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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

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    GarryB
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:53 am

    Russia isn't annexing the Crimea... the Crimean people are getting to vote themselves.

    The West will say what they want to say, but eventually they will find that they invest in Russia because there is money to be made... they are not investing in Russia to help Russia... they do it to make money and if they want to impose sanctions then other countries can take their place and make that money instead.

    the west are hypocrites and the sooner that Putin shows them the finger and does what is best for the Russian people and the people of Crimea the better.

    the west can btch and moan all it likes but it has done far worse and is doing far worse around the world right now and is in no place to criticise.

    the more the Russians diversify away from the US and west the better, but Germany and France and many other countries are clearly more pragmatic... now is the time to listen to what each country is saying... it is a good gauge for Russia so they can determine who to have dealings with and who to screw at every opportunity because they will never be friends.

    If they are by themselves, then sure they would survive, and Russia will protect them - but they will end up as little more than a large Pridnestrovie, and will end up as a big drag on Russia.

    I don't totally agree... with proper investment and lots of ship building contracts from Russia and I think they have plenty of potential to grow and be productive... the fact that they have not been fruitful under the Ukraine is not an indicator of real potential, and Austerity measures demanded by the EU wont help them either.


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    flamming_python
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:40 am

    Latest achievement of Ukrainian democracy



    The Junta forces detained another people's leader, this time in Lugansk.
    Humiliated him quite a bit, got him to confess to being a patriot of the Ukraine, who never spoke out in favour of inviting the Russian military or separating from the Ukraine Smile
    Hell he was protesting his innocence as soon as the first man entered the room.

    Well, not that I want to be in his position or anything, but it's a little funny how people fold under pressure.
    Don't remember the Maidanists being anything other than brainwashed in their convictions and ready to go to prison, even die for their ideas.
    If all the East can come up with is people like this; then they'll never achieve anything.

    Ultimately it's all gonna backfire on them. The East is passive but even they have their limits. And if Russia attacks; well then all these arrests won't save the Kiev authorities.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Austin on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:00 pm

    Some statistics for Kerry who can say with a Straight Face "You just don't invade another country on phony pretext"

    If he was not the Secretary of State he could have won the Oscar for Best Actor  Laughing

    US Sponsored Genocide Against Iraq 1990-2012. Killed 3.3 Million, Including 750,000 Children

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:29 pm

    It's a shame we ourselves are all so opinionated on the fate of large country like a cabal of haughty imperialists.
    Nothing sadder than to see a nation self-destruct itself. Let's hope that however this ends, it doesn't end with a bang.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:33 pm

    Escobar warns of Tartar extremists in Crimea (like I predicted):


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:43 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Sunset in Simferopol, Crimea  russia 


    Hmmm, I just noticed the sunset looks like the Russian flag.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:23 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Latest achievement of Ukrainian democracy



    The Junta forces detained another people's leader, this time in Lugansk.
    Humiliated him quite a bit, got him to confess to being a patriot of the Ukraine, who never spoke out in favour of inviting the Russian military or separating from the Ukraine Smile
    Hell he was protesting his innocence as soon as the first man entered the room.

    Well, not that I want to be in his position or anything, but it's a little funny how people fold under pressure.
    Don't remember the Maidanists being anything other than brainwashed in their convictions and ready to go to prison, even die for their ideas.
    If all the East can come up with is people like this; then they'll never achieve anything.

    Ultimately it's all gonna backfire on them. The East is passive but even they have their limits. And if Russia attacks; well then all these arrests won't save the Kiev authorities.

    Update on this guy



    He was driven around for about half an hour tied up in the back of a minivan before being taken back to the city. All sorts of threats were made against him and his familly, apparently the parliament deputy Luzhko (guy who was grabbing and talking with him the previous vid) said that from now on he controls the city and this is how they will treat all dissenters, etc...
    And also apparently thanks to the intervention of the saem governor this activist tried to oust; he was saved from a flight to imprisonment in Kiev.

    Anyway dunno how true it all is, but either way this guys has now armed himself, ostensibly to defend himself and his family, and advised everyone else to do the same to cheers and approval.

    Some of the comment exchanges are pretty funny too:  Very Happy 

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:06 pm

    So, who is in control of Lugansk now?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:50 pm

    With all this talk about Ukraine joining NATO, Putin still has cards up his sleeve...And by that I mean his trump cards are putting ICBM bases in Algeria (pointing at European NATO) and Cuba (pointing at USA). There was a news story coming out of Russia about Russia deploying more foreign bases conveniently around the time when the fascist coup govt. announced plans to expand cooperation with NATO , foreshadowing future possibilities:

    http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140226/187917901/Russia-Seeks-Several-Military-Bases-Abroad--Defense-Minister.html

    Putin could draw a red line in the sand by saying if Ukraine joins NATO that means Russian mobile ICBM's in Algeria and in Cuba, and unlike building a ABM base in Ukraine deploying mobile ICBM's to Cuba and Algeria could take 1-2 weeks to arrive while the ABM base will take years to build and would be vulnerable to tactical Iskander-M strike.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  zg18 on Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:03 pm

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/liamhalligan/10685267/Threats-against-Russia-are-stuck-in-the-past.html

    Threats against Russia are stuck in past

    I’ve been struck in recent days by the growing gulf between conflicting points of view towards the crisis in Crimea. I’m not referring to the firmly held differences in opinion between respective governments in London and Washington on the one hand and Moscow on the other.
    What I have in mind, after numerous conversations and broadcasts about Russia and Ukraine over the last week and having closely followed events in this region for many years, is the polarisation of opinion within the West itself
    .
    As far as our politicians and diplomats are concerned, Russia remains the Cold War enemy, our implacable foe, where little or nothing has changed since the US President Ronald Reagan dubbed the Soviet Union “the evil empire”. Never mind that the USSR collapsed almost a quarter of a century ago, or that it was 31 years ago that Reagan made that speech.

    Who cares if post-Soviet Russia has transformed itself, via the chaos of the 1990s, from a closed, sclerotic, planned economy based on armaments and commodities, into a nascent capitalist society, well-integrated into global commerce and, unlike any other large emerging market, with a fully-open capital account?

    One constantly reads the Russian economy is based on nothing but oil and gas. Really? As the world’s largest producer of hydrocarbons, and with monster reserves that are relatively cheap to access, Russia is clearly an energy superpower. But the production of hydrocarbons, having been 45pc of national income back in the late 1990s, has fallen to 16pc today – lower than Norway.

    Over the last 15 years, Russia’s GDP has expanded ten-fold in dollar terms, from $200bn (£119bn) to more than $2 trillion – creating the eighth-largest economy on earth, or sixth on a PPP basis – adjusting currencies for purchasing power – which puts it ahead of the UK and France. The energy sector, contrary to the stereotypes, has grown rather slowly during this period.

    Far from oil and gas, it’s been transport and infrastructure, agriculture, retail trade and financial services that have led the charge, all of them expanding much faster than energy production. Russia’s service sector, almost non-existent in Soviet times, is now a staggering three-fifths of GDP, outstripping oil and gas almost four-fold.

    Defence spending, having been heavily curtailed, is now half that of China and a mere eighth that of the US. And while opposing Western intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan (as did much of the rest of the world, including fellow UN Security Council member China), Russia has anyway remained a staunch Western ally, in terms of logistics and information sharing, during the “war on terror”.

    For denizens of Westminster, Whitehall and (especially) Capitol Hill none of that matters. “Soviet Russia” is a belligerent, oil-and gas-soaked monolith, intent on reigniting Cold War hostilities.

    Such a mindset seems compulsory among Western political and diplomatic classes, a badge of honour. To think of Russia in any other way, to show a detailed knowledge of the country’s economy or post-Soviet history, to state the undeniable importance of our commercial links, or even to refer to the seismic changes since the days of ghastly Soviet dictatorship, is to be seen as odd and even treacherous.

    I’m trying to get beyond the knee-jerk condemnations and allegations that are the stock-in-trade of megaphone diplomacy, to respond in a way that’s more fact-based, constructive and less likely to provoke military conflict than the tough-guy sabre rattling of high politics.

    When I say that Russia is one of the world’s most important economies, somewhat different from the days of Khrushchev, Brezhnev and Andropov, and presenting huge commercial opportunities, I’m expressing the views of numerous Western business leaders. Few will put their heads above the parapet, of course, but that doesn’t stop them being exasperated by our political posturing.

    This growing split between the West’s “official” position on Russia, and what knowledgeable business leaders want, is perfected illustrated in last week’s debate over sanctions.

    John Kerry condemned Russia’s actions in Crimea, where it has long had tens of thousands of soldiers legally stationed in Sevastopol and other military bases, as “a brazen act of aggression”. The US Secretary of State, backed by the Foreign Secretary, William Hague, then warned of harsh retaliation in the form of an economic squeeze.

    Threatening such sanctions was “pretty mad”, I argued on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme. Why? Well, partly because Western Europe’s trading links with Russia are now so strong that sanctions would be ruinously counterproductive and we would never go through with them. And pointless threats make us look weak.

    Everyone now knows that Russia supplies more than a third of Western Europe’s oil and gas, but few realise the extent of trade beyond that. Russia is the EU’s third-biggest trading partner, with combined cross-border commerce of $460bn last year. America’s trade with Russia was less than a twelfth of that; one reason why US sanction rhetoric is far stronger.

    Even in the States, though, there is now a strong corporate lobby that has invested very heavily in Russia. US thoroughbreds such as Ford, GM, Boeing, Procter & Gamble, Pepsi and John Deere have between them sunk tens of billions of dollars into Russia-based production facilities, as have several US oil majors.

    It was the power of such companies that eventually forced Congress in 2012 to remove its veto and agree Russia’s 18-year-old application to join the WTO, by far the longest wait in the multi-lateral’s long history.

    While UK trading links with Russia remain rather small, and largely focused on oil and gas, it’s the Russo-German commercial relationship that’s crucial. Ignoring the Anglo-Saxon rhetoric, and with great skill and determination, a myriad of German firms have built extremely lucrative trading links with their Russian counterparts over the last 20 years, the benefits of which are only just beginning.

    VW now has several full-cycle production plants and has become the middle-class brand of choice in what will soon be Europe’s largest car market. The likes of Siemens and engineering giant Liebherr are ubiquitous in Russia too, as are thousands of smaller, privately-owned German companies.

    Across Russia’s far-flung regions, the “Mittelstand” is extremely well represented in its huge Eastern neighbour, making and selling everything from machine tools to plasterboard.

    Russia is already Germany’s biggest single-country trading partner and such commerce is set to spiral as this country of 145m, well-educated in the scientific and technical disciplines many Western nations now lack, dusts itself down and continues the long process of rescuing its now low-tax and freewheeling economy from the days of Soviet neglect.

    This is one reason why Berlin is so opposed to sanctions and why it is Chancellor Angela Merkel who is best-placed to negotiate with Russia, and try to ease diplomatic tensions as this Crimean stand-off hopefully returns from the brink.

    Another source of Berlin’s strength, of course, is that Germany now has “Nord Stream”, its own bilateral gas pipeline to Russia, which makes it far less vulnerable to the vagaries of gas transit routes crossing Ukraine, upon which the rest of Western Europe relies.

    The US, and even Britain, may yet impose asset freezes on various shady post-Soviet industrialists. We’ve got to exercise serious caution here, too. While Russian individuals and firms had $160bn in foreign banks as of September 2013, according to the Bank for International Settlements, Western banks alone have $242bn of exposure to Russia.



    “The international community rounds on Russia”, screamed the headline of a leading Western business newspaper last week. Actually, in China, India, Brazil, and most of Africa and Asia, there’s an overwhelming sense of Western hypocrisy. So sanctions on Russia, already economically illiterate, make little diplomatic sense either.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  SOC on Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:25 am

    US destroyer goes to the Black Sea, Russian Bastion ASCMs go to Sevastopol (allegedly):

    http://defense-update.com/20140309_russia-welcomes-us-destroyer-truxtun-moving-bastion-anti-ship-missiles-crimea.html

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:00 am

    Willy Wimmer, former Parliamentary State Secretary to the Federal Minister of Defense in Germany sides with Russia on Ukraine crisis:



    http://www.larsschall.com/2014/03/07/there-has-been-a-coup-detat-in-the-ukraine/

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:06 am

    Saakashvilli got trolled on Maidan sq.




    Apparently he's there giving the Ukrainians advise on how to conduct operations against Russian forces.
    The only reason that he lost in South Ossetia is because his army was too small - or so he says.

    Operation Kiev: Saaka's last stand

    Really, if this didn't all have the potential for thousands of human casualties, it would be rather funny.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  TR1 on Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:09 am

    Saaka should give advice on how to best run away from imaginary Russian Su-25s.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:16 am

    C'mon baby, light my (Crimean) fire

    By Pepe Escobar

    March 16 is C Day. The Crimean parliament - by 78 votes with 8 abstentions - decided this is the day when Crimean voters will choose between joining the Russian Federation or to remain part of Ukraine as an autonomous region with very strong powers, according to the 1992 constitution.

    Whatever "diplomatic" tantrums Washington and Brussels will keep pulling, and they will be incandescent, facts on the ground speak for themselves. The city council of Sevastopol - the headquarters of Russia's Black Sea fleet - has already voted to join Russia. And next week the Duma in Moscow will study a bill to simplify the mechanism of adhesion.

    Quick recap: this is a direct result of Washington spending US$5 billion - a Victoria "F**k the EU" Nuland official figure - to promote



    regime change in Ukraine. On the horizon, Crimea may be incorporated into Russia for free, while the "West" absorbs that bankrupt back-of-beyond (Western Ukraine) that an Asia Times Online reader indelibly described as the "Khaganate of Nulands" (an amalgam of khanate, Victoria's notorious neo-con husband Robert Kagan, and no man's land).

    What Moscow regards as an illegal, neo-nazi infiltrated government in Kiev, led by Prime Minister Arseniy "Yats" Yatsenyuk - an Ukrainian Jewish banker playing the role of Western puppet - insists Crimea must remain part of Ukraine. And it's not only Moscow; half of Ukraine itself does not recognize the Yats gang as a legitimate government, now boasting a number of oligarchs imposed as provincial governors.

    Yet this "government" - supported by the US and the European Union - has already declared the referendum illegal. Proving its impeccable "democratic" credentials, it has already moved to ban the official use of the Russian language in Ukraine; get rid of the communist party, which amassed 13% of the votes in the last election, more, incidentally, than the neo-nazi-infested Svoboda ("Freedom") party, now ensconced in key government security posts; and ban a Russian TV station, which happens to be the most popular on Ukrainian cable.

    Amid all the hysteria from Washington and certain European capitals, what's not explained to puzzled public opinion is that these fascists/neo-nazis who got to power through a coup will never allow real elections to take place in Ukraine; after all they would most certainly be sent packing.

    This implies that "Yats" and his gang - on top of it reveling at their red carpet welcome at a pompous yet innocuous EU summit in Brussels - won't budge. For instance, they used heavy muscle to send pro-Russian protesters in front of the Donetsk government building running. Heavily industrialized Donetsk is very much linked commercially to Russia.

    Then there's an even more sinister possible scenario looming in the horizon; an instrumentalization of the lunatic jihadi fringe of the 10% of Tatars in Crimea, from false flags to suicide bombings. The House of Saud, according to a solid Saudi source, is immensely interested in Ukraine, and may be tempted to do a few favors for Western intelligence.

    Will our love become a funeral pyre?
    Arguably, for Moscow, keeping Crimea inside the Ukraine, with large autonomous powers plus the current signed agreement to keep the base in Sevastopol, is a much better deal than annexing it. It's as if Russia was annexing what for all practical purposes was already a Russian province.

    Yet the Kremlin may always decide not to annex, and use the all but certain result of the referendum as a key pawn in a complex negotiation with, not the EU, but fundamentally Germany. The EU is a mess. The "government" in Kiev is a mess. What matters is what Vladimir Putin is discussing over the phone with Angela Merkel.

    Much has to do with Pipelineistan - as in the 9 billion euro (US$12.4 billion) Nord Stream, the steel umbilical cord between Russia and Germany via the Baltic Sea. Merkel, the then Russian president Dmitri Medvedev, and former German chancellor and now Nord Stream chairman Gerhard Schroeder were very close when the pipeline project carrying Russian gas to Germany went online in 2011. The project was initially proposed in 2005 when Schroeder was chancellor and Putin was Russia's president, first time round. Schroeder, earlier this week, said that NATO should shut up.

    Moreover, two-way trade between Russia and the EU was around a whopping US$370 billion in 2012 (no 2013 data yet), with Russia exporting mostly oil, gas and cereals, and the EU exporting mostly cars, medicine, machine parts. Forget about sanctions, that sacrosanct Washington mantra; they are really bad for business.

    Moscow, though, has a real, tangible and very serious red line. It does not even have to bother about Ukraine in the EU because the overwhelming majority of Europeans don't want it as part of their club. The red line is North Atlantic Treaty Organization bases in Ukraine. Moscow might even compromise on Ukraine remaining a sort of Finland between Russia and Europe. With Crimea still inside the Ukraine, a NATO base side by side with the Russian base in Sevastopol would be nothing short of psychedelic.

    So a resolution in Crimea - whichever way it goes - does send a very clear message from Moscow to the "West". Watch our red line. And unlike others, we mean it, and we back it up with all we got.

    No time to wallow in the mire
    First US President Barack Obama solemnly declared that the referendum in Crimea would "violate international law" (Kosovo, though, could merrily secede from Serbia in 2008, to wild Washington fanfare.)

    And this after he declared Crimea to be an "extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the US". What next - Crimean nationalists invading Iowa? No, just a ploy for the White House to deploy the usual financial war.

    All that when the brilliant "strategy" of Team Obama - keep demonizing Putin to Kingdom Come - was reaching its apex.

    But then Obama - noticing Angela Merkel was stealing the spotlight - called Putin and stayed on the phone for nearly a full hour trying to "engage" him. Why the change of heart?

    A possible response may be supplied by the inescapable Dr Zbigniew "The Grand Chessboard" Brzezinski, former national security advisor to that Hamlet hick Jimmy Carter; the man who gave the Soviets "their Vietnam"; the man who always dreamed that the US should rule over Eurasia; and Obama's "invisible" top foreign policy mentor.

    As Dr Zbig told WorldPost's Nathan Gardels, "The strategy of the West at this moment should be to complicate Vladimir Putin's planning." Well, that didn't work so well, did it? Then Dr Zbig advances that "NATO should invite the Russians to participate in its ongoing discussions". It's not happening.

    Dr Zbig is adamant "we have to formally recognize the new government in Ukraine, which I believe expresses the will of the people there". In fact, the will of perhaps half of the nation, at best. "Interference in Ukrainian affairs should be considered a hostile act by a foreign power." That was Obama's rationale until his phone call to Putin.

    Dr Zbig got even more apocalyptic, stressing, "We should put NATO contingency plans into operation, deploying forces in Central Europe so we are in a position to respond if war should break out and spread." No wonder US corporate media went bananas.

    But then Dr Zbig falls back into sanity; "The best solution for Ukraine would be to become as Finland has been to Russia." So in the end he may have suggested to Obama "a compromise solution that is acceptable for Russia as well as the West". And that will involve "serious economic aid and investment". And guess who should take the lead, as in footing the bill? "Germany, the most prosperous and strongest economy in the EU."

    So in the end we fall back, once again, on what Angela and Vlad have been discussing. Is it Finlandization? Or is it about who's trying to set the night on fire?

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-070314.html

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  SOC on Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:19 am

    I really don't get the objection to the issue of Crimea voting to be independent or part of Russia. OK, you can argue that Russia invaded a sovereign nation, if you can prove that the unmarked dudes in Sevastopol and other places are Russian...but then again Russia has the right to have a crapload of troops there anyway, so you can't really argue that one unless they've crossed the limit. All you can really argue is that they're dorking around with the Ukrainian military...and that's a Russia-Ukraine beef, until the Ukrainian government asks for assistance.

    But if the Ukrainians in Crimea vote to be not-Ukraine, who the hell are we to argue? The US wasn't founded on democracy, it was founded on the idea of self-determination. We just so happened to self-determine our asses into a democracy. If someone else self-determines their own asses into something they want to be, fine. Move on. Putin might be wise to talk up the self-determination thing more and bring in monitors to rub everyone's face in it when the people legitimately vote to be part of Russia. THEN what're you gonna do?

    Let the Ukrainians decide this crap for themselves. Then if whatever's left decides to freely join the EU or NATO, fine. If not, also fine. Although I'm not really sure why they'd want to jump into either of those; the EU is a mess and NATO's mutual defence doesn't help you after the fact.

    From this side of the ocean, my guess is that Obama and Co. are butt-hurt after Putin's usurping the Syria situation and see this as something to try and regain face with. Again, why? What US arms are exported from Oktyabrsk? What US economic functions are reliant on Crimea? Why should this matter when our own economy is not exactly blowing the doors off and there are enough internal issues that need attention?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Zivo on Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:25 am

    TR1 wrote:Saaka should give advice on how to best run away from imaginary Russian Su-25s.

     Laughing 

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:55 am

    SOC wrote:From this side of the ocean, my guess is that Obama and Co. are butt-hurt after Putin's usurping the Syria situation and see this as something to try and regain face with.  Again, why?  What US arms are exported from Oktyabrsk?  What US economic functions are reliant on Crimea?  Why should this matter when our own economy is not exactly blowing the doors off and there are enough internal issues that need attention?

    Obama Foreign Policy has been broadly seen as failure Internally , be it Israel-Palastinine talks , Syria , Libya ....... this is a good opportunity for Obama to salvage some of it ..... and it came at the appropriate moment ........look tough , act tough and even EU will back him up.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  NickM on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:45 am

    While the title of this thread is spot on , it has been hijacked by some fan boys who have very little idea of Russia and some who are un willing to speak the truth .

    To be sure , Putin has started exactly from where Stalin left .

    Traditionally, Russian power has rested on four pillars: population, energy, weaponry and geography. Barring geography the remaining three are diminishing . The problem with the Russian Federation’s economic model, much like that of the Soviet Union’s before it, is that it is only sustainable so long as energy prices remain artificially high. But, of course, energy prices are almost certainly going to decline over the coming years as a result of greater energy efficiency in the West, slowing growth in the East .

    Russia has seen its population dwindle and a reversal of this decline will not happen anytime soon .

    The fact that Russia is getting no support from any major European country but rather from some third world shitholes in Africa & Asia proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Russia is doomed , even with a maverick President at the helm .

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:02 am

    French FM says Russia sanctions could come this week





    French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said on Tuesday that sanctions againstRussia over Ukraine could be imposed as early as this week if Moscow fails to respond to a proposition designed to calm the crisis.



    Fabius told the radio station France Inter that a referendum in the Crimea region on joining Russia set for March 16 was illegitimate and that the annexation of the region by Russia would be illegal.


    "The only legitimate vote is that of May 25 for the president of the republic in Ukraine. The vote of March 16 has no legitimacy," Fabius said.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  Regular on Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:04 am

    SOC wrote:Let the Ukrainians decide this crap for themselves.  Then if whatever's left decides to freely join the EU or NATO, fine.  If not, also fine.  Although I'm not really sure why they'd want to jump into either of those; the EU is a mess and NATO's mutual defence doesn't help you after the fact.
    First, no one will let Ukrainians to decide on their own. Second, they have to reform country to be able to join EU. It takes time and money.  dunno  Third, what makes You think that NATO wouldn't help? Americans for example started sending troops to buffer countries, well I hope number won't be symbolic

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:07 am

    TR1 wrote:Saaka should give advice on how to best run away from imaginary Russian Su-25s.

    Might come in handy

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:50 am

    @zg18... thanks for posting that article from the Telegraph... probably the first article posted from that site that is not Russophobic and actually makes sense...

    Traditionally, Russian power has rested on four pillars: population, energy, weaponry and geography. Barring geography the remaining three are diminishing .

    Are you not paying attention Nick? Population is growing in Russia, Energy seems to be enough to export in abundance, and weapons are going through a complete upgrade and renewal for the first time in a few decades... which leaves geography... and when the Crimea adds itself to Russia perhaps South Ossetia and Abkhazia might think of doing the same... and even if they don't that will be an increase for what is already the biggest country in the world...

    the west is bitching and moaning so Russia clearly has the best hand in this round.

    But, of course, energy prices are almost certainly going to decline over the coming years as a result of greater energy efficiency in the West, slowing growth in the East .

    Energy prices are artificially high because of the market economy of the west, and it is industrialisation in China and also inevidible growth in places like China and India that will make energy even more expensive.... not less expensive.

    The fact that Russia is getting no support from any major European country but rather from some third world shitholes in Africa & Asia proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Russia is doomed , even with a maverick President at the helm .

    And have you asked yourself why no western country is helping? They recognise that Russia has the potential to become a major power and they don't want another rival.

    Of course countries like Germany also recognise that Russia offers lots of potential trade opportunities... read the report in the telegraph in zg18s post in this thread (nimber 135 I think)... the old stereotype of Soviet Russia is only true in your head... educate yourself or miss out on an opportunity.

    Saaka should give advice on how to best run away from imaginary Russian Su-25s.

    His advice will be crucial... I am sure without him there many of the officials might have gone with a Polyester Cotton mix for their ties when a nice cotton sateen would be much softer and more absorbant...  Twisted Evil 


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:57 am

    First, no one will let Ukrainians to decide on their own.

    Exactly... Russia cannot interfere, but the west and the EU and NATO is obliged to interfere because they are the democracy experts and they rule the world and are in charge... and it is a unique case anyway.

    Second, they have to reform country to be able to join EU. It takes time and money.

    the Borg must assimilate the Ukrainian resources to enable them to be processed through the EU machine in a way that makes the EU wealthier and the Ukraine does not drag the EU down too much.

    Third, what makes You think that NATO wouldn't help? Americans for example started sending troops to buffer countries, well I hope number won't be symbolic

    Probably because he thinks a military confrontation between NATO and Russia is supposed to never be possible because NATO keeps saying it is not Russias enemy... but this situation proves clearly IT IS the instrument that the EU and the West will use!


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:05 am

    More from Willy Wimmer:


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