence deals there are other factors of engineering we need Moscow. India has shown how it can diverse its defence machinery then why can't Moscow learn from it with respect to Pakistan!
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:06 am

    I personally do not see russia winning many deals with the present government in power , even if these products are good and cheap.

    That is the problem with democracy... mood swings worse than any girlfriend you have ever had. And of course the problem that if you haven't completed negotiations before the elections you might have to start again with a new lot...

    Having said that Russia and India have invested a lot of time and energy in each other... it seems a shame to waste it because a new government clearly likes the larger bribes they are likely getting from the US.

    If Russia turns away from India when a friendly government gets in how will they feel about Russia selling Mig-35s to Pakistan? How will they feel about Russia selling Su-35s to Pakistan? Or S-300 systems etc.

    The current trade is minimal... Hip helos in civilian models and the RD-93... which is actually an early model RD-33 modified especially for the Chinese. The Russians have no domestic use for the RD-93 so of course they are going to agree to sell it to the Chinese who will sell it on to Pakistan.

    There have been rumours of India working with Sukhoi on the KS-172 long range AAM, perhaps Pakistan would like to buy some old Mig-31s with R-37s and R-77s.

    I think India would not mind Russian sales to Pakistan as long as they don't effect the current balance. I think the weapon systems Pakistan will want to buy however will be the systems they can't get from the US... like Yakhont and Flankers.

    Of course buying ATAKA missiles for their UCAVs would be useful because the weapon has good performance without wire guidance and already includes HE FRAG warhead versions.

    I don't know why people keep recalling Cold war thing again & again; when we have learnt that their were mistakes the result of which we have been facing since 9/11. We need Moscow support in building infra-structure & such...

    Moscow has experience at rebuilding cities... look at Grozny... the problem is that Pakistan was part of the problem in Chechnya as was Saudi Arabia and the west as well... so it really is not just a cold war thing.

    With respect I can understand with drone attacks from the US that is supposed to be your ally you might be reconsidering your relationships, but there are large and powerful elements in Pakistan that support the Taleban and the Chechen rebels.
    Pakistan needs to sit down and have a good think about its future... will it be with the US and/or Russia or the wahhabists... because neither Russia nor the US like the wahhabists and vice versa.

    Be it not defence deals there are other factors of engineering we need Moscow. India has shown how it can diverse its defence machinery then why can't Moscow learn from it with respect to Pakistan!

    A valid point. Russia does not want to become dependent on energy exports to survive... it would also benefit her to have a much broader range of military export customers too. Perhaps it should start with economic trade... Russia should look at high tech stuff that will benefit isolated areas... like self contained power generation systems that are clean and reliable for remote population centres... Pakistan and India would both benefit from such things and remote settlements in Russia will also benefit too.

    Pakistan will play a major role there and a bad relationship with Russia would mean more of Afganistan Drugs and Terrorism problem lying in CIS/Russia foot steps.

    Actually I disagree. Pakistan will have a big role to play in the future of Afghanistan, but even if everything goes t!ts up and somehow the Taleban take over they have a proven record of being more anti drug than the US. The Taleban dealt with the poppy fields much more effectively and efficiently than any regime since.
    This sort of result will be terrible for the Afghan people as they remain in a time bubble isolated from the rest of the world and living in the 1700s, but it is their choice. They could have supported the Soviets in the 1980s, or the west in the 2000s, but they have clearly chosen their own. Let them live with their choice... it is not the position of Russia to impose a choice like that on another country... that is what they learned in the 1980s.
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    Post  f-insas Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:33 am

    most probably it will be rafale ,as the french do not attach any string to the contract besides full tot transfer ,and allso promiss us to count as a partner in naval version rafale design


    Last edited by f-insas on Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : m)
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    Post  sheytanelkebir Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    We also get F-16 Bl/52Ds...& will be getting further upgraded models...all with the stamps: NOT TO USE AGAINST INDIA

    but really who cares
    I am sure the story will be that PAK airforce F-16s were innocently flying near a target in Pakistan that India happened to be attacking and an Indian aircraft attacked the F-16s which had to defend themselves... what choice did they have?

    I mean the west was perfectly happy to believe Suck Arse Milli Vanili that the Russians invaded Georgia in 2008...  Rolling Eyes
    From what I read about Egyptian F16s they are actually incapable of "firing on" aircraft that the IFF deems "friendly". I am not sure if there is a way to "override" that or not... But its the reason the Egyptians are keeping their Mirage 2000s and looking for NON-US interceptors.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:12 pm

    I am not sure if there is a way to "override" that or not...
    IFF systems generally have a set of codes that can be and will be changed on a regular basis to prevent the enemy learning the codes and emulating them.

    An "enemy" aircraft in an F-16 will appear as enemy as long as their IFF system is not sending the current correct IFF code, so unless they know it they will appear as enemy or unknown.

    Whether the missiles they carry can distinguish a friendly aircraft or not is another matter as another safety feature an AMRAAM locked on an F-16 might develop a fault that makes it break lock at the last second and miss or the warhead fuse might fail to detonate the warhead till the missile is past the target or detonate it prematurely before the missile gets close.

    During the Vietnam war it was found the SA-2 was not as successful as it could have been because the large RCS of the B-52 targets led to the explosive warheads exploding too far from the aircraft to get a reliable kill because of the proximity fuse settings.
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    Post  sheytanelkebir Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I am not sure if there is a way to "override" that or not...
    IFF systems generally have a set of codes that can be and will be changed on a regular basis to prevent the enemy learning the codes and emulating them.

    An "enemy" aircraft in an F-16 will appear as enemy as long as their IFF system is not sending the current correct IFF code, so unless they know it they will appear as enemy or unknown.

    Whether the missiles they carry can distinguish a friendly aircraft or not is another matter as another safety feature an AMRAAM locked on an F-16 might develop a fault that makes it break lock at the last second and miss or the warhead fuse might fail to detonate the warhead till the missile is past the target or detonate it prematurely before the missile gets close.

    During the Vietnam war it was found the SA-2 was not as successful as it could have been because the large RCS of the B-52 targets led to the explosive warheads exploding too far from the aircraft to get a reliable kill because of the proximity fuse settings.
    During the 1991 war Iraqi Mirage F1s were singularly incapable of "launching" radar guided AAMs (super 530F) against western aircraft. No such issues with the Russian planes. The issue of the US/western restrictions on weapons exported to certain countries, and what sort of "backdoors" are built in by design (embedded within the microprocessors / microcontrollers of missiles and weapons system computers) are slightly "mysterious"... but even turkey for example have decided to develop their own "mission computer" for the F16s they operate. The embedded systems in these aircraft are a "black box" to their operators. They don't know what the "configuration" of the weapons computers are and will only "find out" if trying to use the weapon in anger (by which time its too late, on a strategic level, to rearm with aircraft from another supplier).
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    Post  GarryB Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:07 am

    That wont be part of the IFF system, it will be amongst the software for the weapons or the radar... it might even be an uploadable thing where the Iraqi aircraft receive a signal from the French for the missiles to fail to achieve lock to prevent them being used against coalition aircraft.
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    Post  Sujoy Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:55 pm

    After loosing the MMRCA contract , Hillary Clinton ordered State Department to revive Khalistani terrorism in INDIA

    http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/obama-quietly-reverses-hillarys-get-modi-policy
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    Post  mack8 Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:36 pm

    Why am i not surprised, probably that's only the tip of the iceberg anyway. Few things the US would love more than to transform India into  another one of their puppets, and the biggest one at that. The indian public should be made aware of these US "policies" through every possible means. If India becomes a US puppet, it will be split into numerous little states, easy to dominate and making sure they won't pose a threat to their hegemonic ambitions anymore... as it is today, India has the chance to become the world's fourth superpower, and the americans would really, really hate that happening, don't forget that.
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    Post  Dima Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:03 pm

    The strategy of US against Russia has been to cut off revenues coming from their exports (which mainly are Oil, Gas and Military hardware) and starve the Russian mil industries to turn to Government support which will in turn put pressure on budget and force the Russian Govt to either cut back on military spending and R&D or neglect other social/national programmes.

    This has been the case for the last 10-15 years and have been very successful in India where America is armed with a very effective army of agents in the Government; media (not a single independent main stream media now, with even "The Hindu" now in pocket); ex-military guys from Airforce, Navy & Army doing the effective work of deriding the Russian hardware when out of office and when in office creating/delaying projects of Russian origin and favouring the western platforms; and an enormous bunch of Indian lapdogs making a living on American money and those grown up with an obsession for the TV screens.

    This have been the case with all big ticket items that we saw in the last decade when the same could have been bought from the Russian side with an Indian investment and a guaranteed returns for the investment.   

    Even in the case of MMRCA there was sort of bias against the Russian offer and even though it may look very fair with no parallel....it doesn't have to be like that. Its a known secret that there is a section in all branch of services that favours western military stuffs and Airforce is no different. The dogfight over Indian skies did not start with MMRCA deal and it was always there as fighter pilots usually have big egos and its takes a lifettime for some of them to let go their loss in combat to their collegues in another aircraft. That would be no different in the case of Mirage-2000 guys who had to face-off with their MiG-29 counterparts.

    To cite one example ...there has been on Indian TV "Pudding" Ahluwalia (a former Mirage-2000 pilot) in companion with American/European salesman, a former tankman, deriding the Russian products and in particular the MiG-29s. Now this, as I understand, has nothing to do with the lack of  of the Russian jets, but basically has to do with his unforgiving nature to the machine that handed him his ar$e multiple times when in service. So what he was doing is beating the shit out of MiG-29 and its new variants in TV studios knowing fully well that he can never beat the MiG-29s piloted by any competent pilot with his beloved Mirage-2000. But it also does not have to be the single reason for favouring western jets because western business presents a good financial returns for its agents.

    So what could be the case with MMRCA tests?
    RAC-MiG have been stating that their machine performed well in high altitude, the demo radar was found good etc. But the media painted a different picture and so did the machine did not take the cut into the final list.

    Maybee the results and point distribution was very fair........ but what about the entire lot of the service personnel that oversaw and was involved the entire process .....what is their background? What fighters were they flying in the past - Mirage-2000, Jaguar, MiG-27, MiG-21?
    It would be really an eye opener if the basic background of these persons (barring their identity) have been made public so that one can close even the slightest doubt of any bias in the selection process for MMRCA.


    Whatever it may...its really high time for Russia to advise India to pick one...either US or Russia and do exactly what US does...pressure India to buy Russian military hardware (not substandard or under specifications, but as per genuine Indian specifications).
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    Post  GarryB Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:16 am

    A source in the Indian Defence Ministry said that India was “watching the developments closely.” The source added it was too early to say if this would factor into the government’s decision to sign a contract. “When such a large amount of money is paid and then a supplier uses geopolitics to delay or suspend deliveries, it does raise eyebrows,” the source, who was not authorised to talk to the media, said. The Indian Ministry of Defence could not be immediately reached for official comment.
    India is continuing its final negotiations for acquiring 126 French Rafale fighters in a deal that would cost around $22 billion. France’s Dassault Aviation won a bid to supply India with Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircrafts and a final contract is being dubbed as the “mother of all deals,” by many sections of the Indian media. Russia, Britain, the U.S. and Sweden have all made attempts to re-enter the race to sell their aircrafts.
    Indian Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha told the Hindustan Times that a deal for the Rafale is “going to happen soon.” Industry watchers in Delhi however say that there will be growing pressure to reconsider France given the volte-face the country made this week when it came to the supply of the Mistral ships to Russia.

    Sorry for off topic... but I predicted there was no way the French could win the MRCA with Rafale and come in at $10 billion dollars... for that sort of money they could have had 200 MiG-35s and 100 upgraded MiG-29UPGs and still had change... yet they complain about their new carrier costing $2.4 billion including air wing!!! The MRCA is 12 billion over budget and no one says anything...

    Personally I think this will all blow over... if the French president was going to cancel it would be easier to just do it now. Postponing the handing over is clearly just about holding off the Americans and the Brits for the time being.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:Personally I think this will all blow over... if the French president was going to cancel it would be easier to just do it now. Postponing the handing over is clearly just about holding off the Americans and the Brits for the time being.

    Agreed.  I think there would be practically zero chance that France will cancel the Mistral, especially now that the Ukie junta has been given a good pasting and what appears to be a lasting cease-fire is now in place (and attributable mostly to Russian diplomacy).  Hollande is a coward as exhibited by his gutlessness in face of US/UK whining, but the craven cheese-eating surrender-monkey (I love that phrase) is more scared of angry French shipyard workers than he is of corpulent US Senators and their limey Cameronite quislings...

    Still, the Gauls need a good bitch-slap to teach them a lesson.  Maybe building 2-3 more in Russian yards, and then selling cut-price variants to Frances traditional arms customers would send the correct message...
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    Post  Mike E Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    A source in the Indian Defence Ministry said that India was “watching the developments closely.” The source added it was too early to say if this would factor into the government’s decision to sign a contract. “When such a large amount of money is paid and then a supplier uses geopolitics to delay or suspend deliveries, it does raise eyebrows,” the source, who was not authorised to talk to the media, said. The Indian Ministry of Defence could not be immediately reached for official comment.
    India is continuing its final negotiations for acquiring 126 French Rafale fighters in a deal that would cost around $22 billion. France’s Dassault Aviation won a bid to supply India with Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircrafts and a final contract is being dubbed as the “mother of all deals,” by many sections of the Indian media.  Russia, Britain, the U.S. and Sweden have all made attempts to re-enter the race to sell their aircrafts.
    Indian Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha told the Hindustan Times that a deal for the Rafale is “going to happen soon.” Industry watchers in Delhi however say that there will be growing pressure to reconsider France given the volte-face the country made this week when it came to the supply of the Mistral ships to Russia.

    Sorry for off topic... but I predicted there was no way the French could win the MRCA with Rafale and come in at $10 billion dollars... for that sort of money they could have had 200 MiG-35s and 100 upgraded MiG-29UPGs and still had change... yet they complain about their new carrier costing $2.4 billion including air wing!!! The MRCA is 12 billion over budget and no one says anything...

    Personally I think this will all blow over... if the French president was going to cancel it would be easier to just do it now. Postponing the handing over is clearly just about holding off the Americans and the Brits for the time being.
    How I'd love to see it cancelled... Twisted Evil  InAF would have been nicely equipped with those MiGs, and more resources could be put to other projects including their carriers...
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    Post  Mike E Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:57 pm

    fragmachine wrote:Imo Russia doesn't need those mistrals. If France would cancel this deal then Russia would receive surplus money.Also, India would then cancel it's deal for overpriced Rafale and get Russian MIGs.
    That would be great (the money), but it is not guaranteed that India would cancel their deal...
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    Post  Mike E Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:27 pm

    This isn't 100% relevant, but it has something to do with the possible Rafale cancellation...

    India Considers Buying 126 Eurofighters From Germany


    MOSCOW, September 8 (RIA Novosti) - India may acquire 126 Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft from Germany, Deutsche Presse-Agentur reported Monday.
    Indian and German officials are once again negotiating a multibillion-dollar deal for the delivery of 126 German-made fighter jets to India, the agency reported, citing German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier.
    India and Germany previously discussed a similar deal, but India decided against the Eurofighter jets in 2012 and chose to acquire French-produced Dassault Rafale combat aircraft instead. However, an agreement has not been reached so far.
    The value of the possible contract is estimated at 7.6 billion euro (about $9.8 billion), according to the agency. Eurofighters are produced by the Bavaria-based Eurofighter GmbH company.
    Steinmeier is currently in India, where he has been in talks with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj. The topics under discussion were trade, investment, high tech cooperation and renewable energy collaboration, according to the Indian Ministry of External Affairs.
     
    - It seems like the Eurofighters would either replace, or supplement the Rafales... I would be very disappointed if this goes through!

    I doubt France would completely cancel the deal... It seems like it will be a simple delay and that is it.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:11 am

    Still, the Gauls need a good bitch-slap to teach them a lesson. Maybe building 2-3 more in Russian yards, and then selling cut-price variants to Frances traditional arms customers would send the correct message...

    I disagree... good future relations with France is worth rather more than the short term satisfaction of getting revenge... a wisdom that is well beyond the US administration.

    If France talks openly about what it will do in the future should Russian behaviour not meet their requirements then Russia can simply think about that for a bit and work out some reaction to these threatened sanctions that will hurt France rather more than it will hurt Russia or her Navy.

    Remember Russia was supposed to get its first carrier this year and its next next year so one can assume that port facilities and support equipment are already in place to allow their operation and training.

    Lots of investment for nothing... if you don't want to spend money don't have carriers... if you want a blue water navy you need air cover/support.

    Imo Russia doesn't need those mistrals. If France would cancel this deal then Russia would receive surplus money.Also, India would then cancel it's deal for overpriced Rafale and get Russian MIGs.

    Despite my hopes the Rafale was chosen because it wasn't Russian and they don't want all their important aircraft to come from one country.

    If Rafale gets cut it will likely be German produced Typhoons...

    http://en.ria.ru/business/20140908/192746713/India-Considers-Buying-126-Eurofighters-From-Germany.html

    126 Typhoons for $9.8 Billion is less than half the price...

    - It seems like the Eurofighters would either replace, or supplement the Rafales... I would be very disappointed if this goes through!

    I doubt France would completely cancel the deal... It seems like it will be a simple delay and that is it.

    The MRCA was for 126 planes... if they buy 126 Typhoons that means 0 Rafales.

    They don't seem to care about standardisation... perhaps a 50/50 split of Typhoons and Rafales and later if they develop EM cats they could look at naval Rafales too.
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    Post  higurashihougi Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:44 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Still, the Gauls need a good bitch-slap to teach them a lesson.  Maybe building 2-3 more in Russian yards, and then selling cut-price variants to Frances traditional arms customers would send the correct message...

    Off topic a bit, but if we want to find any Gauls, we should go to Scotland, Ireland or Wales rather than France.

    The so-called "Gaul" in France land today is a small penisula named Bretagne aka Brittiany.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:26 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Still, the Gauls need a good bitch-slap to teach them a lesson.  Maybe building 2-3 more in Russian yards, and then selling cut-price variants to Frances traditional arms customers would send the correct message...

    I disagree... good future relations with France is worth rather more than the short term satisfaction of getting revenge... a wisdom that is well beyond the US administration.

    Unfortunately you are right, but it's nice to dream of a little cold revenge Twisted Evil I have to say I am HUGELY dissappointed with arse-licker Hollande.  I never would have expected that I would hate that man as such as the perfidious rat Sarkozy.  It's interesting to consider how things may have been different had Dominique Strauss Kahn manged to avoid the blatant honey-trap in New York that succeeded in ruining his political career.  Would he have been such a pathetic doormat as the current squatter inhabiting the Elysee Palace?
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    Post  Mike E Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:50 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Still, the Gauls need a good bitch-slap to teach them a lesson.  Maybe building 2-3 more in Russian yards, and then selling cut-price variants to Frances traditional arms customers would send the correct message...

    I disagree... good future relations with France is worth rather more than the short term satisfaction of getting revenge... a wisdom that is well beyond the US administration.

    If France talks openly about what it will do in the future should Russian behaviour not meet their requirements then Russia can simply think about that for a bit and work out some reaction to these threatened sanctions that will hurt France rather more than it will hurt Russia or her Navy.

    Remember Russia was supposed to get its first carrier this year and its next next year so one can assume that port facilities and support equipment are already in place to allow their operation and training.

    Lots of investment for nothing... if you don't want to spend money don't have carriers... if you want a blue water navy you need air cover/support.

    Imo Russia doesn't need those mistrals. If France would cancel this deal then Russia would receive surplus money.Also, India would then cancel it's deal for overpriced Rafale and get Russian MIGs.

    Despite my hopes the Rafale was chosen because it wasn't Russian and they don't want all their important aircraft to come from one country.

    If Rafale gets cut it will likely be German produced Typhoons...

    http://en.ria.ru/business/20140908/192746713/India-Considers-Buying-126-Eurofighters-From-Germany.html

    126 Typhoons for $9.8 Billion is less than half the price...

    - It seems like the Eurofighters would either replace, or supplement the Rafales... I would be very disappointed if this goes through!

    I doubt France would completely cancel the deal... It seems like it will be a simple delay and that is it.

    The MRCA was for 126 planes... if they buy 126 Typhoons that means 0 Rafales.

    They don't seem to care about standardisation... perhaps a 50/50 split of Typhoons and Rafales and later if they develop EM cats they could look at naval Rafales too.

    Buying the EF would be a huge mistake... Hopefully they can come to their senses!
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:38 pm

    Mike E wrote:Buying the EF would be a huge mistake... Hopefully they can come to their senses!
    Please clarify Mike.
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:58 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Buying the EF would be a huge mistake... Hopefully they can come to their senses!
    Please clarify Mike.
    No problem...

    It would;

    A) Cost more... They could buy more MiG-35 or Su-35 etc for the money. (Though it would cost less than the Rafale.)

    B) The EF, while not a bad jet, isn't close to being the *best* jet as of now. Many people agree that the Rafale (among others) is superior to the EF.

    C) While it is good not to put all your eggs in one basket (by buying more Russian jets) it is just as bad if not worse to buy polar opposites. The EF would need completely different mechanics, maybe even pilots, not to mention that they probably already have the Rafale's mechanic/pilot problem etc fixed. Heck, they couldn't use most of their (mainly Russian based) armaments on the jet!

    D) Not really to do with India themselves, but the West has been shaky when it comes to weapon sales and deliveries lately. It was their influence that caused the delay of the Mistral.

    E) The avionics would be severely downgraded coming from Germany, more so than what Russia would do.

    F) It has had reliability problems in the past, most of which have been expensive to fix/repair.

    G) This may sound ridiculous, but... The EF's design really isn't all that great and is beginning to age. - It really is a "no-frills" fighter, and that isn't a good thing for India... - No thrust vectoring of any kind, engines aren't all that powerful, basic delta wing configuration etc.

    Finally, the deal is just a proposal.
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:26 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Buying the EF would be a huge mistake... Hopefully they can come to their senses!
    Please clarify Mike.
    No problem...

    It would;

    A) Cost more... They could buy more MiG-35 or Su-35 etc for the money. (Though it would cost less than the Rafale.)

    B) The EF, while not a bad jet, isn't close to being the *best* jet as of now. Many people agree that the Rafale (among others) is superior to the EF.

    C) While it is good not to put all your eggs in one basket (by buying more Russian jets) it is just as bad if not worse to buy polar opposites. The EF would need completely different mechanics, maybe even pilots, not to mention that they probably already have the Rafale's mechanic/pilot problem etc fixed. Heck, they couldn't use most of their (mainly Russian based) armaments on the jet!

    D) Not really to do with India themselves, but the West has been shaky when it comes to weapon sales and deliveries lately. It was their influence that caused the delay of the Mistral.

    E) The avionics would be severely downgraded coming from Germany, more so than what Russia would do.

    F) It has had reliability problems in the past, most of which have been expensive to fix/repair.

    G) This may sound ridiculous, but... The EF's design really isn't all that great and is beginning to age. - It really is a "no-frills" fighter, and that isn't a good thing for India... - No thrust vectoring of any kind, engines aren't all that powerful, basic delta wing configuration etc.

    Finally, the deal is just a proposal.
    Thx Mike.
    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:30 pm

    I see a big political problem that will directly impact military capability in logistical (spare parts, cost,maintenance and long term contracts for surveys and training) will be harmed by politics which are forced upon the vassal countries France and Germany. When India is going for any of those aircrafts it will have to bow down to the west when (not if, just when the time comes) they start trying to pressure India against Russia and China and use this jets as a leverage. Not the first time that happend we see it with Mistrals, that will directly impact on Indias EF/Rafaels and therefor they will have to decide be a bitch for some birds that are overprized and not best in their class or lose the entire thing and stay in their camp which they are right now.

    Why would someone knowingly choose a product that will most probably used against him as a blackmail attempt?
    MIC and Military bribed lobbyists need their arses kicked.
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:34 pm

    Werewolf wrote:I see a big political problem that will directly impact military capability in logistical (spare parts, cost,maintenance and long term contracts for surveys and training) will be harmed by politics which are forced upon the vassal countries France and Germany. When India is going for any of those aircrafts it will have to bow down to the west when (not if, just when the time comes) they start trying to pressure India against Russia and China and use this jets as a leverage. Not the first time that happend we see it with Mistrals, that will directly impact on Indias EF/Rafaels and therefor they will have to decide be a bitch for some birds that are overprized and not best in their class or lose the entire thing and stay in their camp which they are right now.

    Why would someone knowingly choose a product that will most probably used against him as a blackmail attempt?
    MIC and Military bribed lobbyists need their arses kicked.
    That too... Without help from the West, the EFs would be sitting ducks that can't fight back...

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