Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Share

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:23 pm

    Well, looks like Ukraine was strong armed to the point of signing the agreement. Strong arm to the point US was threatening to place embargoes on Ukraine. Oh well, Ukraine lost its independence to Brussels. Good for Russia over all, as Ukraine is a sinking ship and now they will need to localize more production.

    Problem now is another hostile country like Poland next door, as EU's policies will not intertwine well with Russia's and Ukraine just lost not only former ally, but also historical relative due to incompetence and bribery. Really sad too when they are willing to take orders from somebody 1000km away that will be harmful to your neighbour. Its like taking sides with a stranger to screw over your family member.

    This now shows the ugly that is Ukraine. I am truly ashamed to be considered Ukrainian.


    etaepsilonk
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 717
    Points : 699
    Join date : 2013-11-19

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:14 pm

    Firebird:
    Thanks for your opinion. Well, in my beliefs, current Western foreign policy is somewhat flawed, because of still present Cold War mentality. That puts ideology above interests.
    A good example is a Brezhnev doctrine. It stated, that any country, which not follows socialism "by the book", may be subject to one or another action. Now, we know very well, that this doctrine in many cases damaged the relations with some countries. And the west, ironically, follows the similar path. Some of their high-rank politicians often think, that world is some board for world domination game, are obssesed with cold war theories. But I believe, that is starting to change, slowly.

    To sepheronx:
    Well, there may be still some options for Russia not to loose Ukraine (entirely, at least). For example, covert, or semi-covert military intervention in one or few eastern regions, like Kharkov, and the like. What do you think about that?

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:20 pm

    Wont happen. Russian government showed they are spineless and openly allowed west to make them public enemy #1 in Ukraine with few people, while Russia did not call out the blatant hypocracy of the west or not looking into creating their own protesters. Russia lost this one because they did nothing. They wanted to look innocent but regardless if they were right, they lost and history is written by the victors. Years from now we will hear nothing but how bad Russia treated Ukraine till brave foreigners and patriots saved Ukraine and how it was bastion of civilization in EU. Not much different than what is saying now in the news.

    etaepsilonk
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 717
    Points : 699
    Join date : 2013-11-19

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:45 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Wont happen. Russian government showed they are spineless and openly allowed west to make them public enemy #1 in Ukraine with few people, while Russia did not call out the blatant hypocracy of the west or not looking into creating their own protesters. Russia lost this one because they did nothing. They wanted to look innocent but regardless if they were right, they lost and history is written by the victors. Years from now we will hear nothing but how bad Russia treated Ukraine till brave foreigners and patriots saved Ukraine and how it was bastion of civilization in EU. Not much different than what is saying now in the news.

    Are you sure they are spineless? If they are, there wouldn't have been 888 war, would it?

    And besides, look at my post, adressed to Firebird. Not calling out "the blatant hypocracy of the west or not looking into creating their own protesters" or any similar action may not always be the best action. In this case, Russia's funding of opposition groups, if caught out, would be doubtlessly used as propaganda tool, and who knows, maybe even worsen Russia's position in UA.

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3182
    Points : 3310
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:57 pm

    Who the fuck cares?

    Personally, I'm looking forward to the Ukraine becoming an economic Afghanistan for the EU, and sucking up the finances of those hypocrites.

    Of course they're not that stupid, to actually trust the Ukraine with any technology or money. So what will happen is that they won't offer nearly enough to save Ukrainian industries, many will die out and labelled as 'uncompetitive', while the money that they do give them will be subject to major austerity conditions such as those they're already insisted upon via the IMF; layoff of government/state sector employees, hike in utility prices, raising of the pension age, etc..
    In time - these things themselves will erode the EU's influence; just like what happened when Yushchenko took power in the Ukraine and completely bollocksed up the country.

    Catherine Ashton in response to Yanukovich's demands for $20 billion dollars a year, said only that the Ukraine should come up with a solid economic plan, and then it would be quite possible for it to get the investment it needs.

    Yet who would invest in the Ukraine right now, realistically? Maybe only after it's been through an economic crash, default and shock therapy that would kill off half its value added production.

    Given the current state of the Ukrainian economy; I'd say Russia dodged a major bullet. At the very least we saved $20 billion that can now be invested into making Russia a more developed and attractive country.
    About their shipbuilding, metallurgical, military-industrial, nuclear tech, aerospace, machine-building, grain and educated human potential - yes it's a shame, a big shame. But they're not worth the price of this non-stop circus, running for nigh-on 23 years now. Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan have long since grown out of it and matured.

    zg18
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 868
    Points : 944
    Join date : 2013-09-26
    Location : Zagreb , Croatia

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  zg18 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:07 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Wont happen. Russian government showed they are spineless and openly allowed west to make them public enemy #1 in Ukraine with few people, while Russia did not call out the blatant hypocracy of the west or not looking into creating their own protesters. Russia lost this one because they did nothing. They wanted to look innocent but regardless if they were right, they lost and history is written by the victors. Years from now we will hear nothing but how bad Russia treated Ukraine till brave foreigners and patriots saved Ukraine and how it was bastion of civilization in EU. Not much different than what is saying now in the news.

    Why do you think Russia should fight for Ukraine? Is there any point in throwing billions of tax payers money to just for Ukraine to stay afloat (over 10 billion $ just for repaying debts next year)

    The best option for Russia is that opposition takes over power and that the weight od responsibility (percieved) is taken from Moscow shoulders. Let the West and their puppets explain to Ukrainians why they have African level of poverty , years of economic mismanagment is going to erode further even this low level od life standard.

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:09 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Who the fuck cares?

    Personally, I'm looking forward to the Ukraine being an economic Afghanistan for the EU.

    Given the current state of the Ukrainian economy; I'd say Russia dodged a major bullet. At the very least we saved $20 billion that can now be invested into making Russia a more developed and attractive country.

    What makes a country economically strong and influential is its grasp in the world. Russia needs to sell their goods, as well as having economic representation in other countries, via business. The rate Russia is going, by allowing allies and partners to be gobbled up around them, they wont have many to trade with, and making economic embargoes places on you even easier and or blacklisting of enterprises allowed to trade with Europe. Customs Union needs to expand and they really need to get more countries involved, and be more interactive, will save Russia. And at the same time, allow Russian enterprises to invest in these areas. Hell, EU is treating Turkey like garbage, try to bring them in.

    Only other option is seek some sort of self dependancy in domestic consumption, but that is not going to make anyone uber rich, just wealthy in other means.

    Ukraine is a fairly decent sized market that could be tapped. Russia lost out on that. Antonov will be taken advantage of, and Motor sitch.

    Ukraine is a huge buyer of Russian products. Lada granta sold very well in the Ukraine as example.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:13 pm; edited 2 times in total

    TR1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5840
    Points : 5892
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  TR1 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:12 pm

    I want Ukraine to go EU.

    No more handouts from Russia, no more favorable prices on oil and gas to keep them "friendly", no more money spent on joint projects and on supporting pro-Russia politicians....Russia first, former-Soviet states not a priority. Of course that is my dream, but the thieves in charge of Russia want to make money first and make Russia healthy second.

    HOWEVER most of all, winding down of joint military projects with Kiev. Even our idiots will see this is dangerous to national security the closer Ukraine gets to EU.
    Of course as Russia inevitably ceases any major industry/military import from Ukraine, their military sector will wither even more than it already has. Well they claim China will order billions from them, good luck with that. Smile
    Honestly, I wanted An-70 to enter service for sooo long..but at this point cancel it. Invest that money into aircraft that are not half Ukrainian.


    Last edited by TR1 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

    zg18
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 868
    Points : 944
    Join date : 2013-09-26
    Location : Zagreb , Croatia

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  zg18 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:15 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Ukraine is a fairly decent sized market that could be tapped. Russia lost out on that. Antonov will be taken advantage of, and Motor sitch.

    Which will erode over time with the loss of population and decreasing wages , Ukraine will be like giant Albania (even now Albania enjoy higher standards of living than Ukraine...)

    It`s pitty what has happened with Ukraine but it`s their problem , their burden. Russia should take only pragmatic steps (like strengthening military presence in Crimea) that ensures blocking Ukraine into NATO. And that is it...

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:17 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Wont happen. Russian government showed they are spineless and openly allowed west to make them public enemy #1 in Ukraine with few people, while Russia did not call out the blatant hypocracy of the west or not looking into creating their own protesters. Russia lost this one because they did nothing. They wanted to look innocent but regardless if they were right, they lost and history is written by the victors. Years from now we will hear nothing but how bad Russia treated Ukraine till brave foreigners and patriots saved Ukraine and how it was bastion of civilization in EU. Not much different than what is saying now in the news.

    Are you sure they are spineless? If they are, there wouldn't have been 888 war, would it?

    And besides, look at my post, adressed to Firebird. Not calling out "the blatant hypocracy of the west or not looking into creating their own protesters" or any similar action may not always be the best action. In this case, Russia's funding of opposition groups, if caught out, would be doubtlessly used as propaganda tool, and who knows, maybe even worsen Russia's position in UA.

    Russian PR is bad as it already is. They were the bad guy the entire time. Hell, they convinced people that they were not an independent nation for crying out loud. They did nothing and lost. They look like the bad guy anyway, might as well do something that will at least favour your position.

    etaepsilonk
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 717
    Points : 699
    Join date : 2013-11-19

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  etaepsilonk on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:18 pm

    To FP:
    You are mistaken, if you think that UA will be a money hole. In fact, I believe, that EU countries (especially Germany) will recieve from UA much more money, than they will ever give.

    To sepheronx:

    I think, that even if Russia becomes very good at PR, it will never become better than west. So, why don't explore other options, the ones with less competition?


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

    zg18
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 868
    Points : 944
    Join date : 2013-09-26
    Location : Zagreb , Croatia

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  zg18 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:30 pm

    Ukraine Central Bank burned over 50% of state currency reserves in two years just to Hryvnia stay afloat with dollar , yes it`s keeps buying power for population but on the other hand it kills the economy becuase it has appreciation effect which makes products even more uncompetitive on the markets.

    Reserves are now low , less than $19 billion , which only covers two moths of imports. That is a default , and it is going to be nasty.

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3182
    Points : 3310
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:37 pm

    Good article from the World Socialist organisation

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-struggle-for-ukraine-protests-made-in-germany-america-and-the-eu/5360501

    The current wave of protests in Ukraine bears the label “Made in Germany,” “Made in the EU” and “Made in America.” The Western media has gone to great lengths to portray the demonstrations in Kiev as a struggle for democracy and the rule of law. In fact, they are part of a conflict over geostrategic issues. The aim is to repel Russian influence and subject Ukraine to the domination of Germany, the European Union and NATO.

    Nine years ago, the Orange Revolution was organized with massive political and financial support from the US government and American NGOs such as the Open Society Institute of billionaire George Soros. These forces were able to annul the presidential election and ensure that the pro-EU and pro-US tandem of Viktor Yushchenko and Julia Tymoshenko took over as head of state and head of government in place of Viktor Yanukovich, who was considered to be in the pocket of Russia. The duo quickly fell out, however, and Yanukovich was able to assume the post of president in 2010.

    Now another attempt is being made to bring a regime to power that will subordinate the former Soviet Republic and granary of the Russian Empire to the EU. An examination of the political leadership of the protests reveals their reactionary character. They are led by three parties, two of which have close relations with the conservative camp in the EU, while the third is openly fascist.

    The Batkivshchyna (Homeland) party, led by the imprisoned Julia Tymoshenko, has observer status with the European People’s Party, the association of Europe’s Christian-Democratic and conservative parties. UDAR (Punch), headed by boxing champion Vitali Klitschko, who is a resident of Germany, is a creation of German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and its think tank, the Konrad Adenauer Foundation. The latter publicly advertises on its web site seminars devoted to the political education of UDAR members.

    According to a study entitled “The Extreme Right in the Ukraine” by the German Friedrich Ebert Foundation, the third party, Svoboda (Freedom), is “the flagship of core extreme-right ideology.” The party’s original name was the Social-National Party of Ukraine. It used as its emblem a logo reminiscent of the Nazi swastika. On the advice of the French National Front (FN), with which it works closely, it decided on a less provocative name.

    Arseniy Yatsenyuk (Homeland) and Vitali Klitschko appear at press conferences together with Oleh Tyahnybok from Svoboda. Tyahnybok is a neo-Nazi notorious for his ultranationalist, xenophobic and anti-Semitic outbursts.

    Leading European and American politicians have expressed their solidarity with the protests in Ukraine. The same forces that have tacitly supported the brutality of police in mercilessly beating those opposing EU austerity policies in Athens, Madrid and elsewhere now proclaim their outrage at the brutality of the Ukrainian police.

    US State Secretary John Kerry urged the Ukrainian government to “listen to the voice of their people,” while his German counterpart, Guido Westerwelle, intervened personally on Wednesday to mix with demonstrators in Kiev. NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen has demanded that the Ukrainian government guarantee the right to freedom of expression and assembly. The German government, which has just commenced new proceedings against the neo-fascist National Democratic Party of Germany, defends the right of Ukrainian fascists to demonstrate.

    Though it is calling for the resignation of the president and new elections, the opposition does not enjoy the support of the majority of Ukrainians. A motion of censure against the government failed on Tuesday in parliament. The Association and Free Trade Agreement with the European Union that the opposition wants to implement would have a devastating impact on large sections of the Ukrainian population.

    The EU Agreement excludes simultaneous membership in a Russian-led customs union and would thus cut off Ukraine from its main trading partner, with which Ukraine’s industry and transport routes are closely connected. The abolition of customs duties on European goods would also mean bankruptcy for many Ukrainian industries.

    The terms of the agreement, which include the introduction of EU rules for labor market deregulation, the privatization of state enterprises and a reduction in the public debt, would have a social impact similar to the EU austerity programs imposed on Greece, Romania and other countries. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) is already denying Ukraine a much-needed credit because the government refuses to hike the price of gas by 40 percent—a move that would inevitably result in the death of many unemployed people and pensioners unable to pay their heating bills.

    The Association Agreement would turn the country into an extended workbench for German and European companies, which could produce at lower wage rates than those in China. At the same time, the country’s natural resources, its vast and fertile landmass, and its domestic market of 46 million inhabitants make Ukraine a mouthwatering prospect for German and European businesses.

    The agreement would also strengthen the EU’s hand against Russia. A customs union or Eurasian Union comprising Russia and the Ukraine would have had a significantly stronger position in trade negotiations with the EU than an isolated Russia.

    Germany, the EU and the US are pursuing not only economic, but also geopolitical, objectives in Ukraine. Given Russia’s loss of influence in Eastern Europe since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the incorporation of Ukraine into the EU would push Russia off to the edge of Europe.

    Since the end of the 18th Century, Ukraine formed an important part of the Russian and Soviet state. Moreover, the Russian Black Sea Fleet is located in Crimea at a port leased to Russia by Ukraine.

    Both the US and the EU have an interest in weakening Russia, which is considered to be an important ally of China. Immediately after his election in March, Chinese President Xi Jinping traveled to Moscow to strengthen the two countries’ “strategic partnership.” Both countries feel threatened economically and strategically by the aggressive incursions of the US and its allies in Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

    China is also expanding its economic links with Ukraine, which currently conducts about 5 percent of its foreign trade with China. In October, theSouth China Morning Post reported that the Chinese state-owned enterprise XPCC had struck a deal with the Ukrainian agricultural company KSG Agro to gain access to 100,000 hectares of arable land for the production of food for China. This area is to be expanded to three million hectares—the size of Belgium or Massachusetts.

    China has already given the country loans of $10 billion. Ukraine considers its economic relations with China to be so important that President Yanukovich set off on Tuesday for a four-day state visit to Beijing, despite the ongoing political crisis.

    This is the background to the attempts by the EU and the German government to use the protests in Kiev to destabilize the Ukrainian government. Their initiative has been launched in tandem with the US, which is systematically expanding its military presence in Asia to encircle China and undermine its influence in the region. To this end, the US has massively intensified its pressure on China in recent weeks.

    The offensive against Ukraine raises profound historical questions. In two world wars, Germany sought to bring Ukraine under its control and committed abominable crimes in the process. The current brazenness of the German government is fraught with new dangers. The growing international tensions can quickly turn into armed conflict.

    This danger can be countered only by an independent movement of the international working class fighting for a united socialist Europe.

    Firebird
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 909
    Points : 941
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  Firebird on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:46 pm

    @Etaepsilonk

    Yes you are absolutely correct. The moronic Americans are obsessed with cold war mentality. Unfortunately, they are getting away with it.

    Russia should be causing shit left right and centre with this morons in Washington. And showing what pathological liars, frauds and troublemakers they are. Genocide in the M East, spying on closest rivals, sponsoring far right animals in the Ukraine, shit in Georgia etc etc. 

    A fair proportion of the EU isn't much better. But most of the serious players know they should keep their mouths shut.

    What I can't understand is the Russian media being so meek and mild about scum, basically terrorists and neo Nazis trying to intimidate a legitimate govt, the judges and normal citizens.

    Why the hell aren't the Party of the Regions allowed to protest? Why the hell aren't normal, decent people allowed to use the planned ice rink in the square?

    Make no mistake, the Yanks and their Euro-monkey friends are attemtping to start a coup/civil war in a democratic state. Its like Russia sponsoring separatist terrorists in California, Louisiana or Texas.

    Its clear America is behaving like a completely enemy state. What the hell does Russia get by letting them use their bases for Afghan, or ANYTHING at all?

    Let the Party of the Regions protest. Give them police protection. If the neo Nazis from Lvov do any shit, then let them have it. Yanukovich needs to grow some and declare a state of emergency if the morons don't allow govt to work unintimidated. He needs to lock up ALL the troublemakers and break off diplomatic relats with slime like America etc.

    @Sepheronx/Flamming.

    OK you might think the Ukraine is unimportant. But it is a vast area geographically, with excellent agricultural opports. It has 45m people. Many were highly skilled and completely loyal to Russia. Many ARE infact Russians.  It DOES have industry and a good climate. But overwhelmingly more important than any of this, is the fact that its the cradle of Russian civilisation. Its a key centre of Russian, history, culture, architecture, the Orthodox Church and much more.

    Foreigners  - the Polish invaders in the Ukraine, the Yanks and all the rest have no right to dicatte its future any more than Putin should be choosing the Mayor of Miami.

    I cannot understand for the life of me what the Kremlin is thinking with this...

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3182
    Points : 3310
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:13 pm

    It's not that it's not important, is that just that in the immediate future Russia has few options there other than to try and cut its losses.

    If the Ukraine undergoes an economic miracle and growth as a result of this AA with the EU; then good for them. That might actually make them a more tempting partner in the medium-term, and they can always be tempted away from US/EU influence and NATO membership (think Iraq, Egypt).

    But I have my express doubts that anything like that would happen; more than likely their economy and political system will enter a period of increased turmoil.
    In which case the best option again would be for Russia to wait it out, and then try and draw the Ukraine in again when the EU/US/IMF/etc... have been completely discredited.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3182
    Points : 3310
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:15 pm

    BTW Firebird, I'm not a mod, but we have American members on this forum which deserve the same amount of respect as anyone else. In fact we have some very knowledgable contributors from the US on this forum and I'd like to keep it that way. The more Americans here the better, the more everyone here the better.

    So please let's refrain from any sort of 'moronic Americans' comments. I know you're referring to the US government, but still it can't be pleasant; from my POV I certainly wouldn't like it if someone who disagreed with Putin's politics kept referring to the 'moronic Russians' or whatever.

    Let's all be civil and respect other peoples and cultures.

    TR1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5840
    Points : 5892
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  TR1 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:20 pm

    America ain't making Ukrainians anti-Russian.

    That a phenomenon of Ukrainians themselves, Russian government misstepping or being a bunch of crooks in general (same with Uk gov), and ofc our difficult common history.

    So many projects in Russia that need Russian money, and much more fruitful partnerships with asian countries to be made. Nice bonus is that they don't have this emotional baggage Ukraine is full of. Ukraine can liberate itself, and so can Russia Smile.

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:25 pm

    What people fail to grasp is that once in EU and with people like saka in power in Ukraine, you can kiss any future cooperation goodbye, especially if EU can fix that country. Under EU's heavy handedness, they may use Ukraine as a measure to fix the other Euro nations by moving enterprises around and use as an investment climate. Ultimately, Ukraine is lost for good. With them gone, Russia is even less legit, and they will concentrate efforts in Belarus next. And Russia wont do anything and people will say how Belarus was a lost cause, and now Russia will be by itself with no European friends and only Asian friends. Russia has a lot to lose and very little to gain except for short term domestic investments.

    Kinda sad many cant look to the future to see how this can really hurt Russia. They already look pathetic thanks to incompetence of media and politics.

    Just wait, I wouldnt be surprised if NATO membership will be given not much longer, and expect more US troops at Russia's border.

    Firebird
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 909
    Points : 941
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  Firebird on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:31 pm

    @Flamming.

    Well I think my resentments are pretty clear. Nowhere have I said that "all Americans are morons" or even "significant numbers of Americans are morons".

    Bush and Clinton, the American political class etc regularly say "the Russians are stuck in xyz mindset" and "the Russians are bringing shame upon the international community" etc.

    I am referring to "the Americans" who are in government, and running smear stories in the international media. Yes they ARE moronic. Backing neo Nazis and violent mobs against a validly elected government. Then threatening sanctions etc. 

    That clearly is moronic ie appalling behaviour. Democrats AND Republicans. I'm actually a British citizen, and I regularly say, in relation to politics,  "the idiots in Britain", because Britain's political class is as corrupt as the American one.

    And thats something a lot of Americans I know agree with me on.

    Firebird
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 909
    Points : 941
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  Firebird on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:47 pm

    @Sepheronx.
    Yes I agree with you. To think what Russia spent in lives and money fighting for Chechnya. And so far, it seems they're doing zero for the historic, even spiritual centre of the Kievan Rus...

    When my grandparents were in Kiev, it was NINETY percent Russian. The Great Patriotic War had a big effect on the mix of the Ukraine as I see. Basically ethnic cleansing, W Ukrainians backed by the Nazis, and all the appalling crimes that entailed.

    If the Ukraine was lost, the Americans would look at Belarus, Kazakstan, the Caucuses. And they'd agitate China into meddling on the Eastern side. Who's to say the whole Russian Federation wodulnt crumble.

    My view is that the best form of defence is attack. Russia should be sponsoring African American groups, Muslim Americans, and Latin Americans in the US. Get Venezuela and Cuba etc in the Customs Union. Start poking its nose in "American electoral standards" and the affairs of Mexico. Get the UN out of New York. Likewise with parts of the EU.

    The Ukraine goes WAY beyond economic. Its like considering having Washington DC become part of Canada.

    I reckon the EU and US have suggested a partition of the Ukraine. The Eastern 1/3rd is basically Russian. But the big question is some of the Central 1/3rd. I think America wants the Ukraine in the EU, to ruin EU-Russia relations. Russia is then forced to be "friends" with China. And America thinks Russia and CHina will eventually fall out, owing to competing interests.

    Russia really does need to show its strneth here. Maybe its biding its time...

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3182
    Points : 3310
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:18 am

    sepheronx wrote:What people fail to grasp is that once in EU and with people like saka in power in Ukraine, you can kiss any future cooperation goodbye, especially if EU can fix that country.  Under EU's heavy handedness, they may use Ukraine as a measure to fix the other Euro nations by moving enterprises around and use as an investment climate. Ultimately, Ukraine is lost for good. With them gone, Russia is even less legit, and they will concentrate efforts in Belarus next. And Russia wont do anything and people will say how Belarus was a lost cause, and now Russia will be by itself with no European friends and only Asian friends.  Russia has a lot to lose and very little to gain except for short term domestic investments.

    Kinda sad many cant look to the future to see how this can really hurt Russia. They already look pathetic thanks to incompetence of media and politics.

    Just wait, I wouldnt be surprised if NATO membership will be given not much longer, and expect more US troops at Russia's border.

    I doubt they would fix the country. No way that it will survive with some token EU aid and US investments versus the powerful Eurasian economic union emerging next-door; which will soon grow to absorb half the countries of the CIS. And there is no way that the Ukraine will be able to do without preferential CIS trade; it's biggest bloc of trade partners by far. Russia and Belarus already have tons of industrial partnerships and both countries are growing a lot faster than the Ukraine, not only in economic terms but now in terms of other measurements such as demographic, social care and so on.
    Ukrainians will notice this, and will start to question why they can't get in on the pie too.

    Ripping Belarus away from Russia is unrealistic; their people just won't stand for it and the industrial links are too great. Which is ultimately what the problem was with the Ukraine, because in Kiev at least; they are willing to move away from Russia and to be used as pawns against Russia - for the sake of vague promises and doubtful economic gains.

    So no, I don't see any threat really. Look at Georgia, a few years of Saakashvilli and now half the population wants to turn their back on the EU in favour of Russia.

    Russia has to play this long-term; not just panicking at some short-term set-backs.
    The best option by far is to further encourage the development of the Eurasian Economic Union, increase economic growth, offer reforms to members and make membership more enticing; while at the same time being careful to not have Russia simply dominate the whole decision process, and respect other member-states interests and sovereignty.
    The more this organisation develops, the faster the Ukraine will come back into the fold.

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:52 am

    Easy said, but I bet many years ago no one saw Ukraine going this far.  They would push for so called democracy, pay people to protest, and then Belarus is gone. So far, this tactic is working quite well against Russia. US funds opposition in Russia. Remember MZKT in mp.net? In Belarus he mentioned about anti Russians for supporting Lukashenko. There is anti Rusdian sentiment and that can be used against Russia. Then what? Russia sat on their duff, and realized that they were being cornered with Georgia they acted. What, you want it to eventually lead to war?

    It is people like you the underestimate what is happening on the world stage and downplaying the whole thing. Eventually we may hear about Siberia being funded to separate. There already is rampant corruption in Russia, that it may not be hard to find someone who wants money, seat in power just to follow what is being said by west. Yugoslavia is another example.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15445
    Points : 16152
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:00 am

    The problem is that Russia showing its teeth is just Russia interfering.

    The EU and US get away with that because they largely control the media and therefore a large percentage of english speaking public attention.

    Of course with the internet and things like Russia today there are options to get a different perspective, but plenty in the west are happy to believe what their governments are telling them even though they know they are liars... they are our liars.

    I hope Russia never sinks to the level of the US and the west... otherwise what is the point in being right if we can't tell your actions from those of those you oppose.



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3182
    Points : 3310
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:02 am

    sepheronx wrote:Easy said, but I bet many years ago no one say Ukraine going this far.  They van push for so called democracy, pay people to protest, and then Belarus is gone. So far, this tactic is working quite well against Russia. US funds opposition in Russia. Remember MZKT in mp.net? In Belarus he mentioned about anti Russians for supporting Lukashenko. There is anti Rusdian sentiment and that can be used against Russia. Then what? Russia sat on their duff, and realized that they were being cornered with Georgia they acted. What, you want it to eventually lead to war?

    It is people like you the underestimate what is happening on the world stage and downplaying the whole thing. Eventually we may hear about Siberia being funded to separate. There already is rampant corruption in Russia, that it may not be hard to find someone who wants money, seat in power just to follow what is being said by west. Yugoslavia is another example.

    You have too little faith in people

    Ukraine is going away due to their own choice.
    Yugoslavia went the way they did, due to their own choice. Sure Germany, US, etc.. interfered and supported their own sides, but that was after the process had started and they wouldn't have accomplished anything if there wasn't already real violence and divisions brewing.

    The USSR collapsed; and that had very little to do with the West or Western interference. It was our own choice.

    As for Belarus - everything is very simple. They, and Russians too; can see the mess that the Ukraine is becoming due to their unstable and meandering political trajectory, and after the Ukraine signs the AA with the EU, and its situation becomes even worse - Belarussians and Russians will see that too.
    People aren't dumb you know, and no-one in Belarus will want such a fate for their own country.

    The US put just as much money into funding the opposition and revolution in Russia in 2012 as they did in the Ukraine now. Yet they accomplished nothing, the people didn't want it.
    In the Ukraine they did accomplish something; because enough of the population allowed themselves to be fooled.

    All Russia has to do is become a successful, attractive country. Really - that's all it has to do. All the rest of these issues will then sort themselves out.

    zg18
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 868
    Points : 944
    Join date : 2013-09-26
    Location : Zagreb , Croatia

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  zg18 on Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:47 am

    To cut things in middle so to speak. Surgical overview of the current financial , economical situation in the Ukraine and offer glimpses of the future

    To answer these questions, we should start with a brief overview of the state of the Ukrainian economy and its prospects for the future. For the bulk of Ukrainians Axim is that Ukraine "rich country" with "enormous resources" and the only thing that prevents its prosperity - corruption (option - "pro-Russian oligarchs"). The problem is that it is not.

    Resource potential of Ukraine looks impressive on paper, but in reality 79% of Ukrainian extraction of minerals is unprofitable, and much of the rest - even in marginal theory. Practice in the face of worn equipment (for example, 70% of state-owned coal mines operate without reconstruction over 20 years) is different. As a result, for example, the cost per tonne of steam coal more than double the purchase price. Infrastructure is worn to the bone, as well as energy system, an impressive part of the Ukrainian industry is easier to tear down and rebuild than to remodel. Funds for modernization of Ukrainian industry have mostly just there, and if they are - no frames. Thus, Ukraine - a unique place where the transition from open-hearth process for the EAF steel quality often falls, and modernization of blast furnace becomes immediate cause for the accident. At the same time the shortage of personnel in the near future will increase dramatically - so, by 2030, the working-age population will fall from 27 to 21 million people.

    In general, any intelligible economic policy died in 2004 at the Independence, and the last ten years, Ukrainian business and government investment was not before, despite the very good pricing environment in the "zero" (Ukrainian metallurgy profitability, despite its archaism, in 2008 reached 40%). The current situation is much worse (for example, in the global market - the overproduction of steel), and the bulk of industry and infrastructure is aged for five years.

    Based on the objective possibilities of the Ukrainian economy, standard of living in the country shall be substantially different from the Egyptian. Nevertheless, while it is significantly higher, and the "guilt" that five factors. Firstly, it is an impressive and rapidly growing population zakreditovannost (almost three times higher than in Russia), which makes sooner or later inevitable crisis "bad debts". Secondly, the overvaluation of hryvnia, resulting in a chronic excess of imports over exports, which have to pay for spending gold reserves (GCR). So, in October, imports totaled $ 7.9 billion, exports - $ 5.7 billion Third, direct and indirect subsidies to a number of industries, primarily coal, allowing to keep a relatively low unemployment rate. However, only from January to September this year, the losses of state coal mines totaled $ 1.33 billion, or 32% more than in the same period of 2012. Fourth, radically depressed prices for housing services, gas and electricity for the population facing budget of about $ 5 billion per year (the debts of the population only for electricity reached a ten-year maximum in more than $ 1.5 billion, an increase from January to August this year, almost 20%, infrastructure utilities, naturally, is not funded in the proper amount and degraded). Fifth, radically overestimated compared with the possibilities of the economy pensions and salaries of state employees. At the same time for several years in the pension fund receives less money than is spent, and the difference is covered by the state budget.

    Issue price is the budget deficit ($ 5 billion in gently put too optimistic budget for 2013) and included at full capacity printing press - the money supply from January to October increased by 19.7% (2012-th - 12.5 %). However, money is still not enough - so that by October the money in the accounts of government almost dried up, the pension fund performs current payments by borrowing, and in October it was reported on mass non-payment of salaries to state employees. In this issue, of course, has the devaluation pressure on the hryvnia, the retention of which costs more expensive ($ 300 million in September this year, $ 800 million - in November).

    As a result, the Ukrainian economy was a drowning. By early November, official reserves declined to $ 20.633 billion (down 15.9% year to date, the presence of two billion debt for gas;) November gold reserves fell by another 9% to 18 billion 791 million, and do not cover the three imports. "Live" money from Kiev less than $ 5 billion, and the rest - securities unclear degree of liquidity.

    This is an exact reproduction of the situation in Egypt before the military coup. Gross external debt of Ukraine is 75.7% of GDP. Public external debt is relatively low (40% of GDP), and even decreased slightly compared to the beginning of the year. Caveat however is that, firstly, it decreased almost outstanding amount of gas, and secondly, it is extremely expensive and as the evaporation of gold reserves is becoming more expensive. About half of the national debt - it's short-term bonds with maturities up to 2017 years old, while their yield reached astronomical values. So eurobonds maturing in the next year reached 19.5% per year, five-year - 13.4%. The average rate on dollar liabilities - 11.8% (second in the world).

    Thus in 2014, Ukraine will have to pay $ 5.6 billion IMF only, and total, as suggested by Fitch, the country will need $ 7 - $ 8 billion in 2015, breaking the situation is not expected - according to Bloomberg, the next two years the country as most unreliable borrower Eastern Europe, will have to pay $ 15.3 billion credit rating of Ukraine, according to Fitch and Standard & Poor's - at the level of Greece, Cyprus and Egypt. Investors frankly rid of Ukrainian debt.

    De facto, the fact that the country still has not experienced a financial collapse - the result of the August deal with U.S. investment fund Franklin Templeton, accumulate first 20% and then 40% of the Ukrainian debt. Clearly, however, first, that the deal was a discount character - investors pay in such cases, the amount that is far from nominal. Second, Franklin Templeton known buying debt of troubled countries, and U.S. investment funds in general - their ruthless knockout. An example of such tactics are, for example, NML Capital and Elliott Management, refused to restructure the debt of Argentina. In fact, an appeal to the Franklin Templeton-this measure taken in an absolutely hopeless situation.

    In general, the further increase in the national debt expensive - it is an inevitable default, a collapse of the hryvnia (with corresponding difficulties in paying the same gas imports) and an inflationary spiral. Thus reduction in effective demand will lead to mass unemployment crisis "bad debts" and impressive problems for the banking system.

    Radically reduce external borrowing is only possible at the cost of devaluation of the hryvnia, and the dismantling of subsidies (for example, the coal industry of Ukraine should be reduced at times under any circumstances). Inflation, unemployment and the crisis of "bad debts" is inevitable and in this case, however, compared to the default scenario, they will have a smaller scale. Yanukovych administration in reality forced to choose between economic collapse and extremely unpopular.

    Simple calculation shows that the foreign exchange reserves of the National Bank of Ukraine (NBU), while maintaining the current financial policy will be fully guaranteed and exhausted before the end of 2014. In other words, to avoid the dilemma of "bad or worse" any Ukrainian authorities need cheap (ideally - free) money. Devaluation of the hryvnia, and the abolition of the subsidy significantly while still inevitable - the only question is the timing and scope of reforms. Relative economic independence of Ukraine together with the political multivectorness comes to an end - it is simply unable to pay for them.

    Sprint pace at which Yanukovych administration initially rushed to ratify the agreement with the EU (not only calculate the consequences, but simply do not read the documents themselves), explained by this. The government is obviously counting on massive subsidies of the European Union (appetites recall extended to $ 16 billion a year and $ 160 billion in total, the minimum considered immediate assistance in the amount of $ 10 billion), indulgence IMF (which was planned to take $ 15 billion) and Moscow indifference.
    In the end it turned out that the money from Brussels, by and large, no. Eurozone public debt reached 93.4% of GDP by the end of November, Southern European economy with almost dvuhtrillionnym public debt (Italy) and 26% unemployment (Spain) require very careful attention. As a consequence, the EU proposed a seven-year amount - less than two months of exports to Russia. Inflow of foreign investment also not expected - on the contrary, almost directly before the scheduled signing of the agreement was reported sale of three large European-owned banks - "Raiffeisen Bank Aval", "Ukrsotsbank" and "UniCredit", read the text agreement was assailed by investors suitcase mood (Bloomberg coolly stated that the immediate signing of the document almost immediately lead to a loss of 400 thousand jobs).

    IMF position also remained the same - the most that can count Kiev, a partial refinancing of previously accumulated debt ($ 4 billion) on a freezing of wages and pensions, the devaluation of the hryvnia, the elimination of tax incentives and subsidies. Likewise, Moscow is not ready to pay for Ukraine's European aspirations, keeping her preferential trade rules - after creating a free trade zone with the EU it would be tantamount frontal reduction of import duties with the EU.

    In fact, the current administration in Ukraine could do only the following. First, a bargain with the West with minimal chance of success - the EU has already stated that the contract terms of evroassotsiatsii remain unchanged. Compensate for loss of income from the decline in exports to Russia have nothing to Brussels. U.S. aid, made desperate efforts to reduce the budget deficit in 2013 was limited to $ 100 million (mainly to "promote democracy"). Secondly, look at alternative credit resources Brussels and Moscow "power centers." The problem is that China and Russia are strategic partners and really visit of the Ukrainian President in Beijing did not bring new credit agreements. Third, try to get a discount on gas and credit resources in Russia (according to some reports, it was about $ 12 billion and $ 10 billion cubic meters of gas at 210-230 dollars for 1 thousand cubic meters, the standard price - $ 450). However, until an agreement is reached, and if December 17 Ukrainian side will not be able to sign it, pay for the gas completely Yanukovych administration can not be guaranteed.

    The actual bankruptcy regime of Yanukovych in the case of Moscow's intransigence seems almost inevitable. At the same time, the ruling group came to the threshold of crisis is split. Promaydannye clearly the first stage mood Ukrainian media willingly replicated, for example, the version of the opposition "provocation authorities" about November 30 and December 1 (with 150 hospitalized policemen and five - in a serious condition, and the undoubted aggressive demonstrators seized three buildings) obviously explained, it is this.

    Large independent media in Ukraine is not. Thus, 80% of Ukrainian television audience - the channels that belong to four major businessmen. Market leaders - is "Inter" (Firtash), "Ukraine" (Rinat Akhmetov), ​​"New Channel", STB, ICTV, M1 and Q-Tv (Viktor Pinchuk), "1 +1" (Igor Kolomoisky and Gennady Bogolyubov ). At the time of arrival of Yanukovych to power between his administration and big business had almost a full understanding, but in the last few years, the relationship became increasingly strained. This is mainly due to too violent expansion of the "family" of the president, in particular, the efforts of his son Alexander.

    Official state son Yanukovych is "only" $ 0.5 billion, but the presidential clan included, according to various sources, a number of business and having business interests of officials and security forces. The pace and the methods by which expands the "family" business, long gone beyond the bounds of decency minimum. Thus, the 27-year-old Kurchenko, the rise of which is associated with the patronage of the administration, two years became manager of the beer company to billionaire, and very original ways - such as for example in the state uncompensated seizure of "Naftogaz" liquefied gas worth 1.6 billion hryvnia, meanwhile, is practically a monopoly on such schemes was tacitly reserved for Dmitry Firtash (so "Naftogaz" diligently lost Firtash courts over the "debt" to him at $ 2.2 billion). The latter, apparently, quite actively pushed out of the gas business is not the softest methods - so the state tax office did not return his VAT businesses $ 3 billion hryvnia. With smaller pieces costing even tougher. So, in January co-owner of "Oil and Gas" and the deputy from the Party of Regions Nestor Shufrich accused Ukrainian Energy Minister and Minister personally Stavisky in illegal mining license revocation and subsequent extortion 30% share of the company; previously disappeared CEO Oleg Seminsky .

    As a result, among the disaffected Firtash was not only, but also, apparently, Pinchuk and even tacit co-founder of the Party of Regions Akhmetov, reportedly calling new candidates "Young Turks". Meanwhile, it is a key sponsor Firtash Vitali Klitschko. "Fatherland" Yatsenuk sponsor Akhmetov same Firtash, the ownership of the major Ukrainian media mentioned above. In other words, maidan and lighting can be seen, first, as an attempt to punish the big Ukrainian business "family" for the frank raiding. Secondly, try at least temporarily exclude "family" of competition for higher-yielding assets - in this case, apparently successful, so notorious "Oil and Gas" to the sound of the maidan moved to Akhmetov; Akhmetov Firtash and plan to buy and "Raiffeisen Bank Aval".
    Obviously, the development of the crisis in the short term will be determined by the intra-balance. Let's see what are the interests of big Ukrainian businesses.

    Last, first, is a classic "offshore aristocracy" holding the key financial assets abroad. Second, the Ukrainian business elite is well aware that with a tight integration with Russia will inevitably be in a subordinate position in relation to the much more powerful, better organized and technologically much more advanced big business. RF. The image of the "terrible Russian oligarch" in Ukrainian mass consciousness - a reflection of the fears of the average Ukrainian oligarch. Western capital, which does not seek to Ukraine, in this sense seems much more preferable. Thirdly, there are well-defined interests of the private wing - for the same transition Firtasha Ukrainian gas transportation system under the direct control of "Gazprom" will mean virtually collapsed.

    As for the richest Ukrainians, the "Akhmetov will never be integration with Russia, his entire career - is defense against the encroachments of the Russian oligarchy, which aims to capture the Ukrainian industry. Though it does not mean that he is ready for rapid integration with the EU for a comfortable the existing situation and the Ukraine, which costs between Russia and Europe. " The second paragraph is not quite accurate: Akhmetov long enough trying to "legitimized" in the West, however, there are problems. For several years he is unable to obtain a visa in the U.S., as recently as March this year, the French deputies demanded to ban him from entering the Schengen zone. In general, such an attitude is not surprising - reportedly Ukrainian media tycoon started out as a "right hand" in Chapter OPG "Lux" Alik the Greek , and his subsequent career has some originality. Also, it is known as a sponsor recently liquidated "Party of Muslims of Ukraine" maintaining relations with Islamists from Hizb ut-Tahrir.

    Perennial zombie population Ukrainian media virtual charms of European integration, to provide Evromaydan masses' political infantry "painstaking transformation in the minds of Russian Ukrainian everyman in" impoverished plundered the country "and the lack of the political field pro-Russian forces in Ukraine explained by this. Defence Akhmetov expressed, in particular, under various pretexts, attempts to ban the broadcasting of Russian TV channels in Ukraine (the latter made in September of this year).

    Klitschko and company categorically demanded the immediate signing of the agreement with the EU on any terms and taking the IMF loan with his "anti-social package" - a de facto voice Firtasha personally.
    However, at the same time, the Ukrainian business elite, it is clear, first, that the economy is collapsing. Secondly, that the immediate signing of the agreement with the EU on the current conditions and the inevitable increase in trade barriers with Russia leads to disaster. So, in October, the Ukrainian Union of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs Yanukovych officially asked to postpone at least a year the signing of the Association Agreement, for the Ukrainian economy in its current state is not competitive.

    Third, that the support of anti-Russian line fraught personal responsibility. So famous Ukrainian media hysteria controlled Firtash and Akhmetov, about a "trade war" with Russia, associated with exactly what they both (especially the first) hit the "list of forty" exporters whose products are subject to mandatory inspection. Pinchuk and Poroshenko also suffered losses.
    Further, the Ukrainian economy is shrinking becomes a field of mutual destruction. Ball loss Pinchuk already came into conflict with the structures Kolomoyskogo. In other words, the opposition also has opposition.
    West, despite the active rhetorical pressure, also did not support the displacement of Yanukovych and was unwilling to quarrel with Russia, defending the Ukrainian opposition.

    As a result, obviously, there has been a compromise inside the elite. By the end of last week in the media hysteria subsided, channels Firtash Akhmetov and Pinchuk almost ignored the "march of millions" and appeared in publications Akhmetov revelatory article about the actual instigators of the massacre on Bankova. The police operation on the night of the 11th was also covered in a fairly sympathetic tones at least "Inter".

    In general, it's obvious that nothing is over. Maidan has done his job, maidan should leave. However, he showed, first, how large in the Ukrainian society protest potential. Second, how risky game Yanukovych was whirled right-wing radical opposition as "easy" opponent in the election. Third, the depth of the contradictions within the elite, which will inevitably worsen the economy contracting again, and sooner rather than later.

    Obviously, the default or the conditions of the IMF will be the trigger that will run much more massive wave of protests, while not only in the West and Centre, and (primarily) in the industrial southeast. Over Ukraine in general, looming shadow of the Egyptian script. Likely to retain power in this case, the current administration is not - the president's rating is only 16%.
    The fate of the Yanukovych administration before the election of 2015 will be decided on December 17 during a visit to Russia. Moscow can give credit and cheap gas, and then attempt to play on the contradictions within the Ukrainian elite, parallel supporting the expansion of their own business in Ukraine.

    First, however, always keep afloat surreal Ukrainian economy is impossible. Secondly, the current Ukrainian elite as it is, and the inability of the incapacity. Thus, the Ukrainian business to modernize industry not only can not, but not very keen. Third, long-term trends are extremely unfavorable. Advocacy and specific regional policy consistently pursued by the Ukrainian authorities, regardless of color, is steadily reducing the long-term conservation of the prerequisites for the Kremlin's influence. Population, on which he can rely, firstly, reduced physically - Ukrainian southeast steadily plundered in favor of the west and center, dies (so Zaporozhye - the world record for fastest population decline), while in the western regions of the population albeit very slowly, but growing. Second, the policy Ukrainianization gives its fruits - among young people consider themselves Ukrainians 75%, identity actively changing.

    In other words, as the current elite in power, Russian loans will go to pay for consumption in Lviv and K, and the profits derived from the Ukrainian industry reduce gas prices - by evropropagandu, museum construction famine (Pinchuk) content Klitschko Yatsenuk and expansion Empire Akhmetov.

    As a result, long-term goals of Russian politics - is the maximum attenuation Ukrainian offshore aristocracy regardless of clan affiliation, the maximum withdrawal from her assets, including the media, and the federalization of the country.

    Eugene Pozhidaev - international observer a REGNUM

    http://mediarupor.ru/blog/43261683072/%22Egipetskaya-ten%22-nad-Maydanom:-velikaya-noyabrskaya-oligarhiche?utm_campaign=transit&utm_source=main&utm_medium=page_0&pad=1

    Sponsored content

    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 10:36 am


      Current date/time is Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:36 am